[MUSIC] >> Good morning, Joe. Of course, I'm 5'9 in the van. Ben had us alongside Daniele, Francesca, filling in for Brent Gunning. So not quite the biggest sporting upset in this country's history, but a valued effort from Team Canada, Daniele. It was 58 days ago. The Jesse Marsh was named the head coach of the Canadian national team. And yes, while it was disappointing to nothing lost Argentina yesterday. You can't argue with the performance they put forth at the scope of America, unbelievable. >> Yeah, it is a valiant effort. I think the key for me, Ben, is that there was an appropriate level of disappointment in the messaging from the team. We've gotten to the point now where we know Canada can be disruptors in a lot of these situations, which is great, and that's important. It's fun to be in that position where you can actually feel like you have a legitimate chance to pull upsets and beat, be on the same pitch as a lot of these elite teams. But now, and Jesse Marsh has said this many times, it's not just about participating. It's about winning. And I think being in the position to where now they feel like they can actually hold expectations at a certain point or to a certain level, that's valuable. And last night you saw a team that was outclassed, but critically, they did belong. Like they did belong on that pitch. >> Yeah. >> And I think that is the biggest testament and the biggest compliment you could pay to what has been done in a six week span here for Jesse Marsh and this team as a whole. >> I remember talking and previewing the first time they played Argentina in the group stage. First match with the entire co-op America. And then again, man, wouldn't it be cool to just hang with that team? >> But yeah, understanding that a five, six nothing score line was not out of the realm of possibility. Scoreless at halftime ends up with an exact, exactly the same two nothing score line. Now in that game, Maxim Crippo was unreal and he was the messy stopper a couple of times he was in alone and made saves. But that was eye opening in a way because Canada in that moment looked like they belong. They look better yesterday. >> I agree. >> Then the first time these two teams matched up, it was not scoreless at the half, Argentina opened the scoring early and then kind of laid back and waited for their opportunities. It is an incredible change in narrative around this team considering all the positive things we said about them in the build up to making their first World Cup in over 30 years. And then the disappointment of bowing out in the group stage without before even playing your third match in the group stage, World Cup. And then the disappointments after that at the Nations League and then needing the last possible moment to qualify for this tournament, the narrative has switched all the way back now. And I will get into the game a little bit more, but we're talking about a World Cup that's two years away. It's in this country. >> Yeah. >> We're talking about a Gold Cup, which is now, I know this country has won a Gold Cup in the last couple of decades. And yeah, it's a huge moment in this country sporting history and Craig Forrest was a huge part of that. And yeah, there's some great moments there. But I think for the first time in a long time, there'll be a lot of attention on the Gold Cup when it comes to this team. And in two years, I think rightly that the goal should be to once again get out of the group stage. >> I agree. Well, I think that's a fair sort of measure and barometer of success at that tournament in two years. I think it's important to make sure we're mindful of what is realistic and what should be realistic, not to get, we can be, let's be optimistic and hopeful. I think what this tournament has done is it's reinvigorated a spirit and hopefulness that we saw when this team qualified for the World Cup a few years ago. It had sort of evaporated because as you alluded to, there had been sort of a mixed bag of results and think about even from a narrative standpoint, this spiral as it pertains to even just a head coaching position, the uncertainty surrounding who's gonna be in charge, who's leading this team. And then they go through a patch where they made the final of the Nations League, I believe it was against the United States. >> Yeah. >> I can't remember if they played the United States twice. >> They got blasted. >> Right. And people were saying, man, that's embarrassing. That was honestly a pathetic effort and it looked like they were completely unprepared. And we weren't sure what the direction was gonna be from that point in terms of how they would rebound from that. And having Jesse Marsh in charge, having a lot of these pieces and these younger players, not the Davies, not David, but other guys like Kone and Schappelberg really emerge, I think has helped shape what the, not the future looks like, but shape the overall level of optimism for how people can perceive what this team is capable of going into 2026 and beyond. I think that's important. That going into the World Cup was like an incredible run and wow, they really caught lightning in a bottle and this was, they're way ahead of schedule, but wait, they're like miles and miles and miles and miles and miles behind anybody that's any good at this thing. And they are still well behind the number one FIFA ranked nation in the world. Like no, let's not get it twisted, obviously. But yeah, I think you can rightly, and as North American sports fans, you, we have difficult difficulty, absorbing results or getting optimistic about teams that have no chance of actually winning something. I don't know, Canada might go into the Gold Cup coming next year as the favorites to win the whole damn thing. Anyways, I don't want to get too excited about losing to nothing in a semi-final, but obviously like Canada was huge underdogs in this game. I thought they acquitted themselves quite nicely. Argentina only had three shots on gold, Canada had two, one of them pretty late. To me, the difference is I'm not, I'm no soccer, like a tactician expert here, okay? Or I can just break down what I saw. I think it's a pretty universal takeaway. Canada create