[MUSIC] >> Good morning, Joe Sportsman, 5-9 of the fan band, and I'm standing in the LA Francesca, Canada. An incredible performance, not over yet, by the way. >> Third place game coming up on Saturday at the Copa America, but losing to nothing yesterday in the semifinals too. The number one ranked FIFA nation defending Copa America champion. Defending World Cup champion that employed the world's best player. Maybe the best player that ever lived. So it's a pretty impressive performance in an overall sense, despite a two-nothing score line. I don't know how you like to ingest sports, Daniele. So I have two young children, and the eldest is starting to play now a little more competitive sports, but when I watch his sports, it's just like hey, put forth a great effort and boy, individually, if you shine and you feel great about yourself, the conclusion of your hockey game, well done. We get to go out for ice cream, of course. That's not how I like to consume my, I don't know this is not, it's not club sports. But my professional sports, I like to, we've done all season long with the Blue Jays. Say, hey, we'll recognize the great things, hope for the great things. That's way more fun to talk about when they're great. But when it's bad and when it's not going well, you can point it out. Now, it's been such a surprise the way this Canadian national team has performed. One, in the run up to the World Cup, topping the hockey cap World Cup qualifying table. Making it to their first World Cup in over 30 years and then scoring their first World Cup goal, but the disappointment of losing all three matches, it's just, it's been such a whirlwind. Like that was last winter, right, like two years ago. Two winters ago, whatever, again, and here we are, not that long, removed from that and getting out of the groove for the first time, first victory at a major tournament. Not on stage, yep. Yeah, outside of the World Cup, but yeah, the co-op of America, their first victory there is debut taunts and great work. Yeah, and win and a penalty kick, shoot out to advance the 7-5, it's all great, great, great. I really wanna get to the point honestly, and I've done a lot of criticizing of the Americans and their coverage of this tournament and how they've liked to denigrate Canada to lift up the American performance, but whatever. I like the fact that they're at a point in that nation's soccer history where they can start ripping people. They can talk about replacing the manager and Greg Berrholt, they're needing to be removed and hey, how come they didn't perform the way they were expected, any individual performances? Are we at that place with the Canadian men's soccer team, like can I be slightly critical of what I'm watching? I think you'd be slightly critical, I think that's fair. I don't think we're full blown US territory yet, but I think we're getting there. And to the credit of the players in the team, Ben, they want it to be that way. I actually admire, that's one of my biggest takeaways is that they hold themselves to even a higher standard than what it seems like the general public does at this point, which is great. It's a great problem to have, man. And it really is. I think it's different, too, when you're talking about if we're talking about being critical of different players, and I'll get to who I'm gonna be critical of in just a second. Oh, I know where you're going. I'm bearing the lead. But yeah, it's one thing to talk about players who honestly play in Major League Soccer, as opposed to in one of the big four leagues in Europe, right? I think there's it. And more and more of these MLS players are being noticed internationally. And Ishmael Kone, the most recent guy to sign a deal, he's going to Marseille. I mean, this is happening time and time again. I mean, last, I think the World Cup was Alistair Johnson was around the time that he was picked up by Celtic. So this is happening more and more. One of the big selling points and reasons for optimism around this Canadian team obviously is Alfonso Davies, who's one of the elites of the elite playing for the biggest, one of the biggest clubs and could be moving on to an even bigger club in the world. He's incredible. And yeah, he didn't perform as well as you would have hoped in this tournament. But I think tactically, he was maybe put in a spot that wouldn't allow him to be involved in the offense as much as you would have liked, as much as we've seen in the run up to World Cup and scoring the one goal in the World Cup. Jonathan David, second in Liga scoring behind a little guy I like to call, Killian Mbappe. Right? Like behind him, like it's a, it's Killian Mbappe and immediately behind him, Jonathan David and did score one of the two goals Canada scored in this tournament. But the number of opportunities he had and the number of horrible touches that he had time and time again in the attacking third of the field, left me scratching my head a little bit. So again, like not the foremost expert on soccer tactics, I've seen enough soccer games though to tell you that's not what you're hoping for out of one of the guys that plays in one, one of the best leagues in the world, not in the French League. I mean, it's not, it's the Spanish League, I think is depth of field, but like at the top of the Spanish League, it's obviously very, very good in the top of the French League is very good for PSG. It's not the Premier League where all the teams are very good, but it's, it's up there with the Italian League. