Welcome to the Growth Hacking Culture Podcast. I'm your host, Ivan Palomino. This podcast is about thought-provoking ideas to scale up and growth hack performing and human-centric work cultures. My guests are experts on mindsets, skills and science behind work cultures. I hope you enjoy this episode. For decades, leadership narratives have often focused on this youthful energy and fresh perspectives. But what if the true key to exceptional leadership lies not in age, but in the accumulated wisdom and experience gained through life's journeys. And these elements are the ones that ignite the building of superpowers coming and midlife. And that's exactly the topic that I want to discuss today with my guests, Anist Hadad. He's a former tech CEO, turns his sweet executive coach. He's a senior advisor and McKinsey and an external facilitator at Deloitte University. I want to mention that one of the things that really impressed me about Anist is that when I read his previous book, The Eagle That Drunk Hopping Bird Nectar, I really enjoyed the fact that he takes the complexity of human psychology and he puts this into the context of narratives, stories, analogies that can help us better understand ourselves. And that's something that I enjoyed. And today, in fact, he has recently launched his book, Soaring Beyond Midlife, the surprisingly natural emergence of leadership superpowers in life's cycle health. And that's the topic of today. We want to discuss what really happens with these people that we call the old guys, the people that we sometimes believe that maybe they are not ready for change or maybe their best times was in the past and not today. Is that really true, Anist? Wow, I listened to you and it's so heartwarming to hear your introduction. And I'm very, very excited to be with you today. I think, so how does start with that? That's a big question to start with. So in other words, like the misconceptions about midlife, is that what you mean? Exactly. So we have this. And by the way, Anist, I have to highlight that even within us who are already in the midlife, we have to, we have a little bit of misconceptions that when we have the choice between somebody who is fully rounded with experience and has a certain level of skills, we sometimes get this cue that biases to choose the young guy who looks a little bit more fresh. Yes, yes. I would say there are a whole bunch of misconceptions, but I would say the one really biggest misconception, in my opinion, specifically in the area of leadership is the assumption that leadership is simply an incremental growth and development and unfolding over life. And like going through ones, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, it's all kind of similar in nature. We just become better leaders with more experience and things like that. So what I discovered, and around a year ago, I made a conscious decision to stop coaching people under 40, whether it's individuals under 40 or top teams under 40. So now I really focus only on C-suite teams made up of individuals all over 40, which is true for most C-suite teams. However, that decision came about because I was noticing more and more a qualitative difference between when we're in our 30s versus when we're at 40s and 50s. And by focusing on that area, I was able to really develop a lot more distinctions between those two ages, and that's what the book is about. I discovered in the process of writing it that some of the biggest leadership gurus that I have tremendous respect for and use their work like Jim Collins from Good to Great, Michael Keegan. What I discovered is that the vast majority of these writers developed their frameworks and models when they were still in their 30s. So we have a whole industry on leadership that's not making much of a distinction with midlife and kind of treating it all as kind of a continuum. So I think the biggest misconception is that and that if we can look at midlife specifically, there are things that are happening that reduce our effectiveness and there are things that are happening that increase our effectiveness in many ways. So making that distinction I think is very powerful. So you mentioned that there are things in our life that reduce our effectiveness. So what are these challenges that we have? Is it that we think a little bit slower when we are in the family? What type of things happen? We forget where we put our car keys, we forget our child's name, or we're in front of the board. You say, I know your name, don't tell me, I'll remember it. That's a cliché in fact, right? Or we are presenting to the board and we have on the screen a spreadsheet that's there showing all kinds of stuff and then we forget what in the world was the formula behind this one cell? I don't remember it and I used to know every single cell on the spreadsheet. That's the prefrontal cortex that's slowing down and that it peaks in our 30s and it begins slowing down early 40s. So the prefrontal cortex, that's where we feel like we're not thinking as fast, it's not as clear. And at the same time, we have the two hemispheres are talking more together, the right and left hemispheres, which means that we can connect the dots more easily. And this begins, this peaks around in our 50s. So that continues to grow for quite a while, which means that we can see patterns where we maybe didn't see patterns when we were a little younger, we can connect the dots more. So these are some of the cognitive