(upbeat music) - You know, I don't give out like free praise. I'm not somebody who just like, you know, hyping the boys up to hype them up. When it's needed, I do, but I try not to. Sandman, you've been on it with the music this week, okay? I think people out there think I'm being sarcastic. - I got Beach Boys love my heart, I do, I do. Feels very Americana as well. I like Tony, he hit me with the Don McLean, little American pie earlier. Sandman, you've been crushing the wheels of steel this week. That is an earnest compliment that you have deserved. And you know what, you also hit me with the dry side earlier. So you've been on it. - Yeah, you did, yeah. - Good job, Santos. - Good job, good job. - Good job by you, okay? Middle of summer, we got to give out some flowers. We also got to talk about the Leafs 'cause it's the middle of the summer. Doesn't matter, day ends and why. Month starts with any letter of the alphabet. I will be talking about the Leafs. And there's a lot to talk about still. There is a lot of questions about this team. There's a lot of questions about where they stand. It is a, it's an interesting team to talk about because most of the particulars involved haven't changed. There has been not a lack of change though. There's certainly a lot of new pieces. But I think the general feeling is everybody was charged up to have the off season kind of go one way. And it's played out much differently. And I just think people are in this almost point of stasis. They don't know what to make of it. - How much do you think is linked to one player? - Yeah, all of it, right? - Pretty much all of it. - I don't know, but is that the development of a false narrative or is that the reality that the Toronto Maple Leafs when they looked at their roster actually said, okay, so where's the change gonna come? Let's point out if we have to sit in a room and have these discussions or put it on the whiteboard with the depth chart in the war room, what are we circling as areas of change? I quite frankly think the actions that we've seen them take in addressing the blue line. To me, that was probably the number one priority in their eyes was actually saying, all right, let's completely remodel this. Let's fortify the blue line. Let's make sure that obviously we have to address the goaltending in a different fashion with the way that contractually, Ilya Sampson out moving on. And now you have Joseph Wall and you have to figure out who's your guy and how we're proceeding there. I just don't know that it all really actually hinged on one guy, Gunnar. I don't know, I think publicly the perception is that it did. But in reality, I'm not sure that it was reflected in how the Leafs approached their offices. And that's at least my interpretation. - Yeah, no, I think you're bang on that if they said they had one job to do, it was definitely to reach the blue line. And they certainly done that. This insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit Don Valley, Northlexus.com. Very, very pleased to welcome in a man starting vacation today and talking to us. Nick Kiprios-Kipper, how's it going bud? - I'm good guys, how are you? - We're doing well, let me just start by commending you. You know, everyone thinks I'm joking when I say it, but I'm not my favorite show on the station. Bar none, you know, even though Sammy's involved, I do still like the show. You guys did a bang up job all year long. One of my favorite programs that I, you all well earned vacation to help the three of you have. - Really appreciate it. - Yeah, they're great guys, tons of fun. You know, we try to keep it as fresh as possible. So we're not even allowed to talk about the Leafs prior to the show, which always makes it interesting. And then everyone for the while are good buddy beside you. They're disco dance steps in and you know, Derek Brandejo, you know, and the whole crew around him have done a fantastic job the last three years and it's just been so much fun. - Yeah, awesome. I, again, yeah, it goes without saying but thoroughly will miss it. But it's better for, it's like, you know, like you guys were running on some tread at the end of the year. Like I think everybody could do some vacation as well. Although you couldn't have been running on tooth in a tread 'cause you cooked up a wonderful topic for us. I actually think you mentioned this on Canada Day, although the days are starting to run together. You throw out the Tavares, Captain C, anecdote. This isn't anything that we haven't talked about, but how real a discussion do you think that is? And do you think that it's a discussion that at all kind of kicked up now that the offseason seems to have settled? You know, this isn't to say there can't be a major trade or something, but it does seem like things are kind of set. How do you think that discussion, if it takes place at all kind of evolves over the course of the summer? - Well, listen, first of all, you know, when I talked about it or suggested it, you know, my intent wasn't to make it a story about John Tavares getting stripped, okay? And that's the word that a lot of people in social media have used around, you know, what I said. And that was not my intent. And to downplay it on what's wrong with John Tavares as a captain, it was not my intent. John has been a pro, has been a pro his whole career. You know, he handles everything with class and dignity. And that's not what I was attempting to do. So I just want to be clear on that. As far as what is real is that there is a period where, you know, you start moving forward and those conversations are happening with the Toronto Maple Leafs with the captaincy. We know he's in his last year of his deal. Not that. - Oh, oh, did they get him? Did they get him? - Oh, sorry, Kipri, sorry, Kipri, you just cut out. And if you could just kinda, the moment you cut out, you made clear your point. And I think it's a good one to make that this is not about stripping John Tavares, but you did kind of cut out just after that. So if you could just kind of reiterate whatever wonderful point I'm sure it was you were