Rebecca and Tori chat about Choices. We discuss whether we were satisfied with answers provided in this episode of the Acolyte and the issues we're having with the Jedi.
Wallowing in the Shallows
WITS chats The Acolyte | Season 1 Episode 7
(upbeat music) (dramatic music) - Welcome to a special Friday edition of "Wallowing in the Shallows," the podcast that skirts the perilous drop off of a deep dive into television and movies. We are academic nerds aspiring to become TV and movie geeks. There are no spoiler guards in the shallows, so listen at your own risk. This week, join us for a while out in the alkalite, season one. (upbeat music) - Hey, hello peeps. Welcome to "Wallowing in the Shallows," this story. - And this is Rebecca. And today, we are talking about the alkalite, that the adult, the alkalite, (laughs) season one, episode seven, choice. - This was at least an episode where we got some answers. - Yes, yes, we did. I'm afraid that they had built the anticipation for so long that this didn't totally satisfy me. - Yeah, don't hear that. - Yeah, but I was really glad we got some answers. - Yeah, yeah, I didn't quite understand all of the drama surrounding what happens, right? That Torben then goes into that meditative state for how many years and then is willing to kill himself. - Yeah. - And I mean, he was just a padawan. - Yes. - That kind of shits on his elders or his master and the older Jedi. I mean, Saul's the one who's really kind of the blame for most stuff. - But maybe we should-- - Definitely go into it. Are we jumping ahead? - I think we're jumping way far. - Okay, okay, very good. We can reel it back in. We can reel it back in, sounds good. But I agree, I'm just gonna tell you right now. I agree, the Torben plot hinging around him being homesick. It felt weak for this entire debacle. And again, the level of guilt that he felt. But we will examine that for the one we get there. - Yeah. - Okay, so we're on the planet that we don't even know has human-oid life forms doing a little Samp collection. - I had the laugh, I'm like metal detector, but evidently it's a virgins detector. (laughs) - Oh. - I mean, I don't know. - That was, that's me being kind of facetious 'cause I was like, oh my gosh, that's kind of lazy on the prop department, I guess. - A metal detector? - And they're trying to, and then we find out, of course, that they're looking for this virgins. And I'm like, okay, so evidently, this is a virgins detector instead of a metal detector. - Yes, well, so you made that leap. - I made that leap, that was made. - Yeah, well, I think that was a good, I mean, 'cause they're also just sort of dumping grasses and do a little box and clicking a button that, what is it, vaporize it, but catalog all of its contents, I don't know. I don't know what all was going on. But one thing that I did immediately learn here was, it wasn't that they came upon the coven accidentally. - Yes. - When they said they didn't realize, you know, people were there, it seems, unless Endura is hiding something, it seems as if they were actually telling the truth, which I had doubted when we saw the previous flashback episode. So definitely some of the Jedi actions were sort of justified. Now, some of them definitely were not, they really overstepped, but that one seemed to have been legitimate. There had been that big hyperspace accident, and this planet now is teeming with plant and animal life. What the heck's going on? We're checking it out, is there a virgin's? - Right. - You know, it seemed like a legitimate mission that had nothing to do with the coven. - Right, and the coven probably went there 'cause they needed the power of the virgins to create twins. - Were you familiar with this term, virgins? (laughs) - Actually, I associate that more with Marvel because isn't like Wanda the virgins or something like that? I don't know, they have a special name for her. But no, I don't think I'd ever heard it before. I'm trying to, I just watched the last season of Rebels 'cause I wanted to refresh my brain about some stuff. And I don't remember them talking about, I don't remember anybody talking about a virgins before. But again, it's not like I'm super steeped in everything. - Right. So as we'll probably- - It's probably in like the books or something. - Right, is it will probably come as no surprise to you. I had no idea what a virgins was. But the excellent gentleman on Children of the Watch had multiple examples of where it has shown up before. And it didn't seem like the sort of mainstream that it just seems like they've seen and read everything. And they in fact, the one that kind of struck me said that Vader's fortress or home or base, whatever, she built it on a virgins. So that was kind of interesting. So apparently it's in there somewhere and multiple somewhere's, but maybe not in the most mainstream stuff. - Well, yes. - Which image? I didn't think I needed to know anything to watch this one. (laughing) - I was kind of surprised at how whiny type, not Tiber, Torben was. - Torben, Torben was frankly insufferable. - Yes. - He was acting like an eight year old at camp for the first time. - Yeah. - I mean, Jedi don't just sit their butts on Coruscant forever, you know. - Right, right. - And he's been given a very, I mean, he thought he was just being sidelined, I guess, here on this planet, picking up leaves. But he's explained to him that this is a very important phenomenon they're trying to find. His mission has been legitimized as important. And yet still, I'm like, dude, you're in the wrong field. I mean, you don't get to just sit