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he, again, he's, he could be playing for Chelsea next year. Yeah, I know. Yeah. I know, I know, Mickey, I was listening a lot yesterday, not crazy about that idea. Yeah. And honestly, it's hard to blame him watching not just yesterday's performance, but throughout the entirety of the Copa America, this is supposed to be one of the world elite finishers like frankly, agreed and he didn't look that way. Okay. So there's layers this one, when we talk about true elite, pure goalscores, the, the most prolific number nine's in the world, either aren't a great deal with them. Like we can, we can sort of rhyme them off on one hand almost in this sense. I mean, we've got Harry Kane, we've got Killian Mbappe, we've got Erling Holland, who plays for Norway, which we don't get to see very often in international competition. We've got Romelu Lukaku beyond that. The traditional number nine's in international soccer, not the most, it's not the deepest class of talent that you can rhyme off of these guys that are just pure serial goalscores. You could probably even throw in the two Argentines, quite frankly, in, in Martinez and Alvarez, because both of those guys are obviously have a proficiency when it comes to finishing opportunities. Jonathan David's usage, this is where I'll come to his defense lately. His usage was interesting. I certainly had the same opinion and take away as you, which is, okay, you got to finish more of those opportunities. You're supposed to be this world class striker, this world class finisher. Guess what? That entails putting the ball in the net on occasion. You have to finish and capitalize on the top. He scored one. He did. It's one out of how many opportunities? Lots. Lots. So you have to convert and make sure that you do take advantage. That being said, this isn't actually something I hope we see a sort of tinkered with and maybe a shift in philosophical usage for that player in Jonathan David. I really disliked having him and Kyle Laren in tandem up front. I think that actually took more away from Jonathan David's offensive opportunities than it did add to it because even watching the game last night, Kyle Laren is the one that was being treated and utilized more as a traditional striker as a true number nine, playing high up the pitch versus Jonathan David, who was sort of, I don't know, being deployed as a quasi attacking midfielder who is still being counted on to score goals. I think that is a tricky position to put him in when all he's ever known is to be that serial marksman up front to just, hey, when the ball comes in, score, be selfish and try to score goals. Part of that is him adjusting to a role. I'm not dismissing the fact that he failed to finish because that was evident. The lack of finish was evident. This kind of also plays partially into Alfonso Davies and how he performed. There's an element of sacrifice that Davies had to endure playing a more traditional left back defending role as opposed to having the license and the freelancing ability that he had under John Herdman that is gone now. But guess what? The team performed better. The team still performed better. David, I understand, I think coming out of this, was his form great? No. One that deserves the most criticism, probably because he had the most opportunity to impact the outcome of games and he failed to do so by not delivering on what he's supposed to do, which is score, but there is an added caveat that the usage was different. It was different and there was an element of him sacrificing a little bit of that traditional striker usage and opportunity that you traditionally find him not trying to make excuses. I just think that is important context because it was noticeable throughout the tournament. I'll take your word for it. I have no idea. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. That was part of the man. Here's what I saw. A guy that when the ball came to him, it wasn't just the lack of finishing, it was like, oh, here comes the ball and there it goes, like there goes the opportunity, like it's not just the finishing. Right? There was a couple of times where he could have finished, but it was like he didn't get into the place where it was about to be finished. Yeah, it just looked like, I don't know, it's wearing still toes. Like did he not have boots? Did he, I'm with you, did he look like the world-class striker that has been advertised for you? No, he didn't. Well, that's what I'm saying. Absolutely not. Yeah. And I guess Alfonso Davies didn't either, but we've seen him look at his best. We saw him score in the World Cup and we understand like that part, I can understand when I'm told, yeah, he's playing traditional left back and boy, it's hard to argue with the results defensively for Team Canada because they only scored two goals. They got all the way to the semifinals of the Copa America. So maybe that was a good trade-off for this team to make to put him in a more defending role, but then you need like your other guys that are supposed to score goals to do that thing. And I didn't know that. Well, this part of that is, A, there's pressure on Jonathan David to do it because if you look at the rest of the roster, you're asking yourself, okay, who else is going to do it? You're like, frankly, they were extremely fortunate that Jacob Schaffelberg emerged. Like nobody really coming into this tournament, obviously looked at Jacob Schaffelberg. And it's like, maritime messy baby, fire yourself up, can't wait to watch maritime messy. That was never going to be a topic of conversation heading into this tournament. So everybody's pointing to, all right, where are the goals going to come from? Jonathan David and probably secondarily you're like, okay, Kyle Laren, maybe Davey's because of his sheer offensive talent that he possesses is going to find a way to score and impact the game that way. But I think there's an added pressure there. It also speaks to they need to develop more talent, like they need more quality in the side to help provide service into those key areas and to then have better finishing options. Not that it's just all on the foot of one guy. And again, he did not perform well, but I think it also highlighted where they do lack depth. That's another thing that is obviously a major topic of discussion today coming out of that game last night. Yeah, I just, I want to yell, I want to rightly get mad when like not yesterday's a bad example because obviously it's the number one FIFA rank nation, the defending World Cup champions. But I want to be, I want to have the bar be high enough that you can be critical when they go underneath it. Like the, again, I don't want to take everything that the Americans do and emulate that. But I like, that's how I like to ingest my sports. And it's about being