making. - Yeah, just it's just about the transition on his last year of his deal and whether or not he'll even be back, you know, on a new contract at a more limited role. But the emphasis was more about the conversation that the Leafs are having is now the time for Austin Matthews to now take where he is in his career as a Toronto Maple Leafs to another level. And we know where the easy decision is, is if you wanna empower Austin even more as a Maple Leafs, then you put the C on him, you know, sooner than later. That's the conversation that they're having. So if it's not gonna happen this summer and going into training camp, then there's most likely then they'll let John play out whatever they need to do with John and then they'll do it next year. But Austin Matthews will be the next captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs. The only question is when did they do it? - So the Matthews, the Matthews part of it, I think you're right, there's no question about it. It's just a matter of when in fact it does come. Do you think that that can unlock something of him? I mean, the whole time he has been here, and you know, I think there's a smart thing to do early in his career, there have been the adults in the room that are supposed to set the tone and they tried it with Marlowe and they tried it with Thornton and they bring in Tavares and O'Reilly and we can go down the list. But do you think empowering him in a way where, I mean, he doesn't even wear an A every game right now. Him and Marner share it. Does that matter to a guy? Do you think it would materially kind of change anything about him? And even if you don't know it will, is it kind of worth the shot at at least? - Well, this is the, you know, this is an ongoing conversation and a bigger picture is how you feel about a captaincy in the NHL and does it really matters? Is it just a letter on a jersey or does it truly empower somebody? So I am of the old school. I believe that there's one alpha dog in every room. You hope that it's the guy that's wearing the C. He has different boundaries and other players to do and say things either in the room between players only or with management or with even ownership sometimes. So, you know, listen, we all love awesome Matthews as a goalscore, but, you know, he needs to have a bigger range than just putting the puck in the net. And I do believe that it would empower him. And I do believe that it would throw more responsibility on him and have a greater sense of what he needs to do or sometimes what he needs to say to help lead a team to a Stanley Cup. So I absolutely believe that putting a letter on Austin could change the dynamic. And I'm not sitting here telling you today that I think he'd be a perfect captain. I think there's a lot of work to do, right? And I think there's still the ability for him to connect even in the city, even in the community. I think he can do more. And it all revolves around telling him that he needs to now go to the next level. - Yeah, I think, Kipper, the interesting thing when it comes to the captaincy is any time we sort of have this discussion we think of. And I'm in agreement. I think it's pretty clear that Austin Matthews, as you put it, will be the captain of this team someday, just depends, it's a matter of when and not if. But every time this conversation sort of comes up and the inevitable question is posed, well, is it time for Matthews to have the letter on his jersey, we try to poke holes in that discussion by pointing out the blind spots or the areas in which the maturity hasn't shown yet. But we don't think enough about, as Gunner alluded to, what that might do to actually empower that individual to display or at least develop even more mature traits in terms of how they comport and conduct themselves in that role, wearing that letter. And I think that's an interesting, it's an interesting point to be raised here in all of this. I did want to hit on Tavera's a little bit more in this respect, Kipper. You referenced the contract, we all know he's going into the final year of his existing deal, independent of the captaincy and whether that letter is, there's a transition that occurs or if he remains the captain, do you think the Leafs have an appetite to revisit the idea or to entertain the idea of bringing him back on a new deal to keep him around beyond next season, whether that's in, or is it all just dependent on the price at that point? Like, what is the balance there between the desire to keep him in the uniform versus saying, okay, we need to make a difficult decision and let this guy maybe test the free agent waters? - Well, first of all, that I hear all the things that you're saying and I will tell you that I think that it's just not a price point. That's almost secondary to John coming back in a training camp, seeing what kind of start he has, seeing what kind of consistency he has, he had one of the worst-productive seasons of his career at 65 points, which is still very good by most standards. But, you know, where is his game? Is it progressing? Is it now falling out of a top one or two centermen? Are you looking forward and envisioning John Tavares in a third role checking situation? You know, can it be a poor man's Patrice Bergeron that can score 65, 70 points, but can be a guy now that you can put against other top lines and shut them down. Like, where's the evolution of his career moving forward? Because we know they signed them as a top point producing number one kind of centermen, but that's not where he is today. So where do you have him slotted moving forward and how much are you willing to pay for that? But you've got to go in a training camp. You've got to get through October, November, see where he is, December. Is it a situation where, you know, the Leafs feel like they're moving off of John and you want to throw him out there as a potential guy that can help another team get into the playoffs, maybe in the Western, who knows? Will he wave his no move to go? Will he, will they let him ride off in the sunset or off from a lesser role next year? We