home in your easy chair all day. - Yeah, yeah. - So that was weak, that was just very weak. I mean, him waxing forward a little bit. And I will say that I do think that the mind control bit affected him, right? - Right. - And I think definitely affected Kalmaka, right? I think Kalmaka was haunted for the rest of his days, right? We haven't really seen a lot of that, but he had all those women in his head. And so I would say he had even more cause. But and in the mama'e fugue state, she's like, ask, ask, I can get you off this planet. So it almost seems like maybe after that overcoming his, that's like, I mean, they get off the planet, right? I mean, certainly mama'e didn't wanna die to make this happen and have her own coven wiped out. But she may have been influencing him in a way that she thought would get them off the planet, but unfortunately, it backfired. - I'm not totally convinced the coven is dead, but I'll get to that later. But I was watching, or I watched part of screen crashes, breakdown of the episode. - Yes. - This is a guy, I couldn't remember his name last week. His name is Ryan Arie. - Okay. - And he's got the dog, Doug. - Doug, the dog. But anyways, he made me laugh because he made this comment. Padawan Torbin is kind of an annoying little jackass. - Yes. - And I was like, yes, Ryan Arie. He is an annoying little jackass. And nobody really takes him to task for it. - No. - And I know Anakin was an annoying jackass as well, but Opioin would often take him to task for it. So yeah. It would be better if the entire coven isn't dead because I was like, wow, Endira, you just wiped out this entire colony. It seemed, I mean, honestly, in that case, it really should have been like, how Naka just should have been subdued or killed. I mean, to kill what, 30, 40 of these women, when they just walked in on them. I mean, they were defending their home. - Right. - I don't, and she does say, you know, the council says we've interfered enough already. Yeah, I guess. - Well, I'm not saying they didn't kill some, but I don't think that Endira killed the, which is that we're in Tanaka's head. - Okay, you think they just kind of passed out or something? - Yeah, I think she-- - Would we see them all out? - Right. - Okay. - Yes, yes, because there's no, they're not covered in rubble or anything like that. And I don't think Endira is a Jedi that would use the force like that to kill all of those women. - Well, this would really help me if that is the case because I was like, okay, of everybody's guilt level, Endira's has to be the worst since she, it was a mass murder. - Right, right. - Of someone guy, you know, that maybe she could have just subdued with cuffs or something and whatever. So I feel much better about them not being dead because I left thinking, okay, everybody is dead except May and Coral. And Coral saved May was my, 'cause she's in her dusky smoke body or whatever. And just is able to fly down and catch her or something. So I hope you are right that she did not kill that whole group in one false swoop because holy cow, that is blood on her hands big time. - Right, right. And I would think again, and I mentioned this last week why people didn't sense when all those Jedi were killed in episode five, or maybe it was a couple of times ago then 'cause this was episode seven. Yeah, why people didn't feel that kind of mass death in the force? And I would have thought killing an entire coven would have also created a disturbance in the force that somebody picked up, like the missing Yoda. - AKA the Nastra? - No, I mean, actually Yoda. - Oh, actually Yoda, gotcha, gotcha. - But Vanessa should have too. - Yeah, yeah, it made me wonder, I did, we didn't get any of this, but when she hears back from Coruscant and everything, I'm just like, is it the Nastra that's making these calls? You know, so. - Well, I imagine she was a part of that decision 'cause I think she's on the council. - Well, yes, that because I know, I know Indira comes off as, and she is very stoic, very controlled. She's the one that keeps her head throughout this whole thing when Torbin and Sol are just being, Sol are being ruled by their hearts left and right, but I'm like, how can she not react more to like just killing 40 people? - Exactly. - So, yeah. And I can see they were using a lot of energy, maybe she severed the link and they just pass out. You know, they need some time to recover. And that would be great. Now, of course, it does mean that the council never followed up, never changed the place, you know? Because they come back with the story, the fire burns and everybody died, which may have still happened, right? Because they did not remove those women. So even if they were just passed out, yeah. And that's pretty horrific too. - Yeah, right, right. - That they didn't get these unconscious innocent people who you invaded their home to safety. - Right. - So that's fair. So they probably are dead now, but it wasn't from endiros. - No, I don't think endiros can do them. - Okay, okay. - Yeah, I bet you're right. Okay, okay. But yeah, they still probably are all dead, except Coral and May. - Yeah, I guess we'll find out how May survived. - Yeah. - It was so big. - Here's the other thing I didn't understand about this episode. - Yes. - I did understand why Saul was so, her soul was so taken with OSHA right away. I mean, he says, I have a feeling that she's supposed to be my padawan. And I'm like, it seemed, well, I mean, I guess we kind of saw it with Qui-Gon and Anakin, like he was really taken with Anakin right away. So maybe it's that same kind of thing, but