[MUSIC] Conoc Central Thursday. It's Dan Reacho, Satyar Shah here in the Kintec Studio. Kintec, Canada's favorite orthotics provider, powered by 1,000 five-star review. Orphate, what are you waiting for? It is a Thursday, and you know, on Thursdays, that means it's the Conoc Central Round Table. We bring in Biknazar into the studio. Or actually, he just stayed in the studio from doing the people's show. He tried to get out, we're like, no, you got to stay. Now, bro, you're staying. Coward, you're staying. And so Biknazar's here. What's going on? I teased the show, and I promised some people-- Dan Reachio, tears. Tears? The emotions would still be on the surface level after what happened earlier today. I've followed through on my promises. I have tried to be good about it, OK? Tried to keep a level head about it. The Adzuri were total trash today. It wasn't great. It was so bad. It was just like, Virgonia came to mind. I was yelling at my television screen. A lot of the hand signals, like, what are you guys doing? A lot of things I can't repeat on radio. But it-- No, you couldn't repeat them. This is the ERTC by Netflix. I'd have to like Mr. Clean them a little bit, you know? It's just-- it's not exactly a great scenario. But yeah, the Adzuri lost to Spain, not the end of the world, but it was not a good performance. And they were quite punchless in attack, I would say. I was really surprised. Yeah, it wasn't great. It felt like watching some of the Canucks games from the playoffs again, where it's just like-- There's a couple of passes for you guys to make, and all of a sudden, you spring an odd man rush, or you spring a break. And they just never made the pass, or they were never able to complete any of those passes. Too much duress. Yes. I watched too much Canucks hockey that I can't not make a reference to the Canucks now. Everything comes back to the Canucks. That's all I used to know. It is the longest day of the year. So let's give you a good round table, a nice long round table. Josh has already worried. He's like, he's going to say, we're going to make the longest segment of the year. And he's like, oh, they got a break on time. They got a break on time. Well-- We're a round table guy. Yeah, exactly. We're round table guys. So let's get into it. It's the round table, and it's the open. Welcome to the open. Oh, that's your home. Are you too good for your home? Answer me. It is the open where we bring you the latest on the Vancouver Canucks. And our take on it, the latest. I mean, Jim Rutherford did speak to Ian McIntyre at sportsnet.ca in a little Q&A, given an update on the off season. And really, that's where the focus continues to be. And there's a few takeaways that I want to get to from Jim Rutherford. But we're very much in a holding pattern, right? The Canucks have locked in, Philip Pronik now. And you feel pretty good about that. But you still got a lot of doors. In the room, and a lot of different ones that open different possibilities for the Vancouver Canucks this off season. But we're not rich. We're not really sure just yet which of those doors is going to open up, Seth. No, we don't yet. And I think the Canucks themselves-- and I thought you heard Rutherford say they're really itching to get some clarity on what the team is going to look like, because they don't quite know yet. And I think one of the things about what Rutherford had to say was it's very true, too, is how hard they're going to maintain that line in the sand about where they're going with these players, right? And when you look at where this team is headed and what they're trying to add to the roster, there isn't really an appetite. And he said it for them to overspend on bringing the same team back. It's what you want good managers to do, good executives to do, have evaluation of some players, and force the other negotiating party to cater to you. And I look at that phrase that he said, and when asked about the pecking order, do you risk alienating some of the players or making them feel less wanted, he said, we're not concerned about that. And I've always felt that if a player really likes it somewhere and they want to stay with that team, in that city, they're going to figure out how to do it, whether they have to wait a little or not. And that part of, they're going to figure it out. Not we, like we've done our part. They're going to have to figure it out. That's what good negotiators do. They push the other side to a decision. Take the hometown discount or happy trails. - Yeah. - Essentially. - Not even just hometown discount, just the contractual version of hometown discount, but lifestyle, everything that you value of playing in Vancouver, you've got to put that now in your priority list and how important is it to you or is it about? The extra, might be several million, I don't think you're going to take the money, but that's what good negotiators do. - Well, they came up from their number on Heronic, right? - Sat, we talked about it all year. We talked about whether or not they would get above seven, while the Heronic camp was sitting at eight, and eventually they find the happy medium at seven and a quarter, but as something you said earlier this week, that's kind of as high as the Canucks were really willing to go. But the difference between Phillip Heronic and all of the guys that are currently still sitting without contracts, whether it's Lindholm, Joshua, well, maybe less so on Lindholm, but certainly Joshua, Myers, Zadorov, any of these guys, they're just not as valid. I mean, no disrespect, but they're just not as valuable as a guy like Phillip Heronic to the point where you might extend a little bit from