passionate, it's about being honest and truthful about what we're watching. But truthfully, it's an incredible accomplishment for this team to be even in the realm of these conversations. What kind of conversation do you think John Hurdman's having right now? So for the uninitiated, wondering how it's going for John Hurdman in his debut season in MLS with Toronto FC, started off strong, but now they're seven, three and 13, they've lost six straight. They haven't won since May 18th. Are you still hanging on to a playoff spot or are they out of a playoff spot now? I think just fell out of a playoff spot recently, but until recently they were in a playoff spot. And this is the end of his dead last last season. So it's all, you know, it's all relative. By the way, you can watch them take on for Jeff C tonight, Tim Hortons Field tickets still available in the Canadian championship. So this is a guy that, man, he was the bell of the ball. It was like the players, they scored the goals and Alfonso Davies, I think was the headline item, but like not far below it was John Hurdman. What's the difference between team candidates of old and the team candidate that qualified for the World Cup and the confident John Hurdman and the player said the same. And he maybe took it a little too far before the Croatia game and yeah, yeah, yeah. And there were some criticisms of him again, like, I don't know anything about tactics, like tactically, and then after all the discourse around this team financially and the way they're set up for years to come, he said, you know, thanks, but no, thanks, I'm off. And I guess he had also coincided with this opportunity at Toronto FC. Since then, again, like you started off well with Toronto FC and the bar is low considering where they were a year ago and the story is not totally written for him there, but Jesse Marsh has stepped in in under two months, like totally resurrected a team that looked abysmal in the nation's league final before the Copa America scoreless draw against freakin France. Yeah. This is the number two FIFA ranked nation all the way to the semi final of the Copa America. How do you think John Hurdman's feeling today? Frankly, I think he's probably feeling a little bit relieved. He probably is and I think deep down, he does want to see candidates succeed and he wants to see that team perform well. Yeah. You think people are like, there's too much innate goodness in people. There's no way he's rooting for this. That's why I'm wired. I am wired that way. There's just no way. There's just no way. And that's in my DNA. I do think though he's probably relieved that there's there's a large part of him sitting there saying, Oh boy, thank goodness it ended there because it would have made it would have in a way devalued or diminished everything he had done up until that point. I think it's already been diminished a little bit a little bit a little bit, but you think about where the program was when he first stepped in, but he spent a decade with that program and and not just them. He obviously look at the work he did on the women's side like his his resume, the legacy that he has established within Canadian soccer is cemented. That guy is one of the most impactful and influential figures when it comes to the sport in this country at the national team level because he like he literally is largely responsible for helping elevate not just one program, but both programs on the Canadian soccer side with the men and the women. So I don't think I don't think that is much of a concern, but sure he's a human being like he he leaves his job. And as much as you want to say, yeah, you know, leave on great terms. I'm happy. I want to see them succeed all that year. Sure. There's a bitterness when you see somebody stepped in right away and within the span of six weeks goes from being, okay, this team is going to have a long road ahead of them to they're in the semi final of a major international tournament. So of course, he's probably relieved, but yeah, I do assume the DNA goodness and a lot of people that I really do and you know, he's a I'm sure he has friendships with lots of the players took a lot of his staff with him though, Toronto FC is that Canadian? I got I I if you got John Hartman and he would never admit this, maybe even not to his family, but like you just like hooked him up to a lie detector test. There's just no chance he was pleased this punch to see Canada do what they've done in the very brief moments that they've been under the control of Jesse Marsh. Because frankly, he's doing things differently. Like the the squad is what is it like only 15 of the 26 players on the squad are the same as the world. He's making different selections. He's making different decisions tactically and you can quibble about the Alfonso Davies thing in a defending role, but results scoreboard, baby, didn't allow much and and look pretty stout defensively. Maxime Cropo was outstanding in the entire tournament. I'm sorry, like I did I assumed the opposite in people like I just I'm a very cynical person when it comes to this type of stuff and I wouldn't blame him again, like he's this. He at the first off ramp took it. He did take it and and part of it was I'm I think he thought that this program maybe reached its heights and maybe overshot its skis a little bit or out over their skis overshot what they were supposed to do and perhaps were headed through a fallow period plus the uncertainty financially and yada yada yada yada yada. How can I get out of this at the perfect time still with the perception that I am the miracle worker that I appeared to be leading this team of the World Cup. And at the moment, I thought, man, what a what a great move by him. If you're just in it to to again cement your legacy and leave your last place on a high note do like the Barry Sanders retiring before it all goes sour. But yeah, in retrospect, maybe we should be hung around a little bit. Yeah, maybe I don't I don't know I just feel it's certainly at the end it felt like it felt like, you know, things everything gets stale coaches get hired to are hired to be fired or or for it to end in a divorce and it's inevitable. For