it was confusing to me. I'm like, why? I understand why Saul feels this parental thing for her. And then he kind of brings the May along (laughs) after it's been pointed out to about OSHA. Oh, I'm concerned about both twins. I'm worried that the witches are gonna do terrible things. I'm afraid they're in danger. And I don't really get where he was getting, picking up this danger from. - Yes. - I thought that was not well explained and not well done. - Yes. - I mean, clearly Star Wars has decided to take the Christian view of witches and paint them all bad. So is it just from that? - I mean, we know that in some of the later series, we've got the Night Sisters who are clearly connected somehow to these witches. And of course, they're always doing kind of evil things 'cause they're trying to get their own power. They're just trying to survive. Like everybody else is trying to survive. - Yes. - So I'm not sure why Saul was immediately like, the girls are in danger. 'Cause I was listening to what Coral was saying, what he overheard Coral saying to the girls in the forest. And I was like, well, what make him think of that? From just what she was saying there. It didn't make any sense to me. - Here was the one thing he witnessed totally out of context that made me think maybe he thought they were being abused. When he saw, when they were misbehaving and everything, Mama A like struck him with the force to the ground. Remember when you were like, oh my gosh, they could have hit their head, you know? And so he saw that and then he saw her do the attack with May blocking. So this was kind of a training session, right? That he was witnessing, but I think out of context, he may have thought they were being abused by the force. And then he also got it in his head that because OSHA wasn't marked, that she was gonna be sacrificed because of what May said about the sacrifice. But all of this should be handled gently, right? Not scaling. Okay, he in Dara told him stop Torben. - Right. - Not to go catch up with Torben and then tuck Torben under his arm and have them climb up and enter the fortress again. Again, trespassing, you know. Again, it's burning and everything. - So is it, Dad? Jedi. - Yes. Yes, and completely influenced by his emotion. I do think, and in Dara says, these people are different from us. They have customs we don't understand. We just realized their existence yesterday. They complied with allowing these children to come into our ship unaccompanied. - Right. - You know, I feel like they had every right to fight back when they were assaulted again. And the timing with the fire, and oh my God, this whole fire thing. Okay, if it is that easy for that whole place to go up in flames, just from one of these light fixtures breaking. - Right. - I mean, it seems like we're led to believe that may just wanted to burn the book in a pissed off, you know, you know, oh, you've written Jedi things in here. I'm gonna burn this. And she drops this light thing, which like is the source of light in the hallway. These are all over the place. And then there is an uncontrollable fire that destroys the whole place. I'm like, holy cow, this was just a tinder box waiting to explode. - Yeah. - I mean, the results is devastating. - Right. Yeah, I didn't quite understand that either. And it was a little confusing, right? Because when they show the place blowing up, it's like the middle part of it is exploding. - Yeah, it's like the fire got into the wiring and then just went through everywhere. But again, I'm like, this was the cause of this fire could have happened. I mean, I just, this was so hard for me to suspend my disbelief then. This destroyed the whole place without further laser blasts or anything else. That was it, one lamp. And I know that a candle can destroy a whole whole home. So I'm not, I'm not trying to say that, you know, fires are easy to contain. But when the place seems to be made of like metal and stone fuse together, I was just quite surprised. It was quite so flammable. - Yeah. As you were speaking, I was like, you know, all these people are making choices. There's lots and lots of choices being made. And nobody is taking any time to make informed choices. - Yes. Except mama A and she ends up dying. And I liked it when she like, stuck the metaphorical knife into soul by saying, I was gonna let OSHA go. - Yeah. And I believe her. I believe that she had made that decision. It was standing up to her people. And I believe she loved her children. And I don't understand how they were created, but we don't know that. We don't know why they were created or how they were created, but clearly, and coral loved them too, you know? I mean, coral was like, I will die before the Jedi take them, you know? So it really, it was horrible what did end up happening. Oh, and I don't quite understand. It was interesting because we see both mama A and coral exhibit this ability to smokeify. - Right. - And coral apparently does it fast enough that her full body is gone. So if somebody tried to stab her, you know, it wouldn't succeed. But mama A was kind of in the process and perhaps slowed down because did you notice that May was also smokeifying? - Actually, when that scene was occurring, I thought that mama A was kind of vaporizing and was going to possess May. I didn't think May was smokeifying or vaporizing as well. - Okay, I thought maybe mama A was getting slowed down in her smokeifying process because she was trying to smokeify May as well and get them both away from this conflict. Because clearly Saul and coral and torment, things were getting