won't know that until we see him and see what type of role he has coming out of training camp. That's the first look it. Yeah, it'll be fascinating to see. And obviously for the first time, and well, not the first time, but for the first time in a long time for all of these guys, it's going to feel different, right? Like Keith has been there for so long for a guy like Tavares who knows what it's been to have been a leaf for six years now. It is going to be very different with Peruvian. It don't mean that to be like, oh, he's going to be bagskating him left, right and center. It's just, it has a different tenor. It has a different feel and whatever baked in preconceived notions that were with Keith as head coach, that's completely gone now. Now, you mentioned the idea of waving a no move, and I'm sure you know where I'm going with this. Now, everyone should check out your piece in the star. It's wonderful. I would never read all of it. I'm going to read one little segment and I want to ask you about it here. Prior to the predators spending a whack of dough on free agent, Sam Coast, Marsha Show and Shea, ex-leaf, Ryan O'Reilly did his very best to convince GM Barry Trotts to make a push to trade for Mitch Marner. Should I read into that, if Mitch Marner would maybe be welcome or open to a trade to Nashville? Or, and again, like you pointed out, the money's been spent. That's not happening now. But should that mean that maybe there is a possibility, Marner would be open to going elsewhere? Or do you think that's just kind of coming from O'Reilly in the pred side of things? - Well, so that Marner's no different than any free agent in any era. Like he can read the tea leaves. He's got one year left on his deal. Are the leaves gonna offer me something or are they not? For us to assume that Mitch Marner has never pictured himself 12 months from now, he's standing a new contract somewhere else. It is crazy. He's played that scenario a hundred times in his head. You know, probably since the end of the season. So he's thinking about places to play next year. He's thinking about maybe being in a different scenario. So, you know, whether it's Nashville, whether it's Vegas, whether it's Seattle, like players have to program themselves to understand that this is a crazy business. And you just can't assume that, you know, you're gonna be with one team your whole career. So yes, I would think very strongly that he's probably considered Nashville before things went a little crazy there with the free agency. And there's other places that he's envisioning, but at no time does he have a crystal ball here to figure out where he's gonna be as early as training camp, Christmas or the trade deadline. So there's spots that he's thinking about. There's no question. Listen, Ryan O'Reilly, you know, it's the world of Ms. Marner, it's just, this happens all the time, you know, current players, former players, everybody gave their two cents on what the team needs or who they should go after. And Ryan O'Reilly would be no different in Nashville with what was an opportunity maybe to push Ms. Marner before they went hunting for Stant Coast in March or so. - Kipper, just as a follow-up on that. Do you think the longer this, I don't want to say drags on. As more days and time lapses here in the off season, you think that decreases the odds that they, you know, of a Mitch Marner trade? Like, how do we interpret the way in which the off season has begun for the Leafs and how that relates to what they potentially think of the idea of trying to convince Mitch Marner to wave as no trade and potentially entertain a trade somewhere? - Well, first of all, the relief management was as disappointed as any fan and understood that there has to be some changes after getting knocked out in the first round by Boston. So, of course, they entertained the thought of moving on for Mitch. But they had no idea what that meant in terms of how easy or how hard it could be. So, we're not dumb. We know that they're out there and that name is being thrown around. But what's perception and reality are two different things here? There was no market at the draft for Mitch Marner. Like, if we all, you know, forget about the rumors or what's out there in social media, if the three of us sat down and we looked at 31 other teams, we'd have a hard time picking a team right now that would take on Mitch Marner. So, you know, it's not out there. It's not out there today and it doesn't appear that it's gonna be out there tomorrow. So, where are we in August? Where are we in September, Christmas and the trade deadline? Does something come up to the surface? Is there a team that needs to push the Leafs to say, I wanna crack at this guy, I wanna get... I wanna get, I wanna take a run at him early. Can I talk to his agent? Can I work out a long-term deal with him and is he willing to come here? That's where it needs to go for Mitch Marner trade and that hasn't surfaced yet. Yeah, still a ways away from that, certainly. Last one, then we'll let you go, Kipper. Yani Hakompa, a Leaf, at least in theory. I don't think they've made it official yet, but we all seem to think he's gonna sign this two year, one and a half million dollar deal. The Dallas Stars, you had this in your piece. Steve Simmons mentioned this as well. We're not, I believe the term was used was a degenerative knee issue. That certainly sounds scary. Now, John Klingberg, it was only one year, but he made four and a half million dollars. Is this gonna be Klingberg all over again? And do you think it's a bet that's worth taking given the relatively low dollar on it? Yeah, first, yeah, it might be worth the risk because he is a beast out there. He's so big. It's something that the Leafs desperately need. So I was told that the Leafs are very comfortable with where they are with his situation moving forward. Thus, the two year deal. So everybody's got different opinions on sometimes what can be perceived from their medical teams. So it appears that he's comfortable enough. It was a player to think that he can manage whatever situation