(upbeat music) - Welcome to Wallowing in the Shallows, the podcast that skirts the perilous drop off of a deep dive into television and movies. We are academic nerds, aspiring to become TV and movie geeks. There are no spoiler guards in the shallows, so listen at your own rims. This week, join us for a wallow in a puffy the vampire slayer, season three, watch. (upbeat music) - Hey, hello peeps, welcome to Wallowing in the Shallows. This is Tori. - And this is Rebecca. And today we are talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season two, episode three, Faith, Hope and Trick. - Hey, you know, I did look at the opening credits again and the cat's gone, Amy's dad is gone. - Okay, so you verified that. - I did, I did. Oh, and by the way, if any of our listeners have happened to look in the show notes for episode one of season three for the, or no, it would have been the season ending wrap up episode. We did, you know, 'cause I mentioned I had-- - Of episode two, I have season two. - Season two, yeah, and I had gone through the credits scene or the opening credits scene and wrote them down, written down the episodes that those clips were from. - Right. - We still haven't done that because I was grading and then I had time to type it up. - Girl, you get, you get a pack. - In fact, let's go ahead and say if the people wanna email us. - Yeah. - It's WhitsPod, what's your email back on? - WhitsTVPod. - WhitsTV, sorry. WhitsTVPod@gmail.com, people, I check it daily. So more than daily, I get notified. So please feel free to email us. I don't think we, I don't think we talk up our email address enough. - Yeah, that's really just in the end thing. - Yes, but I'm gonna work on that. (laughing) WhitsTVPod@gmail.com. You'd think I'd know it since I check it every day, but I don't look, I just, I think it just says a Gmail address or something. It doesn't even have its name on my phone. But anyway. - Nice, okay. I just thought I'd throw that in there. - Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. - Yeah, so Faith Hope and Trick, what'd you think of this episode? - Yeah, well, it was funny because I was like, there was a part where I said, well, when's this dream sequence with Angel because he's got, he's on the title. And then like the next scene was a dream sequence with Angel but then at the end, we have his rebirth. I'm not sure, he's naked as a jaybird. So that is significant. I really like Trick. I didn't like the guy that died. Kinda look or whatever his name is. (speaking in foreign language) - Kakistos. - Kakistos. Didn't like him and his fake cloven hooves. - Yeah. - But Trick, Trick felt a little bit like spiky, you know, that he was like going to self-preservation. We're outta here, let him fight his own thing. Don't know what they're gonna be doing with Mr. Hope. I feel like that was just so that they could have Faith Hope and Trick. I'm not sure, I'm not sure. But anyway, it was better. I think, I guess I'm gonna say, I think it's the best episode. - This season so far, but I don't know how much that's saying. - Yeah, Rolling Stone rated this number 73. - Okay, okay, which is a little higher than some of the season three episodes so far, right? - Yeah, I do have a summary. - Oh, please, please share. - There's a new Slayer in town. (laughing) - Well done. - Okay, that pretty much takes care of it. - Yeah. - That well delivered, but hats off my friend, that was good. - Thank you. - Yeah, I was like, I think I'm just gonna go super short. - Loved it, so we still have this confusion of this whole, there's two slayers thing. - Yep. - And I guess that's going to continue, add in for an item now because each time one of them dies, there's another one that's gonna be there. Did you have any question about why there would be a watchers retreat? And then we find out Giles isn't invited and the other currently active watchers is dead. So who are these watchers that are getting together for this retreat? - Well, I think there clearly is a retreat because Giles waxes nostalgic about it, even though he's never been to it. - Yeah. - I don't think that retreat was happening just then. I think that was faith line. - Oh, okay. - But I don't know, I mean, Jesus. All sorts of groups have retreats, so why not watchers? - But my question again is, who's in the group? - Oh, who are all the watchers? Oh, yeah, because there's only one slayer at a time. - Are these ones whose slayers have died and they're still kicking around? - Maybe. - I just don't understand how the watcher of the one of two slayers does not score an invite. - Well, maybe they think him being there is more important than being at the, being in Sunny D is more important than being at the retreat. - Okay, but it sounded like there was some professional development involved as well and some delicious. - How to train your slayer with a cudgel. - I feel like I'd be more inclined to believe that it was a lie that it was even going on right now, but for that Giles doesn't get invited. So it sounds like it happens on a regular basis without him being invited. - It does sound like that, doesn't it? - Yeah, okay, so it's trouble, but we can set that aside. I can get over it with that word. - All righty. Yeah, so we open with a cold opening in front of Sunny D. Hi, well on us discussing being able to go off campus for lunch and willow being willow. And then of course, Sander and Cordelia show up. But I have to say, what the hell was that dress Cordelia was wearing? - I was like, okay, I actually like willow sweater and Cordelia looks ready for the boardroom. Wasn't sure what was happening here. She was just taking a little time off. - Yes, yeah, I actually wrote down, and she looked like a 40 year old sales woman at Macy's or something. - Yeah, that works. - That works. - Why, why did the costume department go that way? - I don't know. - I don't know either. I'm trying to let it go, but I clearly can't. - You know it's severe when I notice. - Yes. - For sure, for sure. - But I do love, I mean, Cordelia is consistent in her, her comments. - We mean 'cause of how the only guy that ever liked her turned into a vicious killer and had to be put down like a dog. - Thank you, Cordelia. Yeah, yeah. And I did think naming that one character, Scott Hope was a little heavy handed. - Yes, I said Scott Hope is holding out Hope for Buffy. - Yeah, and then it