the most part that ended amicably, you know, I even on the personnel front, you're right. It's a vastly different team. But if we actually even think to the World Cup in 2022, how many of those guys the Koneys, the Schaffelbergs, you know, Crapo wasn't even really an option because he got hurt, unfortunately. But you know, they're at a different stage like it's it's so it's it's not an apples apples comparison in terms of even the deployment and usage of the players or even the accessibility to different types of talent. I just think in general, it had run its course and it was time to move on. And I feel like he can again, his legacy to me at least is cemented and solidified based on what he did over such a prolonged period of time. But yeah, there is a natural there is a natural bitterness and I I generally speaking, I am now I am incredibly cynical when it comes to a lot of these things. But in this instance, for whatever reason, I will say it couldn't have come out of worst time for John Herman because his team is in a free fall mode right now. So it's not like he can even say, you know, he could step out of podium and answer a question and be like, well, you know, but everything's great, like we're doing great. They're doing great. We're so happy for everybody. He's sitting there. He's like enduring loss after loss after loss after loss. And then this team is all of a sudden come around and they're having a remarkable run of results. Sure. It's got to sting a little bit. It's just that's human nature. That's human nature. For sure. I would think it's a little different than the next nurse scenario where he's kind of forced out of his role of a team Canada. Was he though? Well, yeah, was he was I think that he could have done that the Sixers thing and the team Canada. I think he could have done. Why not? Why not? This goes back to the reason that you don't think there was pressure on him from the Philadelphia 76ers to give up team Canada. No, no, I don't think they care quite frankly. I really don't think they care that I don't think they care. That one actually I think speaks more to why the hiring and the decision to bring him on was a failure to begin with and why that was a misstep in the process of trying to build that program because he was the head coach of the Toronto Raptors. Give me a break. Give me a break that sort of got that I hated that hiring when it happened. I really despised that move in the moment. I I said as much and I have said as much in the past and I'm I think I'm very pleased that they they've got the right guy now because I think Jordi is the right guy. Jordi Fernandez, but Nick nurse. No, never felt it never felt like he was the right choice and it was only more of a ceremonial hiring because he was the head coach of the Toronto Raptors and so sure yeah, I was not surprised in the slightest when he got dismissed by the Raptors that then in short order he was no longer the head coach of the Canadian men's national team. Well, they ended up with the right guys you mentioned, like Jordi Fernandez at the helm and then ends up with an NBA head coaching gig shortly thereafter as well. Like, yeah, he was the Canadian brass properly identified the next guy gunner and I actually we spoke to him a few weeks ago and I asked him the question. How important was it for you in any discussions you had regarding a head coaching job to make it clear that you wanted to coach Canada that you were committed and that was part of your vision and he said it was very important and my agents made it abundantly clear to every team, not just the nets, but every team that if they were going to hire me, part of the deal is I want to coach this team and I think that's that's important. So there's a way you can play that leverage card like if Nick nurse, he's a big, he was a big enough name that if he said, no, you know what, I still want to be committed to this. I'm still interested. Canada would not have had the stones to fire him. That's for sure. He would have been the coach if he really wanted it. He still would have been the coach. I almost positive of that, man. I really am. Yeah. I mean, there was not a ton of conversation in that regard when it happened, but I could see the scenario where what you're saying is the reality anyway, Canada and the United States playing tonight in an Olympic tune up 10 30 p.m. on sports net one or you can stream it on sports net plus, well, we'll probably revisit this maybe tomorrow. Well, obviously after the game, we'll revisit it. But this is obviously a Canadian team that finally has done it. They've punched their ticket to an Olympics for the first time since Sydney in 2000. The golden generation has finally arrived. Jamal Murray is going to play for this team. He wasn't there at the FIVA World Cup and you understand why because of the miles and the tires and yada, yada, yada. But here they are about to go to the Olympics where they're not going to be the favorite. The Americans every time they field a representative team, they're going to be the overwhelming favorites. Canada just beat them though without like some of the big, there was also not bums at the FIVAs, right? All NBA players. Yeah. Right? That's a whole NBA roster. Yeah. And Dylan Brooks is of the opinion that that loss kind of, yeah, maybe was the final play from LeBron James and Steph Curry to say, Hey, you know what, we're going to Paris, baby. We're going to be part of this team percent of us to try and bring home a gold medal. Where are we on the potential rivalry between these two nations that we were like waiting and hoping for to manifest itself on the grandest scale? Well, I feel like it's, it's starting to build. I do feel like Canada needs to get, they need to get another one in a meaningful spot. They need to get another win over this team in a meaningful spot. And heck, I would even qualify today as a semi meaningful spot because it's a home game for the United States. It's a sold out building at T-Mobile in Vegas. It's their first game with this collection of players and this talent all coming together to try and go win another Olympic gold medal. And for Canada, the stakes are high because