where your perceived limit initially was to make sure that player stays in Vancouver. I think they've thought about doing that with Zadorov, but probably aren't going to get there. They've thought about doing that with Dakota Joshua, probably aren't going to get there. Ultimately, they see those guys as good support players that you can't overextend yourself too much in a salary cap world. - So Phillip Heronic, and I was mentioning this yesterday, and I don't think people realize how productive he's been. - In his whole career. - Yeah, he has 205 points to 390 games, and I just brought up Nikita Zadorov, 142 points in 642 games. And okay, different roles and all that, but also he's been a player in the past who's gotten opportunities on the man advantage. He's gotten opportunities playing with different situations. And yes, maybe there is more to his game, but he's essentially been a four, five, six defenseman for his career. Phillip Heronic's been a productive right-handed defenseman at the age 26, has 205 points. His career pace is 43 points over 80 games, 82 games. Those are hard players to find, and that's why they're willing to go a little bit extra, and the same thing is true for their forwards. I thought the Lindholm offer was actually pretty, they made a real go at it, right? - They made a competitive offer. - They did, and it came down to Lindholm probably preferring something else. It wasn't about the money, maybe slightly, but if he thought the Finn and Vancouver was that good for him, he would have taken seven by seven. - I'm so excited to see his payday, like that one. That discrepancy, it'd be one thing if there's two fair, equal, competitive offers, and one guy just chose another's destination. But it does feel like there's a assumption that they're gonna be more money available to Lindholm. - Does he get eight? - Eight times seven. - So that's an extra seven million. - I'm just really curious if he breaks $55 million. - Yeah, if he gets the JT contract, $56 million. - I would say his camp thinks that $56 million is out there for him. - Yeah, again, I referenced Horvat and Duchain. They got eight and a half. They haven't put up the stats that he had by age 29. Like, he's got a point of game season. He's got a 40 gold season. Those guys got eight over eight. - And he is the top center on the market that is available, true center on the market. It's gonna play for something for a Lys Lindholm, but. - Especially, like, Washington just willingly took on eight and a half million dollars of Dubois. - Well, look, if you're a center that's shown at times that you can play at a top six level, like teams are gonna take chances on you, you know? That's just the reality we live in in the National Hockey League. - Well, as they should, you know? And I think that's the way it should be. Like the higher end guys are the guys you should take flyers on, right? And if you are going to give somebody some money, it's gonna be somebody who has proven to play at a high level. And I think that's where the Canucks are at. And as much as, clearly, they lags the door off. And I do think that the door hasn't clicked. Like the only guy you can say is not coming back is Lindholm. - Yeah, it very much feels like Lindholm. Yeah, Lindholm's gone. - Yeah, I think there's an acceptance internally that that's not gonna happen. Like not that it's like, you know, that they don't want it to happen, but it's probably not gonna happen. The rest, I don't think the doors have closed. Like, and from the discussions that I've had, it's kind of like, yeah, we wanna keep these players, but it has to fit in. - And there's a limit. Now, Rutherford made it seem like they made their best offers. Sometimes that can be a little bit of gamesmanship because you can say you made your best offer, but what if, what if, right? Like an extra $100,000 per year gets the deal done. You're not gonna do it from this point on. - Yeah. - But how much have you already moved up? - Yeah, but I'm just saying, like I think, I think even at this stage, it's kind of like a heroic thing where I think they had, they thought their best foot forward would have been about seven or so, and they had to get a little bit more uncomfortable. Maybe a little bit more can happen with one of these guys, but that's pretty much it, though. Like they're not gonna all of a sudden go from, let's just hypothetically say they've offered Joshua 3 million. They're gonna go from three to four. - Yeah. - You know what I mean? - Four to five for Zadorov. - No, it'll be like, hey, but if Zadorov's at like, let's say they offer 4.75 and he wants five, do they make it at 4.8 or 4.9? You know what I mean? That to me can be some movement, but that's it. We're not talking about massive movement here. - Well, and if you're able to move Anilia McKay, whose name continues to come up, do you now have a little bit more flexibility to offer a little bit more to one of these players? - I mean, I don't want to, I love talking about things 'cause we should have things to talk about hypotheticals, but wasn't this a kiss of death today? That was me, I muted myself for a moment. Don't look at Josh or-- - As long as you don't spill water, you're okay. - No, exactly, I just muted myself. - I muted him. - I muted him. - I muted him. - Mute is harmless. - Mute is fine, shirts, short circuiting is not. But yeah, like chasing waterfalls, definitely not good. - Definitely not good, TLC, Sangos and Bull Saw. - By the way, just really quickly, on the McKay of Zadora thing, I thought you were going to say-- - It's spilling water. - Is this not, we've done more than enough content of that. - And yet people keep texting