(upbeat music) We're back on Canucks Central here in the Kintec Studio Dan Racho Satyar. Shah, we got the draft on Friday. Canucks may not have a pick until Saturday. Well, not may not. They don't. As of right now, they do not have a pick until Saturday. Day two. That is a fact. We're day twoers here. Yes, we're day twoers here. And not even in the second round. We gotta wait until the third round. We show up late on day two. That is the cost of going to the second round of the Stanley Cup playoffs for the Vancouver Canucks. But let's get into the draft with one of the best in the business covering the draft to Shane Malloy, hockey prospect, radio on Sirius XM and NHL draft coverage is brought to you by oxygen yoga and fitness, not your typical yoga studio. Thanks for the Shane. How are you? - Gentlemen, I'm great. Yeah, I was outside and I got back into the hotel so I didn't catch on fire. So, so good. - So how hot is it in Vegas right now? - It is 43. - Oh my goodness. - Self, yeah. - But it's a dry heat. You know, it's not as bad. - It is a dry heat and I'm okay with that. I don't mind the heat at all. If it's dry, this is great. So I'll never complain. - Are you a AC in the casino guy or at the pool with the drink guy? - No, I'm at the pool with the drink. - Nice. - For sure. Now, I work in the casino industry for quite some time so it doesn't mean they don't play cards, but if I get the chance to go sit by the pool, I'm going to do it. - Sounds like the life right now. It's going to be an interesting week at the sphere and the draft on Friday in Vegas. Shane Malloy joining us, hockey prospect, radio on Sirius XM. So what is this week like for you? I guess it's just a culmination of all the work you've put in watching these prospects all year long. - Yeah, I get draft prep done early. I'm staring at the binders of information I have to have because we do this show live from the draft floor with Steve Cooley, some Scott Laughlin. So I'm the analyst, so I have to have everything prepped. So whether it's player profiles or scouting reports or tactical reports or, yeah, a lot of summaries, a lot of historical information on each individual teams and what they do, what they tend to make decisions on. So it's going to be interesting with the Vancouver Canucks and not to just, you know, I guess, disappoint or feel, you know, the fans should be negative as they say this, but if you look at the historical numbers of the Vancouver Canucks in the third ground, they're not good. So if you look from '06 to '15, or you add on that all the way to 2020, currently they're one for nine in the third round. So they're around 11.11% a chance of getting a player. Based on his, their historical numbers, now the staff has changed a lot, so you can't really go by that, but, you know, that's about half of what the league averages, so hopefully cross our fingers through the Vancouver Canucks and they find somebody in 93. - What do you think in this draft, and it always depends on who's available, but like at 93, considering how few draft picks they have, would they be better off trading down to try to get an extra pick or two and in the fourth or fifth round? - No, no. They should actually trade their fourth to seventh rounds and try to get more third round picks of it again, because it only gets worse as the draft goes down. So I'll give you like a crazy stat. So if you look at the numbers from the fourth to seventh rounds, on average, only 15 players will play more than 200 games. So go through the fourth to seventh rounds and pick out 15 guys and see if you're right about six years later, 'cause that's really what it is. So when I hear people on the draft, you know, floor or, you know, where the media isn't saying, that's a great fifth round pick, I'm like, really? Because, you know, like, based on probability, historical, you know, historical numbers, that's not even remotely accurate. So that's, you're basically crossing your fingers, and it's crazy because only 58 players on average from the salary cap era have played 200 games or more in the NHL. So it's barely two rounds worth of players. So that just tells you how difficult the job is for amateur scouting and player development is. And if any time anybody says it's easy, it's not. It's the hardest job in hockey, and I think all the scouts should get paid way more money. - Yeah, I guess that's why they've had conversations about shortening the draft to five rounds, and I guess giving players a little bit more, in that range, a little bit more control over what their future looks like. - Yeah, I wouldn't have a problem if they went to four rounds. I would not have a problem. Because on average, an NHL teams draft list is somewhere between 85 to 90. Yeah, or even 75 to 90. 90 would be a really long, big draft list. And that's a big year. And so if an average team is about 80, 85 players max, so and that's pushing it. So from that perspective, I'd have no problem if they went to four rounds. - So, we just talked about it. Canucks don't have a pick until the third round. What do you see teams prioritizing when they do get into the later rounds? Are they looking for certain traits? Are you looking for one skill that potentially a player can build an NHL career around? What do teams look for when they are drafting later on? - I mean, certainly they're gonna look for as many attributes that they think are gonna be NHL transferable. So they're trying to find one, hopefully two, late. But one is probably most likely. And then they should look at historical data to see what type of players actually make it out of the later rounds, like whether it's a defensive or a forward, but more specifically what point style, whether the defensive defenseman or the more two-way gritty forwards, really dig into the types of players that make it through and are more accepting of a role. And that's one of the biggest issues we find when we get players that get out of junior hockey and they've had this identity for so long, but it doesn't translate. What they did in junior is a second line forward that they're not gonna be a second