changes and the risk is if we hold on to who we were when we were younger, then we become brittle because then we get angry. I don't remember what's in that spreadsheet, but I'm going to pretend like I do. I don't remember the details of that counter, but I'm going to pretend like I do because otherwise nobody will trust me or value me anymore if I start forgetting things. So we can become hardened like that if we try to hold on to the past. If we can move into these areas and embrace, the new things that are emerging, then we can look around, we can say, okay, I need, I need some of that fresh younger people around me that have prefrontal cortexes that are still at their peak. And I will focus more on the big picture, connecting the dots, finding the patterns, empowering my people to really find solutions. So it makes it easier to move into that higher level of leadership by recognizing that I'm doing it because that's how I'm growing as well. So let me summarize to see if I understood correctly. You already know that I'm a little bit of a geek. So I like the part when you explain with science what is happening, what is the transformation in our brain. So you are saying that the cognitive part may decrease, but it's compensated highly by the level of neural connections that we have in different parts of our brain. And potentially we have the possibility that what we call intuition, gut feeling, it comes because we dig in information, experiences that we have got. And we are able to better connect this. It's almost like we have exercised our brain to use a bigger space in our brain because at the end, the cognition part is peanuts in our brain. It's just a little small little thing. And we are able to exploit that wealth of information because we can connect disconnected the dots, gut feeling or intuition. Is that right? Yeah, that's absolutely right. And when you, so there are a lot of studies on this now. Most of the studies are from the last 10, 15, 20 years. So they're all recent. It's recent discoveries. There's another one that fits perfectly in what you're describing is that studies show that our intellectual empathy decreases. So we start to have trouble understanding what other people are thinking, what other, why are they doing what they're doing. So that's our intellectual empathy comes down. But our emotional empathy increases at midlife. So we get into situations where with the emotional empathy increasing, it makes it much easier to tap into intuition and see patterns and things like that because we're using more of our emotions than we did younger. We might have people, we might be in a situation where we go, wow, I really don't understand what's going on in your life or how you're making these decisions. But I get you, I get you, we start to find those situations. I remember that I had a peek in your reading your new book, Sorry Me On Bit Life. And you mentioned about three different challenges. So one of them is related to cognition. But then I remember something about, yes, we start the family effects and then there was a third one. Can you explain me a little bit more about this type of midlife challenges that middle face? So I call them. So I'd like to put this a little bit of a caveat. I'm focusing on midlife exclusively through the lens of leadership transformation and how that impacts us as senior executives, both personally and professionally. So I'm not looking at midlife in a much broader manner. From that lens, I identified three areas. You've mentioned a couple of them. I call these three women's of change of midlife. The first one is physiological. We're all aware of that. We're growing older. We notice that our bellies are getting a bit flabbier. We don't have the stamina that we used to have when we were younger. We can't go out drinking late at night and then the next day do a board meeting. Whereas when we were younger, maybe we could do that. We also start to experience things like menopause with women, andropause, health issues start to come up. And at the same time, so all of this I call the physiological wind of change. At the same time, we start to become aware that we could be living much, much longer than expected. And then we start wondering, what am I going to do after 65? I can see like my next 15 years, but what do I do beyond that? And it could be a very long time still beyond that. So these are all things that are going on in our lives. We become more introspective at midlife. There's a lot more soul searching, thinking about what's my purpose, what's my legacy. These subjects come up a lot more in midlife. So all of that I call the physiological wind of change. The neurological, we just talked about it, neurological wind of change. And the third one, which is actually the first one that I discovered, I call it the parental wind of change. And the fascinating thing there is that I've noticed so over the last decade or so, coaching senior executives, I've noticed that for many people, their leadership style reflects their parenting stage. So when we have younger kids at home, even up to teenagers, there's a lot of parenting energy that feels like it's KPI driven. If you do this, this will happen. If you don't do this, there's a lot of things that are going to happen. And you can see even companies where there is very driven in that way. Then you look at people whose kids have grown up and they've left home, they know that they can't parent like that anymore. So we