about it. - The tap has run dry on that content. - Yeah, it has, very good, pun central. Do we get it back to McKay of again? - Yeah, is it not funny that we're talking about like, oh, trading McKay of two years into the steel, and then saying, but hey, let's go give $5 million to Zadora as if that won't be a problem in two years. - Well, this is something, it's a great point. And you know, we were talking about this on social media 'cause Rick reported this morning that, yeah, they've permitted, granted permission to Milstein to seek a trade. And people were wondering, asking the same type of question, being like, you know, like, does this not kind of mean that you can do this, you can do that? It's like, no, you get to this point, it probably means the player is not going anywhere. - Yeah. - You know, and if you've got to this stage where they have permission to seek a trade, it's usually not a good sign. Like, it means they've exhausted every possibility. And usually it's kind of like one of those things where, and I'm not saying this is what's going on, but oftentimes it's the agent pestering the GM, what's going on in my client, have you traded him yet? Do you have anything you have anything? He's like, I don't have anything. But you know what, you go ahead. - Yes. - You think you can do better, go ahead. That's usually what it comes down to, right? And I'm not saying it's acrimonious, but that's usually what that means. - When that news comes out, it's essentially a guarantee that the player is not getting traded any time soon. - Something has to change in order for the market to open up, which means time comes off their contract so that there's less term available on it. The player plays better, so there's more interest in the player, all of those things have to change. The story has to change in order for more interest to come about. - And I know you've referenced this a lot, Sat, of like where you were with Besser, and where you were with Garland at stages, right? Like, we got to this stage with those players too, and they rebounded, and suddenly people are chanting Connor Garland's name in the building. Not that I think anyone's going to chant Ilya Mikayev's name in the building, but the patient's approach is kind of the way to go, and I do think, I think we all agree that there's a better player in there for Ilya Mikayev, and we just haven't seen like an honest account. We've got to deal with the ACL year one, recover from the ACL in year two. I would expect year three to be significantly better, but I don't know if people have the patience for that. - Well, you see how much better Connor Brown is playing right now, you know? - Right. Well, looking like he's got his speed back and playing a little bit better fully recovered from his ACL injury. - Well, and the thing is, like, there's no certainty. Like, every contract's a risk, it doesn't matter, right? And to the point you were making before, it's like, you know, you're gonna give the door up this risky contract. It's not only to give somebody else a risky contract, it's also giving an extra asset to have the pleasure of giving somebody else a risky contract. And that's fine, I'm not, I'm not against them, spending money and going out and doing things. It's more about how much risk are you going to, how much can you leverage yourself to make one move? - Yeah. And to me, if you're already looking at giving players in their late 20s, perhaps early 30s, long-term deals, let's say a forward, free agent, forward type, like how much are you going to be spending more to not only have more long-term commitments, but also shedding yourself of draft picks and assets in the process? - And it's very similar to the Garland situation in that. I don't think the team dislikes this player. I think the team feels that there's still value in the player and that there is a tangible level of impact that the player can make if there is the bounce back next season, and that's why I don't think a buyout is really all that appealing to them. I don't think attaching too much of an asset to get rid of Mikayev's contract is all that appealing to them, but if they were able to get rid of the money, it might allow them to do some other things in free agency and this off season that is appealing to them, like be able to bring back Zadorov comfortably and Myers and maybe still go after Genssel and still have other things or extra flexibility to do more on top of that. That would be the pathway to justifying finding a way to move off of Mikayev in less than great circumstances. - So perfect world, right? I think the connects would love to bring Zadorov back. - Yeah. - And then also find another defenseman in free agency that bring Myers and Zadorov back and then find somebody to replace Cole. Somebody credible to replace Cole. I know today, you know, Dollywall mentioned Joel Edmondson if Zadorov doesn't come back, but even if he comes back, like I wouldn't be surprised if they have the space to add a veteran or somebody else that's of decent caliber, right? So I think that's an ideal world. They love to bring Myers back Zadorov back and another good defenseman. And then they love to add a high-end forward plus a couple more wingers. - Yeah. - And I'm not saying high-end guys, maybe one guy that can perhaps play up your lineup, but they also want somebody that can forecheck well and be gritty. I don't do Haymes names come up. Like in a perfect world, I think they would love to add three forwards and add one defenseman in addition to Zadorov and Myers, but you need more money to do that. - Yeah. And that's where McCayev's name continues to come up in conversation. But I don't