line forward in the NHL. So can you adapt and change your identity and accept a different role? And the players that are more willing to do that have a much greater chance of playing in the NHL. And if you can find a player like that who has those personality traits, then those are the players that I would target because it's just gonna be so much easier for them in the developmental years to move over because you talk to the kids and sometimes you're watching them as a player and you look at their identity and you speak to them and it's not even remotely close of what reality is to them. And I'm like, oh god bless your little heart but you're not drugged out. And you don't play like him. So you may wanna reevaluate that. Now I certainly don't say that to them publicly or privately because I don't think that's my place to do so but I certainly make a note of the players who really understand who they are as players but then who they are as people. - Yeah, and I think that's a big part of it. And I think the Canucks, what they've kind of at least prioritized last year or later rounds was those types of players, the guys that are smart, guys that understand what they need to do and hope that at least one or two perhaps crack through. Now as far as this year's draft is concerned, we all know who's going first, Macklin Celebrini. No matter what Mike Greer may try to say to dissuade us from that fact, we know he is going first overall. The question really begins at number two. Do you have a sense of who is going to be the second overall pick? I know the defensement loves Shunov's a guy that has got a lot of steam in terms of being that player but do you have a sense of who should or perhaps will it go second? - Well, my personal preference is with Shunov but I would not be shocked at dead enough, goes there. And if they do take him there, I just shrug my shoulders and go, okay, I totally understand why Chicago would take him at that spot. And it's one of the misconceptions on list, not mock drafts but draft lists. And when players go say there's a consensus amongst the list and the player goes five spots sooner or five spots later than the consensus, honestly it's irrelevant. Five to seven spots in the first round is not relevant. So there's no reason to jump up and down and yell and scream. Now if it's 20 spots or 25 spots, now that's pretty significant. Then once you get into sort of the late second round and beyond, if one team has a player 20 spots different than a consensus, that is also irrelevant. It's really not that big of a deal. So for me, it's about looking back. I go back and look at my list, what it was five or six years ago, how many players played 200 games? And if the answer is 60, then how many of those players did I have in my top 60? And that's what I grade myself on and I try to improve that every year because if you pick what player went to what team, okay, that's nice, but it's not. It doesn't give you any value in terms of understanding how much better you're going to get. You're just kind of like guessing and throwing darts at a dart board and open for the best. - I know there's, like every year there seems to be a lot of talk about the first overall pick. And maybe a lot of that talk has already happened and we've just known Macklin celebration is going number one. For a long time, but just how good is Macklin celebrating? And is it another, well, how much of a franchise type changing player is this? Is he more Connor Badard than he is your ice left Cofsky to compare the last two first overall picks? How good is Macklin celebrating to you? - If it was my choice, I'd take Macklin over both of those. - Wow. - Even over Badard, I would. And it's nothing against Connor Badard because he's like an incredibly talented player who is, you know, offensively a dynamo. But my preference is always to find a player that can play in every situation. And that's the advantage that Celebrini has is because his off puck play is so mature for that age group. It was so impressive to watch him without the puck against college age players. You're not playing against 17, 18 natural players in the CHL. He's playing on average against players that are like 21, 22, bigger, stronger, faster. And he handled himself defensively off the puck. It was very, very impressive. And I say that because it's such a transferable skill. And then you look at, say if you're a forward and a week forward, you're playing 20 minutes a game. Well, how many minutes do you actually have the puck in that 20 minutes? Is that 5%? So then if that's the case, that's 5% to 7%. And what do you do in the other 93% to 95% of the time when you don't have the puck in your stick? Because that's the difference between winning and losing and the playoffs. Because we look so much at a regular season. And we forget what the playoffs are like. And then we're reminded again of what the players are, playoffs are actually like and what type of players you need to help you win in the playoffs. So I would put Celebrini as a more offensive Niko Heesher in that respect and a bigger body in that respect. So I'm really impressed with his overall growth. And also I don't know if enough has been made, honestly, about how incredible his season was at the NCAA level for a 17-year-old. Like what he did, it's pretty much unprecedented. 