enough to score goals. They only scored twice in five matches. They have to finish that when the ball gets close to the net, it has to go in the net. That's the next stage of development for this team. Well I think that's, I think certainly that's part of it. To further illustrate that point, you look at Argentina's two strikers, and Julian Alvarez, who, I was the second start of the tournament yesterday. Both of his starts came against Canada and the opener and in the semi-final, and then Lattaro Martinez, who we didn't even really see yesterday. Those two guys alone, Ben, they're two strikers, scored six goals combined in the tournament. Canada had two, the entire way, one of which came from a striker, totally, like you need to finish and capitalize on opportunities. And I think one thing that was also highlighted yesterday, the great teams capitalize on mistakes. They make you pay when you make a mistake and look at the first goal from Argentina. It's a bit of lack of dasical coverage in the midfield, and then obviously we get. It's not playing, right? And the two, and you guys, Aleister Johnson and Bombito, who kind of get caught a little bit, and sure enough, if you leave enough space for a world-class striker like Julian Alvarez, who plays for Man City, he's going to probably bury it. And that's exactly what came to pass for them in that situation. So, you know, 90 minutes of concentration, it's a silly thing, but it does, I think it's applicable, like you need, especially when you're playing teams of that caliber, you can't, you can't have lapses, otherwise they're going to make you pay. And I had a lapse because they thought, and a lot of people thought, Richie LaReya was fouled, if not a yellow card to that, I know, should have been awarded to the Argentina player right before the opening goal of the game. I was playing golf with Sam Key yesterday, and we had him on yesterday, previewing this match as huge soccer dude, and we were talking about how this match might go. I think he was, I think he embodied the sentiment of a lot of people going into this match that like, Canada's going to have to play their best game they've ever played in the history of the organization. But also they're going to have to overcome some officiating, because, hey, this is the number one FIFA ranked nation, it's the South American Championship, and there's Canada against Argentina, it's messy against, you know, maritime messy, that the officials are going to play a big part in this, and at halftime, Jesse March did come off the pitch, seemingly infuriated at the officials, although afterwards he said, nah, I was just trying to get my team going. I mean, did you have any problem with the officiating this match? I mean, we can, I guess, talk about the road, Rodrigo DePaul, simulation. Oh, man, if there's anybody I, that's in my thoughts this morning, it's Rodrigo DePaul. I mean, he looked like he, he got shot on the field like he was done. No, I mean, gosh, I was disappointed when I saw that the Paul incident, you wonder why, because it's the Italians that dive, we're divers, we're the serial divers, not the Argentine's. Like, come on, that, and that was, it's the thing that you do, it's 100%. I knew, and this is not to go, you know, veer off track a little bit, but I knew for, and I'll tell you this, Italy, I knew they were done in the Euros when we stopped diving. That's what I knew we were finished. When the embellishment stopped, I knew the Italians were dead, and then last night, you know, we have an Oscar worthy performance from a guy in Rodrigo DePaul, who was very good, by the way, in the game in terms of his actual tactical, technical prowess. He was, he was excellent, but I did have a bit of an issue, you have very much so. I did have an issue with the officiating in this sense. You know, it's like, it goes without saying at any sport, you want consistency. And there was zero consistency in policing of the game. And that's the essence of what the officiating is there to do, police the game. And I think they failed to do that. It was 15-5, the foul count, in favor, playing favorably in the hands of Argentina. And like, yeah, there's the number one team in the world. They don't need it though. Like they don't need it, mind you, I mean, depending on, you know, you watch the Euros or whatever. I don't, you know, the number one team in the world. Yeah. Okay. In ranking only. I don't know that they swear that. I mean, they're defending World Cup champions as well. Fair enough. World Cup champs defending Copa champs, obviously, as well. This would be their second straight Copa final. I get all that. But yeah, that was my biggest sticking point, like, how do how do the players know where that line is consistently? Because you have incidents that would happen in the game where there's a foul called or there'd be a non non foul followed by a foul right after. So where is that line? How are they supposed to determine that line? And then if anything, you saw it as the game progressed, sure frustrations are going to start to boil over because they're trying to figure out what is the line? Like, that's not a foul. That is a foul. So where do we stand and how do we ensure we're playing this game within the boundaries of what you are trying to dictate is a foul versus what isn't a foul? Yeah, maybe, maybe a little bit of inconsistency when you rattle off the number of fouls for one team versus another and being as big a discrepancy as you mentioned, suppose you can get into the nitty gritty of the officiating. I don't think it was near the top of the packing order as far as talking points from that match. >> Yeah, RGZ is just much better talker than can. That was the case going into the match and not a surprising score line at the full-time whistle. So this is a match that I think was watched by a lot of casuals. Even people that hadn't maybe watched any of this tournament to this point. I think a lot of people did watch on Friday. I was one of them watching my backyard with my good butt and my kid. But I think anybody, even if you didn't watch that, you've heard the storylines surrounding this team. You understood the excitement