hot. - You're right, right. Yeah, it's unclear. - A little unclear. - I mean, it was like, I guess I just thought I saw kind of a smokeifying coming off May. - Mm-hmm. - I watched it twice, but maybe I should go back and watch that again 'cause maybe it was smoke from mama A going toward May. I'm just not sure, but yeah. - I'm surprised because again, in watching some of the other properties, the lightsaber is really supposed to be a defensive tool. - Yeah. - You know, they keep saying, you're not supposed to kill with your lightsaber. You're not supposed to kill with the weapon. I mean, even Quinn says this or not Quinn. - Guy-mer. - Guy-mer. - That you're not supposed to kill with the lightsaber or weapon. And so why did Saul stab, you know, activate his lightsaber and then stab mama A? Why was that his initial reaction? Again, he's a bad Jedi. - Yeah, I had thought he had saw that May was smokeifying as well. So I thought he was like, what is she doing to her? And lashed out. But either way, he does something he absolutely should do. - Right. - And yet when Quirl is beating the crap out of him. - Yeah, I was like, don't quirl. - He acts more like a Jedi and doesn't. She's like, fight me, you know. But that was an aggressive move. It was just like he was kind of stunned by the smokeification, but it was horrible. So yeah, I mean, no wonder May hates the Jedi. They stabbed her mother right in front of her when she was a child. I do believe that we get some real May justification here. And we don't know what her life was like after her coven was destroyed, and clearly Mother Quirl has used that anger. Let's go girl, revenge, revenge, revenge, revenge, anger, anger, anger. Let's use our power to get what's ours. So if she has been under Mother Quirl's care solely since this whole incident, very understandable where May is when we see her. - Yeah, yeah, for sure. I did think it was interesting during that scene, you know, when May first runs in. - Yeah. - And as yelling about the fire, that soul thinks she's OSHA. - Yes. - I thought that was interesting. And I was like, are we really gonna have like a parent trap situation here where twins did switch? But I don't think that that's not what happened 'cause he figures out that it's May. - I mean, she does have the mark on her forehead after all. - Right, right. That's pretty definitive, even post-death, you know, and everything. - Yeah. - Yeah, soul really has a reason to feel awful. I mean, what we do also find out is I thought from the end of the last episode that soul knew May was alive and was hiding that. But I feel like after this episode, he thought that May was dead and he thought that his choice killed her because he wasn't strong enough to hold him both up. He picked OSHA and May dies as a result. So I think soul didn't know that May was still alive. - Yeah, that could be, that surprised me too, that he couldn't hold those bridges. - Yeah, that was not believable to me. But again, he was a bad Jedi, so (laughs) maybe he didn't have the power. - Yeah, it was-- - Yeah, it just, there were just too many things like that. - Yeah, they didn't quite land it, they didn't quite land it. - Yeah, yeah, I think so. - And what is also kind of horrible about the whole thing is they've already been told no, we are not gonna take these twins and train them from Coruscant. - Right. - And here's Mama A fighting for her daughter's choice and it's really not a choice. I mean, I know they end up training her but she washes out, whatever else, you know, they aren't fluent in, oh, she's too old for this and everything. And so I think Mama A is like, okay, she's got a little legitimate chance via Jedi. So it's sort of like this additional false pretense that even testing the children is a little bit false because they're too old. Now I'm sure they're gonna look at the M count and blah, blah, blah and be like, well, let's give it a shot, you know, I was like, Ann again, and we all know that went. But it was, oh, I just did not, this is not the way you make first contact with a culture, right? - Right, right. Yeah, everything was absolutely done badly. I mean, and Dara was the only one, well, Kanako, he doesn't do much, right, until he's possessed. - Yeah, he really doesn't, which was also a bit disappointing. - Yeah, this was like two Jedi behaving badly. - Yeah. - Torben, the whiny little jackass. - Yes. - And then Sol, who should have known better, who should have way known better. - Yeah, I mean, he was a Jedi Knight after all. And then, to just go on for 16 years, the cover up, and I don't really understand and Dara's motivation for that. Did you think it was gonna reflect badly on her or what? - Yeah, she uses this, you're gonna do that to OSHA after all of this. And so then maybe she's true to her word and really fights the council to let OSHA train, right? So maybe she's like, okay, the very least we can do is facilitate a life for OSHA where she's part of things. - So you think this is kind of a guilt reaction on Dara's part? Like, hey, we just wiped out her entire family. So she's clearly made a connection with you, Sol, because you were coaching her to pass this test. - I suppose, but it runs counterintuitive to her stoic previous ways, right, that, and she is the one that ends up arguing for OSHA getting expelled later, right? I think and Dara is a big part of that. So she folds somewhere. - Yeah, it's another place where I know it would be hard news, but maybe it's, we can't train you to be a Jedi, but we can raise you and have a good life. And I don't know, it'd be terrible if they just