100%. He's not playing against 17, 18, 90-year-old and some 20-year-olds in the CHL. I'm not disparaging against the CHL. It's just such a big difference in age group when you're playing in hockey east. And the average player is 21 years of age. And then you're going to be playing against guys that are 22 and 23. And they may not be obviously the skill to Celebrini, obviously, but playing against bigger, stronger, more mature players, well, that's like the best that CHL players going to play against is the 20-year-old. Well, three years development is massive, is massive. So in that respect, I think it says something about his ability to just dominate not only just offensively, but how well he played defensively. And to me, that says everything. And I think sometimes, and I'm a Canadian, so we all have biases towards the CHL, but when you look at players that play in college hockey that are freshmen, that put up numbers like Celebrini did or Zee Buoyam or Artium Lushunov against college-level players in tough conferences, it becomes even more impressive of what they've done. So I think a player that a lot of people have on their radar, maybe because of the name, but also because of the season that he just had. But Tejuginla with Kelowna has just been probably one of the biggest riser through draft boards that I've followed through the course of the season. Just how good is this player? And is he like his father or is he a much different player than his father was? He's a little bit different than his father in, you look, we don't have the traditional powerboards anymore. They just don't, unless you're a Tejug or a Tom Wilson, those players are really rare, but he's more of a hybrid power forward. He's a primary shooter. He certainly can play at the center position. He did that prior to going to the Western Hockey League. I know this year he's gonna go back to playing center. And I think one of the differences is if he does play center at the NHL level, it's just gonna increase his value. So that may change how teams view him and where he slots in. Now, I wasn't sure 100% when I put my list together, so I had that ninth overall, whether he was gonna play center, but if I knew definitively he was, then I'm gonna have to push him up. I'd have to put him into that in that seven, six, maybe even five range as a player, because he's a playoff style player. And I covet those guys much higher than I do of the highly skilled players who get you through the regular season, then sort of peter out a little bit in the playoffs. He's a playoff style player. And that really impresses me. And he can play in the small area game. And once again, we see in the playoffs, those guys tend to flourish. - Well, in this year's draft, at least based on a lot of the rankings and projections, there are a number of defensemen in that top 15 range, even top 20 that are considered really good. Can we see a record number of defensemen goal in the top 10? - Certainly, and you know, if I look at my list, I go back, I have a high number of defensemen, probably more than anybody in that first round. So, you know, when I had Leschunovs and Sillyevd and Buoyam, then Dickinson, two to five, and then I had, you know, Adam Eurocheck at 10, but then I had Perrick and Yakum check at 11 and 12. You know, I'm not surprised. I wouldn't be surprised inside the top 20 that we have like nine defensemen goal. It's a really defensive heavy draft for, you know, the top first round. So I wouldn't terribly surprise me. And for me, if I projected defensemen who's gonna play first pairing or top three, I'm putting them ahead of the second line players, unless you're gonna be an absolute elite second line center, then I may consider that. But the value of top three defensemen specifically, if you look at how much they get made in free agency, how much they're valued in free agency, how much those players are valued when you get to the trade deadline, if you have a chance to draft one, take them. It's much easier to find like wingers in free agency or in the trade market, compared to those type of defensemen. So they should go high. - Well, that's kind of the conversation we had with the Canucks last year, when they ended up selecting Tom O'Lander at 11th overall. And, you know, it wasn't a great first year in the NCAA for Tom O'Lander necessarily. But, you know, the value of hitting on a right shot, right shot defensemen is always going to be greater than a winger, certainly with the way that the game has played. - Well, certainly when you can transport the puck and skate the puck like he can. And that's a significant add as well. So if he becomes a number three defenseman in your roster, then he's a linchpin for that whole defense core in that respect. So he could be potentially second unit of power play, maybe, but he's definitely first unit penalty kill and he's gonna be a matchup defenseman because his ability to take away time and space and how quickly he can retrieve pucks and transport and move the puck up the ice and be able to blow up, you know, really heavy forechecks. So he's the kind of player that you would try to use against the Florida Panthers, for example, and try to, you know, wreck that dominant forecheck that we saw in the playoffs. So it's just a different style of defensemen. And I cover defensemen more than I do wingers. So I have no problem with putting them higher. - In that respect, 'cause you're trying to build a Stanley Cup winning team. And for me, you build that with defense and goaltending. - Well, I'm kind of interested in that because, you know, I know not everybody, well, I mean, I've talked to a few people that said, well, Andrew didn't really pop this year at Boston University, at BU, but you feel different? - Yeah, he is. But if he was in the CHL, the kid probably would have 70, 60, 70 points on the blue line against his peer group. 'Cause he's not playing against his peer group in college hockey. He's playing against kids that are three, you know, two, three years, four years older than him, depending who he's playing against. So like that's a, it's sometimes it's apples to oranges when you're comparing against the college players. In that respect, it's not necessarily, they're always that much more skilled, but they're that much bigger, stronger, and more mature in their game. And that's a significant jump. And we see that happen, but the kids that come out of, you know, junior year in Canada or the USA, CHL, or out of the program, you know, some of them have a hard time in college hockey, and that's because of it. And if you don't see college hockey on a regular basis, sometimes you don't appreciate that difference in how much that is such a challenge, particularly for freshmen. - Well, everything we're here about him too, is how hard working he is, right? And like how he's gonna apply things. And I'd imagine a player that's