all go through a process of adapting to our kids growing up and leaving home. In many ways, we grapple with the transition in terms of what is our value as a parent. If I can't tell you what to do, and I can't give you my advice and wisdom through all of my years of experience, and you don't want to hear it, and if I am not paying for the house over your head and your food and everything, what's my value as a parent? And we end up finding the new value. But I find that that mirrors very accurately where we are as senior executives, where we're beginning to move into, I really want to empower my people much more. And I want to build their future for later. And I don't want to be leading. I don't want to be managing like I was doing in the first half of my career. So I love that particular impact that that one has. It's almost like, if I understand you correctly, it's almost like when we are a younger leader, we are more focused on extrinsic motivation, motivating others by the carrot and stick, by whatever external factor. And then suddenly we realized that intrinsic motivation can have more sustainable results. That's a very, very good way of putting it. I think that we are aware of intrinsic motivation even younger, but we're relying on a mix and more of the external motivation, extrinsic motivation. And I think somewhere in midlife, we start to realize maybe things would be more effective with a 100% focus on intrinsic motivation. Because that's, I mean, with kids that grow up, that's where it happens. If I want to be a loving parent and caring parent, then it's all intrinsic motivation there. Indeed. I like how you just phrased that. I hadn't thought about intrinsic extrinsic. I think that's very accurate. Anise, I noticed that for reasons, if I think back about my personal journey, so at the beginning, I was full of hope, motivation, believing in myself because I just started my career. I believed that I was awesome because I came from a hard school to crack, university to crack. And then I was, it was showing results. So I was full of confidence about my capabilities. At the beginning, so we are talking about 20 to 40s. And suddenly in 40s, it becomes that we start realizing that the gap between our direct reports and ourselves is shortening in terms of age. And it might be that the next step is going to be to have a younger boss that may happen. So at any level of C-suites. And I was thinking that we have like a dip in terms of our trusting our capabilities, because we believe that our best years are behind. And that creates a lack of confidence for most of midlife leaders. One, is it a big problem? Is there a lot of leaders who have this lack of confidence or it was just me back then? And the other, the second question is how can we overcome that? Because if we start believing in our capabilities or what you say that our strength in the past was cognition. And now it is even, it's a better pool, a bigger pool than just that. But it is difficult to believe in that when we are in this environment. How can we overcome that? And is. The way I've seen that, the way I've seen that manifest the most generally is as we, so I've had many people that I've coached approaching 50 and beginning to feel I really only have one more shot at that big job, that big position that I was hoping for. I've gotten turned down twice. Maybe I should leave my company, go out do something else, because I really only have one more shot. Time is running out. I'm almost 50, time is running out. And there was a gentleman I coached a couple of years ago when he was 48 and we met up for coffee this week. He's 50 now. He just turned 50. And he said that the biggest thing he remembers from just, if we were just an ad hoc informal coaching session we had. And he says, when I told you that I was nearing 50 and I was really, I needed to find a way to break into this role that I really want. And then I, he says, you looked at me and you said, dude, you're only 50. You've got potentially another 30, 40 years ahead of you professionally that are productive. And, and I think that that reframing allows people to instantly relax so that your brain isn't holding on really tightly. That I'm almost 50. I really need to mix. I'm running out of time. My best years are behind me. I got to make this work. That kind of mindset, it just squeezes the brain and you can't really think clearly and you can't be truly creative because it's very fear-based. I love that by a simple conversation and tapping into that, you really can open up much larger. So today now, the guy has exactly the role that he had wanted to get back then. And when I met him two years ago, he thought he was going to have to leave the company. So he was looking at what kind of company, he's at the same company, but he ended up finding this much more senior role that he really wanted. And he's just blossomed. He's just really happy, joyful. It's fantastic to see that change in mid-life. It's like there's so much beauty still ahead. So if I understand correctly reframing this fear, I love that, in fact, because a lot of the people in their mid-lives who kind of grab all these opportunities that mid-life gives you is because they're limited by their fears. So either about not getting what they wanted to be as you just mentioned inside of an organization, then there is the fear. And what the hell am I going to do at 60? If I'm not in my job, people who have defined themselves by the context