surrounding this program. You understand, you understood the stakes going into this match. You looked at Drake's $30,000 bet, which maybe we can get into as he is all mushes. That you were tuning in to see what could have been, again, the biggest sporting upset in this nation's proud sporting history. It didn't happen. Again, they acquitted themselves well. There wasn't a real moment where you thought, here it is, they're going to steal it from the Argentines. They had a couple of good chances late, but by that point it was already too nothing. Do you think this encourages people like the casuals, not even like the soccer fans, maybe just like the sports fan who maybe even have a predetermined predilection to dislike soccer? Does this encourage people to continue to follow this team? Because I know, listen, I loved watching this team try to qualify for the World Cup in some incredible moments along the way, including the ice tech. And I loved watching them at the World Cup and the full 90 against Belgium and then scoring first against Croatia and the- >> Yeah, that was special. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, after that. But it didn't feel like that had the excitement around this team kind of dissipated. And part of that was the storylines surrounding the pay and then John Hurdman's departure. Are we right back to the excitement surrounding this team before the World Cup in their qualification for the World Cup for the first time in over 30 years? Is it beyond that? Like, how do you feel about where this team is in the collective Canadian sporting consciousness? >> I think that's a great question. I would submit that I think they're back to that level that we saw leading into the World Cup. The key here is, they're going to have competitions forthcoming, whether it's friendlies or in the Gold Cup, that you need to be able to post results and do it consistently. That's where I think, now mind you, when they play the United States in the nation's league final, was it the biggest story top of mind for a lot of Canadian sports fans in general? No, no, the casuals weren't tuning into that one, that's for sure. But I do think it had already gotten to a point where there was, I don't want to say turmoil, but where things had gotten a little bit murky in terms of the relationship between the players and the program. >> Yeah, that was the number one storyline surrounding this team. >> And that will then dilutes the actual product on the field and it hurts the ability to attract the average Canadian to flip on the game and generate excitement for what they're watching with, with the program and the players that are on the pitch. I do think it's also important that you have your best players consistently present. Now mind you, Davies and David, for example, have been there routinely. But in that situation where they played the United States, they were missing guys. Guys, not all their guys were present for that. >> Davies wasn't there, I don't think. >> I don't think Davies was there. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that, I'm pretty sure he missed that window. He wasn't, he didn't participate. We know Byron was cringing when he limped off the field yesterday. >> Man, especially because they're trying to cash in on him as a transfer asset right now. But I do think there is an element of sort of roping in a lot of those casuals again. The reality though, is you're not going to have this level of excitement. You can't replicate it for another two years. It's positive that it's only two years away. But I don't think you're going to have this same level of excitement. I'm very curious. This actually, I would argue Saturday, Saturday, the third place game where they'll play the loser of Uruguay, Colombia. That is going to be their biggest match until the 2026 World Cup. So what do people do on Saturday? Are we still at a point where even though it's a third place game, it's a third place game been at a major international tournament that we can't overstate that. There is some, there is something there, like that. Those are real stakes. >> Yeah, I mean, we just have to go back to the FIBA World Cup and Canada, the United States for bronze medal and how important that felt. >> Totally. So are people going to feel a similar way and be compelled to tune in? Because they realize that is maybe the last game we're going to have, that is a major consequence before the World Cup. >> Yeah, you know, I mean, I can't get enough of this team. Like I want them to play all the time, I want more, more, more, more, more, and I feel kind of sad that we have to, okay, we get this weekend's third place game and I'll be tuned in, feel sad that we have to wait a while for the Gold Cup and then another year beyond that for the World Cup because they've captured my imagination. I want like part of it. And we've had some great international success outside of men's hockey. So men's hockey's returning to Best on Best next year with the four nations or the, yeah, the four nations face off, okay? It's been a long time since we've had best on best in hockey. And I know the women had an incredible victory in the gold medal game and their incredible run through the Tokyo Olympics. I think I'm just starved for rooting for the flag, man. It's been a while. One of the most formative sporting experiences of my lifetime and I'm sure many people who are listening to me, their lifetimes was 2010 in Vancouver. >> Absolutely. >> And there's just been perilously few moments between then and now. And now it feels like we've got a conflagration of a million of them because we've got the Canadian national basketball team, they're gonna play an Olympic tune up tonight on sports now by the way, 1030 in Vegas against the Americans and they're one of the metal favorites going into the Paris Games. Yeah, I didn't realize how much I missed rooting for the flag and the fact that we have now a couple of different teams and a couple of different team sports that have hopes of not just being respectable, and I guess in this tournament, the expectation was to be respectable. But when it comes to the gold cup, like actually winning things, it