they only have two exhibition games, like the United States is going to play five of these, Ben. So they have ample opportunity to kind of just slowly progress their way through this and gradually get to the point where they're kind of building and working on certain aspects of their game to get, you know, to be as sharp as they can be going into Paris. And for Canada, they've only got two opportunities. So you're, they're approaching this like a real full-blown major competition. Like there is. That's what Dylan Brooks is saying. There are stakes and there should be because anytime and if you, as if you needed more stakes, you know, the fact that there's a limited prep time and they have fewer exhibition games than almost any other team, but it's the United States of America and it's, you know, LeBron and Steph Curry. Now Katie's not playing, but you just look across at what that bench is going to look like for the United States with all the litany of NBA all-stars and future Hall of Famers that they have. Sure. Like how do you not get fired up for that in that environment in a sold-out building where they're kicking off their, their Olympic campaign in earnest, trying to chase another their fifth straight gold medal in the men's competition. I certainly hope this becomes a massive rivalry. Like we love it in hockey, obviously, when it's Canada and the United States. And it's just, it's like a such a staple of international competition. And I hope on the basketball side with the men's team and the fact that we have really like equal amounts of NBA talent on each side in terms of the sheer volume of players, hopefully now that puts us in a position where we're trending towards us being a real, real competitive international rivalry. That'd be something, even in a, in a, in an, an exhibition game for Canada to beat the United States and run up, I mean, they may not meet in the Olympics, right? Like they're in separate groups and it would take a knockout stage meeting. And Canada in a very difficult group. So this, this might be all we have between these two teams as we head towards the Paris Olympics. All right. When we come back, Blue Jays lose again as bullpen very bad and the offense only has three hits. That's secondary. The guy that maybe has the most trade value was really good. You say Kikuchi, career high, 13 strikeouts yesterday. We'll talk to John Marosi of MLB Network Next as the fan morning show continues. Ben Anis, Danielle A. Franceski, Sportsnet 590, the fan. Unrivaled insight, analysis and opinions on all things Blue Jays, Blair and Barker. Be sure to subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, you say Kikuchi was real, real good. He departed trailing in the baseball game, but he watched his team jump ahead of the San Francisco Giants yesterday, 3-1 thanks to a three-run home run off the bat of Ernie Clemente. One of only three hits for the Blue Jays. And then he watched Blue Jays bullpen do its thing and God, Nate Pearson was not bad. A big strikeout of Matt Chapman, even Trevor Richards got squeezed a little bit and the game tying base hit up the middle, like eggs of velocity of like, it felt like three miles an hour. Off a glove in a center field and then wild pitch ends it as the Blue Jays drop to 41 and 50 with the four three loss in game one of this series. All right, time now for our insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom visit Don Valley, North Lexus.com. Today's insider, John Marosi of MLB Network. Good morning, John. Good morning, Ben and Danielle A. I will try to bring some positivity to the conversation. I know it was a tough ending for those who stayed up late to watch the game last night and certainly, I would say this, Jesse Marsh and Team Canada, great job at the co-op. I know it's a tough ending last night, but no, no shame in losing to the great Messi. And I'll say this, I, if only, if only US soccer could hire a manager as great as Jesse Marsh. Oh, wait, he was available to you at the one point in time. Okay. That's separate conversation. My friend. You're in clop now. Okay. So that they have. Right. Yeah. Sure. So, so basically that is where the standard is. This is very much a binary choice. Either you hire clop or you're going to listen to people like me and many US soccer supporters saying, yeah, Jesse Marsh, pretty great manager. Why didn't you hire him? That would be probably how the next couple of years are going to go ahead of, at a 2026. Yeah, that's a shame. We feel badly about that or don't. Anyways, we appreciate your condolences. Thank you. Um, yeah, the team candidate can have moral victories in soccer because we're not that far removed from them losing, what, eight one to Honduras in a, in a game that got them into the last stage of World Cup qualifying, not, yeah, not even qualifying for a World Cup. So, yeah, making a World Cup and then making the semifinals of the Copa America and losing to nothing to the best team in the world, yeah, like no shame in that. But there is shame and is what the Blue Jays have done, basically all season long. Your transition by the way, well done, well done. Thank you. It's, it's, it's a big time shame for the Blue Jays who, as I mentioned, dropped to 41 and 50 and now we're left to, to think about what could be at the trade deadline. And one of the most valuable pieces, I would say, that is clearly going to be on the trade block with a, one of his best outings of his career yesterday. You say kikuchi with the career high 13 strikeouts. He's appending for the agent and get it. He's a rental player and the air is still four, but, but what kind of value do you think that the Blue Jays could expect in return in a kikuchi trade? He is to me one of the more intriguing players on the Jay's roster right now. He would, I believe, bring back good value. Now, are you going to get a top 10 prospect in the industry? Probably not that high, but I would say you should be able to get at least a top 80, top 90 prospect in the industry in a trade for kikuchi because enough teams right now have some rotation questions and would be, should be willing to give up some prospects to achieve that. Look no further