represents that Hope that Buffy can get the hell over Angel. - Yes. - Yes, and so far he seems like a good dude, but is he, we just don't know yet. You know, these things often turn nefarious. - He annoyed me, and he's always annoys me. And not just because I've never said this on the podcast. I see it now. I've always been Team Angel. And it's not that because I'm Team Angel. I don't like Scott. I just, I'm like, he's two vanilla. - Sure. - I was gonna say, I was gonna say like all American fresh face football jersey and not football. Let's basketball maybe, I don't know. - Wrestling maybe. - Wrestling, yes, let's give Scott Hope wrestling. - And I thought it was really stupid of this kid to give her a ring and then out on a date. I'm like, come on, dude. - Oh my God. - What are you thinking? - Oh, could not agree more with you because actually I thought he was pretty cool. And tell that I was kind of like, okay, that's cool. He's played his bid, he's being honest. And he says, hey, if you come by the dance floor, I'm there, you know, walks away. I thought that was pretty swab. And then he gives her a ring. - Yeah. - I mean, I know she had- - I don't want to be pushy or anything, but I'm gonna use ring. - She had PTSD about it. But I mean, I'd be like, whoa, dude. You know, rings are too significant with promising and engagement and marriage. You know, this is just such a bad idea. You know, give her a couple of flowers. You know, there could be some classy things to give, but not a ring. And those rings are meaningful, you know. But it doesn't matter. I don't even care what kind of ring it was. Jewelry is not appropriate at this point. I don't even think- - Oh, hell no. No, no jewelry, no jewelry. - Mm-mm, no, it was, I think we needed, I think they were trying to come up with this symbol that would just rock, rock-buffy to the core, which it did, which I totally understood for her reaction. - Yes. - But I think even if I had nothing to do with Angel, I'd be like, "Stalker much, this is weird." - That's the exact word I wrote down, stalker. - Yeah, yeah, I felt like that was, I mean, I even kind of liked when she was waiting, when she was waiting for him to come out of class and he's like, "I don't know, I really might need some time "to think about it." He flocked a few steps and he goes, "Okay, I thought about that." - Yeah, that was cute. - I thought that was kind of cute. - So other than the ring, I kinda liked, I keep wanting to say Bob Hope, I kinda liked Scott Hope, but that ring really pulled him down. So I lead the episode with a bad taste in my mouth, but if he hadn't made the mess step with the ring, I would have had a pretty positive overall impression of him. - Yeah, that was the one thing that was really kind of bad. - So Buffy's made a whole spread for the entire group from lunch right across the school campus. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - Yeah, I thought the conversation had to have. - I thought Xander's comment did not age well. And Buffy's like, "I just wanna get back to normal stuff," and Xander's like, "Oh, you wanna date?" I saw that half smile, you little slut. I'm like, "Did people use slut a lot?" And then eight nineties, I don't remember it. - I sure don't either. - Xander, I wrote down at that exact comment. I wrote down Xander as a doofus, but that was not harsh enough. That was not good. - I, yeah, you know, Cordelia uses a similar phrase later in the episode, and I'm like, "Really?" - Yeah. - I mean, well, I have problems when I hear, particularly when other women are calling other women bitches and sluts and things like that. I'm like, "We have to deal with it from men enough." - Let's not do it to each other. - Yeah, so I know that I have bias towards that. I'll just come out and say that. But I just don't remember using that, except for somebody I really dislike. - As I'm sure we'll come as a great shock to you. - That was never a word in my vocabulary. - Even if I thought someone was maybe promiscuous, exactly, I might've used the word promiscuous, but I don't even think I would have made such a statement. - No, it would be out of character. I would be totally shocked. - Yes, there are parts of me that have been very consistent throughout my life and my prudish use of harsh language. (both laughing) - Yeah, this one podcast I listened to, the women have started using the C word a lot, and I just want to go, "Please, stop." It's making it to the point where I'm probably going to stop listening to it, 'cause that word in particular really bugs me. - Me too, I mean, yes, this is not a word I need to reclaim. - No, no. - Or claim period. - Right. - Yes, yes. - All right, I'll get off of that now. - Well, I think it was worth discussion because we do see these things that age well, don't age well, and sometimes it is just like, yeah, it was a different time, and that's pretty representative. - Yeah, yeah. And usually I say that really quickly, but I guess I was just twice in one episode. I'm like, "That's a lot in one episode." - Yeah. - But yes. - Yes. - Happy Burger. - This, I loved this introduction of Mr. Trek. Him coming, him coming out with Sunny D is all white, but they are ready for some. (both laughing) - You gotta just stand up and salute that death rate. - I'm like, "Yes, I just loved him." And I loved his comment, DC, like this, DC to Mayberry. - Yeah, that was great comment. - I just loved everything about it. And then I love how he took the to go guy to go. - Yeah. - I just, I didn't, again, didn't like the cloven hoof chap. Pacistos, but this Mr. Trek, I hope we see him again. And again, just like Spike when he saw that the chips were in the, the cards were in the wrong direction. He folded and walked away. - Yeah, I made that mental note too. I'm like, "Oh, you know, I never really realized how much Mr. Trek is like Spike." Self-preservation is key. - Yeah, and I love, I do, I must admit, I love this edition of Diversity. I really hope we see him again. I did, there were just several times. And he kind of talked fast. And so sometimes I miss some of what he was saying, but I'm like, "What I'm pickin' up, I'm enjoying." (both laughing) - Do you like the modern vampire? - I guess so. (both laughing) - It referred to himself that way. I think at least more than once, but yeah, and that poor Happy Burger employee, I was like, "Man, he