left or on a planet where they think there's no other living creature, but the cover up, I mean, yeah, is lying really ever a good idea. - Right. Well, they're all kind of laying in the realm of the dark force. - Yes, yes, there is deceit here. - Yeah, whether they're trying to house it in the terms of, oh, you know, we're trying to do this for OSHA, it's for her good. So, yeah, it seems weak. It seems weak because, again, this is a horrifically traumatic experience for OSHA, no matter what. So they should take care of this child, but is it best for them not to be held accountable for what they did as well? And I mean, she just met, she just met Sol. So, you know, maybe somebody else could take, you know, she could have a choice of people to be with me. Like, here's some people that are available. You got any vibe with any of them? - Yeah. - So, yeah, it did not need to be handled this way. And I think Endara showed a lot of wisdom throughout the episode and this did not seem wise. - Yes, I just had something in my head and it's gone. What the hell was it? It's gone, it's gone, it's gone, it's gone. - Please hop in if it comes back. - I will, I will. I loved when, you know, during the fight between Kalnaka and Sol and Torben when Endara arrived, I was like, yeah, you go Trinity. - Yeah, yeah, no, I really felt throughout this episode, I was like, this show would, I would have enjoyed seeing more of her. - Yeah. - I didn't need to see any more of Torben, I really, I'm sorry to say, did not need to see any more of Kalnaka, he would have had to do more to endear me to him. - But underutilized. - Oh, so underutilized. - Yeah, yeah. - I wish we could have seen inside his head. - Yes. - You know, that was-- - I mean, we don't generally get inside Wookiee's head. In Star Wars, but yeah. I mean, why was he so much easier? - Yes. - For the coven, I mean, maybe it was because it was the entire freakin' coven. - And not just Lama A. - Clearly they couldn't do it to Sol, they couldn't, and I guess Torben had fortified his brain or something. I can't believe that the whole group of them couldn't, I don't know, yeah, but yet Kalnaka was, well, anyway, you shouldn't have brought him. No, my brain is fortified, no, him. - Well, he didn't bring him. - Yeah, they're like, oh, well, this is this is this to us. We launched this whole invasion all on our own. Oh my gosh, just cracked me up a bit, that this just little hike up the mountain bypassed all security whatsoever. (laughing) Oh, hello over here, we're back, you know, we just used the back door, you know, no problem. We're Jedi, we don't get tired, we can climb, you know. (laughing) - Yeah. - I don't know. - They were, yeah, I mean, the Jedi are not painted in a good light in this series. - And sadly, not even a competent light, right? - Right, right. (laughing) - Not good and not competent, yes. Though again, Indara, I think, is the adult there. Again, we're not sure about Kalnaka, but he does get his brain subdued and they know it's a danger. So why isn't Kalnaka fortifying his brain as well? - Right, they needed Kimer's helmet. (laughing) - Yes, they did. And speaking of Kimer, how does he know so much, right? I thought maybe we were gonna get some sort of reveal that there was a little boy there too, but we know he's older, so not a little boy, but you know, he was somehow in the wings witnessing this, but maybe he just all learned it from May or Mother Quirrell, or I don't know. But boy, he knows a lot. - Yeah, you know, I remember what I was gonna say and then I have something else I would say as well. - I was gonna say, I still overall like the storyline, they just needed to beef up that motivation piece. - Mm-hmm. - And explanation, 'cause they're still too much, but it doesn't make sense. But overall, the concept, I still like, okay? And as I was just getting ready to say that, I looked down at my notes and that, so I'm gonna bring us back to the bridge scene. - Please do. - Okay, so, you know, May tells Ocean that Mama is dead, through, soul runs past all of the coven, well, not all of the coven, but that thing-- - The past out or just once? - Yes, I'm gonna say past out 'cause I don't-- - Okay. - I just can't imagine that and Dara killed them using the force like that. - Okay. - So I was wondering when soul made his choice to save OSHA, did he not save May because he didn't want May to tell OSHA that he had killed Mama A? - Whoa. - That's dark. - Yes. - You think that maybe even more than just, I'm too weak to save them both. - Right. - There might have been a slight bit, even if subconscious intention of maybe he could have like, flipped the bridge's backward or something and sent them both back, you know? - Right. - Wow. - Well, that would be even darker and legitimate, right? I mean, oh my gosh, right in front of her face. - Right, right. - Staff. - And yeah, and so, you know, soul kind of fixated on OSHA is like, what happens if she learns that I killed Mama A? So. - This is my chance. - Right. - Right. - It's an interesting hypothesis because it certainly looks like we're led to believe. It's slipping, it's slipping. I just have to grab one, which he almost doesn't get OSHA either because she like doubles down and instead of using the force, he has to grab her hand. - I can force climb a mountain carrying a padawan, but I can't force shove these two little girls off of these bridges. - Yeah. Excellent question. - Yeah. That doesn't make sense. - Well, having a bit of intent would help explain it. - Yeah. - It is terrible news that he clearly never does tell OSHA about. - Yeah, even