he's had or will continue to have with the knee. But, you know, there's not a lot of D out there, especially at that size. And we know that they couldn't afford the door off. So I'm okay with taking a chance on this guy. But you just hope that whatever issues he had in March, that kept him out of the playoffs for Dallas. It's over with and the Leafs, again, were comfortable enough to know the situation and still have the confidence to sign him. So I'm okay rolling the dice on this guy. Yeah, he's massive. And God, if he can play, yeah, certainly be something that I'm sure Craig Barouba would like having in the fold and definitely Brad your living will. Kipper, as I said, great job all year long. Even McKee, the three of you did a great job. And we look forward to reading you every Thursday in the star as well. Thanks, man. Really appreciate it, you guys. - Thank you so much. - There he goes. Nick Kiprios, that insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect X-Men's online in in the showroom, visit DonValleyNorthlexus.com. I think this is where I kind of land on the Hawkenpaw stuff is however you feel about Ryan O'Reilly's contract and your, their ability to bury most of that or whatever. Ryan O'Reilly and, or sorry, not Ryan O'Reilly. Got him out in the brain. Ryan Reeves, you know, it's like he's there. He's in the lineup, he's not in the lineup. If they have to bury the last year of it, I think we all understand, it's like, okay, they can bury up to a mill, 300K on the books, not going to kill them. If this guy can be what they think, the one and a half certainly isn't going to, isn't going to use them either. And this will shock you in the NHL. There are going to be teams that would be happy to take on dead cap money for some smallish asset. I know they don't want to get in the business of doing that and it shouldn't be for a player like that. But I also think it's a very worthwhile gamble to take. And this is, is what your living wants. Like, if you were okay with Kyle Dubas taking gambles on Dennis Malgin, because, hey, there's some skill in there. And who knows? This is Tre, this is Trelevix version of it. It's like, maybe he can't skate ever again at the NHL level. Maybe that's certainly what appeared to have happened with John Klingberg, right? But he wants to try this out. Now, Hawkenbob, very different player than Klingberg. I think the other thing that bodes well to this is he is brought in to do a job, yes. But Klingberg was brought in to fix the power play. That's certainly a bigger job than be a good third pair of defensemen. You can find the other third pair of defensemen. The idea of going out and finding a power play quarterback, as we know here, very, very hard to do. So I think that's the other difference of it as well. - Yeah, I think, you know, in the case of Klingberg, that was one of their marquee additions. And so that- - First thing that did? - Literally, like on, on July 1st, that was a priority ad, it seemed, based on the decision-making process and how it lined up, this is vastly different from that. I think this is a more logical, calculated risk, and you're comfortable with the possibility. If it doesn't work out, it's okay. Also, given just a sheer volume of moves that they've made on the back end over the last five days or so, they are clearly in a much better position in terms of the depth of their blue line. So if there isn't something that arises, we're talking about like, you know, we need to remember, of course, that like, Timothy Lilligren is penciled in on the blue line somewhere because of the contract, but who knows if he's going to have a role or how frequently he's going to be playing? That's part of this equation. And so, how can pause one of those options? Philip Myers, who they saw, like there are different guys that they've gone out and added to fortify, not just the front end of that blue line in terms of the guys that they're gonna lean on, but the overall depth to feel better about the options that they have waiting in the wings if there's an injury, if there's a scenario where a guy's underperforming. And I think that goes back to the point. Clearly, they prioritize that as an area to address and not just address, but overhaul it in a big way. And they've done that. So I think this is one that makes a lot of sense in terms of if it works out, you'll probably be very pleased and it'll be a bargain. It'll be considered a home run of assigning if he is half the player that we've seen at times, those are the Dallas stars. And if it goes the opposite way, it's okay, you can live with that. - Yeah, you certainly can. I think that's the biggest thing of it. And I think you also have to look at this. Now, obviously, these are different players and one is a health issue. The other is, I mean, not being able to find time in Anaheim of all places, but this guy who found Simone Benoit for nothing. Last offseason, right? - Absolutely. - And I think we had times because of how, I mean, terrible. Quite honestly, the loose decor has been at times. We overstated what Benoit was, but that was an excellent find to get him signed to that contract. I mean, him and McMahon basically on the exact same deal, kind of the exact same find of a player in terms of where they fit in the lineup. Maybe they could play higher, the higher they get though, you're go, we probably want to upgrade that, but I like having you here. - You start to squint a little bit. - You start to squint a little bit, certainly. And Hock and Pie think could be a very, very high-end version of that. - For sure. - The best version of him, this is a gem. This is a steal. And it's not even about the regular season games you get out of them, right? They're gonna have bodies. We've seen this before. There will be guys that kind of filter in and out of the lineup. It's about if he's there, come April. - It makes you think, why would a player like that of that archetype with the size that he possesses? And as Kipper mentioned, they don't grow on trees like that. Those guys are few and far between in the NHL. That's why