just showed up for his minimum wage shift, and ends up getting pulled through the drive-through window to be a vamp snack. What a day." - Yes. (both laughing) - And the bait and switch or whatever totally did, - We switched me in that trick me, whatever. In that I was like, "Gosh, when did Buffy, I don't remember this guy, and I don't remember Buffy nearly taking out his eye." And so that was kind of cool, but it was that he was after Faith. - Yeah, yeah, that's one of the tricks. Hey, you know, that's really cool. I hadn't thought about that as being one of the tricks. - Yeah, I didn't read all of the myth of metaphor, guys. Stuff on there. But he only identified three tricks. He did not identify that one. - Oh. - Yeah, he had done, he says, you know, Jael's tricks Buffy into finally giving up the ghost there. - Yes, yes. - The key stoves, and this one I didn't really get, he says, "Cakey stoves tricks the slayers into a trap." Kind of, yeah, yeah. And then, maybe this one I didn't really get. Faith tries to trick Buffy into dealing with Kakistos for her. - I don't think she tricked her. I think she full out, said, "I'm not up for fighting this guy." - Yeah, yeah. - I do recall them saying this was a trap. I don't know how it was a trap, but I do remember them saying that. But yeah, Faith tricking, now I think she was deceptive in not revealing anything about Kistos, but then again, why would she, she didn't realize he was there until Buffy told her? So she may have been running away. Now she did hide that her watcher was dead. She lied about that. - Yeah. - But I don't think she was deceptive along the Kakistos lines when she was confronted, she came right out with it. - Yeah, yeah. I think, well, the trick with Kakistos in the trap was that they kind of herded them that way, right? They had Kakistos following them. And then the other vamps were like coming around the other way and so they were trying to, you know, kind of trap them in that area. - Yeah, no, I'll buy that one. I'll buy that one. - But yeah, yeah, I didn't really buy the Faith one. I like your trick better. - Nice, thank you. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah, and Giles's trick was very slick and I think quite cathartic for Buffy because then she goes back to the place and leaves the ring and she kind of seems like she's moving forward and just when she gets out, they pull her back in. - Yep. - Because Angel has returned, so. - Yeah, I really like how sometimes Giles is so intuitive about Buffy. - Yeah. - You know, he just really gets that. Well, I mean, she wasn't all that subtle about, you know, being kind of a rose and still grieving Angel and stuff, and the fact that she was kind of flippant when he would ask her to describe what happened. So, but yeah, he was good daddy in this episode. - And I mean, you know, I, even if Angel didn't turn back into Angel, I can't even imagine 'cause clearly she did love Angel. She was very wrapped up in him. Even if he was bad Angel and she had to kill him as bad Angel, that's still pretty horrific, right? - Yeah, yeah. - So, I am not surprised. She's not ready to date. I'm not surprised, whatever. I do not begrudge her this morning period. - Yeah. - 'Cause what has it been? It's been the whole summer. What has it been like three months? I mean, this happened right before the last day of school. - Right. - And now they're back at school. So, the summer has passed. That's not a lot of time. - It's not. And I was kind of mad at Willow. I'm like, why are you pushing this on her? - Yeah. - So, like two episodes in a row, I'm mad at Willow. - Let her work on her for a while. Let her love her. - Yeah, yeah. Let her, you know, people go through grief in different ways and it takes different lengths of time. Let her alone. - Yeah. Yeah. - Now, if we were 10 years down the line and she's still piney prey. - Different story. - Different story. - Different story. - But just a summer and she spent that summer in a separated location. - Yeah. - So now she's back in that space that she shared with him and has been there for like a week or two. - Yeah. - I mean, I think it's pretty insensitive to think that she should just be over it. - Agreed. Agreed. - Yeah, I know I already alluded to this, but after the limo scene, I literally wrote, will there be another dream sequence with Angel? Next scene, back at the bronze. Yep, another dream sequence. - Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny in that bronze scene in the dream sequence, I was like, what is with that white shirt on Angel? Not that it was the most casual shirt we've ever seen on Angel. - Yes, he looked more dressed up and formal when he was without his shirt on, but had leather pants on. I was like, I don't like this casual look for Angel. - I think it was very intentional on two levels. - Okay. - I think a practical level. - So the blood we show about it. - Nothing shows blood better than white, exactly. And this sort of unjustified, but understandable in Buffy's head, this sort of sacrificial lamb innocent lamb, you know, this kind of thing that when she actually killed him, he was quote unquote innocent, you know? And of course, since it's in Buffy's head, she's just layering on the additional guilt. - That makes total sense, thank you. I hadn't even gone there. - Absolutely, absolutely. But I do agree, did seem very out of character, though he wore it well. (laughing) - He looks good. - Oh, he looks better at the end of the episode. - Oh, goodness, I may not be Team Angel. And by that, I mean, Angel with Buffy, but I do like his character, you know. So I'm Team Angel with- - You like his character, Rebecca? (laughing) - Yep, and so I like his character. I'm not big on Angel for Buffy. - Okay, sorry, I got myself on track in my head 'cause I went straight to the last scene of the episode. - Oh, yes, naked as a jaybird. - Naked as a jaybird. - I don't even know where that comes from, but I think it's jaybird. - It's not even naked as a jaybird. - I don't even know what a jaybird is. - I know what a blue jay is, but- - Where does that, I wonder where that phrase comes from? - It's Tangent Time. - Yeah! - Tangent Time. - Do we need to find out? - Do we need to find out? - What is the origin of naked as a jaybird? - Here we go. - I sure hope it doesn't end up being something offensive. - Okay, okay, here we go. Naked