is special and I didn't realize how much I missed it and needed it in my sports consumption life. >> Well, in many ways, even though they did lose last night, yesterday was about history, like they had never been in that position before. And this is now, I think it's actually, it goes back to the World Cup and even prior to that throughout the qualifying process, they've checked so many firsts off the box, like every box is the first this, the first that, the first appearance in this tournament, all these things that are the firsts, now that it's out of the way, that's where the evolution and growth is going to come. So there's an element of patience that will be required because they're going through this process, and we just said they went through an era, a generation of firsts. But I think your point is very valid in saying that people are kind of, start for that team success with the Canadian flag being draped across the front of the uniforms. And yes, we've had it with, as you alluded to, women's soccer, we've had success even with women's basketball on occasion, but in terms of other items, other things that we can tangibly latch onto, it's been difficult. It's been difficult. And within the whole public stream of consciousness of major mainstream sporting events, that's why this was big, because it's watched by everybody around the world. It's at a time where it's running parallel to like even the euros. And that's usually a thing that on a day where France played Spain in the semi-finals of the Euro 2024 tournament, the number one talking point here in Canada was Canada Argentina. And in fact, probably in North America, it was Canada Argentina. And I think that is awesome. And it illustrates how far they've come. And yet, we can still say there's still a long way to go because we saw how they performed last night and where they lack quality in certain areas. And that's okay. That's okay. But it is a good place to start. And I would agree, I think anything, people are excited for anything that has to do with the Canadian flag at this point. >> There's a sliding door moment where after the disappointment of losing all three group stage matches at the World Cup and the disappointment of the four nations league or the nations nations. >> Nations, yep. >> Final. And then the the needing, what was it, I winner take all match against Trinidad and Trinego to get into the Copa America. If Canada bows out in the group stage of the Copa America, there is like, I think, a sense of, okay, that was great, making the World Cup was great and what a step in the right direction. But okay, like did the momentum not sustained and in fact, there's a step backwards. Now that there are tangible results, like a victory, now granted, it was one nothing against Peru. >> Well, they won two games, man, they won two matches. >> One in the 90 minutes against Peru team down to 10 men and then one in penalty kicks last Friday, where they also scored regulation against Venezuela. There are actual tangible victories to talk about, yeah, we're back to this organization, this program being viewed in very positive terms. And yeah, I can't wait for this weekend and the third place match, I can't wait for the Gold Cup, I can't wait for the World Cup at home in 2026. Honestly, I am surprised that we're there considering the narrative surrounding this team, considering the way the head coach departed and we'll get to that later after seven o'clock and what he must be thinking, watching the last two months. >> Oh yeah. >> 58 days ago, Jesse March stepped into this role and picked up a result, it was a score of the straw against France in the run up to the Copa America, got out of the group stage and put forth a valiant effort, getting all the way to the semifinals of the Copa America. You could not have imagined a more dream start for Jesse March to the head coach of this Canadian men's national team. He's endeared himself in a really special way to a lot of Canadians because I mean, look, I'm a sucker for it. I love seeing that a guy who has no prior history related to Canada, he's singing the anthem every single game, which was really cool. I enjoyed that, I'm a sucker for that stuff. Call me somebody that loves sentimentality, but I'm into it. Also in the span of two months, he's kind of like, he's a more polished version of John Herman, like he brings the charisma, he's got the emotional side, that aspect of it. He can clearly galvanize a group with the way he approaches the game, but then he also now has a different added layer of tactical wisdom and proficiency that I think was missing. Like I think that's where from in terms of like tangible results, we can point to that being an area that his impact was truly felt and it makes you really hopeful for what the future might hold because he did that in a two-month window or less than that. So imagine now you're thinking, all right, this is just the beginning hopefully, how are they going to look as they gradually have more opportunities to gather for various windows and participate in different tournaments or even play in friendlies that they're going to gradually build and add to this foundation that has been established. I thought he did a great job and he acquitted himself very well and he certainly has made himself a big time celebrity and beloved figure in the Canadian sports community. Yeah, you said the bar high though. That's a good problem to have though. Yeah, like I said, I think anything short of getting out of the group stage in 2026 is going to be viewed as a disappointment, but there's like 200 teams in the World Cup coming up in 2026. That's why it's, I know, that's why people are in like Vatican City, so people argue to the death that like the Euros are the best tournament because of the, it's not diluted by the sheer volume of teams. Nope. So, moral victories, you're allowed to have them if you're a team candidate, the world are at the Copa America, not so much for the Blue Jays. Oh man. As they get walked off in San Francisco last night, we'll get into that in more next. The fan morning show continues, Ben Anis, Danielle A. Franceski, SportsNet 590, the fan. Dive deep into Toronto sports and the NFL. The J.D. Bunk is podcast. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah. Good stuff. Fan morning show, SportsNet 590, the fan, Ben Anis, Danielle A. Franceski, yeah, Blue Jays lose first game of this series of giants, chance to win three straight for the first time in a long time. Yadda yadda yadda. We'll get to it in just a second. There are a couple of uniforms I don't want tampered with, okay? Don't want the Yankees uniform tampered with. I don't need a Yankees City Connect uniform. The Red Sox have done their yellow uniforms, honestly. Same deal with them. Tigers uniforms. I don't want those messed with. I don't want the San Francisco Giants uniform messed with. I don't like the red. That was offensive to my eyes watching whatever uniform that was. I think they, I think they overdid it with the gradient on the lettering and the jersey numbers where it goes from like orange into white and you can't see the bottom of the number anymore. Yeah, not a fan, like that's where I think it went a little bit overboard. I actually don't, oh, wrong, didn't mind the cream giants. The cream giants with like the orange and black SF, like there's nothing better than that uniform. I can't argue with that. I can't argue with that. What is that? The red? Where does red come from? Horrible. Anyways, yeah, also horrible Blue Jays bullpen, which is the second worst in the majors as far as ERA is concerned, only behind the abysmal Colorado Rockies who also play on the moon, right? So like you got to take that into account. So like the only team that plays all of their games on planet Earth, they have the worst bullpen in baseball. You know what's weird about it though? It's not weird because it makes plenty of sense. They're only tied for the, they're actually tied for the ninth fewest bullpen losses in baseball this season as only their 14th of the year because I guess they have no leads to blow generally. Generally speaking. Yeah, I'm with you. Yeah. I think that makes sense. That seems to compute. What the positions and situations that those guys are coming in, more often than not. Yeah. It ruined what was- Oh, it's boiled in. Arguably, the best start of Yusei Kikuchi's career career. High 13 strikeouts allowed to come out for the eighth inning gives up the bomb, but another strikeout to add on to his what was a career high tying 12 strikeout. He ends up with 13. He's appending free agent. He's going to be shopped around the deadline clearly. I mean, this organization knows how valuable he can be in the postseason because they interrupted Jose burialses greatest moment, potentially of his career because they had to go to the fireballing lefty against the Minnesota Twins last season. I understand it's been an uneven season for Yusei Kikuchi. They had a rough month of June. There has to be somebody that's watching this and there's still more starts to come before the July 30th trade deadline. Yeah. And it's a rental player and he's not Justin Verlander, right? So it's not going to be a Kings ransom, but my goodness, he's got to help somebody in the postseason, whether that's as a postseason starter or a guy that, again, like in theory, he was supposed to do an outside of like the walks when he immediately came into the game against the twins. Yeah. I look pretty good after that. Like, either as the fireman, you know, couple innings in the middle of a postseason game or as a as a postseason starter, somebody must be watching what he's doing this season. And and I mean, the Blue Jays are hoping multiple teams are watching what he's doing in yesterday's start and maybe the couple starts before the trade deadline and saying, yeah, this guy can help us in October. Finally, it's reassuring that you're seeing this version of him at this point, because he had a bit of a stretch there where things didn't look so good and the consistency wasn't there. It sort of, it had, it had completely disappeared at a certain point for you, say, Kakuchi. I am curious to know what the market looks like for him. Like how do I feel like the Jays, two things need to happen. One, he needs to pitch well. He's probably got, I would say, he's got one more start before the all-star break. So he's starting the finale on on Sunday afternoon. And then that probably puts him in line for at least one more before the trade deadline on the 30th. So I would I think he's got to continue to pitch well to hopefully drive that price up. And I think the Jays need to do a good job of trying to drum up a market here a little bit like in your next to Garrett crochet, he's probably the second most valuable left-handed pitcher that will be available and accessible to be had at this trade deadline. And he's proven in various stops that he's able to do it as a starter, which we've seen this year, then quite frankly, the last two years where he's been very good in that in that regard. But also, as you put it, Ben, on on a team that has maybe a bit more depth on a team that is maybe going deeper in the postseason, there's some flexibility built in that he can come out of the bullpen at points to serve as a valuable lefty arm. And we know the lefties especially come at a premium. It is so important to have those versatile lefties arms that are high powered that throw for velocity and you can just go to the back. You can bring them out of the pen and in any given situation at critical moments. And his fastball clearly this year is playing. I know they had a nugget on the broadcast yesterday where they mentioned, they asked you say, Kukuchi, what has sort of unlocked this elevated velocity for you or this consistent velocity that we've seen? And he stopped throwing bullpen. >> Yeah. >> They've sort of at all in between starts, doesn't throw bullpen and clearly it's working because he's been hitting 96, 97 on the radar gun and sitting there routinely. I think there's a lot of value there. And I think the market will dictate sort of what they end up getting for him. But it is important that he continues to pitch well in that there is a way with his performance coupled by what the team does in terms of maybe drumming up a market that they find a way to