up to now, yes, it's older. And now he's not gonna get a chance to tell her, right? Because she's with Kimer. - And he can tell May. - Yeah. Yeah. And also, I don't know how much, I think it would be meaning, I think it would be very meaningful to OSHA to know that Mama A supported her Jedi, her suit, right? And maybe that would have made things different because OSHA may have her own guilt about this decision she made. And Mama A said she would bring, the last thing OSHA knows is Mama A says it will be taken into consideration, but she doesn't know that Mama A fought for her. And that Mama A made the decision that she loved her daughter so much that even though it broke her heart and she was gonna have to fight her own partner, Mama Quirald, not Beast, the whole coven, she said, this is my daughter's choice and I am honoring it. And Sol knew that. He had that information and did not share that. And I mean, even without tipping his hand that he murdered Mama A, he could have told her what she said. He could have told her before your mom died. She said this, you know, you're doing, you know, she supported your choice. Yeah. So Sol does not come out looking good at all. No, he does not, not at all. Now let me ask you this, do you think, no, it can't just be that because, you know, at the end of the last episode, we're left with Sol saying, sit down, I'm gonna tell you some stuff, May, you know. So it could have been that this whole episode was Sol telling May, but I don't think so. That's not through my mind. Because there's stuff that he couldn't have known. He couldn't have known everything that Torbin experienced. Well, maybe Torbin fully shared it. I was trying to think of what parts Sol didn't witness himself. Right, right. Yeah. Now, I mean, because that thought had gone through my mind, but then you're right. He wouldn't, unless Torbin told him exactly what happened. Mm-hmm. When Mama A was in his mind and I think it was just flashback. Yeah, because we also see like when the girls are coming up the hill to be trained, to be tested like Torbin's meditating and he suddenly opens his eyes and is like, you know, I mean, Sol wasn't right there. He might have even been inside the ship or whatever. So yeah, I think it has to be pure flashback, but it does leave me wondering, are we gonna pick up with Sol tell, are we gonna get a third version of this story with Sol telling me? I hope not, but you know, that's how we were. Yeah, yeah, I think we're pretty covered, but. Well, the big lingering question for me is like, where does Kimer fit into all of this? Yes, yes, 100%, 100%. And we do, of course, we get this huge revolution. We haven't even talked about this. We get this huge revelation that these twins are not really twins. They are like a split consciousness, a split single consciousness into bodies. Right. So something, yeah, we just, we just don't know. So is that how Kimer's involved? You know, did Kimer help the coven create these children? 'Cause now, as he said, he's been around a long time. Now, Kimer being a fully formed adult at this 16 years ago, is that play? Are you saying he might be the forced daddy? Yep. That's interesting. Well, I'm saying it's possible. I mean, again, it doesn't seem like he just got with me by accident, right? Well, if he is, it makes that whole emerald pond scene, super creepy. I was like, if you're not gonna join me and he goes off full of Monty in front of OSHA. Oh, well, when I say forced daddy, I don't mean that he's actually biologically related to them. I'm thinking like the artificial insemination doctor, right, the person behind the scenes that's facilitating these births happening, not, you know, actually related. Yeah, no, sorry. I should really, you said forced daddy, which should have made me think that. Yeah, utilizing the power, showing them how to do this or something like that. Now, why did they do this whole two consciousnesses, this one consciousness in two bodies, was that the timer or whoever else helps them with this if they were indeed helped? They must have had their own motivation, right? Maybe the coven's only motivation is we want strong children who will then lead our coven, right? And so that's what maybe a little bit of make a deal with the devil to get us something we can't get on our own. Maybe their intent was not malicious, but the intent of whoever helped him helped them was malicious. Well, in every culture, the best way to ensure the survival of your culture is to repopulate it yourself, right? By having kids, not through recruitment. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we don't know, but I am not buying that one of them needed to die or that part of this process was, you know, Mae was going to have to kill this other part of herself in order to be the coven leader or whatever. I think the coven really wanted both girls. I don't think they planned harm for us. The balance, they would have been a balance. Yeah. Yeah, so maybe that was it. Maybe it was a positive thing of having these two, well, they'll be a team and they'll balance each other and that's a really good model for us. So I am not ready to say that it was evil, evil, for Mother Quirrell and Mama A to do this whole single, single consciousness in two bodies, but if they had help from somebody, perhaps Kimer, I bet that intent was not pure. Yes, that I would agree with if that's what happened. Yeah, then we do not know. Yeah, this is also make me wondering if the night sisters to come become the way they are because of all this stuff that went down. But that does mean that