of what they are doing and not knowing that there is 10 million things that you can do. And it's not exactly your job that has defined you, but maybe the legacy that you may find afterwards. How would you answer to these people who defines themselves by the position, by this fear of not getting there, having short time, how would you help them to open up their options? Because it's not only about work. I mean, we feel fulfilled by more than that. Yeah. I went through that process and learned the hard way and it cost me, I can calculate the cost now. It cost me two million euro. When I was 47, I sold my company, I'd built a payment software company in France, grew to 30 countries, sold it in 2007 when I was 47. And I found myself in exactly that situation that you just described. I could only see one path for me. It's a tech entrepreneur. I started my career as a programmer. I came up as a techy project manager and all that, and then created this company. I was no longer involved with the technology, but I did file the patents. I wrote the patents myself. I ran, I had lawsuits against competitors and I won them based on the patents. And then, and so I thought after selling my company that that's my only, that's my only, I only have one shot. And that one shot in life is this tech entrepreneurship. So I put in around two million euros of what I had, that the win into trying to recreate new stuff, but I didn't like it. And I discovered that I liked people more than computers. I was more, I was more proud of people that worked for me, they became CEOs, CTO, CFOs. I was more proud of that than I was about the technology or the patents. So if I had let go earlier and said, I don't just have this one shot, I have a lot of different things. Let's go see where things will open up. I'd be two million euro more ahead today than I was. But I do believe that it's not about the two million euros is that you would be closer to wherever you wanted to be closer to a purpose that by the way, you have beautifully found today. I mean, how many people can claim I'm having out or so many books, working with the top consultants of the world, working with the top C levels of the world. I mean, if somebody had told you that story at 48, would you have believed it, Anis? No, no, I wouldn't have. No, I started believing that in my 50s. It took a number of years and then from 48, from 48, 49, I was already mentoring startup founders. And then by 50, I was already coaching and then became certified. And then I went through a period of cautiously wanting to be an apprentice and learning, so being in a beginner mode. And it was only the last, what, seven, eight years, 10 years coming out of that that I started to believe in the vision that you just described right now. It took way too long. I think that that was coming from holding on to the past and my old, I mean, one thing I remember being tech CEO is like, how am I going to be a coach, one among thousands of coaches when I was a tech CEO and I was while buying around the world, giving talks to banks and stuff, that that loss of prestige, the loss of identity and all that was quite difficult. And it's one of my regrets in life that I hadn't learned earlier about that letting go process. I only started meditating after that period. If I had been meditating before, I think I might have learned that. So I think a lot of people that are younger today that are in that, well, younger than me that are in their 40s and 50s today. I think because we are much more introspective than we were 20 years ago, many more of us practice some kind of mindfulness. I think it becomes easier. You mentioned something that is quite interesting. Maybe interesting for me. Okay, I don't know if it is interesting for everybody. This story of that in your personal journey, you went into the investigation of assessing if putting yourself in the learning mode, the apprentice mode. Well, that was part of your personal journey. But is it something that can help CEO's leaders to better find themselves if they just position themselves into the learning mode of something new in order to break this fear, this limitations that we have about the future? Is that necessary? Or is it can work, but it's not necessary? I think in a more complex world, the more complex world that we live in today, I think that is much more than a necessity. It's an obligation. We need to have that ability. The way I see that expressed is that the first half of our careers, we were valued on having the right answers to questions and having the right answers quickly and getting solutions done and all that. And then all of a sudden, at midlife and in complexity, what's more important is being able to say, "I don't know." And it's a very difficult thing for people to get used to. So one exercise I have with some of the slightly younger early 40s, late 30s, they just have them say, "I don't know," to every question. And it's very, very uncomfortable. And then they start laughing at some point and then they discover, "Okay, all right, yeah, I could probably do that." But they struggle with, "What will my team think?" If I say, "I don't know, they're not going to respect me." If I don't know the answers, my stakeholders aren't going to respect me. So all of that plays up. And that's where the beginner's mind comes in, as being able to say, "I don't know." Who knows? Who knows what to do when COVID came. Nobody knew what to do. Indeed, it is a little bit