as a jaybird is an idiom with an uncertain origin. - Oh, I'm certain. - Okay, the expression naked as a jaybird was coined in the United States as early as the mid-1800s, though its popularity rose from the 1920s onward. The early iteration usually seen in the mid-1800s is naked as a fledgling jaybird. Now that makes more sense because little baby birds, when they're born, they're ugly as sin. - Some people forgot what fledgling meant, so they just dropped that word. - Yeah, so that makes more sense. Jaybird is an abbreviation of the word jailbird, meaning someone who is an inmate in a jail. When the new inmates are processed in jails, they are stripped naked and disinfected before they receive new prisoner uniforms. - Okay, that's my thing. - An idiom naked as a jaybird comes from the original idiom, naked as a fledgling, or the alternative source, naked as a jaybird, or a combination of both is unknown. - That alternative source may be starting to border-appensive. (laughing) - Yeah, interesting, okay. - Okay. - And again, that's from grammarist. - Okay. - Excellent. - Off the tangent. - Off the tangent train, choo-choo. (laughing) - No, I lost track with the hell we were we at? - Okay. - We were in the dream sequence, but- - Yes, I'm done with it. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, and then we're snotters office. - Why have I singing everything? First, I can't speak any English, and then I'm singing it all, I don't know. (laughing) - This is where Joyce shines the most, apparently. - Yes, yeah. - She's best when she's trying to get Buffy back into school because she has fought a good fight and went to the city council, not the city council, the school board, (laughing) and so this is where she shines. - Yeah, she does seem to shine when she's fighting for Buffy, like when she pulled the axe and wept spike over the head. - Mm-hmm. - And now this, oh, I mean, Snyder, could he be more dismissive? - Missy. - He's terrible. - Yeah. - And I love how Buffy's just kind of really nonchalant, playing with the letter opener. - Now that was unnecessary. - I know, but it was funny when Snyder, like, gets up and takes it for her. - Yeah, probably a smart move, but I don't know, taking something off someone else's desk and playing with it, I have a hard time seeing myself doing that, unless it looks like something that is clearly set there, like we might have like some kind of fidget toy or something for a student who needs that kind of thing. So that, okay, I'm not a real fidget toy person, but that would be like an invitation to do this. - Right. - Taking a letter opener or, you know, just hit a other paperweight or whatever, I just, I don't know, that seems a bit intrusive. - Well, I think she was just trying to mess around with him. - Okay, well, if it was intentional, then hats off Buffy. - Yeah, I mean, I think she was trying to be as dismissive of him as she, as he was being of her, you know? And I love when she says, so I'm really back in school because the school board overruled you. - Uh-huh. - And then Joyce, Joyce really shines in this moment. And she's like. - I think what my daughter's trying to say is, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. - Yeah, like, go Joyce. Finally, something good. - Agreed, agreed. - Then who calls mysteriously? - The mayor. - I wonder how many principals, high school principals, get regular phone calls, or any kind of communication from the mayor. - See, huh? - I would imagine it would only happen when bad stuff is going on, but, mm-hmm. - But I'm not sure the mayor would do it themselves. I'm not sure at what level that would require. - Yeah, I don't know. - But I think it'd be pretty big. - Yeah, yeah. Love the next scene. - Mm. - Willow redeems herself a little bit just because it's funny. (laughs) With the whole clucking, when Giles is a bad scene and then he throws it back at her. - Are you mad at me? - Of course not, man. If I were, I would be making a strange clucking sound with my tone. - That was well done. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Did that resonate with you? Do you remember him making such a sound? Would he have been angry? - No. - Okay, yeah, me either. - I don't, but it's still funny. (laughs) - Yeah. - Oh, great. - Yeah. - I think Alison Hannigan did a good job in that scene, looking kind of sheepish. - Very sheepish is the perfect word. (laughs) - That's all I really have to say about that. - Okay, yeah. I have nothing additional. Do we return to the bronze? - I have my trivia question from the scene before we leave it. - Oh boy. So Giles expresses concern about Willow messing with the mystical forces. - Yes. - What is one of the two spells that Willow has tried? - Ha ha, not including the angel spell. - Okay, okay, no problem. Can I just describe it? Do I have to know like its name or something? - No, you can just describe it. - Okay, okay. So she definitely tried to get fire from ice but she'll never do it again with it on her bed cover. - Yeah, yeah. - I don't remember the other one though. - Floating a feather. - Yeah, not nearly as interesting. (laughs) - Yeah, okay, so now we can move on to the bronze. Now that I've got my trivia question out the way. - Okay, okay, fantastic. So yeah, so we're back at the bronze. Willow and Oz are in Make Out Corner. (both laughing) - And then come on, Willow. I mean, it seems like Scott Hope, is it Scott? - Yeah. - Yeah, Scott Hope is like a childhood friend or something. Why is Willow so into getting them together? I don't understand it. I know getting her over it but she seems to really be particularly championing Scott Hope. - Yeah. And yeah, I thought I did think this was pretty smooth of Scott to be like, okay, yeah, I'll just be over here. I'll just be over here hanging out near the dance floor. Of course, when Buffy then went by him in the dance floor. He's like, oh yeah, cool, cool, let's do this. Oh. - Yeah, that was hard to watch. (laughs) - Because of disco, boy. I was laughing so hard at this dance and I did not recognize, I didn't recognize the actor playing Faith. - A little bit. - Just her face was just, I mean, her hair was kind of, because she was just as into the disco dancing as the vamp was. So I really couldn't see her until they got outside. (laughs) I mean, this guy's whole outfit. - Yeah. - It was quite, it was quite a little