somebody had a survive to tell the story besides Mae. I don't know. They got a still some big things to answer in the final episode. Yeah, will all the bows be tied in the end of the next 30-minute episode? Yeah, yeah. Big ass cover in 30 minutes. But I do want to support what you said because I agree, even though I've said these things that I'm frustrated with, I still want to see next week, right? I'm sucked in. I am interested in what happens, though I think there have been some flaws. I'm interested. I'm wanting to talk about this. I'm not like, oh God, we got to talk about that. You know, it's like, wow. So I think they have done some things right. Yes. For sure. I am, I'm in. You know, I'm not, I'm not, and I want to see that next episode right now. I don't want to wait until next week. So that's points for something. Yeah, I'm still not like totally on the side of any character. So I'm still not attached to any character. But as I mentioned, I still think it's a compelling story, even though, as you mentioned, there are some weak spots. So yeah, I was hoping they would really land it. Didn't quite make it there, but they were close. Yeah. They had some good elements. They just didn't quite bring it together. Yeah. So one more episode to go, one more to go. What do you think the title is going to be? I mean, the girls are going to have to be together again at some point, right? So it's probably going to be a one title thing. Yeah. A one word title, I mean, a one title thing. That made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Sure. Sure. One title thing. A one word title is where she meant to go. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if it was just going to be like, since this one was choices, is the next one going to be consequences? Oh, I like that. Oh, I like that a lot. That would be cool if that's what she's going to be. Oh my gosh. If you are right about that, okay? Everybody note, everybody note, Tories. I haven't heard this anywhere else. You heard it here first, folks. Because there really should be. Right. I mean, I know we already have seen some consequences for perhaps the least, the least responsible individuals in the world. Right. You know, I have been also kind of wondering since I finished the episode last night, what would have been compelling motivation for me? You know, what is an explanation that would have satisfied me? Knowing what I know now of the story to this point. And I kind of want to think about that for a while longer. You know, like, what would have made that? Well, what would have made it land? OK, given, yes, I was just thinking. OK, then given all everything we've seen so far. Yes. I still am just like horrified at how they interfered with this community, right? Yes. So they violated the prime directive. Right. Right. I mean, so maybe if they came upon the coven, like strapped OSHA to a sacrificial pillar, right? And May has given a knife or something and told you got to you got to kill your sister to make the sacrifice we need in order to whatever. And so the Jedi come upon that and are like, what? I don't know. I don't know, but it would have to be more extreme. For me, it's really hard to get over this. You really should have left these people alone. Yeah, yeah, you had no right. And you really, I mean, what do they do with force sensitive children that are too old to train? What's what's the protocol here? Right. Because that is really what we're left that the council's decision is, leave them alone. We don't care if they pass the test. They're too old to train, you know. So what do they do? What do they do with older force sensitive kids or adults? Right. Clearly, I mean, clearly, at least some, if not all of these members of the coven have some force influence. So but they're being told leave them alone. So I think it's leave them alone and they don't leave them alone. So clearly, the Jedi want to get kids when they're younger because they can cut that attachment to family readily as we've now got two examples of how when you try to train a child when they're older, then I've already formed a very strong familial attachments that things go wrong, which as these thoughts are popping to my mind, I was like, oh, it's kind of like reminding me of Kendra, who was taken away from her family and given to her watcher very early on. You know, and she was kind of not standoffish, but kind of detached in ways and definitely and all about the mission, all about the mission completely bought in. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Hmm. What about you? Do you have a scenario in which you would have said? OK, wow. They really tied that bow. I have not been able to think of one yet. I need more time because I just finished watching this late last night. So I haven't had a lot of time to ponder all of it, but-- Well, that's fair. You're a better right. I think you have much better imagination and writing skills that I do. So I would expect a stronger answer from you. [LAUGHTER] I have to think. I'm not saying you should have it now. I'm saying that I bet I imagine it under the same circumstances you do a better job than I want to know. I do like what you said. Saul should have seen some of those things before jumping to conclusions. Going that haywire. You know, he really-- he really overstepped again and again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, OK. It was totally right when she was like, I warned you not to interfere. I warned both of you. And let's just-- yeah, absolutely she did. Let's just take a step back and say that Hüllerhead's prevail