playing his first year in the NCAA puts a good summer in. You can take a pretty big step next year, right? - Oh, massive, massive, you can. You know, it's an adjustment, because it's not like playing in the CHL again. I'm not like picking on the league. It's just that age difference and a maturity difference makes such a, that's a big jump. And I think sometimes this happens in the draft with European players who are playing against men, and they're trying to compare them against, oh, what would you do in a CHL? And the CHL player is getting love, but I said, well, he's also playing against boys. What are you doing if I threw that player in that CHL player up against players that were in the SHL in Sweden or League and Finland, for that matter, or in Germany? Like that's a hard road. So when these young kids out of Europe are getting the numbers that producing against men, then we have to remind ourselves that they're playing against men. - No, it's a great point. The final one for me on the draft itself, I'm curious to get your thoughts on Beckett Seneca, 'cause he's a guy that kind of divides opinion a little bit when I talk to people. Some people are super high on him, others. You know, like his talent, but aren't quite sure. Where do you come out on the kid? - Well, I have an 18th overall. And I mean, if you break down how my list works, that's not disparaging whatsoever. I'd like, I haven't projected as a second-line winger in the NHL, like that's where he should fit without any issues and could elevate himself into a first line. So that, you know, he has such immense talent and it should be projectable. I look at his frame. I mean, he doesn't have the big, like he's a bigger body, but he doesn't have a big frame. So I'm not sure how much more weight and power he's gonna be able to put onto that frame. So that was one of the reasons why I had him a little bit lower and I wasn't entirely convinced that he was gonna be able to be that first-line player. So, but look, very, very talented. I had 60 players who I thought were gonna play two in the games in the NHL and he's 18 out of that 60. So that says to me that, you know, obviously I have them, you know, rated very high and should be a second-line player in the NHL for a long time. - But before we let you go, Shane, you know, we're, the story of Rucker, McGrory, trying to, I don't know, force his way out of Winnipeg is probably not the right way of phrasing it, but he's not going to remain with the Winnipeg Jets. It would seem like, and we've seen it with Brock Faber, who was with the LA Kings and ends up in Minnesota, made it very known that he wanted to play for the Minnesota Wild, who saw it with Adam Fox. You know, there's certain NCAA players that have gone down this road. Is there some risk, I guess, in taking players that are headed for the NCAA route and do have the opportunity to potentially, you know, force their way to a situation that they're more comfortable in? - 100% there is. You know, there's the pushback from, and I pushed against the Russian factor, and I know a lot of people are saying, "Oh, it's gonna be hard to draft Russians," and I pushed against that narrative. And, you know, with the NCAA narrative, if you're a team, I would be asking that specific question. You know, if we draft you in this market, are you sunny with us? And look, I would make sure it's off the record. We're never gonna divulge and say that, you know, privately, I would probably prefer to go someplace else. And because the problem is you can draft a kid, and then a year or two later, they're pushing himself out the door, and the problem is now that everybody knows it, now that player's value in the marketplace is reduced, because people already know he doesn't wanna be there, so I'm not gonna give you the same value that he should. In that respect, and there is some still concerns with Rutgers skating in that respect, 'cause he's not the most legal foot, but will and determination and character, he's gonna play. But how effective he's gonna be with, you know, if the skating doesn't improve, that remains to be seen. But it's certainly, it's an issue. And if I'm an organization like Winnipeg, or you may be a Canadian marketplace or a marketplace that, you know, isn't as desirable, you have to consider that now. And you should talk about that inside your meetings, but with the kid and the agent, specifically before you draft them. - We always appreciate the time, Shane. Your insights are very valued here on this show, and always, thanks for this. Enjoy the rest of the week there in Las Vegas, and we'll be listening Friday night. - Thank you, gentlemen, and look, I'm gonna drive the show into the ditch, and thanks for you, Kevin Woodley, to bring it right back out again, 'cause he's the best in the business. - Thank you, yeah, we're getting Woodley up next. Thanks for this, Shane. - Take care, gentlemen. - There is Shane Malloy joining us here on Canuck Central. - Never enough time with Shane, hey? - No. - And 'cause like, you know, you kinda scratched the surface on the college of America. People talking about being scared of drafting Russians. - Yeah. - Like, you should be scared of drafting Americans. - Many kids. - We're scared of drafting Matt Faye Michkoff last year, and now he's going-- - Already. - Like, two, three years. - Like, two, three years for the Flyers, man. They got a guy who's, I mean, he-- - Second overall, with a bullet last year. - Insane. - If you know what you're getting. - Insane, like, we talked about this last year, like, I love watching Michkoff. - Yeah. - Like, I loved watching it, and I'm like, yeah, he's, you know, Bader's number one, but like, he's number two for me. Like, I love Carlson, too, and Fantelli's good, but like, he's gonna get airdrop and score 30 goals. He's doing it a year sooner, like, he's back, essentially just has to sit one year out, he's gonna be a 19-year-old next year with affiliates, insane, and it's the American kids, especially by certain markets in the U.S. and Canadian teams that draft them that find themselves in trouble. Like, that's