they took this risk. Why is he signing for one and a half million dollars a season, right? Like there's a reason for that. That's part of what you're signing up for, right? So if it works out, you're gonna look like a genius. It's okay. There's always the opposite part of the equation that we need to consider. And the Leafs are clearly comfortable. But I think part of him being available at that price point is the idea that, hey, you never know, there might be something here that is problematic and you gotta live with it. - Now I will say, let's say the worst comes to roost with this and the stars were right. How big of a red flag does that raise for you about the Leafs medical team? - Not because of this one issue, because clearly-- - No, there's a history of-- - People felt differently about Klingberg-Lassoff season. The state he ended up in by January having the surgery. That didn't surprise, I mean, there were some people, I'm sure. I don't think the Leafs were the only team that would have given them that deal or they wouldn't have gotten a four and a half million dollars. That's why it got up there. Because there were certainly other teams willing to make that bet. But if this is two off seasons in a row where you go, "No, no, no, we're gonna do this ag. Everyone else is wrong." I don't think this is the least need to fire their doctors or clean house or anything. But, I mean, we talk about the thing we talk about with the Leafs, and Lord knows, if you've listened to me ever talk, I complain about the cap. There's no cap on all that other stuff. That's the stuff that they are supposed to be truly the, and not that every team in the NHL isn't striving to do that. But guess what? If someone else is doing it better, you can pay to get 'em. You can do that. So that is where, if you're gonna live in this world where you're flipping a third round pick to try to get a little incrementally better, that's the stuff that has to be better too. And I don't say this to I certainly do not know enough about being a doctor or sports medicine to tell you what those guys or girls are doing right or wrong or whatever it is. But I think that would be a little jarring if back-to-back loss season just said, "No, no, no, no, no, we're smarter "than everyone else and you approved otherwise." And I just think that's something to kind of watch. - I think my perspective would be more aligned with that view if it was, and I'm gonna use this example. You know, the Detroit Red Wing sign, Patrick Kane, last year. That was a risk. It's a gamble coming off a major surgery at that age. Ends up working out for them because he was a productive player. If the Leafs would have gone down that road, let's say, a player of that ilk where you're committing a, you're making a more significant commitment to the player. And now you're penciling that guy into fulfill a fairly significant role on your team. All of a sudden, while we come to realize he can't skate anymore or there's a physical issue that is preventing him from being even remotely close to the type of player that you thought you were getting, I'd be more concerned. Klingberg, yes, I agree. We can even point to Matt Murray as a potential example of this as well, although different front office in terms of the guys making those decisions of who to sign. But because it's not a, I will say Klingberg in my estimation will be an isolated incident. This is more of a calculated risk that I think is measured and justified. And even if there are a couple red flags on that profile, that medical profile, they weighed that as part of the decision. Counterpoint, maybe they just have a blind spot with Nordic defenseman. Klingberg, Swedish, Hawken, Pough, Finnish, I don't know. We'll have to see. I'm joking, kind of. You mentioned long-term commitment there. Is it time for the Blue Jays to put a ring on it with Laddie? And we love a hook in this business, so he was named an all-star starter. That's as good a reason as I need to give him buckets of money, I guess. Last Caitlin McGrath about that, when we wrapped things up here. Fan Morty Show with Gunna Goudiniele on SportsNet 5.90, the fan. The best Blue Jays show out there, period. Blair and Barker, be sure to subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Fan Morning Show, last segment here, I have got to the point of my not-work week, but just work in general with the vacation looming, where I'm like counting down segments, counting down shows. So, yeah, weekends almost upon us as well. Like, we got a whole day, especially if you're listening. You've been, like, fist-fighting the gardener all morning, just in an absolute bloodbath with me. I just saw, I'm not, that's inside. Yeah, no, that's okay. Courtesy of Josh Santos, I saw a Tweet pop-up from the OPP. Oh, no. Where they were asking, and I'm going to pull it up just to make sure I'm going to confirm. They are asking drivers to not drive the wrong way up a ramp or do a reverse or you turn on highway ramp. Don't do that, right? It seems pretty straightforward. I mean, that's called driving. That is called driving. All right, if you can do it, if you can't get off the road, and don't, somebody were very, very happy. No comments on driving. Just happy to join, be joined by Kaitlyn McGrath. I haven't talked to her in forever. Kaitlyn, how are you doing on this wonderful Thursday morning? I'm good, how are you? Doing well, doing well. You know, maybe it's for the best for our friendship or at least our radio friendship that we haven't had to talk about the Blue Jays, 'cause you know, like I like to talk about happy things and fun, certainly hasn't been the way this Jay's season has trended again, just since we haven't talked, what has your kind of general take on the, I wouldn't call it the yo-yo nature of the season, but like false promises nature of the season. It seems like every time there's an incremental building of, yeah, maybe this is going to turn around. Ultimately, something just happens to kind of sink this team, be it an injury, be it a dip in performance. Well, what have you made of the