easier after the 50s to say, "I don't know," and to feel comfortable. Like, it's almost like we don't care any more about what others may be. You don't care so much. Yeah, that's exactly right. You don't like it, okay. So that is definitely a part of growing older, is that we can be ourselves and say, "Okay, even if you don't like it, it's okay." Indeed. But tell me one thing. So we have been talking about these superpowers that we get when we get into this period of time of mid-life. So what are these superpowers that we acquire? And how can we groom them? Because my belief is, not because you have a potential that you get it. It's not like you receive it from the sky. It is you need to do something about it. So what are these superpowers, Anis? So there are a few kind of superpowers that I mentioned earlier that they're connecting the dots and the emotional empathy and things like that. But I've framed them into six leadership superpowers. And the one at the center is actually the pinnacle of Jim Collins level 5 leadership model. I call that humility and iron will. And when we are senior executives, we got to where we are because of iron will. You can't move up through a large organization without iron will. However, with mid-life, our humility starts to grow. Our body is at the same. We have to let go of the young body that we had before, the younger me, the brain functioning differently. And so we still have the iron will, but now it's mixed with humility. There's also another thing. There are neurological studies that show we're more comfortable with paradox when we're in at mid-life. So rather than either I have iron will or I'm humble, we're able to say can I let me have both. I'll have iron will and humility so that comfort with the paradox or holding two opposing things is increased. So that's a key one. I have that at the center of my kind of graph of the of the sixth. Then another one is continual rebirth, where we become more accustomed without being completely comfortable. We become more accustomed to the fact that we have changed substantially throughout our lives. We can tell that we're not our younger self. We can tell that the younger person who liked, I don't know, dire straits or whatever doesn't want to listen to that anymore today. Our parenting styles back to that one, we can tell that we were a certain version of a parent, younger, another version as we grew and then yet another. So it's easier thisarily to understand that we're constantly reburthing. We're constantly reburthing. So that makes it easier to let go of prior identities. There are a few more that are there. I'm not sure you want to run through them all. Do you? It's up to you, but you know what? The one that you have mentioned is my favorite. Is this being comfortable with the paradox? Because I really feel it. I can really feel it that when we are younger, we tend to model either our journey or model what we perceive around the world. And we believe that we put experiences, contexts in boxes. One, in fact, it is possible to be two things at the same time. As long as you feel that you know yourself enough, as long as you have this self-awareness to know these are the limits, these are the certain borders that personally I don't want to cross. And there also, I have impression that it's not linear for a human being. There is some dips, maybe the first dip is at parties in terms of the set of beliefs that we have in life and then maybe another one at 50s. So, we tend to understand better that there is certain mathematical fuzziness in our life that is not just an equation that is simple. It is a complex equation where we decide the variables that count or not based on how much we know each other. And sometimes people miss that point how much I know myself and they get into work all their lives without taking just a small break to think, so what the hell did I want out of this life? Did I want just the money? Yeah, absolutely. I think in the first half, we get very good at dealing with complicated problems dealing with complications, very intricate environments and all that. And then in the second half, it's the complexity, which is a whole other level. There's a lot of fuzziness involved. And actually, there's another report, another study that I read on resilience on how our resilience scores increase in our 40s, 50s, and 60s, just naturally. And I think it comes from exactly this fact is that we've seen so much, we've gone through change, we've had to let go, who we were, all that stuff. And it just makes us more comfortable with change so that resilience becomes easier. There's another graph that matches that in a different way. You've heard of the happiness curve? It's a you? Okay, no, I was thinking about the one between money and happiness, the correlation plateauing after a certain amount of time. But no, that one. Now, this is just the happiness curve that's plotted on age. So early in your life, happiness is higher. As you age, it comes down. The bottom of that is at 47 or 48. And then it starts to pick up again. And I believe it's linked to all of these same things here, is that we needed to have answers in our professional lives of the first half. And in the second half, it's that ability to be in the I don't know mind and the fuzziness, the lack of a simple answer to a complex question. Yeah, so it's fascinating how that all kind of fits together. For me, it's almost like with the age, we know better how to