deal. - Yeah. No, I did like when Cordelia referred to him as disco Dave. (laughs) But I was kind of wondering what was with Faith's outfit, right? So she's got these kind of like '90s knockoff of 1970s, kind of like groovy hippie pants, except shinier. And then the black tank I'm okay with, but what were those things on the forearms? And so I was, I pondered that because for whatever reason, it's always bugged me. I'm like, because it didn't have like the finger cutouts that you see sometimes, okay? Or stuff that people wear in their arms. I'm like, they're kind of like vampraces. And then I had a little aha moment. So then I'm like, okay, 'cause I was like cloth vampraces and then putting it together with some of the other things that Faith talks about in this episode and how she portrays herself. It's all like Faith as warrior. That's what I have come to. - I like it. - And you know, she throws out the whole five by five thing, which is from like World War II. - Oh, I didn't know that. - Yeah, yeah. It's a, it's, well now it's just slang for good, but in World War II, pilots would use it. And it was a way to measure how radio strength was. And it was on a scale of one to five. So if it was one by five, it was really bad. Like the clarity was really bad, there's a lot of static. But if it's all five by five, then the radio signal's really good. - Oh my gosh, I missed, I did not know that. Thank you for sharing that. When she kept saying five by five, I was just like thinking, okay, everything's square. You know, we're all squared away here. I thought it was that, but that's really cool. - Yeah, and then she rolls out like a Def Con one and so. So I think there's like these real subtle things about Faith as warrior, because she's much more brash about it than Buffy is. - Clearly. - You know, she's like a 180 of Buffy. - Yes. - They're the yin and the yang now, right? - And when she was beating the crap out of one of those vampires, then after finding out about what happened to her watcher, I think she was processing through some of that. You know, she wasn't able to do this to Keisto's when he was killing her watcher. And so I think she was working out through the violence. - Yes, yes. - Some of that grief. - Yeah, yeah. I would say that is so when she was especially beating that one vampire. - That's exactly what I'm talking about. - Oh, okay, sorry. I jumped ahead in my head. And so, yeah, for sure. - Hey, you know, I wanted to ask you, 'cause she clearly drops a reference to South Boston. - Yes. - Did any of her accent seem South Boston to you? - No. - Okay. - No, in fact, I was gonna try to give her a pass because, you know, not everybody in Boston speaks with a boss, you know, the typical habit. Yeah, you know, Boston accent. - Uh-huh. - South Boston is kind of particularly known for it. And if you don't, if you're gonna claim that, it just, yeah, it was a little, no. Nothing, some of her Mandarin, some of the some rashness and out there and calling her B or whatever, felt a little Boston-like. - Right. - No, nothing about her speech said Boston accent. - Okay, cool. I just wanted to add, it didn't to me either, but I've never, I mean, I've been to Boston once for three days, what do I know? Broad movies? - Yeah, no, that accent's real. I just don't draw. It is no joke. - I love that commercial with Chris Evans, of course. And John Krasinski and Rachel, I can never remember her last name. It's that car commercial. - Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I think I do, it's been a while though. So it's like- - It packs itself. It's mine, it's wicked. And I can pack it anywhere. - How about, do I chest it? - Tacked it, boss bro. - Tacked it. - Packed it. - Tacked it. - Tacked it. - Swamscat? - A habit. - Are you kidding me? - I packed it and then unpacked it. You unpacked it? - Packed the car, yeah. Yeah, and have it, yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Okay. - Yes, the Rs disappear from middle of words and show up at the end. In some cases, it's really, it's really, it's fascinating. - Yeah. - Yeah, I remember there was one woman that I worked with that I was like, is this real? Is she like, lounging me here? - She also had a very high voice. I was just like, is this really? I said nothing and it absolutely was her voice. And I'll tell you, by the time I left, it didn't strike me as weird at all. (laughing) First time I heard it. I was like, oh, yeah, anyway. - Okay, yeah, Zander. - Oh my gosh, I loved how Cordelia called them out on it. - Oh yeah. - Zander, find a new theme. - Yes, yes, yes, yes. I was like, wow, Zander. All righty. But I did love the look, like, when Face like, isn't it crazy how slain just always makes you hungry and horny and they all look at Muffy like, whoa. She like, sometimes like, crave a non-fat yogurt. - That, you know, that seemed like a guy wrote that. - Well, a guy did write that. (laughing) - Yes, it was one of their male writers for this episode. - There, there you go. 'Cause, you know, all of us, all of us, you know, 16 year olds, all we want is some fat free yogurt. (laughing) - And of course, then they use Cordelia for a little exposition about, you know, why Faith is there in case people forgot Kendra was killed. - Yes. - Not five episodes ago. - Honestly, it was actually helpful. - She said that, because I was like, what's another slayer doing around? (laughing) Where's she been? (laughing) - Forgot about Kendra, huh? - Well, I just, she didn't come off as so freshly minted. I don't know how all of these other vampire slayers just seemed to have been trained since birth. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Where was Giles? - Well, getting buffy right now. - Getting ripper. He was being ripper. - Yeah, I got a pirouly, fell down on his job. - He did, he did, yeah. I did like her, did you catch that when she was talking about the big daddy vamp? I think that's referring to Kakistos. - Could she specify? - Well, you know, she's telling the stories about her exploits. - Her exploits, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. - Over apparently the past three months in a place that isn't the Hellmouth, Hellmouth. - Hellmouth, yeah. - Yeah, well, and evidently she came to Sunny D because she's playing hooky, basically is how she's explaining it, while her watcher's in England. - And then she starts. - And then she starts. - And then she starts. - The slayer will play. Yeah, she starts to tell the story about the big daddy vamp in Missouri and rastling a gator. - Yes, yes. - One of the one, there are no gators in Missouri. Are there, they don't have swampy stuff that has gators, do they? - No, but you can raise a gator anymore. - Well, that's true. But anyways, I think she's talking about Kakistos there. - That makes a lot of sense. I remembered more about, I remembered more about the gator than I did about the big daddy vamp. - Now that you say it. - I think she's talking about Kakistos. - I bet you're right, maybe that's even where her watcher was killed. - Yeah, yeah, could be. Could be. - So it's interesting, she said like she ran away, but clearly she did nearly blind him. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - So she sells herself a little short there. - Yeah, yeah. And she lived, right? - Yeah, she lived. - That's Buffy saying that's the first lesson or first, something first layers, I haven't written down so far. - And actually, hats off to Buffy here, because as someone who puts the weight of everything on her own shoulders, takes responsibility for everything, even if it's not her fault, she is the first to tell faith, even though she doesn't really like faith very much at this point, where she's like, what are you doing here? And she's like, no, not your fault, you are not guilty. Do not put this on you. And so I loved that. I don't think it's her fault. And that just was a level of maturity that I appreciated Buffy demonstrating. - Right, well, and I think here we're seeing Buffy's experience versus faith, right? 'Cause faith's just like, I'm just gonna pummel, I'm just gonna beat, she has no finesse, really, and unlike Buffy. And so if you're going up against a vampire that's so old they have cloven feet and hands, then why would a new fledgling slayer be able to take that vamp on? And he's not alone, right? He's got his minions with them. - Absolutely, and he's been alive for how long? He's been alive so long. He now has cloven hands and feet. - Right, right. - Which, what was going on in those shoes, right? Did he needs to get special shoes? - Was he wearing shoes? - I don't even remember. I know he was wearing some kind of dashiki, but... (laughing) - Yeah, I don't put it in. - I only saw the hands. I only saw the hands. - Yeah, me too, me too, me too, me too. I'm sorry, I was just thinking about the scene. I was just looking down at my notes for the library scene, and I have faith flirts with Giles. - Yeah. - I really like the reactions of the others. - Yeah, that's poor Buffy. - Have you met Giles? - Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but Buffy clearly, not happy that Faith is there. Reluctantly inviting her to her house for dinner, doesn't wanna go patrolling with Faith. - Similar reaction to when Kendra came into town, honestly. - Yeah. And it does bristle her, it does cause her to bristle that people really like Faith. - Right. - She's so relaxed, and she's complimentary at times and very forthcoming. I mean, everybody kind of likes her now. I don't know why she is picking salad off out of the salad bowl and taking stuff off Joyce's place to take stuff, it was like she hasn't eaten in a year. But, you know, she's also in this hotel, hotel, hotel. - Right. - And this is my trivia question. - Okay. - What is the price per night for said hotel? - $18. - Could you believe that? - No, I was like, plea bag motel much? - I mean, and I definitely paid for hotels at about this time. Like when I was driving to and from graduate school and some, no way. I ever paid under $20. And I mean, I wasn't in a plea bag, but I was not in, you know, the very other, the West, the adult. - Yeah. When I was-- - Super eight. - Yeah, yeah, motel sixes. I was at this, when I worked for the healthcare union when I was in Ohio, we were, where were we in West Virginia? - Somewhere in West Virginia. And they stayed at these flea bag hotels where you just couldn't take your shoes off because the carpets were so sticky. - Oh, that's just-- - And even that was over $18. - Oh my gosh. Wow. - Yeah. So anyway, yeah, that was cheapy, cheap, cheap. - And we do see how cheap it is when somebody's just able to kind of punch through the door with a little effort. - Yeah. Well, he's got those cloven hooves. - He does. - They're like little battering rams. - Have to help. - Yeah, yeah. - I knew immediately as soon as we saw the sort of vacant stare of the person knocking that all those bad guys were behind him. - Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. I was really in one of my notes here. - Yeah. - At the dinner? - Yes. - Well, I wanted to go back because you said, you were talking about faith picking food off of the other plates and stuff, but I think, I mean, she's literally stuffing her face with food. She's staying in the spley bag. She clearly has no money. And I think it's to kind of lay some groundwork so that we do have some sympathy for faith, right? That she has had a really rough go at it, right? Clearly, we find out that her watcher was massacred. She's been on the run. And so I think that's all these things are kind of being put out there so that we do develop some sympathy for faith because when she's talking, it can be really hard to just get some sympathy for faith because she's quite brash and so forth. But I did wonder during that dinner, Joyce is like, "Faith, would you like another drink?" And, "Faith, like, yes." But the glass is like three quarters of the way. - Totally full. - And it looked like it was full lemonade, and so I don't know why it was soda coming out. - I wondered if maybe it was like a frosted glass. - Maybe. - It was sort of frosted that yellow and so anyway. - Yeah, 1960s. - Yeah, exactly. - All right, that was just it. It just bugged me. - Sure, no, I agreed. - And Greek pop culture reference by Buffy, I'm the one getting single white female here. - Oh, wow. - Did you ever see that movie? - Who was in that, like, alley sheedy or something? - No, it was Bridget Fonda. - Bridget Fonda. - I don't remember. - Yeah, I sometimes mix those two up in my head. - Jennifer. - Jason Lee. - Yes. - Okay, yeah, no, some of those era people I sort of mix up, shocking, shocking when I can't tell Elizabeth Perkins and Mary Louise Parker and Sarah Jessica Parker. I