content advisory. This episode of "Wallowing in the Shallows" includes discussion of intimate partner violence. Listener discretion is advised. If you need help, you can contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE. That's 1-800-799-7233 or text start to 88788 or chat online with an advocate at thehotline.org. Welcome to "Wallowing in the Shallows." The podcast that skirts the perilous drop-off of a deep dive into television and movies. We are academic nerds aspiring to become TV and movie geeks. There are no spoiler guards in the shallows, so listen at your own rips. This week, join us for a wallow in a Buffy the Vampire Slayer season three pre-watch. Hey, hello peeps. Welcome to "Wallowing in the Shallows." This is Tori. And this is Rebecca, and today we are talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer season three episode four, "The Beauty and the Beast." You want to take a guess at what Rolling Stone rated this one? I'm going to say in the upper half, but maybe close to the middle. No, it's much closer to the end. It's at 1.23. Really down there, you're saying? Yeah, right at the bottom. Okay, I wasn't sure because there was part of this, which I can imagine you'll know exactly. There was part of this episode that I found absolutely intolerable. Yeah, but if I could separate that bit out, I was entertained by most of the rest of it and liked the re-emergence of Angel and everything. So I would have put it right close to halfway. It's never been one I've really thought much about. I don't know if I would put it in the middle. I'm probably more with Rolling Stone on this one. Okay, well, I liked, again, and I hated this abuser situation. Just so hard to watch, but I did like this Jack London connection and Call of the Wild, and there was a little bit, maybe it was cheap, but when they went through the bit about Angel's time in hell was much more, much longer than what was experienced on the outside. Kind of reminded me of Nosferatu and I've crossed oceans of time to find you with Mina and things. So anyway, I definitely had some kind of cool stuff that we'll talk about as we go through. But oh my god, I didn't understand the green goo. I didn't understand why I started taking the green goo. I didn't understand why I stayed with him during the green goo. I didn't know what the green goo was. So that was problematic. But everything other than that story line, I guess, I kind of liked in the episode. I know that was the main thrust of the story, but yeah, there was the Oz. There was babysitting Oz and the little concern that maybe Oz was the one who formed the murder. That's why he was like, okay, as soon as Oz and where we'll form, where we'll form would have come back to the cage. I know, I thought that too. I'm like, that made no sense. That made no sense that it was Oz. If he wasn't there in the morning, then sure, but where we wouldn't have come back. Exactly. And Oz would have fessed up that he was out. Yeah, yeah. So that was ridiculous. Yeah, some of it wasn't logical. Yes, but I've really gotten ahead of myself. We can start at the beginning. We have this this bit of a monologue here that I can only imagine is directly lifted from Call of the Wild, as Willow said, that's what she's reading from. Yeah, I was trying to remember if I ever read it. Yeah. And if I did, it would have been something that was required for me to read. It's not a book I would have chosen to read. Yeah, me either. I did look, did you look up the general summary of it? Well, I kind of know the storyline, which is why I was kind of thinking I must have had to have read it at some point. But again, at maybe high school, we were required to read it. Yes, I think there's a short story or two I've written. I've read by Jack Plunded, but I do not think I have read Call of the Wild. And when I looked at a little summary, it didn't sound terribly familiar. It's possible I read it at some point. It sounds like it is a novel, but a shorter novel. Yeah, which is why I'm thinking it probably would have been okay for high school, right? Because it wasn't a super long novel. Yeah, well, I was just trying to look up. Oh, yes, Jack London short stories. I'm seeing one that's coming up is to build a fire. I am really quite sure I read a Jack London short story where like someone is freezing to death. So I was like, I think I've read a Jack London. I think that I think that was it. I do not believe I've read the called wild wild. But my understanding, and again, I do not believe I've read it. None of this sounded familiar, but it sounds like there was a dog who got stolen from California, taken to Alaska to be a sled dog. And he, he sort of loses all of his, I suppose say humanity, his civilized ways, right? Like his domesticated ways and really has to tap into his really baser instincts to become, to survive and become a leader in this new world that he's a part of. And