season as a whole so far, Kaitlyn? I mean, it's been disappointing. I think that's one word to describe it. Underwhelming, underachieving, uninspired, like all these, you know, not great words to describe. Yeah, a lot of fun, yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, I think how you look at this season, it looks like the Blue Jays were coming into this season, kind of with the hope or with the plan or with the strategy of like, if everything goes right for us, we'll be a good team. And ultimately, not much has gone right. And I would say a lot has gone wrong for the Blue Jays. And that's really sunk though. You talk about, you know, a lineup that was very sluggish to start, basically for the first, I would say two and a half months, they weren't hitting outside of a few handful of guys. We've seen some of the veterans that we've known on this team for a while, you know, be cut loose. We've seen guys on the margin not being able to get the job done. We've seen, you know, Alec Manoa go out for the full season after getting elbow surgery. There's been other inconsistencies with the starting 15, although it's been pretty good lately, then the bullpen has completely fallen apart too. I mean, I've written a few times that, you know, it's bad when the four relievers that led the team in appearances. The previous year are not with the team right now. So obviously, Jordan Romano, we get the news yesterday that he had surgery on his elbow to fix a right elbow impingement. So his season is kind of in doubt at this point. Won't be able to even play catch for six weeks. Jimmy Garcia is on the aisle. He's at least making his way back. And then Tim Maysa and Eric Swanson, you know, not on the team, Maysa DFA was pretty surprising, although sort of understandable and Eric Swanson just kind of falling apart too and isn't a minor league. So you look at the roster, you look at the section of the team, you want to choose it and you can kind of point to reasons why, you know, this has gone wrong for the Blue Jays. - I think Caitlin this season has been a healthy reminder that hope is in a strategy. There's got to be maybe a little bit more to it 'cause you laid it out perfectly there. If this goes right, if that goes the way we think it should, if this transpires, if there's growth here, and sometimes it's just, it's part of the process, certainly, but at a certain point, you know, you need a little bit more bonafides on occasion than just hoping for growth or hoping for bounce backs here and there, and that's sort of been what this season has encapsulated for the Toronto Blue Jays. I, you know what, there is a positive story at least here and one that has developed and matured over the last few weeks, and that being the resurgence of Vladimir Guerrero Jr., he's looked like, you know, the old Vlad and has been very, very productive at the Blake, particularly showing more power and doing more damage in the biggest areas, hitting to all fields and obviously, occasionally hitting the ball over the fence, which has been something that at times he has eluded him over the last few seasons, now being named a starter for the All-Star game, third time in his career, fourth time overall that he'll be an All-Star. I guess, how do we, how should we evaluate the Vlad stock right now? Like in terms of what it means for his future, this version of Vlad that we're currently seeing, what does it say about what his future with this franchise might entail? What it might look like for even contract negotiations or those discussions come the off season? - Yeah, I mean, it's great to see Vlad playing as well as he is right now. I think that everybody around Vlad, everybody around the team, everybody around the league kind of knows that this has always been within him. And we've seen it for sustained stretches in the past. Obviously 2021 is the season that stands out in terms of him basically playing at his best or what we kind of knew to be his best in. He's been pretty close to that this year. As you said, in the last number of weeks, the production is finally starting to turn to power too. And he's kind of putting it all together. And it's been a really sustained stretch for him now. I think that there was a few slow weeks to start. But basically from the end of April, I think he's been getting on base consistently. And then again, in June, he kind of finally turned the corner in terms of being able to hit for power. And so, it's actually really interesting timing. I mean, looking at Vlad's perspective, it's great timing for him because I think coming into the season, the main question around Vlad was, is Vlad a very good player, the guy that he has been in 2022 and 23? Or is he a great slash potentially generational player, the guy that he was in 2021? And so, now I think we're seeing him show again, that flash and he can be a great player. He can be one of the best hitters in all of baseball. And so it's good timing for him because I think that the more he puts that together, the more he'll obviously get paid. And obviously there might be still some uncertainty. I think he has to do it for the rest of the season and sustain that kind of production. But ultimately, it's been good for him. It's a really interesting question for the team too. I mean, you laid it out in terms of, he could be a player that the Blue Jays build around. So the Blue Jays could go out to him this offseason and say, here's your money. We wanna sign you for eight years or 10 years and we're gonna continue to build around you. They could also look at him and say, well, maybe we could trade him at his peak right now. He still has a year and a half remaining of team control. Maybe you got a huge package for him and you start to, if not completely rebuild this team, start to retool it, start to bring in more use, start to build up your farm system, which has already dropped to the bottom third of the majors right now. And so Vlad's a very interesting player right now to watch. Personally, I don't think they'll trade him. I just think that it would be kind of devastating to the