can tell those two apart visually, but I screw up their names. Sarah Jessica Parker, though, is the one that I have the best that I really have. - And don't even get me started on, like, Chaz Palmentary and Raymond Watt. - There's another one there, too. - Yeah, they're just ones that I just confuse each other for all the time. - Yeah, I'm not the only one who does this, but Matt Damon and Mark Wahlberg. - Oh, yeah, everybody does that. - Have you ever heard them talking about it? - Oh, yeah. They're more gracious to when somebody mistakes them for the others so that they don't screw up their cred, and if somebody's like rude to them with their own name, I love that. I like, oh, well, I don't want this to get back to Mark Wahlberg. - Yeah, that's cool. - Okay, enough with Rebecca's confusion about an actor's names. Okay, back to Buffy. Anything else you wanna say about the dinner? - No, I'm ready to move on to the patrolling scene where they're having a pissing contest. - Yes. - What fun. - Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what I have, but I did have to laugh a little bit when the fight actually starts, and they basically are using like a Looney Tunes move where Beethah drops a trash can on the Vamp's head. - Oh, that's right. - Yeah, and why was Buffy even getting bested, right? Usually she'd be doing this by herself. - Yeah, there's only two vampires. She's complaining that Faith isn't helping her, but I'm kind of like, normally you'd be doing this yourself. And let's be honest, you oftentimes, I'm like, why don't you just stab him with the steak already? What's all with the kicky and punchy, you know? - Yeah, yeah. - She does it a lot too, but it is true. Faith was wailing on this scene. - Oh God, she was just pummeling. - Yeah, yeah. - Pummeling that vampire. And I could, I mean, I'm like, Buffy, you know, get in there, stay in my lawn, stay in my lawn. - Yeah. - Anyhow, school the next day? - Yes. - First person we see in that scene? - Oh, no. - The winking girl's friend. - The winking girl. - Not the winking girl's self, the winking girl's friend. - I gotta, I gotta get a, I gotta get a bead on this winking girl's friend. She's got long, long hair. - And she's usually got like part of it pulled back out of her face and she's, I don't know how else this is. She's got a super long blonde hair. - So did all of Cordelia's former friends graduate? Because we'd never see any of the people with all the weird names, like not Nymphomania. There were some weird names. - The only one that's gonna be mine right now is Harmony. - Yeah, now Harmony's was the most normal name, but there were some-- - I'd have to go back through my nose. - Wasn't Lucretia, but like the lacrimosa. I mean, it was just, I was like, oh, what's the name to these? These young women of Sunnydale. I mean, Cordelia's a little off the beaten path as well, but I appreciate the Shakespeare nod. - Right. Well, the only friend name I remember is Harmony. - Yeah, and she's the big one. - Yeah. - But we haven't seen her, we haven't seen how you put her hair of Harmony. - We have not. - We have not. - Yeah, she has any in the background or anything. - Yeah. - She's went on. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But-- - So Giles, I was very impressed that Giles got Kakistos out of khaki trousers. - Out of what? Oh, I think it was the kissing toast. - Oh yes, she says khaki trousers later. - I wouldn't meant to look up, does Kakistos really mean? - Yeah. - The worst of the worst in Greek. - Yeah, I did not look that up either, but that would be interesting to know. - Looking, well, of course, the Buffy thing says that, but I'm trying to find it, if I can find it off a Buffy site. - Independently. - Right. - It's a Greek to English dictionary. - Wow, there is actually a word, kakistocracy. - Oh my gosh. - Kaki-stocracy, a word we need to revive. Kaki-stocracy is a government by the least qualified, most stupid members. (laughing) - Perfect. - Oh, whoever said we got to bring that back. - That is amazing. - What was the definition again? When the least-- - Oh, wait a minute. Here we go. Seattle Times. - Oh. - 2018. - Yes. - Hello, go away. - Log in to create-- - Damn it. - Want me to log in. - I think I saw briefly where it said, "Kakistos is Greek for worse." So kakistocracy means government by the worst people. - Huh. - So yeah. - Wow. It's real. - Okay. - Well, you know, it behooves them not to be funny. - Yeah. - Two-- - Sorry, I just got-- (laughing) - If you're going to say a word means something in another language, it really should, unless you've made the language up. But if you're gonna throw out something like Greek, that's pretty easily checked. - Yeah, that's true. So anyway, why do people live in Sunnydale? - I mean, with that death rate, clearly the death rate is clear from miles around. So why would anybody choose to remain? I don't know. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Cheap real estate? I don't know. (laughing) - It could be. But yeah, I mean, that's an important scene, right? 'Cause we find out all that stuff when Buffy confronts Faith. - Yes. - She's gonna take off immediately. - Which is an instinct Buffy has had. I was just gonna say the same thing. I was just gonna say the same thing. But boy, Faith really freaks out when Kiki still shows up. - Wow. I felt I was really sensing some PTSD vibes. - Oh yeah. Yep. - Understandably. I mean, 'cause she says, she's like, he not only killed her. So it just must have been very horrific. It must not have just been, it honestly must not have been what Angel did to calendar, right? Just like it'd done. It must have been something. - Right. I know I've got like in my head that he flayed or he like hung her up to drain or all sorts of nasty stuff when Faith says there's no word for what he did to her. - Yeah. - My mind is just gonna fill it all in, which I appreciate. Sometimes I just want my mind to fill stuff in. - Well, I must tell you that if they were herded into that particular location, then maybe they should have cased the joint for gigantic spikes. (laughing) - So you think that happened though during the fight, like, or happened when Buffy and Faith crashed through there? And hello, I went to Kiki still go running by this big broken ass window with light spilling out of it. - I think you're right, but I think it's funnier when