last night than what's gone on with the Dodgers. They lost 10-1. Bobby Miller was out of that game early. They also yesterday put Glastonol on the IL where he joins Kershaw and Bueller and Yamamoto. So there are teams, even great ones right now, like the Dodgers, I would still call them a great team even though they've had some injuries. So that to me is emblematic of where a lot of the industry is right now, the New York Yankees. They need some pitching help and you look at kikuchi and where I think he would fit very well on that staff as well. So there are a lot of teams right now that need help in terms of this area. I think it's becoming clearer. I don't know if the Jays have necessarily declared as much to the entire industry, but it's fairly apparent to me that at least for their pending free agents that they're going to be available just based on where they're playing and the circumstances of the division here in last place, I think it's obvious to a lot of us now where they will go eventually. Maybe they wait until after the all-star break to actually formally make that declaration to other teams. I think to that extent, if you acknowledge that the Jays season is already heading towards becoming sellers anyhow, last night did include a fairly significant silver lining in the performance of one of their highest value trade assets. Yeah, Career High, 13 strikeouts, John, for you, say, kikuchi and what was his first quality start since June the 6th. So perfect time for him to turn the page and get back on track after he had a bit of a hiccup in June with his production over a five-start span there. But certainly he is one of the more valuable trade assets on the market and arguably the most valuable trade piece that the Jays have at this particular point in time as it relates to expiring contracts. I want John to focus on Boba Shep for a second because he had another rough night yesterday where he goes over four with three strikeouts. This has been a steady theme all season long. We've seen the power sort of dissipate. We've seen the average plummet. He's in below 200. It's so far in July. He hit below 200 in June. Given how he's played, is it maybe the most pragmatic thing, John, that the Blue Jays end up holding Bo and saying, you know what, we have to head into 2025 with him going into a contract year. I think that's exactly what's going to happen. I would be surprised at this juncture if certainly if Bo were traded Vlad, maybe we'll mention if Seattle gets really desperate for offense, they're the one team that I could see being a good fit for Vlad, but I agree with you on Bo. He hasn't played well enough to keep up his value high enough to where a trade would make sense to where you'd be able to find good middle ground. Now, if there's a team out there that wants to pay the Jays for Bo, like he's going on his way to win a batting title, and then they believe that his August and September are going to be all-star level again, then maybe that conversation happens, but I think it's unlikely. That's the word. That's the best word I can find right now in terms of a Bo trade at the moment, is just it is very unlikely. He hasn't played well enough to create that level of interest, and I think a lot of teams in the industry who might otherwise, in a normal year, if Bo were healthy and productive, have interest in him, they right now are more focused on starting pitching needs. Again, the one thing you might say is, "Okay, if the Dodgers, for example, are talking with the Jays about Kakuchi, could they make it a larger deal and bring in Bo maybe?" That's plausible, but again, I don't think it's terribly likely. I think he has not played well enough to really validate that level of interest, and to your point, I think that it makes sense to say, "Listen, Bo, we're going to take into the off-season, and we're not going to trade you because your value is down." We believe that after maybe repositioning some of the assets on this roster in the next couple of weeks, that they can make a better run at this thing in the first half of 2025 and believe that Bo is going to be a better player next season in the first half of this year, which is fairly low bar, to clear, I would say. That to me is where I think the big picture of this team lands, which is the most likely thing is that you get through the end of July, Vlad and Bo are probably still on this roster. Kakuchi probably isn't, Justin Turner may not be in terms of trading your pending free agents, maybe Richards, to your point, probably pitch better last night than what the final state line indicates. There are some players that could bring back a little bit of value, and then you reposition your roster at the deadline, you bring up even more kids in the minor leagues, see what you've got, and then get stronger and better for next season. I think if you're looking at trading anybody who is under contract beyond 24, I think we're at a place where it's easier for me to see a Kevin Gossman or Chris Bassett trade at this moment than a Bassett trade just because of the market dynamics and where the interest is. What is the precedent for, and the season's not over for Boboshedd, and he had a similar type start in 2022 to his year before rebounding the last couple of months, but it wasn't this bad. This is horrible. It's worse than it was at this point where he was bumped down to seventh in the order in July of 2022 before rebounding and leading the American League in hits. There's no, there's no George Springer conversation about him like, oh, okay, like the decline is happening. He's 26, obviously. This has been one of the best hitters in, in baseball over the course of his entire major league career. There's no obvious injury like Cody Bellinger would be, I guess, the example where it's like, this is a guy that won an MVP, and then a couple of years after that in 95 games at an OPS of 542 before eventually rebounding last year with the Cubs and, you know, at least of an above average offensive player here, but like if Boboshedd does this for a whole season, I guess they're a precedent for a guy who was one of the elites in baseball in hitting, like having an outlier