so I thought that was interesting given all of the beasties and the baser instincts that we had demonstrated in this episode. So I don't like that. I kind of wished I had read Call of the Wild. Recollecting what I feel about, about to build a fire. I don't have a large need to jump back, jump into a big Jack London cow cannon. But I thought that was an interesting backdrop that we revisit again at the end, right? And it'll be interesting to talk about when we talk more about Angel. But I will tell you another little interesting thing that I learned. So Angel says, seems to sue the savage beast. Angel says that. Angel. No, not Angel. Are Angelic willows. Oh, yes. Yes. My dad willows says it really close to the beginning. This is very close to the beginning when she's first talking to Xander. Okay. So I've heard that so many times, right? That phrase. And I was like, where exactly does that come from? Sue the savage beast. Do you know where it comes from? I do not. The correct line is music has charms to soothe a savage breast. It's not beast. It's been bastardized. Uh-huh. But it's from The Morning Bride by William Congreve, a guy who wrote after Shakespeare, but not too long after. But it has totally morphed to sue the savage beast, but the the breast, you know, deep in the human heart or whatever. So I thought that was interesting that that really common phrase is actually a total mess up. And what I learned was Congreve is is credited with another saying that I had no idea was his. Heaven has no rage, like love to hatred turned, nor hell a fury like a woman's squirt. Oh, wow. Is bastardized to hell have no fury like a woman's squirt. Yeah. And this is also William Congreve. Huh. I would have thought that was Shakespeare. So did I. Huh. It is not. And we can't even say that Shakespeare lifted it from Congreve. Right. Because Congreve was post Shakespeare. Wow. So I got in this delightful little rabbit hole and came to a much greater appreciation of William Congreve, an English playwright and poet from 1670 to 1729. I've never heard of him. Yeah. So thanks. Another, another will that I haven't given nearly enough credit. Well, you know, in listening to you talk, I now feel more confident saying I don't I've had a red call of the wild. Okay. I mean, I, of course, I've heard of it. But I after listening to that, I'm like, yeah, I don't think I've read that. Yeah. And I don't think I'm too interested, frankly. Yeah. Yeah. Though I must, I must admit, that to build a fire did. I think I read to build a fire in eighth grade. Wow. And it is, it is the tragic tale. The man who decides to travel alone through the hostile environment of the Yukon in some freezing temperatures and falls victim to the unrelenting unforgiving power of nature. I know the ending is he freezes to Jack. This is what I remember. He's trying to light matches and his hands are numb. I mean, it's just this guy freezing to death. Wow. And so that I remember very well. And I think after that introduction to Jack London, I decided, yeah, this is not, this is not a writer. I mean, and again, more, more Yukon or whatever, you know, more old, cold, yucky weather. Forget it. Forget it. And a poor dog that gets stolen. I don't think I'd handle that very well, so and gets beat. Oh, yeah. It's not going to be good. So anyway, but I do think quite appropriate, given the, the transformation we see an angel who was a good little puppy dog, but now has become a wild beast. Yeah. But it seemed like, and I wonder if at the end of call of the wild, there's a little bit of the civilized life that returns to this dog, because it sounded like with that bit of quote at the end, the dog was kind of connecting back to some of its former life, as what happens to angel, right? He seems to remember himself at the end of this episode. I think Angel's the sled dog, not Oz. Wow. Maybe the dog does remember, and that's why that would make sense. Yeah. Again, I wish I had any motivation to read this book, but no, I don't. So I just have to depend upon Wikipedia's and Buffy the Vampire Slayer's interpretation of a set book. Yeah. I mean, I guess we could check Spark notes or something like that, but I don't really care to. Yeah. Yeah. No, we've got it. We've got a nice little wallow there. I think we've wallowed plenty. So Xander immediately falls asleep on this job. Why did he even volunteer? Yeah. Yeah. No, I must say this was the best shirt I've ever seen Xander wear. I thought you were going to just say that you got it. I thought you were going to talk about the wolf costume. Oh, much better than it was in season two. I suppose. What do you mean you say? Pose. Oh, well, I know. I know it's better. You are right. It is better. I still don't know that I would say it's good. That's all I'm saying. You're right. It is objectively better. Okay. Okay. Anything else about that per scene? Yeah. Well, there was, I made a connection