I say that they picked a location that had a six foot long, pointy wooden stitch. - All right, sorry I didn't come into myself here. - I do believe your logic is sound. - Well. (laughing) - It was the biggest, I mean, I think we need to say it was the biggest stake that it's been used to dance. - Yeah, yeah, it went into that one guy. - Yes. - Forgiving Faith the idea that they needed a bigger stake. - Yeah. - We're gonna need a bigger stake. - Yeah, exactly. Now, there was one guy that fell to his death and was impaled on something. Now, maybe that stake was bigger. It was a big guy. I can't remember, was it the master? Was the master? - The master fell on that stake, but it wasn't as big as the one they used to kill Kikiistos. - Okay, thank you. - Then I do believe this does get the prize so far as the largest stake used for a vampire slay. - Yes, absolutely, 100%. - Big baddie, big stake. - Big daddy. - I said big baddie. - You said it's big baddie vamp. I'm not, now I said it, big daddy vamp. (laughing) - You just misheard me, but I had misheard you. - Yeah, it's a big, big daddy vamp. - Okay. - Okay. - Yeah. So, and then we're back in the library and-- - Yeah. - We learn that band is gonna be sticking around. - Yep. - Faith is joining the team. - Yep, she's gonna be a scooby and Buffy fesses up to what really happened with Angel. - Yes, that was moved, that was moving and necessary. - Yes. - And Willow's just like, what had me help with this binding spell? What's up already, Giles? I have offered my services on multiple occasions and you keep pushing me aside. Well, there is no spell. - Yeah, Giles was in daddy mode. But not big daddy mode. (laughing) - You are. - Don't you mean big baddie mode? (laughing) - Oh yeah, and then we're back at the abandoned castle lair. - Yes. - Okay. - Okay, so. - So, and I've got questions. So, Buffy is returning to the scene. And what I wrote down was can Buffy's love bring him back? And then I said, well, not this episode 'cause I thought it was fading to black, you know? And it kind of did. But then it unfaded, it faded from black, who lied again? And naked as a J bird angel arrives on the scene. So, do you think that, well, you probably know the answer, but like this love token and being there in the place where he was cast out, kind of had the power to bring him back. I mean, did Buffy, I mean, it seems coincidental if Buffy's actions didn't somehow precipitate this return. - Mm-hmm. - Okay, okay, yeah, well, more to follow, more to follow. - I don't want to ruin things for you. - Okay, okay, very cool. - No, I do. - I will say though, he does seem somehow reborn, right? He's showed up naked and a little bit slimy perhaps or else just sweaty from all the hell torture. - Yeah, that could be. - Or just the climate. (laughs) - Very hot in hell, although not according to-- - Not the day. - Yeah, not at the very center. - Yeah. - It has hot parts, it has hot parts, just not the final center circle. - Okay, all righty. I do want to, I was, I started reading this article in this book, where did I put the book, there's the book? It's called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer in Philosophy". Beer and Trembling in Sunnydale. And one of the authors has this article I started reading and so as we move throughout the rest of the season, I would like us to return to this idea at our season wrap up. - Okay. - About faith as the Nietzschean ideal. - Ooh. Now, I'm gonna need a little more context. What did you say the book's name was? - It's called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer in Philosophy". - Beer and Trembling in Sunnydale. - Okay, because I was thinking fear and Trembling sounds very familiar and it's a book by Kierkegaard. - Ah, well, I'm sure that was-- - You were saying this is Nietzsche. Nietzsche is an existentialist, I think? - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - Okay. - And so this one is in a chapter, also Sprock faith, the problem of the happy rogue vampire slayer. - Okay, this is really cute because, right, Nietzsche's book is also, thus spoke, Zarathastra, Zarathastra or whatever. - Oh, okay. - I can't pronounce it, but this guy's being quite punny with his philosophy. (laughing) - Well, I've only ever read, like, I've never read Nietzsche himself, I've only read other people's interpretations of Nietzsche, so. - Okay. - But I thought that might be a kind of interesting thing to think about. - Yeah, so what is the basic premise? What is the, what aspect of Nietzsche, are we supposed to focus on? Or is it broader than that? - Okay, so he focuses on five primary characteristics of the ideal, strength, the search for satisfaction of one's desires, a ruthlessness or cruelty in the pursuit of these desires, a distrust of rational argument, rejection of traditional morality. - Hmm. Okay, are these, are these Nietzsche, I guess I'm a little puzzled by this list. I think I need to read the chapter, read the book. - Well, when I finish reading it, I will give it to you. - Okay, fantastic. Then I'm wide open, I need, and definitely, I would say a couple of those resonated already in this episode with thing. I guess I was struggling to fit it in with my understanding of Nietzsche. I think that's where I was, but that understanding is tenuous at that start. - Well, what is our next episode? I forgot to look it up. - Oh my gosh, no idea. - Let's see. Oh, Beauty and the Beast. - Okay. - So this one is written by Marty Noxen, so coolness. Well, I have nothing else. - Okay, either, either do I. - All right, so then we just need to say goodbye. - Thanks for listening, everybody. - So anyway, I like the scene with guile. - Guiles. - You'd think I'm drinking, but I'm actually just drinking water. - Girl, you've had a full week. - Oh my God. - I blame you for nothing. You're, I'm impressed you're standing, so. (upbeat music) - Wallowing in the shallows is created and produced by the both of us, edited by Mo. The soundtrack for the Wallowing in the Shallows, Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 3 Rewatch, is Apache Rock Instrumental by Soundatellier, available on gemento.com. You can send us feedback at witstvpod@gmail.com. That's W-I-T-S-T-V-P-O-D at gmail.com. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Subscribe. - Then subscribe. - Then subscribe. - Subscribe. - Hit that subscribe button.