with the Jedi and with Saul. And when Saul-- let's say that Saul catches Torben a little bit before they even get to the fortress. And so he catches Torben, they return to the camp, and the Jedi go to bed, OK? This stuff is still shaking down with-- some stuff is still shaking down within the fortress, right? The fire has started. May has disabled-- under moral Mother Quirrell's direction. May has disabled the system so they can't get out, right? She's broken the front door. And so everybody is trapped within. So some bad stuff is going down that night. But the coven is not distracted by intrusion and possessing people. They all have their full wits about them. They see the fire is coming down around them. How many of them can go smoke and just sort of float out of the place? I don't know. It seemed like Mama A had the power to-- maybe had the power to also smoke May. So maybe they could have all smoked their way out of there. I mean, they have a horrific-- now they're homeless, and they've got to rebuild, and blah, blah, blah. But bad stuff is going down, but it does seem like the result would have been very different. Maybe they could have put the fire out. That's what I was just thinking. Because May did come as soon as she could, but Seoul was fighting with Mama A and Coral. So maybe they could have-- The coven was aggressive. Right? Because you had the one piece that was already working on Kalnaka, and then everybody else's, they're ready to fight the Jedi. So everybody's distracted. Yes, exactly. So I'd like to believe that there's going to be damage, there's going to be stuff, and maybe it's spreading so fast they just have to escape. But how about they go out the back door that everyone's coming in? Yeah, yeah. Maybe you can get to the top and slide down the side. I mean, I don't know. But with the black smoky thing, at least Mama A and Mother Coral have that ability. It seems like, at least, even if the inferno was not to be stopped, that at least some of them could have escaped. Yeah. You know, when May arrived shouting fire, it made me think of this old Smothers Brothers skit. Do you know who Smothers Brothers are? I do. Doesn't one of them look a little like Johnny Carson? A little bit, yeah, a little bit. But they have this one song. And I don't know why I remember this. But so it was Tommy singing, starting to sing. I forgot the other Smothers Brothers name. But it doesn't matter. Anyways, so he starts singing. I fell into a vat of chocolate. I fell into a vat of chocolate. And then the other brothers like, what'd you do when you fell into the chocolate? La de doo dum, la de doo dum de. He's like, I yelled fire when I fell into the chocolate. I yelled fire when I fell into the chocolate. Why do you yell fire when you fell into the chocolate? La de doo dum, la de doo dum de. And then he starts to repeat it. And he's like, and they get like, why did you yell fire? The one guy goes, I yelled fire because then one would save me if I yelled chocolate. [LAUGHS] Wow. [LAUGHS] OK. I have no response. I'm really dating myself. [LAUGHS] My-- I am without response. [LAUGHS] I have one other thing I just wanted to see if you had clocked the song that was playing during the credits at the end. No. Yeah, you might-- you might recheck it because it was clearly written for the show. I mean, it's like twin flame. Oh, I did see a little bit of the lyrics, but I actually turned to-- I didn't listen to it all. I just turned it off. OK. Well, it doesn't have-- it's only got like four lines, but it's like-- but they repeat them over and over again. But it's sort of like, do you feel shame about what you did or I feel shame every time people mistake me for you? Killing you would be a war-- I mean, it would be a war with myself-- a war. I mean, I'm not getting any of those right. As I tell you right, I don't know that those lyrics are correct. I'm giving you a sense of what the lyrics were. Got it. Got it. But just kind of interesting, but it totally clocked the whole twin situation for sure. OK, and thus concludes my comments. [LAUGHS] Yeah, I want to see if they can land the ending. How many weeks have we been saying this? Well, two, because we just started talking about early in a land, this explanation. [LAUGHTER] OK. We've been saying that we needed-- yeah, I think you said this early on today. That they took too long of a buildup. There was too long of a buildup for the explanation we were given. Yes, if this had been-- Did it could have come earlier? Or if this had been a six-episode series, we would have gotten it earlier. And it would have probably been more feasible, because there was too much drama built up for the explanation they've given us so far. Yep. Yep. At least I'm the part of the Jedi, right? Like, I totally get May. I totally get May's motivation. Yes. And I'm still thinking once Osha finds all this out, she's going to go dark side. And she's the real acolyte. But-- I could see it. Yeah, maybe we'll find out next week with episode eight. Here's hoping. Here's hoping. All right. But all we've got to do now is say goodbye. Thanks for listening, everybody. [THEME MUSIC PLAYING] Wallowing in the shallows is created and produced by the both of us, edited by Mo. The soundtrack for the Wallowing in the Shallows, the acolyte season one, is Star Wars-style battle music by Luis Humanoid, available on Pixabay.com. You can send us feedback at whichTVpod@gmail.com. That's W-I-T-S-T-V-P-O-D at gmail.com. [THEME MUSIC PLAYING] Subscribe, and then subscribe, and then subscribe. Subscribe, hit that subscribe button, like and subscribe.