franchise. I mean, I think that I lean more towards maybe the team needs to consider building around him further and moving some other guys on the team. But I do think I could make the argument for both sides and I think it's something that obviously it's probably being discussed right now within the Blue Jays fun office. Yeah, it's like there's going scorched earth and there's going truly scorched earth, which would be trading Vlad. And you know, this is, you've hit on something there that I've kind of hammered home is that, you know, it's honestly, we talk about Vlad and Bo, like there are two P's in a pod. And you know, they are in terms of what they've been for team success, but we also can't lie to ourselves in terms of the vision of like what the Blue Jays have ultimately been selling this entire time. And it's been with Vlad at the tip of the spear in terms of what he was going to be to the lineup, but also what he was going to be for the franchise. This guy, unless Shohei Otani came a calling was going to be the face of baseball in this country for the better part of two decades. That's the way everybody involved wanted it. That's the way Vlad wanted it. That's the way the franchise wanted it. And it's just such a departure to kind of pull the trigger going away from that. That the place I think they ultimately end up at here. And whether this is a this trade deadline discussion or whether this is an Aussies in discussion or a little bit of both is, I think they do go pretty scorched earth. And Kevin Gosman, bye bye. Chris Bassett, bye bye, Kakuchi, bye bye. But Barrios can still be here on his big deal. And Vlad can still be here on a big deal that he signs. 'Cause I think that even if you do go scorched earth and you can talk about all the years of control and prospects you want, people still need to be able to touch something. And the idea of like Arjun Nomala, the first round pick from last year. And it's like, just wait till he's 24. It's only five years away. People are not on board for that. And that's why I think the most likely outcome of all of this is trading away a bunch of the guys that we talk about, but extending Vlad and giving him buckets of money. And I think, I mean, this part goes without saying, they're thrilled that he's making that a relatively easy decision for them with his play this year. - Yeah. And I think, you know, to your point too, I think that Vlad, more than anyone on this team, to some extent has kind of embraced the idea of being faced to the franchise. I mean, I think that, I think that Vlad has the sort of personality that matches it. I think that he plays the game with the sort of joy. And I think that he's always, looks like he kind of wants to be the guy. I think that he's embraced being the guy. And while he's not always sort of come up big in those moments and he's not always delivered, or at least from the fans perspective, I think that sometimes he's been maybe a frustrating player to root for because you kind of know the potential and he's not living up to it. But certainly, this year, it looks like he is maybe the years in the League have helped him. He's had more experience. He's kind of found his game again and sort of knows what to do. And obviously, it's gonna take more adjustments and stuff like that. I'm not saying it's solved forever. But certainly, it looks like he's figured it out again. And I think that he kind of is just a natural for that type of guy that you build around. And I think that he's talked about in the past wanting to be a guy that could play for one team for his entire career. I think that's something that would mean a lot to him and something special. And I think that he's kind of embraced the idea of re-signing with Toronto. And he obviously has a special connection with the team and the country. Obviously, he was born here. So I think that if you're looking at like sort of a marketing or branding perspective, I think that he is a smart guy to continue to build around. And yeah, I mean, I like your point, your broader point too. I mean, I don't know if they'll trade their entire rotation, but I do think that we're half the rotation, I guess. But I do think that two of the three that you mentioned, Kakuchi Bassett and Gosman could very well be gone. I think Kakuchi's probably foregone conclusion that he's gone. And then Bassett, very interesting, having a great year, one more year of control. Gosman, I don't know, like, Gosman's got two more years of control, I think. So, you know, what do you do with those three? I think that you laid it out well. I think that you could move all of them. I don't know that they necessarily will, but I do, just because like the starting depth with the team isn't great. So I don't know, you might just put yourself in a position where you've got to sign a bunch of starters in the off season, especially with Manoa not being able to pitch next year, at least for the start of the year. So it's interesting, we just have a lot of options. That's the one good thing. I mean, once they admit to themselves, and maybe they already have privately and just have it publicly, but once they admit to themselves that they are going to be sellers at the deadline, they're one of the primary teams that has a ton of talent. I mean, they're going to be driving the trade deadline in terms of the number of players that they can move, both position players and starting pitchers and relievers. I mean, they're going to be the team that everybody is going to be calling. - We were, it's funny you mentioned that, because we were chatting with John Marosi earlier and he basically outlined the exact same thing, that if the J's definitively reach a point where they're saying, okay, you know what? We're declaring, we're sellers. Open season, let's have discussion on a variety of different guys. They could be one of the biggest actors in terms of dictating what the trade deadline looks like. And so that'll be interesting. And speaking of trades and I think a natural pivot point when it comes to the Vlad discussion then goes over to shortstop