think today was any sort of vote of confidence that they'll be able to move off of. Iliya McCayev. Now, I mean, so much has been Jake Genssel. He just continues to be such a huge focus of this potential off season. He fits so many holes for this team, the help on the power play one with the left shot. He is proven to be a productive player among the best and most productive left-wingers in the league over the last three seasons and through his career. It's just, this is going to be the premier scoring forward on the market. And for as much as the feeling is, as you mentioned earlier this week, around the league, Zad, that maybe Vancouver is among the favorites to land, Jake Genssel. You still know, like this is going to be at least the most competitive market for a player and free agency. - Yeah, I mean, I know Frank reported that, right? Like you reported that, you know, the Canucks could be the fit for him out of the gate and everything like that. And like I mentioned yesterday, when we asked around the league, like you hear of Vancouver linked and they are viewed outside of Vancouver. And again, I said outside of Vancouver, I'm not a Genssel insider. I can tell you what's going on with the team sometimes. I can't tell you what's going on with it. - Can you tell if the team is actually looking for real estate in Lynn Valley or? - I believe that's false. - Okay. - I believe that's-- - Good to know. - Yeah. (laughs) But yeah, so I think the Canucks obviously like him. They're interested in him. They want to bring Jake Genssel here. I don't think internally they feel like their favorites though. - Yeah. - Like I don't think the Canucks feel internally like, "Oh, we're going to land this player." You know what I mean? They don't have the swagger about like, "Hey, we're getting this guy." That's not to say that they're not going to get him. It doesn't mean that they're not heavily interested in signing him, but they're not just so fully in on Genssel that they have no other contingency plans here. Like they're preparing for, yeah, if we can get him, fantastic. If not, we have BCD we're going to go down and do. - Is that hedging though? - I think there's always some hedging. I think there's always a level of hedging that goes on. - I just look at it like I said this early on the show. If you're in the room, that means there's a dollar figure that they would say yes to. And if you, like the hard part is getting in the room. - Yeah. - The fact that he would have even entertained the idea of coming to Vancouver now that it's a bad destination, but it's harder to make the list than it is to be in the room. 'Cause at that stage, it's in your control. - For sure, it is. At the same time though, like it's, there's always a limit to how deep you go. And that's why usually even if you have five people in the room, there's one person that comes away with it. 'Cause there's always somebody that's going to go farther than everybody else. Rather for a given his MO, he hasn't been afraid of being that guy. And that's why there's level of sense outside of Vancouver that if the Canucks are in on this, Rutherford's going to get it done. If Friedman referenced that, if Rutherford wants his guy, he gets his guy usually. But here's the thing though, there could be the other teams more desperate than Vancouver. - Certainly. - For instance, look at LA now. They have 23 million in cap space after, we can sit here and make fun of LA all we want. And that's fun, it's cool. There's a lot of things they've screwed up. But it's still a prime market. Gensel's an American player. If they go after Jake Gensel will make a massive offer to him. Like for an American kid, is he saying no to LA? And I'm not saying he's going there guys. All I'm saying is like we can't assume he's coming here. 'Cause there are other teams with cap space in prime markets that could be looking to be as aggressive as Vancouver on this player. - It's, you don't make that trade. Well, I mean, look, if you're Rob Lake and you figured, or you got to a point where you knew Pierre-Luc Dubois was a mistake and you need to get out of it, then sure, you make that trade. But also, why are you opening up that cap space? What do you think that you have the potential to do with that cap space and how is it going to make your team better? But yeah, like LA is a top three market in the league, top three destination for top end free agents to go to, whether it's LA or Anaheim. I mean, Florida, the warm weather climates that have contending rosters, I mean, they are always going to attract the best free agents if they are available and it makes sense for them financially to make it all work. The one thing I wonder with Gensil is like, if the Canucks were such a favorite, or if any team was such a favorite, Gensil knew like that's the team I want to go to, maybe it already gets done. Like, we've already heard that Carolina is willing to speak to teams about a draft pick compensation, and this is why I think you're right, Seth, that for as much as there's a feeling around the league, Gensil might land in Vancouver, there's no guarantees in this situation. If there was, it might be a Damon Severson situation where that's already done. - And I think for the Canucks, like, and like I said yesterday, I don't know if they would be unwilling to trade a pick to get a player and sign him. I just think that they would probably prefer not to shed more draft picks in their pursuit of paying guys a lot of money, or getting rid of money. You know what I mean? If you're reluctant to give up a pick to get off money, are you going to be eager to move a pick to add on money as much? - It's never gonna