with something that comes up in a later season that I've never noticed before, but I can't see anything, really, because I don't want to give anything away. Do you want to lay? Do you want it would all say what the item is? Or do you just want to not mention it any whatsoever? I think I'm just going to not mention it whatsoever and just hope that when we get to that, I will remember. Okay. Okay. But I was like, whoa, I wonder if that's where that whole thing came from. Oh, very interesting. Yeah. Hopefully. But we shall see. So things seem to be good with Oz and Willow at this point. Yep. And once again, the library cage comes incredibly in handy, though I think this thing has been broken about seven times now. Well, and why the hell wouldn't the werewolf try to break out of that? I mean, it seemed to be pretty easy for Pete to break it open. No doubt. And where would do Oz's parents ever wonder where he's sleeping once a month? Yeah. Or Sanders or anybody else's? I mean, sure, I snuck out sometimes, but my parents thought I was sleeping in my bed every night. I had to do some work to make that happen. I certainly wasn't gone from sunset to sunrise. Oh, my gosh. How very fiddler on the roof of you. All right. Yeah. But then we see a buffing faith, patrolling in the cemetery, talking about Scott. Yep. I really don't like him. I don't like Scott, but I don't dislike Scott. I think he's a good rebound for her. I think he's unmemorable. I don't think he's a bad guy. I don't want Buffy to be with him forever, but I think he's kind to her while she's healing here. Yeah. I suppose he has terrible taste in Prince, though. Yeah. You would think, well, I don't know, but you would think if he's that close with both of them that he would have picked up that something was wrong and that something had drastically changed like ever since this guy started taking the as the Boyd rage. Yeah. Yeah. I was wondering, because I, of course, I know with Jekyll and Hyde are I've never seen the movie. Never read the novella or anything. And he doesn't drink anything to change. He starts it. He does have a potion at the beginning. But I think like this guy, it gets out of control. I think Hyde starts being like, hey, I want to be out. Okay. It's been a while that I read it at the same time. I read to build a fire. 8th grade. I did this whole short stories section, but we did we did Jekyll and Hyde as well. Wow. I guess I don't remember much about what I had to read the junior high and high school. Yeah. This class was particularly memorable. She was a fabulous teacher. Nice. It's also when I read Huckleberry then. I was intense. I do remember having to read Silas Marner, but you know, yeah. So okay. I did, I did enjoy. I don't know anybody who has a marching jazz band. It really, Oz is right. It's a horrible idea. I love what he's like. But, you know, since the best jazz is in improvisation, we'll be going off in our directions hanging in floats. Scaring. Scatting away. Yes. Yes. Yeah. That was funny. I mean, just immediately. I don't like this couple. I don't like Debbie either. I don't find out her name is Debbie until nearly the end of the episode, but both Debbie and Petey are, I mean, you don't like Scott. I don't like these two. Yeah. Yeah. They're hard to handle, but I think they're supposed to be. Yeah. I suppose I don't totally understand it. But then we have the Orkin man found in the woods. Jeff Orkin. Oh, yeah. I'm like, what? Yeah. A little slow today. I went with Orkin. Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Another casualty of Sunnydale High. Yes. I wonder what the count is by this point. Astronomical. But, of course, he has to stumble and fall. That tired old trope. Yes. So, yeah. So we actually quite quickly get two suspects, neither of which are guilty. We get both Oz and Angel as potential suspects, but it is conclusively due to jealous rage in his hide form. Yeah. What do you think about Mr. Platt? Like him. Like to Mr. Platt, actually. Very bummed to see him go so fast. I mean, at first, I was kind of like, well, but I think, I think he was actually going to do Buffy some good and Buffy was ready to totally open up. Unfortunately, Mr. Platt was dead. Yeah. Yeah. What did you think of him? Oh, yeah. I like him. He was really no nonsense kind of guy. Yeah. He's got his little red crystal ball. And it's pretty much like a FU to the school. I'm going to smoke in my office, whether you want me to or not. But I couldn't help but wondering, you know, Debbie said she has to go see him because she's flunking bio. Yeah. Did kids have her flunking classes have to go see the counselor? I was never flunking a class. I'm not sure. But I think there are better ways to deal with flunking a class like extra time spent on that class. Yeah. I don't know. Debbie was tough. Debbie, Debbie was tough because I went from hating her to feeling terrible for her to then being