the more troubling player to work things out with than drafting Europeans. Europeans, more often than not, eventually come over. - Yeah, and, you know, more and more players are going through the NCAA route, and look, there's a certain kind of talent that is able to force their way to situations, but with Adam Fox, you know, he wasn't our first round pick, right? And eventually, everybody just kinda knew whether it was Calgary who traded him, and then Carolina, who was not able to get him. It just, everybody kinda knew we saw it with Brock Faber, now you're seeing it with Rucker, McGroid, he cut her goat, he did it with the Philadelphia Flyers. Like, it can happen. - But we know what it is, it's actually players who have some confidence and have a leverage. They use their leverage. That's what happens, and, you know, these American kids, they're different mentality, I don't mean this in a negative way, like, and they've gone to college oftentimes too, they think the world a little bit differently, they see opportunity, and they use that opportunity to their advantage, which is what they should be doing. But like Shane mentioned, you better make sure you're on top of your homework when you draft these players. - And they don't have to necessarily play out the four years in college, like, if you let your team know that, "Hey, I'm not gonna sign with you." You know, they can trade you a lot earlier, like we've seen with Carter Goce, and of course, Rucker, McGordi, as well now with the Winnipeg Jets. All right, Dan Rachos, Satyar Shah, Kevin Woodley is going to join us. We go from Vegas to Hawaii with our next guest here on Canucks Central. That's coming up on Sports at 650. - Hey, it's Big Nizar. Have your say and join me on the People's Show with big takes and even bigger bets, weekdays, three to four on Sportsnet 650, or wherever you get your podcast. (upbeat music) - We're back on Canucks Central. Dan Rachos, Satyar Shah. Let's bring in our next guest. Live from the beautiful beaches of Waikiki, Kevin Woodley, a presentation of White Rock, Hyundai, and of course, our goalie guru here on the program every single Wednesday. What's happening, Woodley? - Well, you know, the only thing I like more than driving my Hyundai Ionic 5 or 6 from White Rock, Hyundai is listening to the sound of Sowade's lap against the short. So I thought I would bring that to the folks back in Vancouver today. Hopefully you can hear that in the background. It is a beautiful location for a radio hit. - I am somewhat jealous. We were just talking to Shane Malloy in Las Vegas. And now we're talking to you in Waikiki. It's raining here in Vancouver. So apart for the course. - Oh, I think a good week to be away and then I like to hear that. (laughing) - So, okay-- - Hey, listen, if the folks at WestJet don't get it together, I might be here a while, if what I hear. - All right, well, it's a different conversation, but that's speed on the way back. - Good luck. We know that. Airline's very reliable. All right, so a lot we want to get into, but let's start out on the Stanley Cup final in game seven. I know there was a lot of discussion about it, but the winning goal from Sam Reinhardt is that harsh to say that's one Stewart Skinner has to have or is there a lot going on in front of him that makes it a difficult save? - No, I would say that's one he'd probably like to have. And I think, you know, just as when we talked about Bobrovsky earlier in the series and how the Oilers weren't sort of getting to their spots and getting the shots that, you know, like a pre-skirt would draw up. Like the Stewart Skinner pre-skirt says, fingers up gloves shoot over the pad. Like he hit his spot, right? And that's, you know, that's part of the dangers of sort of setting up into a stance with you. That, you know, what we call a fingers up approach to the glove is, you know, everybody's going to look to try and put it just over the pad because it's a tough transition. Takes away space visually vertically, but it's tough to sort of rotate that glove as much as you have to. I guarantee you that was in the pre-scout 'cause it's pretty much in every pre-scout now. It's something that goalies are starting to pay attention to maybe going to more of a neutral glove position. And it just caught him. I prefer the most party manager really well in the series is tracking in his mechanics and sort of being able to get that over and rotated and, you know, sealing against the pads, against the pad. Just picked a bad moment to be a hair late and they cost him. What do you think of Stuart Skinner overall then after the playoffs and heading into next season? Should Edmonton feel a lot better about their goal-tending position considering the ups and downs they've had this past year? - Well, I think if you expect the Oilers to be able to continue to defend, at the level they defended under Chris Knoblock after the coaching change in mid-November, then you should feel really good. Like there's a lot to like about Stuart Skinner. We tend to forget he's a second year NHL goal tender. Like only in a second year to sort of be the expectations that come with being on a, you know, a copper bus team, McDavid's words going into the season as a second year starter and what he's been able to deliver. There's a lot to like there, especially from the mindset standpoint. You know, I've sort of known Stuart since hockey Canada program of excellence camp. Actually, it was the same camp. That's where the Oilers, goalie coach Dustin Schwartz sort of got to know him a little bit too and they drafted him that summer. And that growth mindset's always been a part of what he's brought. And to see it on that stage under that pressure, like there's a ton to like here, but don't ignore just as we shouldn't for Babrowski that this is a team that was amongst the best of the national hockey league at eliminating high danger chances after the coaching change and specifically off the rush. So if the Oilers come out next season and think it's going to be easy, have the kind of start that they did this year where they're giving up, you know, they're