maximize this asset and get something valuable for him. >> Yeah, the comparable is I guess JHAP in 2018, who was one of the best available starters that Blue Jays sold off of the deadline for Billy McKinney and Brian and Droy. The difference I would say is that, yeah, JHAP, if you're playing 162 games, you need to guys start 30 games for you. It's a nice, valuable asset. It was hard to imagine JHAP playing a significant role in the postseason. >> I would agree. >> Guy that throws upper 90s from the left side, I think can help anybody when you get to the playoffs. All right, Blue Jays has three hits in the baseball game. >> Geez. >> Cuz that's what they're wanting to do. I mean, it was an incredible start by you say, Kukuchi wasted, it was an incredible moment by Ernie Clemente. Also wasted as he turns on a hang and break in ball and the inside of the plate, three run home run, one nothing deficit into a three one lead. Also an incredible moment for Spencer Horowitz, who did not start the game against the lefty starter Blake Snell, who looked pretty good in his return to action coming off the IL, giving up just one hit over five innings. So at the deadline, this team's gonna look a lot different, you would think. And there's gonna be a lot of older fellas, the Blue Jays are gonna try and sell off, not the least of which is Justin Turner, and certainly they'll be accepting phone calls from anybody that is buying on the recent hot streak of George Springer. And maybe that changes the playing time situation. But the Blue Jays are kinda, the dye is cast now, right? I guess barring some incredible winning streak that changes the math before the trade deadline, team stinks, clearly, and is looking ahead to 2025. Spencer Horowitz throughout the course of his minor league career is an entire professional life. To be able, he's been able to hit all comers, right? He's left. He's, you know, guys that throw from both sides of the plate, pet vendetti, it doesn't matter. I mean, shouldn't this Blue Jays team be just playing them every day? Okay, there are a couple of reasons to be optimistic about 2025. One is like Vlad looks like one of the best first baseman in the American League, and part of that is first base ain't what it used to be. The other part is like there's actually some intriguing young players highlighted by now Spencer Horowitz, who's found a position at second base. Is it time to just see what you got in that player as an everyday player? Yeah, I mean, I have a few different thoughts on this one is how much of our enamourment with him or our admiration for him also coincides with the fact that they're just, it speaks to how bad the lineup is overall. Like, I think there's a part of that. No question, but he does have like a nine 59 OPS. No, and I'm like, I just, I do think that factors in slightly just, just a little bit overall in terms of how, you know, and we've done this now for the last couple years of like going down rabbit holes of saying, well, this guy's got to play more for this reason. And then you've got to think about, okay, how much of that is actually, you know, based on what the skill set of that player is versus what we're seeing elsewhere throughout the lineup. But Horowitz, for sure, think about he's got seven multi hit games in 27 appearances this season. It tells you all you need to know, like he's been steady as can be. And the one thing he consistently provides that sort of evades most hitters on this roster is just a consistency in the quality of his at bats. Like they're good at bat. Even last night he gets the double like it's off of Ryan Walker, who's been outstanding this season. Now that that little act, I don't even know how to explain his release point. It's really interesting. But he works a full count and puts himself in a position where he's like, okay, I'm going to look for something over the point that I'm going to hit. It's a slider. I can handle it. Boom. I'm going to do. I'm going to just put it in play. I'm going to, I'm not going to try and get too cute with it. Just put it to the big part of the field and see where we go from there. And it, you know, what else is also comical, but yesterday is they had three hits. The three hits came from David Schneider, who did not finish the game, Spencer Horowitz, who had one at bat and then was pincher on four and Ernie Clement, who hit the home run. The other guys, nobody else bothered to collect a hit and yet two of those three guys didn't even finish the ball game. They didn't even have the opportunity to finish the ball game. Yeah, it's good stuff. Spencer Horowitz and you know, you mentioned the splits been this year, obviously at the major league level, it's a smaller sample, but 333 against right-handed pitching, 364 against lefties. Now, mind you, only 11 A.B.s against left-handed pitching. But last year in Buffalo, a full season playing in triple A, like he hit 368 very good against righties, but he was 261 against lefty respectable in a big sample. Like clearly, this is a guy that I feel I'm with you should be in there and has earned the right to play on an everyday basis. Yeah, you want to see what you got in 2025 in Spencer Horowitz. It's also hilarious that it took this long into his professional life to realize the guy with like limited power, but great on base and bat them all skills, like, but a capable defender, if you try them out at different positions, took this long to move them off of first base where, man, you want to get some keen insight into players' mentality when they're playing at different positions, talking about, hey, when I'm playing first base, I am trying to hit home runs. When I'm playing second base, it's trying to get base hits, which, I mean, he's obviously very adept at incredible looking played appearances on the routine from Spencer Horowitz. You mentioned the other guys with no hits. That's no hits from George Springer, Boba Shedd, Vladimir Wearer Jr., Justin Turner, Danny Janssen, Dalton Varsho. Hey, Janssen did walk three times, huh? Yeah. That's cool. And Leo Jimenez. Yeah, actually, Leo, Leo's up. That's where we're okay. I mean, that's the one argument against playing Horowitz in