season where you're just like one of the worst players in baseball offensively. You know, it's a great question. There's not really a similar one that comes to mind for me where it happens this quickly, and then it bounces back, for example, the very next year. I'm still a believer in his ability. I do think that when you look at the larger context of the season, I go back to what he told Hazel May recently about him not being surprised if he were to be traded. That to me was a very telling quote that he shared with Hazel on that, because you wouldn't typically hear a player who's still under contract for another season and has been viewed as a face of the franchise for so many years to acknowledge that much about not being surprised if he were to be dealt. And does that to me indicate that there's maybe more in terms of his lack of full satisfaction with how things are going with your organization? Maybe. I mean, that's part of my interpretation of that exact quote. And so if there is some level of frustration with how things are going in the big picture for him, maybe it will take an off season of kind of getting that mental reboot to then come back and have a big season. I mean, he knows what's at stake certainly in 2025, and he would not be, I know this, he would not be the first or certainly the last player in baseball to kind of be a little bit out of sorts during his penultimate year before free agency to where maybe he's thinking about a trade or why the team isn't playing well, whatever it might be. And then he steps away, comes back after a really strong off season and is refocused and is dialed in and goes out and has a massive contract here. I mean, that to me is plausible and maybe even likely. And also where if he comes back and has a much better season next year in the first half, then it's good all the way around. Here he's helping you as the Blue Jays have a more representative season and maybe gets you back into the playoff hunt, or he has a tremendous first half and he becomes one of the guys that you're talking about at the trade deadline and has much more value from a performance standpoint than he has right now. And that's what I see with him and again, the only way, the only way that I see a trade happening with him in the next few weeks is if a team is such a big believer in him and says it themselves internally, "Hey, our metrics suggest that he's about to have a bounce back." Again, I'm not really even seeing that the metrics would suggest that's the case, but do they believe that you're not going to get a chance to get a player like Bo in a normal circumstance and you have to take a bit of a leap of faith that he's just had a really bad first half and that he's still an elite player and that you're willing to still pay significant prospects to get him? Again, I don't see that happening, but that's the only path that I would see to their being a boat trade in the coming weeks. John, it certainly feels like, I mean, we know this, I think it's been become pretty apparent that this competitive window for the Blue Jays is closing and rapidly, maybe much faster than they obviously have anticipated being the case. And part of the, you know, something that's really sort of occupied my thought process the last few days is thinking about as we project forward here, what does the core actually look like? What is the nucleus of this team sort of consist of? And it's very difficult because I think if you asked that question two years ago, it was pretty clear and I feel like playing into the consternation of the fan base is the fact that if we said, okay, let's try and project things out here and forecast how this team might look or what the core of this team might look like in 2026, which is only two seasons away, you're hard pressed to list of three, four guide that you can definitively say are probably going to factor in to the future of this club. How important is it for them to sort of define at some point between now and let's say the trade deadline next year, because obviously we know Vlad and Bo are going into contract years of 2025. How important is it for them to sort of start the process of defining what that next core group actually looks like? Daniel, it's an excellent point and I think it also sort of feeds into the larger question of is Ross Atkins still going to be making these decisions in a year's time or in the opposite? I think there's a lot of very fair questions as an organization about what the overall direction is and that's a difficult question. I think that you're making an excellent point in that if I'm a J's fan right now, I want to know who's Jersey can I buy? Who's Jersey can I buy? I want to know if I'm going to the ballpark and I want to buy Jersey, who's Jersey can I buy and feel reasonably confident that this player and this number will still be on the field from my team on opening day 2026. And Barrios, I would say, might add the best chance to be a star level player who you feel confident will still be part of the organization for years to come. But the amount of players for whom their contracts expire at the end of next season or sooner is a pretty significant portion of the roster. And I think that I've certainly been a fan of the way that Horowitz has played coming in. I hope that he's a part of the future. I hope he's part of the answer. Certainly is that back quality in the way that he's played. I'm sure is a big point of pride for the organization and should be. He looks like to me to be a very good Major League hitter. And I think he will be part of the next core of this team going forward. But aside from him, Danny Jans is a free agent, you know, Vlad and Bo obviously after next season. Springer has had a much better last few weeks, but it's hard to look at him and say, well, he's the future when the first couple of months of the year were so were so dismal. It really isn't an excellent question. I think that there's not a lot of solid answers there to be honest with you about who the next core is. They have to hope that some of the players coming up from the minor leagues in Jimenez, maybe is one more who they're really excited about in the future. That's