cheating on offense. They're making dangerous passes. They're giving up odd man rushes all over the place. Then you're going to see regression just like we saw at the start of this season, like they defended to its strength. They limited the amount of opportunities that the other team had on his weaknesses. And so as much as you, you know, or I like where he's at as a goaltender, the growth in his game and the upside that's still there, I think off puck awareness would be one thing that got picked apart a little bit in the playoffs and something he needs to work on. You know, all that goes out the window. If you don't maintain the defensive environment that he thrived under this season. Sergey Babrowski goes from a worse contract in the league to now very much on the radar for the Hockey Hall of Fame when his career ends, a couple of vesnas and a cup in his trophy cabinet. But, you know, I think this is something that we talk about so often Woodley. And it's not like Babrowski became a bad goaltender when he got to Florida, but how much does environment affect what a goaltender is able to do? And that's where, you know, Florida has maximized and Babrowski have maximized their relationship together is finding a situation and creating an environment that works better for all involved. - Yeah, and I guess just a good team, right? Like, I mean, two vesnas trophies is a head start on the, I'm like, listen, today's not a great day to talk to me about the Hockey Hall of Fame. And that's not just 'cause I'm in Waikiki. It's because once again, I'm pissed off that they didn't address the lack of a goaltending coach in the Hall of Fame and then Francois Lara, a guy who's completely changed the game is once again, left off the list. So, but to me, without the cup, Bob's still a Hall of Famer, right? Like two vesnas trophies, he's gonna end up top 10 easily on the wins list. And I guess the only part of that that you could sort of argue might not happen if he doesn't end up on an absolute wagon in Florida is the wins, right? And like at the end of the day, this is a guy who won a couple of vesnas trophies in between the two changed how he changed so that he could stay healthy because injuries were a massive concern for him after his first vesna in Columbus. He was more body injuries, left, right and center missing, tons of time every year. And he changed how he was doing things. And so that durability that's come with that and being on a good team has allowed him to pile up the wins. Like cup or not, to me, he's a vesna finalist. And so I'm just kind of curious, you know, I guess maybe we're not having that conversation if he doesn't end up on team that allows him to climb the wins list. But in terms of who he is, that never changed throughout. - Well, I mean, it's really tremendous. I mean, I know we've talked about his arc as well and we thought he'd be fine for the beginning part of the contract is at the end of the contract where he's maybe playing some of his most consistent best hockey and that just shows you how hard it is with gold-tending. But what you mentioned about Francois O'Lare and in general, like one thing I've always found fascinating about hockey is the gold-tending position is always kind of trailed behind, it seems, in terms of how organizations think about it, how they've gone about managing that situation in general. Like we've spoken over the years about how often teams have acquired a gold-tender that really doesn't fit how a team defends and plays and all of a sudden it's not a good fit. And it's trying to put a player into a situation where he's not going to have success and we're seeing that happen less and less now. But is that really something that continues to still trail for most teams or have they caught up now? - Team by team base, there's still some teams that just think a good gold-tender is going to go to their team and be a good gold-tender regardless of how they play. And I'm kind of curious, frankly, like we're going to see a lot of this with the trades that we saw this week, right? Like, you know, if you expect Liness Almark to fix the Ottawa Senators, Liness Almark was a hell of a gold-tender. The adjusted numbers were off the charts good when he was in Buffalo. Did it change where the Buffalo Sabres were? No, you didn't realize until he got to a good team. Like, and again, there were some changes he made in Boston, some things specifically that he does that played to his strength even more with Bob Essins. Then we talk about recoil and sort of purposeful drift, even on in zone plays and point shots. And that sort of freed up some of his recoveries and movements on broken plays and those numbers got even better. But Liness Almark, there's a reason Boston went and got him. Liness had exceptional numbers in Buffalo, but because the team wasn't ready to win, it didn't matter, right? And so, you know, I'm curious, like Ottawa, is Liness Almark an upgrade on your own escarpocello? Absolutely, of course he is. But if you don't fix the other things and we've kind of saw this in Vancouver, like I think there's a lot of similarities there. You know, a young team with a lot of offensively skilled players that, you know, just never learned or were willing to do the work defensively. You know, again, talk about Edmonton, right? Like tons of offensive talent, but are you willing to not cheat, not turn the puck over at the opposite blue line and give up three on twos and two on ones all the time? Like that's ultimately where the success of that trade will be judged. Almark's going to be a good goaltender regardless, but the amount of success he has is going to depend on what kind of changes they can make just to better support him. And I do think most teams understand that Ottawa is sort of going to be a case study. Do they get that that's not enough? Let's see what moves they make. Let's see what kind of structure Travis Green puts into that team. Otherwise, we could be looking at it in the same terms. And, you know, just to quickly point out, when we talk about, you know, the value of sort of understanding the physician