with Boba Shat, who's struggling mightily this season. And I think that actually kind of complicates things a little bit in terms of getting some clarity on what the future might be for Bo in a Blue J's uniform. You know, we had a conversation Gunnar and I did earlier this week with Ben Nicholson Smith. And I had to fully consider this as, I mean, obviously it's a possibility, but it felt like there was a need for clarity, at least by this off season. Hey, is he staying? Are you trading him? What does it look like? Ben proposed, hey, you know what? Given how he's performed, you kind of got to just leave him and let him be. And it feels like we're probably going to head into 2025. We're still a fair number of questions surrounding Boba Shat and the likelihood of him being in a J's uniform, at least to start next season. - Yeah, I would agree with Ben's assessment because I think just, you know, you also really look at the numbers that Bo have put up this year just very unlike himself, especially at the plate. And I think that it wouldn't be wise to trade him right now because you're probably trading him at a low, right? I mean, everybody knows the potential of Bo, everybody knows his track record and what he's done. But ultimately the numbers on, you know, his stat line this year are, you know, very underwhelming. And so I don't know that a team's going to come and blow you away with a package for him because they're going to point to the numbers and say, well, you know, this is a guy that's been below average all year, like, you know, we're not going to pay an arm and a leg for him. So I think that, yeah, I would agree that it's probably in a position where you're going to leave Bo put. And maybe that was the plan all along. Again, you'll go back to the conversation, you know, it's his team built around flat or Bo or both of them. Maybe the team still has some time to decide about, decide regarding that just because, again, like it really doesn't make much sense to trade him right now because I don't think you'll be getting full value for him. Maybe in the off season, things reset a little bit. You can get a little bit more for him or maybe you just go into next season and you say, okay, we'll, we'll reach you a little bit. We'll move some of our starters. We'll see what we get back for them and see if we can kind of quickly pivot and make next year competitive year with Bo Vlad still in their final year of team control and go for it again. - Yeah, it'll be interesting. And obviously, like a flatty extension, if it comes at, I think it colors the decision one way or another in this moment. I don't know which way, but I'll be honest, it's going to impact their decision one way or another. Caitlin, great getting to chat with you again. Thanks so much for taking some time. - Yeah, of course, and enjoy your vacation coming up. - Oh, thank you, Caitlin. I can't wait. There she goes. Caitlin, the graph, love reading her work. Blue Jays and MLB writer for The Athletic. You check out her work there. Jay's, of course, back at it this afternoon. - Yes. - America's birthdays, we got a one o'clock game. I mentioned this off the top of the show. I am floored that they have a team here on the 4th of July. You could have worked the schedule. So a series ended with a Canada Day game on Monday. And then the Jay's could have been somewhere else. I mean, like, I'm happy, I'm thrilled. But I mean, if you're the Houston Astros, you got to be less than thrilled about not having a game at home on the 4th of July. I mean, and again, it's like, I don't know why I think of Houston as like a more American place than others, but I mean-- - Texas. - Pew Pew, like honestly, like, why is there not a game in Texas on the 4th of July? - Well, you have to see, I actually don't know if the Rangers are home today. - That's a great point. - Don't know if that's the case, but you don't know your point is well made. It is interesting, look at the schedule and how it lined up because you're thinking that the Yankees and the Rangers are home this afternoon, by the way. But the Yankee series ends on a Sunday instead of it just maybe going into the holiday or whatever. This ends up being not a three game series against Houston before games, and guess where the Jay's are going tomorrow? Where? They're going to Seattle for their annual little experience. - Oh, they're favorite. - So why, I know it's a big trip always, but you know, it is interesting that on America's birthday, we've got a game here in Canada. - There's also just no appeasing me though, 'cause I pulled up the Rangers schedule and they're hosting the Padres. - That's pretty disrespectful to the military on the 4th of July. All those troops out in San Diego, what are they going to do? Oh, whatever it is they do every other day, 'cause it's apparently the most perfect place on Earth. - Oh, yes. - Fun, fun show today, tomorrow's show. Gonna have a very different tenor, a lot less Leafs. I was about to say I promise, but like I am who I am, we'll see. But big Canada soccer day tomorrow, we're going to be gearing up, no Tae Jean Buchanan, but as you've told me, I'm choosing to believe you blindly. The boys will be galvanized by it. Martian as men will be ready to go. - I like that. - We'll be talking about that plenty tomorrow, but again, this afternoon, Blue Jays back at it against the strobes, it's been a weird Jay's conversation as of late. We keep waiting for something to drop here, and I think that's just kind of the place we kind of find ourselves in now, between now and the deadline. - Stop fluctuating, win one, lose one, like let's get, you know, let's get some clarity here. I think in a couple of weeks we will, but you know, we're still in that holding pattern right now. - Yeah, we'll continue to talk about it until we're not. It's been a fun show today. Thanks so much to the guys behind the glass. Thanks to everybody who joined us. Bunk's coming up next. It's been the Fan Morning Show, SportsNet 5.9 of the Fan. - Good morning. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (dramatic music)