yesterday's game. It's like, you didn't want to get a look at Jimenez. Lefty's starting around. I know. Yeah, yeah. But whatever. So those other guys had no hits, including Boba Shedd, three strikeouts. The last one was, you got squeezed a little bit. But we're now, it's July 10th today, so he's completed his games through July 9th, and the OPS is under 600 now. That last strikeout dropped him under 600, and oh, we keep going back. I kept going back, and I guess we'll continue to keep going back until it's, like, I guess middle of September to that 2022 season, where he's hitting 7th in the middle of July. This Blue Jays lineup, it was after the all-star break, right? Yep. Jon Schneider took over after Charlie Montoya was fired after that four-game series sweep in Seattle, and one of the first orders of business for Jon Schneider was banging him down to 7th in the order, and almost immediately that coincided with the incredible hot streak. And the incredible finish for Boba Shedd, that rescued his numbers, and he ended up leading the American League in hits. I mean, this would be, that would make that season look like a peanut, like, if he rescues this season. Seriously. And you, you stacked up against what was an incredible final month and a half in 2022. Hey, yeah, in September, like had like 60 hits, is that ridiculous? If he has something approaching the final numbers he had in 2022 in 2024, well, we're looking at a guy that's going to have one of the best final two months in like major league baseball history. Yeah. I mean, I'm getting to the point where, and Ben Nichols and Spada asked him about it yesterday. It's like, at this point, there is no number that suggests it's coming. You have to entirely go on faith. And I got to say, despite the long track record, and I had the baseball reference page, I can see all the previous half decades worth the seasons he's put forth in his major league career. But I'm also watching the games and the longer this goes, the more I am curious as to how it's going to finish. Even when you watch, and I know he's always kind of been this way, like he, it's a very, it's tough to ever judge body language with him, especially him, more than other players. He at times just kind of looks disinterested out there, like it's, it's, it's, it's kind of weird and even the quality of the at bats at times, and I know he's always been this aggressive swinger, free swinging approach. But you would think maybe as you're sort of mired in this career or slump, that you might touch, consider adjusting slightly your approach to maybe be a little bit more patient on occasion. But I mean, I think you get punished by a couple of bad calls and you're last about when you thought you did ball four points. So no, no, and, and that is, that is 100% valid, I was going to say also, and this, this actually points to just how deep the, the frustration is when, and we saw this with George Springer when he was going terribly for an extended stretch this season, anytime something goes against you, it feels like the end of the world and you actually lash out even more than you would traditionally normally bow is a real cool customer. Very mild mannered, he's not going to be one to engage with an umpire or get upset. But yesterday he was legitimately peeved and he had good reason for it. But I would say if Bo was in a different place in terms of how he felt about what he's doing at the plate, there's no, or the reaction would have been different. So I think that even tells us, gives us a bit of a lens into how he's feeling about how things are going. I think, you know, and you mentioned, what it would take for him to get even remotely close to the 2022 season, it would require a historic stretch here over the next two and a half months to put him even remotely close to what his career averages are. And I think, I think there's something, there's something missing here. Like I feel like he's, this is a, this issue is maybe deeper than we think in terms of what's wrong with him. He hasn't homered since May 27th, like he's hitting below 200 now in consecutive months. And I point to one thing in particular, how he's hitting fastballs throughout his career, he has killed fastballs. He's in each of his five major league seasons before 2024. He said 300 or better against fastballs. This year, he's in 234 Ben with one homer against fastballs. And that's on an expected batting average of 298. Like he's supposed to do damage on pitches and he's just not. For whatever reason, it's not happening. And I think that is something I point to as part and parcel why his numbers are where they are. He's a guy that jumps on first pitches, he's aggressive accounts. We know that. But generally speaking, historically it's always been, it's worked in his favor because he's done damage on ambushing fastballs. And this year, it's just not there for him right now. >> Give me something like expected batting average that's super high and he's been hitting into some bad luck. Give me something like average exit velocity that's been outrageously high and he's hitting into bad luck. Give me like the disappointing Vlad seasons, but it's like, well, he's hitting the ball. Super hard, but it's on the ground and if he could just change the, there's nothing, man. Like I guess you could point to the hard hit percentage being in the 69th percentile. But we're talking about a guy that led the American League in hits two years and almost three consecutive, he stays healthy for all of last season. >> The expected batting average, if you go to the advanced stats, 261 for Boba Shet. So yeah, patience is part of it, not swinging at pitchers pitches early in the count is part of it. And I guess there's still time, but again, if 2022 is your proof of concept that this is possible for Boba Shet, this is beyond anything that he did in 2022. >> I think the other problem for them is, what do you do? There's nothing that as a team they can really do. You, okay, fine, demote them down the order, Barry, I'm say, hey, we're doing this, you need a bit of a reset again, like you gotta, let's see if we can get you just find something that works. Like we saw a couple of years