manage expectations. When we are younger, we put like milestones saying, when I get that promotion, I'm going to be happier. When I get this amount of money in the bank, I will be happier. And then there is a moment we say, what the hell? We don't have to wait for something to be happy. Let's try to find it now with simplicity or just savoring the moment, right? We start believing in that stuff. Yeah, because we've had so many situations in our lives where we saw that when I did get the money, yeah, I was happy for a little while and then it was happiness came down again. When I got the promotion, yeah, it was happiness at the start and then it came down again. So we're aware that it's ephemeral, it's not permanent. But younger, we think that it will be permanent, I'll be forever happy. There is something that I was wondering. And maybe in some discussions with friends, I'm not a coach, so I have just some discussions with friends. The topic of not making the time for self-awareness to get to know yourself. And I was wondering, is it like a big problem in C-suite people during and especially for mid-life leaders? Is it a big problem? I don't have the time to to think about myself or I never make the time and I'm just going with the flow. Is it a big problem? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a very close friend and colleague who wrote a book, published a book a few years ago called The Art of the Retreat. And it's written in four senior executives. And it goes into a lot of detail on why that's a problem, not taking time to just sit. And so in his book, he says, you don't have to go off to a monastery for 10 days a month or something like that. You can just carve out time each day, a few minutes, but you need that time to just sit with your thoughts. And when we look at the complexity today, when we don't take that time, the amygdala is hijacked. Our brains are very focused on getting stuff done to where our brain can't relax and find these deeper solutions, these broader solutions. So it becomes even more critical today, I think. This is a story about hijacking the amygdala or being on autopilot. Is it something that if we keep on being on autopilot, what could be the consequences for leaders? I don't know. When I'm working with people and the areas where they struggle with the most seems to be kind of in those areas where they're not taking time, they're really focusing on the results that they had generated in the past and how forcing the results now through their teams. When they can take, oh, I've seen it in groups, when there is a conversation on something very complex, a decision that needs to be made or some kind of strategy conversation. And then you have people in the room in a C suite, they're bouncing, one person speaks, another, the CEO is sharing something, somebody else jumps in, the quiet people stay quiet, they don't say anything. And then when you put in a little bit of structure and you have each person speak individually without being interrupted, like a talking stick. And then you hear from everyone before the CEO responds, and you create an environment where the CEO, they share an idea, hear from each person, they don't respond to each person, they simply soak it up. It's fascinating to see the level of synthesis that comes at the end of that session. By the CEO, whose brain now is functioning in a much more effective way because it's relaxed, the amygdala isn't hijacking everything, it doesn't have cortisol going thinking about, okay, how do I respond to that? And then I keep getting cut off, why don't they listen to me? And by relaxing the brain, the whole room actually has a much deeper sense of understanding and synthesis. And that comes from being able to be quiet and take moments, allowing one person to speak, listening to them, which is very mindful, it's a very mindful practice, but it's in a group. Listening to the person not to prepare what I'm going to say next, but listening truly to understand. That's a big change, that's a big change. Anis, tell me one thing. So, and I mentioned it earlier that from time to time, it happens that our biases about midlife people, I don't know if to call it biases of age-a-ism are important. Even when we are fifties, we think that if we're going to be only around young people, that's the best. There is going to be ignition of ideas and things are going to happen instead of having half of my team being 50 plus. So, how can a CEO or any leader fight against these biases, their personal biases, and also the biases on others? What a great question. I think there's part of the way I look at that is what you just talked about our own biases about ourselves. And that the leader can work on. It's like finding, that's what my whole book is about. It's all the value, that new value that comes out and being a midlife. The age-a-ism or the biases of younger people toward older, definitely an issue and vice versa. So, from the older people versus younger, and I think what's important there is to understand the qualitatively different places that we're at. So, it's the diversity of different ways of thinking. A midlife brain is not the same as a 30-year-old brain. And being able to see value in that diversity, especially for complex environments, because you need that diversity for that. I think there's another part that is institutional, structurally institutional, where we've been brought up to think that at 65, we retire. And that sets