like, what the heck happened here? Sounds like she was going to leave, Petey. Why didn't she just go ahead and do it when he then got worse? Well, it's the battered woman syndrome. Oh, I definitely hear that. No, I'm sorry. I mean, it sounded like she was going to break up with him before he started taking the juice. So it seemed like it was like the juice was his way of getting her back. So that's what I don't understand. No, absolutely. If she was always in that cycle with him, then 100%. But she seemed like she was almost done with him. Yeah. But I don't know if we can trust what Pete was saying about motivation, right? Because he was blaming everything on her. Yeah. You know, like you, what are all your actions are forcing me to do all this, which is such abuser language. Oh, absolutely. So I think Pete was just an abuser. Maybe even before he became violent, Mr. Hyde. Well, that I shall take your interpretation under advisement, because that makes it easier for me to understand. And that maybe all of this was just in his head that he was thinking about leaving her and so the whole thing. Yeah, that, okay, that that helps. Then I have a great deal more empathy for Debbie, because it does seem like they've all been friends for a really long time. So this relationship has probably been going on for a very long time with her MPD. Yeah. Yeah. Hard for me to even say PD. Well, you can just say P. Maybe she is seen. Maybe that's the reason she's seen the counselor, but maybe it's actually a deeper reason that she's having to see the counselor. Well, I think probably yes, that is. And I think she professed to not like him because she was afraid he was going to find out about the abusive relationship. The episode did make me curious about what the current stats are for particularly teen violence, he dating violence. And so from the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence, what's the year of this data? So it's 2015, which is a little bit ago, but not for this kind of study. Right, because it takes a few years to get it all organized and analyzed. So this at this time, it was almost 21% of female high school students and a little over 13% of male high school students report being physically or sexually abused by a dating partner. And then it says nearly 1.5 million high school students in the US are physically abused by dating partners every year. A 2013 study of 10th graders found that 35% had either been physically or verbally abused. 31% were perpetrators of physical or verbal abuse. 2014 study, 10% of teenage students and dating relationships were coerced into sexual intercourse in the previous year. 2013 study, 26% of teens and relationships were victims of cyber dating abuse, with females being twice as likely to be the victims as males. 57% of teens know someone who's been physically sexually or verbally abusive in a dating relationship. Unsurprisingly, only 33% of teenage dating abuse victims ever told anyone about it. Still, and after all these decades, still that silence. Yeah. Well, I fear being stat. 50% of youth reporting dating violence and rape also reported attempting suicide. Oh, yeah, sad. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I would like to see what those what the rates were like in the 90s and even the 80s, is it getting better? Is it getting worse? I don't know if there's a longitudinal study, there's got to be. So yeah, it's but it's terrible. It is, it is a, it's a terrible thing to hear. And it, and it does take a terrible emotional toll, right? And there's a lot of guilt and what did I do? You know, right, what should I have done? Oh, I'm so stupid for being in this, you know, right? Okay, stuff that is not so. Yeah, those are some pretty sobering numbers. They are. They are. And that cyber component. Oh my God, I'm so glad I didn't have to deal with that. Oh my gosh. At age, I mean, that just nothing dies, right? Nothing goes away. Yep. There's everything's got a record. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, this is good. I feel better about this. And then I've got to say, I'm not sure I totally approve of everything that Willow and Buffy did with Debbie. Oh gosh, no, I was in her situation. I'm like, well, let's just keep the abuse on the poor girl. Exactly. Exactly. Go find, go find Pete, right? I mean, this is, this is the one who needs to be. Yeah. And what ends up happening? She dies. Yep. Right. He kills her. Yep. Yep. I was wondering that, well, I'm going to say no, because I'll forget, and it's pertinent at this point. So I was wondering in that end scene, right? Because Angel ends up killing Pete then. Yes. And you see Buffy and Angel standing there, and then you can see Pete and Debbie on the floor dead. And I was kind of wondering if if Marty Knox and who wrote this episode was kind of not foreshadowing, but implying that if Angel and Buffy stay together, the same thing's going to happen to them. Wow. Like they'll end up. Interesting. Yeah. Whether they end up killing each other or whatever. Well, and Buffy has already killed Angel. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So excellent there. And I think we can maybe even, I know that those were the two in the room, but the other Beauty and the Beast couple we have in this episode is also Willow and Oz. Right. And we definitely have a point in time where Oz is like, get away from me. I know it's in the moment and he wants to get away, and he just wants to be alone, but he's got to get in his cage, so he's got to tell Willow to go. So I empathize with Oz for just needing a moment. Right. But he also, I think, is recognizing just the depth of his danger to this woman he loves. Right. Because of who he is. So I think we can really draw that to the other couple as well. Right. Right. The cautionary tale of Petey and Debbie. Petey and Debbie. I think, again, it's not as good as the one episode that I had the total turnaround on last season. Yes. Oh, yes. The one, the other one where Buffy kills Angel. But I think kind of thinking about this episode more critically, I think there's a little bit more to it than on the surface. But I still have it turned around on it at all. Yeah. No. And I do not like this one nearly as much as I did like the one you're talking about with them playing out the couple who died long ago. Yes. I liked that much better than this one. But yeah, I think there's we've been able to dig into some stuff here. And I like that. But Mr. Pat, big loss. Yeah. I do think he was an ad. And I liked that Buffy was feeling like she could talk to him. Yeah. But we only get the one conversation. What a bummer. Yeah. What a bummer. I did like this. Nothing near the scene we were just talking about there. But when we see the library and Charles and Zander are in there and, you know, they're kind of panicking because they know that Jeff Orkin has been killed. Yes. And in us walks, it is like they need to panic. And us just says like just thought poker, not your game. Oz is great. Yes. Oz is great. And Oz, I know I'm jumping again. But Oz does the best thing for Debbie, I think possible is he tells her he's there for her. Right. He's just like, are you okay? And if you need to talk, I'm here. You know, I loved Oz's reaction. Right. And if he didn't have all this other, yeah, if Oz didn't have all his other crap going on, it wasn't Oz's time of the month. I think he might have even taken that further, you know, but he has to do his cage. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that you can tell Oz is freaking out, even though it's the most calm freak out you ever see anybody do. But it's like, he always becomes like the kind of stiff a little bit, even though his demeanor is still quite calm. But man, Seth Green does such a good job of being able to let you know that yes, but I am freaking out a little bit here. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because Willow is clearly intelligent right way beyond her years. But I wouldn't call her wise beyond her years. No. I feel like Oz is not only intelligent beyond his years, but is also wise and mature beyond his years. Yes, yes. So yes. And very good for Angel, because I, for Angel, I can't call it Willow Angel. Very good for Willow because he will respect her. You know, he will treat her with the patience and hair that she deserves. Yeah. It's a special person that will step up to that. And as long as he's in human form, pauses up to the task. Right. Right. Well, I really thought Platt was going to be important. I didn't know if he was going to end up being a vampire or, you know, I don't know what I thought or another watcher. I don't know what I thought Platt was going to be, but I thought he was going to have a role. And I was wrong. Yes, you were. He's down immediately. Why did I even admit it? Yeah. But it seemed like a significant intro to somebody who could really be important, but he was yet another created victim for Pete to kill because of jealousy. So that was his only, that was really his only role. Yeah. I did think it was funny how that cleaned up this line when he says, you know, love becomes your master and you're just its dog. And I'm like, man, and that would have been on cable in the day that they would have said, you're just its bitch. Instead of saying, you know, you're just its dog. I'm like, well, that I guess that's one way to clean up that line. Now we're back in the library. Scoobs are all looking quite glum. We're deal. Yeah, still stating the obvious. I was eight someone last night. Very nice. Yeah. He actually snorted. Yeah, she's got a good lines as usual. Yep. Yep. Then a little light B and E in the morgue. Yeah, that scene was kind of funny. Did you? We're doing a fine here. Yes. You don't sneak up when we're doing crime. I do have a trivia question from the morgue scene. Okay. Oh, dear. It's not about Willow's forensic degree, but go ahead. Well, no, but it is about her forensic toolbox. Oh, dear. Okay. What was she using as her little forensic toolbox? Oh, I don't know. It was a Scooby-Doo lunchbox. Oh, my gosh. Now that you say it, I do recall, but that's awesome. I know she took like a tweezers out of it to get the hairs, the hair transfers, but yeah, I'd forgotten that it was lunchbox. Nice. That's an awesome, that's an awesome trivia that I should have remembered. Yeah, you can see Scooby and Chaggy on the front of the lunchbox. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. So, we're in the morgue. Yes. And my gosh, Willow, I love how later her forensics adoptees is inclusive. I'm like, I'm sure she's still substituting. I'm like, how many professions does this woman qualify for? Quite a few. Did you at all, were you at all curious as to why Willow passed out? Well, I think she... No, no. I wasn't. I just assumed that she was being a strong little Willow while she was collecting evidence and kind of holding back her horror at being with this dead body. And it's slashed wounds and stuff like that. And then it was kind of like maybe the total drop in adrenaline. Okay. That's kind of how I've always interpreted that. Okay. Yeah. I found it a little mysterious. I know that the others were reacting to it and gagging and all this sort of stuff. But I thought she was just remaining incredibly clinical about the whole thing. But yeah, maybe it was just then that as she finished up, that then her humanity came in and she was like, oh God. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, why is she painting? So, okay. I'll take it. And then we're at the mansion. We're being happy, manages to find the convenient set of manacles. Yeah. She attaches to something that does not hold him forever. Yeah, I had written, oh, poor angel all chained up, not. I was like, he's going to get his ass. I'm just surprised it took him so long. Agreed. Yeah. Okay. Unnecessary swipe. That Giles makes it Buffy about saying, I didn't know you knew what the card index is for. Oh, yes. Giles on. But this was an interesting way for her to try to get this information out of him. What would Angel be like if he were back? Right. Most likely he'd be a monster. But of course, what kind of monster? This will be my trivia question. What kind of monster would Angel probably probably be? There were two monsters that Giles put forth. I know exactly what you're talking about. I know the scene. I can see them. Buffy's standing there and Giles is now sitting down. One of them is, I don't remember exactly what he says, I almost wrote it down. One is totally unable to tap into any humanity. Yeah. There's the one that is just no hope. Right. They are evil through a thrill. Yeah. And the other one hand a little bit wants to be redeemed. Ah, yes. Okay. So, of course, we're sure Angel is the type of monster that wants to be redeemed. Yes. Yes. Yep. And he'll do it. Of course, we're kind of setting it up that he'll do it with the love of a good woman. So, Buffy will be his touchstone to his humanity. Yep. But clearly we see he's still got the werewolf in him. Right. We see that because we didn't totally see werewolf. I mean, he just seemed like monstrosity, human or otherwise. Right. At first. But then as he's killing Pete, I think he's vampiric as he's killing Pete. Yeah. He's got his, yeah. Vampir face on. Of course. Perfectly shirtless. Yeah. I did find it just comes in the movie. In this episode. Yeah. I did. So, when Buffy first sees Angel in the woods, right, and they have their little tussle. And then when he's first manigold, he's wearing socks. Oh my gosh. And then when he breaks free, he's wearing shoes. Oh my gosh. Where'd he get the shoes? Exactly. And how did he put them on? Yeah. When he was manigold. When he's, yeah. Ridiculous. Yeah. I don't even know why I caught that. I'm like, wait a minute, her and shoes. You're good at that kind of thing. You really are. Yes. So, I just think Buffy sucked back in. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, they got a nice little throwback in that scene between Buffy and Giles to episode one, right, with Anne with the whole time moving differently in the demon dimension. Yes. Which they kind of totally screwed up in Anne. Yes. They sure did. Yeah. They should. Oh, we've been gone for no time at all. Yeah. I did want to kind of knock Willow upside the head and say, did you not learn from the episode where you were talking about Giles and his clucking when he gets angry that you shouldn't talk without first really knowing who's all in the room. And then she's like, this time it's not your boyfriend who's the cold-blooded. Jellita. Oh, hi. Shows up. Hello. Yeah. Come on, Willow. Yeah. Think a little bit here, woman. Yep. Gosh, you know, and I don't know if this is coming through, and I'm really not