kind of one of the reasons why the Orlevis News was so tough because there was a fleeting moment where he said, okay, this is exciting. He's in the big leagues now. We've got a chance to get a look at him and then the suspension happens. So it's that they are in a bit of a dilemma right now, but I think part of that dilemma and part of the reason why the trade deadline right now is so important guys is that if you do it right, if you if you make the right trades, you could bring in players who are a part of that next future. And that's why optimizing the value of a Kakuchi and maybe even considering a Bassett or a Gossman trade because I just I think that both of them, Bassett and Gossman, are going to bring in more interest from more teams right now than Vlad or Bo. I know we've talked a lot about Vlad and Bo. I think we should talk more about Christian Kevin because I think that they're they're more they're more valuable in the current marketplace than the other two. Yeah, it's not about the Vlad's and Bo's is about the Chris's and the Kevin's. Well, put that on a T-shirt. We got to talk about Christian Kevin at the deadline instead. Well, plenty of time to do so. John, always appreciate it. Thanks, buddy. All the best guys really enjoyed the conversation. Look forward to the next one. Sounds good. John Rosie MLB Network, our insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit Don Valley North Lexus dot com. Yeah, they're in a dilemma. All right. They're in a daily of a book because not only are the Blue Jays quite bad as evidenced by every game that they play. Yeah, they have no prospects. The one that was like, I guess, the big shining beacon just got popped for a suspension. And maybe he'll go back to hitting a bunch of bombs. The other guys keep getting hurt all the time. Yeah, they have no they have. Okay, Ricky Tiedemann, I guess we're going to see and that's that's sure is often injured as most pitching prospects are. Yeah, there's the two guys that were supposed to be pillars of this franchise are headed into the final year of their team control. Everybody's getting older. Like it's not great. It's really it's really not the saving grace is that and it didn't help them this year because they were too bad to even qualify for it. But like bad teams now are in the playoff mix all the time. You don't need to be very good to be in the playoff mix. And that's what's keeping the Blue Jays from a full scale tear down or at least declaring it at this point, that's sort of what it is, right? Yeah, I don't Vegas to vague hopes like it's not completely that's why I don't think they would they've completely ruled it out at this point. What a complete tear down? No, no, why they haven't fully declared like, Hey, our season's dead. Oh, what's the point in doing that? I don't why do you need to do that? I think I'm sure privately like teams know that they have eyeballs they also have access to MLB.com standing stage like they're they're aware like it's pretty obvious that the Blue Jays are going to be selling here. I think that the one question is, is it a full scale tear down or just a selling of depending free agents? And I think it's pretty clearly just selling them. Yeah, despite the fact that like in this team's best interest, like I said, because of the dilemma, the massive dilemma team dilemma and like maybe we can work on a catchphrase for next year's like instead of to the courts like we're in a dilemma. But yeah, I think if you were just like trying to create the next championship caliber Blue Jays team, I don't know how you do it with any of the guys that are still here. What's so poetic that the tagline this year's to the core because we have no idea what the actual core it looks like. Yeah, I mean, I think really for one more year, it's Vlad and Bo. Well, maybe that's it's a maybe it's not it's not a guarantee like two years ago, we could have said yes. For sure, if we project to 2024 and 2022, we would said these are the guys that are going to be on the roster. And we can't do that today. I think John painted a great picture. I love the the jersey analogy because it's so true. That's that speaks to the every fan in this city. When you go to a sporting event and you're considering and you you have young kids, right? And all especially with youngsters, they want jerseys. It's it's fun. It's cute. It's entertainment. They love the having that tangible tactile item that they can say that is part of what identifies my fandom. And then you're saying, okay, but what player do I get? And that conversation is pretty complicated. If you're a J fan today, because it's tricky to identify who actually is here for the long haul and who isn't Spencer Horowitz. Sure. Time board time now for the Wake and Rake presented by Sports Interaction, your homegrown sports book 19 plus bet responsibly Blue Jays Giants continuing this series tonight 9 45 p.m. Eastern on sports and sports at 590 the Van Chris Bassett versus Logan Webb pretty good pitching matchup. And it has the Giants favored minus 149 Blue Jays plus 125. The total is seven and a half here Daniela. I like the under on the total. It's an obviously a pitcher friendly ballpark. And if I had to even lean aside, I'd probably go San Francisco. Logan Webb is very, very good. Yeah, Logan Webb is quite good and Chris Bassett's having a good season. He does it with guts and guile and yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. But yeah, Blue Jays only got three hits against granted raining say young award winner, but only for five innings and the decent enough Giants bullpen. But like, not everybody was amazing. What do they do against a good pitcher? Probably not so well. Actually, like the Giants minus a run and a half plus 145 tonight. And that was the Wake and Rake presented by Sports Interaction, your homegrown sports book 19 plus bet responsibly when we come back. Oh, what a time to be a fan of Canada soccer despite a two nothing lost to Argentina yesterday. We'll talk to David Edgar, former Canadian International currently for Jeff C assistant coach next is the fan morning show continues. Ben Annis Daniela Franceski Sportsnet 590 the fan.