get cheaper though, too far. - It's not going to be, and that's always gonna be the question, right? That's gonna be the question. I think the Canucks would love to make the deal without having to do that. But the question is, again, how high is your desire? And that's something that we're gonna find out. And one of the things to always keep in mind is, it's also based on where the market is going. If no team right now is seriously willing to talk trade with Carolina to acquire his rights, that means right now, no team is willing to go to eight years. If that's the case, why should you extend yourself to it? So this is always the game, you know, the management's team's way. - To play the asset, that's why. - No, I get it, but they play this game. It's like, that's why they'll always make the trade. It's like, you play the game of, don't do things you don't need to do, unless you have to do them. - Sure, and that's gonna be the question. Do you have to do that or not? 'Cause Gensil could easily say, you know what, guys? I'm not deciding on July 1st. I'm deciding on July 2nd. - Yeah. - So it could be all for not. So it all really comes down to has he made up his mind about where he wants to go? Does he want more time to figure it out? And if he wants more time to figure it out, then it doesn't matter if he acquires rights or not. - So one thing I found interesting from, from Rutherford's discussion with Ian McIntyre, and I think it ties into this, because we're talking about spending a lot of cap space, and that means the Canucks are gonna have to fill some holes in their roster, potentially with cheap talent. And the name we've brought up on the round table before is Jonathan Lekoramaki and how realistic it is that he ends up on the roster next year. Rutherford does mention he's gonna come into camp and at least have a chance to impress them. And for as much as, leanis Carlson, who signed a one year, two-way extension today, arsh deep beans, these guys have put themselves on the radar for NHL jobs. I still wonder if Lekoramaki's upside is something that is more intriguing for a team that could certainly benefit from finding some cheap talent to fill in their top six and have some offensive value to them. - But even the early admission that he could be part of the group that has a chance to impress them, that's one extra body now in the bottom half of the roster that gets thrown into this competition mix that already includes but Cole's in Oman. Dee Jseppi, if Blooga returns. - Ouchu Rachu De Zeeda Zeeda Zeeda - Ouchu Rachu Rachu - Arsh deep beans, it's becoming... - Leanis Carlson, you just extended him today too. - Yeah, I'm just concerned about that. - But hey, you say that. You still play two games in the playoffs. - No, I get what you mean. But it's more about like how they view the kid. And I think, you know, quickly on Carlson, at one point in this season, I think he was considering going back to Sweden. - It's quite the U-turn. - It was a big, I think this year was a big decision for him. Like, do I have a chance or not? And I think the Canucks, I don't know if they convinced him necessarily, but also by how they showed him that he has a real chance here. And that's why he stayed. 'Cause I think if he felt he doesn't have a real chance to make the main squad, I don't think he's coming back North America. - Well, the two-way deal surprises me. - Yeah. - That's... - I guess see what the number, it might be like one of those like 400, 500,000. - Sure, but even the willingness of that, I'm just saying, like, I'll take a two-way deal. Like that's the situation. - But go on with your point, yes. - Just like, look, this is one more body now. And I know people would be excitable with Karamaki being there saying like, hey, it's not immediately going to the HL, I think I'll prefer that route. But that means there's a lot of competition for not a lot of places. - Yeah. - And I'd suddenly be worried if I was on the roster already and in that spot of one of those guys that like, if they're trying to make room for someone and you're already on the team, I'd be concerned. - Well, a lot of those guys are trade chips too for this team. Like if they are going to play in the trade market is like Vasily Podkolzen, Nils Hoaglander, like those guys are potential trade chips. If the Canucks find something that is more appealing to what might be out there in free agency. Like that's just the reality of the situation for guys like Hoaglander. And certainly to a lesser extent, well, yeah, Vasily Podkolzen and Otu Ratu and those types. Gonna be interesting on that front. - Vic, always having, always a pleasure to have you on and also staying dry during the round table. It's a big win for me every time that happens. - 'Cause last week you guys had a one-hour show so I wasn't on last week. The last time I was here was Pancho Gate. - Yeah, you brought the Pancho, brought me the duck wings. There's cup holders in the studio for me. - All right, good stuff. Thanks boys. - I've graduated to a level of confidence where I'm okay bringing a water bottle back into the studio now. - Yeah, you get to work your way up to it. - Just trust that to be rebuilt. - Thanks for this. - Cheers, Paul. - There is Pignizzar joining us here on Canucks Central. I know that the Canucks don't have a ton of draft capital this year, but we're still gonna dive into the draft as it's just over a week away. Cameron Robinson joins us next on Canucks Central. (upbeat music) - Hey, it's Jamie Dodd and Thomas Drans. Get your daily dose of Canucks Talk with us weekdays from 12 to two on Sportsnet 650. Or catch up on demand through your favorite podcast app. (chimes)