enjoying talking about this episode. Well, we put in a good amount of time, so we could move pretty quickly through the rest of it. That cafeteria scene. Okay. You know, Buffy walks up with the show. Oh, and but I was just like, I have written in my notes, WTF is up with this Pete Yahoo, and why is a dream journal a Barbie thing? Yep. And why is he also now kind of showing evidence of homophobia? Right. Do you dream journal? Why is it 10 come around since he got that earring? I'm like, really, dude? I know it's like really writers, you know, the men were in the 80s, and they weren't all gay. Oh, yeah. Pete descends into intolerable for the rest of the episode. Mm-hmm. And literally in taller. Yeah. This is what I, part that I absolutely could not abide in this episode, but yes. So all of that. And on a much lighter note, you know, I'm always on Buffy and Food Watch because I just, I don't really appreciate how often they're like, they have her not eat or, you know, and once again, she has a plate of jello, and then eats none of that right because she just can't possibly get any food down. I don't know. I don't, I don't like what that says. I don't, I don't care for it. Anyway, it is perfectly fine to have good meals during time. Eat a light salad. You know, have a cup of broth. Oh, goodness. Anyway, anyway, so yes, Pete, Pete is awful. Oh my god. That whole exchange in the storage room. I was like, well, they got the, I think they got the abuse of relationship and the kind of language down. Yeah, for this episode, which of course makes it very disturbing. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And you can see, you know, you're isolating her both physically and mentally, right? I'm all you've got now. Yes. Yes. You know, you make me mad. I couldn't even write the phrases down. And when he was hitting her, it was just like, Oh my god. Yeah, that's really tough. It was awful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oz was pretty amazing. And if he'd had more time with her, the whole ending might have been yeah, different. But Oz was also just used as a tool because now he goes after us. And we lose Mr. Platt. Oh my gosh. And I do have to say this is unrealistic given the violence that occurred to Mr. Platt's face that he was still holding his cigarette. I mean, come on. Yeah. He didn't even lift a hand. I don't think so. Well, you know, Buffy did say it happened super fast. Yes, I don't say it. I don't believe that you don't spasmodically move your hands forward. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, and we were talking a little bit about this earlier, but I really was kind of upset at how Buffy was speaking to Debbie. Oh, yes. Me too. I mean, no sympathy. Sometimes Buffy just has sometimes she has all of the empathy in the world. Yeah. And then when there's obviously a person in this kind of distress in front of her, she has none. Yeah. Yeah. I've got Oh my God. Don't be on the victim. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Willow. I think we broke her. And Buffy, I think she was broken before this. Broken isn't a kind term. That's not. It isn't. The only other kind of fun thing that happened in this episode was when Buffy shot Giles in the mask. Giles gets tranquilized. I have beast against beast and Giles gets tranquilized. And he's like, right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I have to terribly admit that I did not think of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde with this potion until our incredibly extensive debrief. Everything that had happened in the episode. And I was like, Oh, yeah, that is totally Jekyll. And I didn't think of it. And I was like, God, they're really doing a long little debrief. And I was like, Well, I guess I needed it. So and of faith really took a long time with this trank getting I could I'm like, you've got a shot. But anyway, she finally got him. Yes. And Oz also gets tranked right behind. Yes. But then we have angel taken out Pete, which thank goodness. Thank goodness Pete is down. I don't know what quite we're supposed to make of this if Angel is looking for a puppy. I mean, you know, Angel's just right on the scene here. And I really mean Angel this time, not Willa. Angel is on the scene. Maybe looking for a puppy, see, she's in trouble and takes out her phone, which she should have been able to take out herself. So I don't know. I don't know. This was really kind of interesting. Though I must admit, I was incredibly touched by the full, prostrate angel, you know, kind of around both these legs, you know, just sort of like, Oh my god, you know, like I'm home or whatever. I don't know. I was touched by that. I the lead up to it. And why couldn't Buffy have taken care of the bad guy herself? And right she needed to be saved by Angel, whatever. Right. I don't know. But his his final moment with her was was I was touched. I mean, I was