ago, demote them down to the seven hole and say, okay, stay there for awhile. But realistically, they don't have options, right? Like they don't really have, and this is something that they went through and they have gone through with Vladimir Giro Jr. Even when Vlad's gone poorly, to your point, at least they can point to peripheral stats, but on top of that, they've never been, there's never been consequences for that. Like when he's gone poorly, there have never been material consequences. >> So neither of these guys, and it hasn't happened yet, nobody's finished a season with below average offensive statistics, right? Like Vlad has had disappointing seasons relating them to the expectations of the player and the position that he plays, and he's always had an OBS over 750, right? It's been, well, where's the guy that we expected to be the best hitter in baseball like he was in 2021? If Boboshette finishes a season where he's like a below average offensive player and then barely, if you can call him average defender at a premium position, I mean, that's, to me, the most interesting question of the offseason is going into the final year of their team control. Well, did you just play it out with both of them, do you try and sign one, not the other? >> Well, I think you're kind of stuck with Bo, and also to emphasize your point about him being currently a below average hitter this season, OPS plus was 72, that means he's 28% below league average. Like that's pretty significant, and I guess the Vlad's defense, even when Vlad was going poorly at times the last few years, that was never the case. You know always, either slightly above, which 100 is the minimum, that is the bar of league average. He was either always slightly above that metric or right in and around there. So it's not like he was drastically underperforming to the level of being a below average hitter, but Bo is in a terrible spot. I think with them, in terms of the future, they're kind of stuck. Like what do you do? You can't trade him. He's a diminished asset. You can't even go into the offseason and trade him because he's still not gonna, like I don't think the numbers are gonna recover, you're not gonna rescue it to the point where his value is now back to being full tilt, like franchise player level value that you might be wanting to cash in on. I feel like they're kind of stuck and they're probably looking at a scenario where he has to start 2025 on their roster. >> Yeah, I don't think there's any question that you're not offering him an extension because whatever you'd be prepared to roll the dice with with him, he's probably saying, well, that's not who I am, and I'd rather just play it out for another year and hit free agency after a season being the player that I know I am. I mean, the only potential saving grace might be that, and again, we haven't seen it, it is only July, which seems late in the season. We're not yet at the all-star break. There is a chance for him to at least salvage the season that he can be an above average offensive player, that there's a belief and the Dodgers have some special metric. And they look at Boba Shett and yeah, the pending return of Mookie Betts and not wanting to put him at shortstop again and saying, okay, we'll buy on the career track record of the player instead of what he is today and that's a move you make at the deadline. That's barring that, yeah, it feels like it's a very different conversation between Vlad and Bo if the season plays out the way it has to this point where I think you're doing everything within your power to sign Vladimir Guerrero Jr. to an extension and there's proof of concept with the Raphael Devros deal going into the last year of his team control with the Boston Red Sox. It's, yeah, it's difficult to come to terms when you're that close to free agency, but it can happen, but with Boba Shett, it's just hard to imagine a scenario where that manifests itself. >> Completely agree. The pathway is not clear when it comes to that and the longer this slump sort of drags on and the struggles continue and persist, it points to one, there isn't an immediate conclusion to the Boba Shett situation and secondarily, it also suggests the odds are actually increased. He's going to be on this roster, which I would have said at the beginning of the 2024 season, there was probably a stronger degree of clarity that we would at least have on Bo versus Vlad in my estimation and that come 2025, one of them, one of them might not be on the roster anymore. I feel less certain about that because mainly because you almost have your hands tied with Boba Shett at this point. >> Yeah, there's nothing you can do, you just have to, you have no choice but to have faith in the career long track record of Boba Shett and yeah, continue to point back to 2022 and how dire it felt at that time where he had all such a paltry, OPS of like 700. He said, >> What you would give for sale right now. >> What you would give. >> What you would give. >> Four home runs this season. >> He hasn't homered since May 27th. >> Nah, he's been one of the worst offensive players, but like the decaying corpse of George Springer has lapped him offensively. >> Oh man. >> Yeah. >> I guess that's the proof of concept as well is that George Springer was in the same boat as him, what, two weeks ago. >> For sure. >> And he's not good. I was arguing that George Springer is now World Series MVP good again, but yeah, the numbers look a little bit more respectable than the way they did a couple of weeks ago where you're like, okay, yeah, he can play. >> He's a major leader. >> Yeah, yeah, let's not just see Addison Barger with three times a game, all right. So yeah, we'll see. Maybe a strong couple of weeks are upcoming for Bobosha, but it's been jarring to watch recently. All right, when we come back, Canada acquitting itself incredibly at the Copa America despite a 2-0 loss to Argentina yesterday. Are we at the point finally where we can have real sports discussions about them by which I mean, can we criticize them because I have a critique upcoming. more next is the fan morning show continues bananas. Daniele Franceski Sportsnet 590 the fan.