a date. It's just a line in the sand. And it causes us to start thinking, okay, we're going to work until I'm 65 and then no more work after that, which is not real. Institutional, we've encouraged that. Companies have retirement, mandatory retirements in some parts of the world. Some parts of the world, it's not allowed. But there's a distinct preference for younger people. And I think institutionally, governments are going to, over the next 10 years or so, we're going to see much more of governments encouraging people to stay working much longer, simply because western world governments with social security and all that can't cover everyone retiring at 65 and living for another 40 years, or 35 or whatever. So I think that's going to be a huge impact once the government starts to really encourage working longer. And that'll change the age of some throughout, because it becomes structural. Indeed. Anis, so let me recap a little bit what we have touched upon. So we have talked a little bit about the challenges that happen by midlife. We have talked about these superpowers that we acquire when we become midlife, midlifers. We become old people. We have discussed about also these personal challenges that we may have about lacking of belief in our in our capabilities. And sometimes we miss these opportunities to take these opportunities to accept that we have grown in a different manner. We have talked heavily on that. And I guess that when you started writing sorry in beyond midlife, I mean, I guess that beyond the simple discussion that we have today, people can find like real roadmaps in order to structure the person that they want to be. It's almost like having a discussion on the with a personal coach through the book, where we can map out what is our next step to really appropriate ourselves with this opportunity that midlife offer to us. So definitely, I would recommend for the audience to buy the story beyond midlife. So today, right now it is possible to to have to subscribe to be in the waiting list. The book is going out the 14th of June. Is it is that correct? And is yeah, exactly. You can go to Amazon and then the thing is on because you can pre book it right now. Yep, absolutely. And maybe by the time the listeners are listening to this, it's already the 14th of June. So it will I will make sure that of that. By the way, I wanted to ask you and that's a personal curiosity. So in your personal life, given that what you have achieved and and the things that you did that 48 in order to define the person that you are today. And I have mentioned pre recording that I really admired the work that you are that you are doing. You are doing it with a lot of gen mity, a lot of it's almost like somebody told you that's your mission, my man. So what else are you planning to achieve as part of your own roadmap in the rest of your journey? Oh, wow. I think, well, one area is there's some immediate areas I can see pretty clearly, immediate, I mean, that will unfold over the next five years. One of them is is increasing joyfulness. I'm finding that in latter mid I'm 64. So I'm actually at the opposite side of mid life. And there's a lot more joy. There is an ability to laugh or at the things we do as human beings. I'd like to weave that in more with the team, the top team coaching so that they are also laughing about things. I think that's a powerful area. Another area that I'm very intrigued by and I'm beginning to see, but not yet clear enough is I can see individuals at mid life how they transform. I can see the three winds have changed, the impact it has on all them, etc. I can see them in a room, a group of colleagues, C-suite colleagues in a room where each of them is going through that process. What I'm beginning to see and I'd like to get more clarity on is how a bunch of people that are going through this at the same time, how does that impact the team? And is that a leveraging effect on team effectiveness, where team effectiveness dramatically increases? So I see that and I could get it intuitively. I haven't yet seen how specifically that'll happen. I want to crack that. I want to discover that. And I think beyond that, the ripple effect, you want to validate the ripple effect. And the multiplying effect, that if we're a group of eight, nine people all going through midlife, our own midlife transformations, how does that multiply our impact as a team in terms of team effectiveness? And then the next area beyond that one, as I've progressed through the '60s and then start getting into the '70s, neuroscience is starting to discover so much more about how the brain works later in life, that we still don't know. There are things we're going to discover in the next few years that will redefine what we think of our '70s and '80s. And I could see another book coming out at that time that is looking at what I discover going through that process. So that's kind of my best answer to your question. And is that looks like a very beautiful road map. Of course, part of the road map is going to be that you will be invited for your next book. We need to discuss it because it has become like really a pattern that now when you get a new book, I have to read it. And it was really lovely to spend time with you. It was amazing. And thank you very much for sharing your own experiences, sharing about the launch of your new book. It was exceptionally great. Thank you, Anis. Thank you. I love the session. Thank you very much.