more, oh, yes, the irony of Babrowski winning a Stanley Cup of the Florida Panthers is that they created a goaltending department of excellence headed by Roberto Loongo because they didn't want to be the team that had to go and sign Bob for seven years and $70 million. They wanted to make sure that they had the answers in-house the next time they had a goalie headed to market. They wanted to be the Columbus Blue Jackets and not the Florida Panthers in the moment where Bob became an unrestricted free agent. But to give you, you know, some of the value that that department has reaped since looked no further than the Stanley Cup game-winning goal scored by Reinhardt, who was acquired for who? A first round draft pick and a seventh round goaltender named Devin Levi, who seriously overshot his draft position and became a really positive asset. That makes that deal easier to get done. And so in a sort of roundabout way, it ends up helping them win a Stanley Cup regardless. - Kevin Woodley, our guess. So on that, the goalie market as it's shaping up, going into the summer here. Let's start with the Canucks. Rick Dollywall had a report that the Canucks could be in the market for a veteran free agent. I know we've talked about this and touched on it a little bit. Is there a Colandelia Spencer Martin type that comes in and maybe pushes arter sealovs and maybe ends up playing in Abbotsford? What do you think the Canucks are looking for to add to their goal-tending depth chart this year? - Well, you have to have a third goalie that can play in the NHL. Just because that's the nature of the position. And given the fact that Thatcher hasn't made it through a season healthy in the last couple of years, and I guess yet to make it through a full season healthy number one goal center, you absolutely have to have another guy who you believe can play in the NHL. And so that's usually an easier market to shop in. And it's actually one of the most competitive markets that you see, like teams, the number one goal is available in free agency this year. Like there wasn't a ton, it was all via trade. And we saw the teams that needed it make those moves with Markster moving, with all Mark moving, the Kings go get Darcy Kemper. But where it gets really competitive is finding quality in the two and three hole to make sure that your depth chart will get you through a season. And your ideal depth chart is a workhorse number one. A guy who can play every two weeks behind him. And then a guy in the minor leagues who's an up-and-comer who if you need somebody, instead of every two weeks, you need them for two months, he might have more upside and he starts taking over games for you. And that's exactly what the Canucks had last year. But it's really tough to hold on to for a long time because when a guy like Sheeloff has that success, he expects to be in the NHL the following season. So now you're shopping for a three, a guy you believe can play in the NHL, but is willing and understands he will almost certainly start in the American Hockey League. And there is one way to increase your odds of finding a good one in that role. And that's to be willing to give them a one-way contract. And I've also seen some of the reporting I believe from Rick that there may be a hesitation to do that. That they're looking for somebody on a two-way. And as soon as you're doing that, I don't want to say you're shopping in the basement or the bargain bin, but you're certainly not shopping at the same tier that you are when you're willing to give a one-way contract. And so that two-way contract means you're really trusting your goalie department to maybe find a hidden gem or you're trusting them that whoever you get, you can do the work with them to make sure that by the time you need them, they're an option. And remember, like guys like Spencer Martin didn't start for two months when he first arrived to Vancouver. And then when they needed him for as much as it didn't end well, he gave them really good minutes in that season. So, you know, again, shopping in the bargain bin doesn't mean you can't find that guy. It's just usually comes with a lot less pedigree and a lot more work meets to going to making sure he's the guy that can help you when you need him at the National Hockey League level. And you're counting on it, not being out of the gate. - We do have some potential developing news with your Vancouver Canucks here. Elliot Friedman tweeting, "Hearing Chicago and Vancouver working on a deal "that will create cap room for the Canucks, "potentially involving Ilya McCabe "and the rights to Sam Lafferty "with a second round pick as a sweetener." So you get some breaking news while on the beaches of Waikiki and discussing it with us here, Woodley. But this is something Sat and I have talked about a lot. My initial reaction here, guys, is if the Canucks are willing to move off a second rounder to open up cap space with Ilya Mckayev as a sweetener, that must mean they have something else coming through that makes sense, that makes them think they're able to build a better team than with Ilya Mckayev on it. - Well, I mean, you know, my last question to Teddy Blueger on the zoom just now is sort of what was the move 'cause a lot of his answers were about how the group came together and how well they fit and the way he fit on the penalty kill and sort of a lot of the positives we saw with the group and how individuals stepped up and things like that. And so my last question to him was, you know, how much change are you expecting within that group? And are you, you know, sort of, are you confident that if it does change, you know, what makes you confident that you can still have that same success? And it sounds like, and again, I leave the inside, the insider stuff to the guys who are actual insiders, but you would assume that that move comes given the timing of it after we saw Blueger sign, maybe with an eye towards getting more of their own unrestricted free agents back under contract before they hit the open market. So that some of that chemistry and everything that Teddy talked about them building