touched. Yeah. Yeah. Just a glimmer of the humanity. Yeah, he's not human, technically. Yeah. But the human part of Angel, right, seemed to have returned. Yeah. But now, of course, Buffy's gonna need to let Scott down easy because now she's back. We haven't had that confirmed. I mean, she just talks to Scott, but yeah, I think there's no doubt about it. I mean, she's clearly not over Angel, which is understandable. Right. But now he's back. Yes. And what hijinks will ensue now? What? What hijinks? Well, ensue indeed. Yeah. I kind of want to say, you know, bravo to them for taking on the dating violence, teen dating violence thing. And they do take on, you know, teen issues sometimes, but it's just not one of their better episodes. And it might have been a little more helpful if there had been more talk like Oz and maybe Debbie did end up being saved from this stuff. Yeah. You know, instead of so quickly that, you know, maybe things you can do to help someone that you think might be in one of these relationships. It would have been nice if Debbie could have been saved. Yeah. But once again, we see Buffy can't save everybody. Right. But it didn't have to be Buffy. Yeah. It didn't have to be Buffy saving her, I think is my point. I think Oz was, was trying, you know, if this was a message from the writers to try to help, you know, help with this public, with this social issue. Right. Here's something that maybe Willow does and Oz does and maybe Giles somehow gets involved and doesn't get trained. Right. Right. Whatever. I don't know. Well, I guess there was quite a bit of criticism directed to Marty Knox and that, you know, this episode was all about hating men. Oh, are you kidding me? No. No. It was those kind of kind of, you know, like face like, oh, men are bees and things like that that led to somebody's criticisms. And I don't think that was the purpose. I think, as I was saying, I think they were kind of using particularly that end scene to suggest that, you know, this is potentially something that could happen to Buffy and Angel. So, well, it almost did already. So many times it seemed like Bad Angel was just playing with Buffy. Yeah. And could have ended her on multiple occasions. That's true. That is true. So I think that is just so real. I don't know what the future holds here with them. I don't know what his status is now. But yeah. And I see the whole men piece. But again, I do think it is valid that when any of us is pushed, right? We do. I mean, civility is a mirror of a mirror. Yeah. So I do think, you know, maybe it's just better to say instead of all men are bees. Well, we'll just say all men are beasts and use that assumption that everybody thinks that when they're talking about men, they're talking about everybody, right? Right. Right. All men are created equal. All people are created equal. Well, why don't you say that? Well, I mean, technically, we are animals. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then we go back and then we go back to her very intentional choice of call of the wild. Yeah. Yep. We are all animals. Yeah. And under certain conditions, we can all not seem to have that. Yeah. I mean, when I say human, I mean, that animal side is part of being human. So yeah, this veneer of civility, this civilization, this civilized part, the, the mass, the it an ego, right? The super ego having having sway. Well, sometimes super ego gets the boot. It's super ego, right? That's sort of the highest one. I don't remember. I think I think it is. Yes, super ego. Yes. That makes sense that it's the highest one. Yeah. Sometimes our super ego takes the day off. Yeah. So I did not, yeah, I'm, I'm unchanged. In my ranking, I would still put it in the middle. I'm not gonna put it in the bottom. It did give me some pause for thought. There were definitely parts that were very uncomfortable. I wish some things might have been done a little differently. But I think some things were depicted very fairly. And yeah, yeah, I really like what you say about the cautionary tale. It framed right there. The Romeo and Juliet are dead on the floor right next to this other couple. Watch yourselves. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the next episode is called Homecoming. Okay. So we, well, I won't say any more. Okay. Okay. Well, angels, angels home. So I'm dead. We'll see what's happening now. Yes, we will. Yes, we will. Okay. Well, then I guess all we got to do now is say goodbye. Thanks for listening, everybody. Wallowing in the shallows is created and produced by the both of us, edited by Mo. The soundtrack for the Wallowing in the shallows, Buffy the Vampire Slayer season three rewatch is Apache Rock Instrumental by SoundItelier, available on gemento.com. You can send us feedback at which TV pod at gmail.com. That's W-I-T-S-T-V-P-O-D at gmail.com. Subscribe. And subscribe. And subscribe. Subscribe. Hit that subscribe button. Like and subscribe.