last year can sort of be retained as opposed to losing, you know, more and more. Obviously, you're gonna lose some, but maybe this reduces how many you lose in free agency. - Yeah, for sure. And I think what's interesting though is, I mean, this is a player that clearly, if you're giving up a second round pick to move them, you're admitting a mistake on the signing too, right? And they're moving off from the player, which is fine. You can always move off of a guy. I'm a bit surprised if they're moving a draft pick to move off some salary, but it also kind of shows you the mentality, right? That they're not gonna be afraid of paying a price to get rid of their mistakes. - All right, what? - Yeah, I mean, you know, this group hasn't made a lot of them. And I think that's why they get the benefit of the doubt heading into this free agency, even with so many of their own important unrestricted free agents set to hit the market. When they have made them, they haven't been afraid to move off of them or to admit those mistakes. You're right, the cost appears to be steep if it is a second round pick. You know, especially we saw, I mean, look at Connor Brown this year and the impact he had in Edmonton and how little of an impact he had until like God late in the season and start doing the math on how long that was for him in terms of coming off of a complete, you know, knee reconstruction and finding a bit of those wheels back. You know, I wondered if they might be patient and see if it would happen. But if they don't think, you know, 'cause at the end of the day, so much of what Mikayev did and the offense he created, the offensive chances he created was based off that speed. So if you don't think it's coming back and you feel like an opportunity to move off of that salary, it gives you a chance to bring back more of the guys that you know fit here. It just saves you having to go out and find guys that come with a question mark. They had a home run off season last year and pretty much everyone they went out and acquired and even at the trade that, you know, head of the trade deadline worked out, asking them to repeat it by replacing every single guy that's on the pending UFA list. Like that's a big ask. You have to hit another home run on so many guys. And so maybe there's a recognition that there's value in retaining some of the ones where they already know the fit is there. - Yeah, I just personally don't love the idea of paying a second round pick to move off of William Mikayev in order to overpay Dakota Joshua and maybe Nikita Zadora to keep them here in Vancouver. Like keeping those guys is going to be expensive. And well, I think they were both huge contributors to this team. You know, I don't know if paying Dakota Joshua $4 million is maybe the answer. - And maybe that's not what's going to happen. Maybe one or the other. - We don't know, yeah. - You know, like, I mean, at the end of the day, I'm with you, I agree with you. I understand the concern. And yet, you know, there's a fine line between giving all of them overpaying on all of them and maybe picking and choosing a couple that you do. - Yeah, it's an interesting situation. The Canucks now find themselves in again. The breaking news from Elliot Friedman, well, developing news from Elliot Friedman, the Canucks and Vancouver, the Canucks and Chicago Blackhawks working on a trade that could send William Mikayev and Sam Lafferty, the rights to Sam Lafferty is a pending UFA with a second rounder to Chicago in order to help the Canucks open up some more cap space. Earlier today, the Canucks did re-sign Teddy Blooger to a $1.8 million per season deal over the next two years. And that was such a huge part of the Canucks success this season, their penalty kill. And it's just the off season has taken an interesting turn here for Vancouver, you know, opening up more cap space. They signed, pronic to the contract. They signed them to Woodley. They signed Blooger today. Now they're opening up some more cap space. We do believe here. We've always talked about adding a winger for Pedersen. Do you still see that or do you see that as the main priority for the Canucks here as they enter free agency on Monday? - Well, I mean, I guess we just talked about this cap space. They open up an assuming my assumption and who knows, like I said, we leave the insider to the insider and to the insiders. That's why I'm at the beach and Elliott Freedman's work in the fall of a person right now, I wouldn't trade it. So maybe this is part of the price having gone up as we've heard and the demand and what it's gonna cost to get that winger if indeed Jake Genssel remains the target. I have my druthers and I'm gonna overspend. I'm gonna overspend on elite talent. I think that goes to what you were saying about maybe, what do you spend on Zidorov? If you see him as a yes, a penalty killing, but for the most part, a third pair of defensemen. All questions, all fair questions. I'm as curious as to anyone to see what the answers ultimately become, whether it's in the next couple of days or we have to wait all the way to July 1st to see how they'll spend it. But like I said at the beginning, the questions remain fair, especially as we see, draft picks continue to go out the door. But I think this management group courtesy of the last year and a half they've had is earned the benefit of the doubt and I'm willing to wait and see what happens. Woodley, love getting your immediate thoughts on this. So we appreciate the time. Thanks for this. - I'm sorry they were so distracted, but I am trying to listen and talk, but I'm just basically looking out at paradise, so. - Can't believe it. - Okay, thanks a lot, all right. - I'll be back in the rain with you guys next week. - There is Kevin Woodley and he on Sports at 650 Brati by White Rock Hyundai. Visit the showroom on King George in White Rock or WhiteRockHunday.com. All right, so we have some developing news with the Vancouver Canucks, potentially a trade in the coffers with the Chicago Blackhawks. We'll continue to find out more about this and break it down next on Canucks Central.
