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Karen Read Verdict Watch Plus Jamaal Bowman is Shown the Door | 6.26.24 - The Grace Curley Show Hour 1
Today's podcast is brought to you by Howie's new book Paperboy. To order today, go to howiecarshow.com and click on store. Live from the Aviva Trattoria Studio, it's the Grace Curly Show. We've got to bring in a new voice, a young voice, a rising voice, Grace Curly. You can read Grace's work in the Boston Herald and the spectator. Especially Grace. Stay stand up. Here's the millennial with the mic, Grace Curly. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Grace Curly Show. Welcome, welcome, welcome. It's a huge news day. Today, we've got updates on Jamal Bowman, who lost in his primary last night. Very good news to start off the show. And, of course, locally, Verdict Watch continues in the Karen Reed trial here in Massachusetts. And we will be covering this all show. We'll come back to it. We'll circle back to it. We'll keep you updated. And because of that, I wanted to let everyone know right off the bat that the lines are open today. It's 844-500-4242, again, 844-500-4242. I was very impressed with the callers yesterday. It's amazing. The difference, the different takeaways that people have when watching the same trial. So I'd love to hear from everyone out there today who has been following the case, even if you are a latecomer, and to some people, the funny thing is, I was meeting people yesterday and I realized, in some worlds, I'm a latecomer to this. There are people who have been on top of this thing years before any of us even heard about it. And I talked to a woman last night. She said, "I don't think I'm going to be able to sleep tonight. I'm so revved up about what's going to happen." So even if you are late to the game or if you're just really starting to get into it, that's the tricky part is that you either talk to people who know everything about it and they know Chloe and they know the cell phone data and they know the health data, the stairs, Brian Higgins, you're hot, they know every single thing, or you talk to people who just heard about this and they're like, "Tell me about it." And when people say, "Tell me about it to me," I really tailor. I get stressed. I'm like, "I just." You get annoyed with them like, "How have you not done your research? How have you not kept up with this?" Well, it's more like I need some sort of whiteboard. I'm like, "Do you have a piece of paper? Do you have a chair for me? Am I supposed to stand up into this?" You have fun, tax, and string. This is going to take a long time. I'm not a magician and so I just want to let you know that whatever your perspective is, however late to the game you might be, we still value your opinion and it's 844-542. I think you're hot. I think you're hot. You know what I was realizing today is that that cut of Brian Higgins reminds me of the old Jimmy Fallon, I think her name was Rachel Dratch, the old SNL sketch where they would be people from Boston, and they'd always be like, "You know what, Fenway or something? I think you're hot." No, you're hot. I got to find that. I can't believe that just dawned on me today. How did I miss that thus far? But I do-- Your cousin from Boston. But I do want to give you an update about what we saw today because there's always, it's never a dull news day when it comes to this Karen Read trial and there were some fireworks this morning inside the Dedham Courthouse, this time between Karen Read's lawyer Alan Jackson and Judge Beverly Canoni. I've noticed though that when I'm looking for this story and, you know, looking for the sound and things like that, people are focusing on the wrong part of this. People are really focused, but when I see people, I mean the media, I'm very focused on the back and forth at the end of this cut between the judge and Karen Read, where she says, "This funny misread," she kind of reprimands her for smirking or laughing. That, to me, doesn't even-- I guess I get it because it's catty and, you know, it's her putting Karen Read in her place or not liking her disposition. But I think the bigger story here is what Alan Jackson is frustrated by and I think rightfully so. Essentially-- and I'm just going to set it up a little bit before we play the cut and open the lines. Essentially, Alan Jackson is taking issue with the verdict form in this case. Now, I'm amazed that this wasn't settled yesterday because I thought the instructions went on for a pretty long time. I thought they left no stone unturned. Apparently, I was wrong. Now, the form, there is a not guilty box to check on the main charge of manslaughter, but there are no not guilty boxes for the lesser charges. And so Alan Jackson's fear is that the jurors are going to feel that since there's no not guilty option, they just have to fill out-- like, you're essentially directing them to check off guilty without giving them the option. And I think he's right because you know what it makes me think of? Sometimes when you go to the doctor's office, okay? Here's an example of, say, are you a smoker and you check off? No, and then the question beneath it will say, have you ever participated in a study about emphysema or something like that? And the only reason they have the follow-up question is for the original question. So then you get to this question, and that's a bad example, but you guys know what I'm saying. You get to this follow-up question and you go, well, that doesn't make sense. I've never-- I have a better way to describe it. Do you get what I'm saying? I get what you're saying. If you're going to have a check box for guilty or not guilty in the first question, you've got to have both check boxes for the next one. Because otherwise, people are like, wait, what are we filling out here? We already said not guilty. Oh, do we fill this out? In other words, you're filling out a question, you're going, why am I filling this out? This doesn't even apply to me. And then you realize, oh, I'm only supposed to fill out this box if I filled out the first question and the affirmative. And so that's where Alan Jackson's worried. He's like, they're going to feel like they have to fill it out because you're not giving them the other option. I don't think my smoking example was perfect, but hopefully you guys followed. All right, so let's play this cut of Alan Jackson and it's actually broken up into four bits here. We'll start with cut one. What is that? The session is easy. 2, 1, 1, 7. All right. So, why are we out here? We've got to-- Fuzz right there. Fuzz. She's got that gratitude. What is up with the attitude, judge? God, can you at least pretend to not hate being there every single day? One moment, the bailiff gets his time to shine a day. All right, that's enough. Why are we out here today? She sounds like a petulant teenager who's like, why did you wake me up? Who disturbed me from my slumber? Why are we out here today? She always sounds like you're waking her up from like the best nap of her life. Sorry. Oh, we're out here today because you're supposed to be doing your job? I didn't even really have a problem with her during this trial, but her performance today has really perturbed me. Okay. Continue. God of the-- I just saw the verdict forms, and as we discussed yesterday, the amendments court indicated it would make a-- Oh, no, no. Okay. Okay. I did not say I'd make it. I said I'd think about it. I said I was tired, and I needed to think about it. I said before you were tired, I needed-- The tired? The tired card here, again. I'm sorry that we're-- what time does-- court starts usually what, nine every day? Are these-- on the reasonable-- are these bankers' hours? It's too unreasonable for these people. Jackson should have said, "Your Honor, justice never sleeps." Justice never sleeps, even if you do. I said I was tired, and I have to think about it. Okay. Fair enough. Dooley noted. Continue. I said before you were tired, I needed to think about it because you agreed that there needs to be not guilty options for subordinate charges under count two. I said that it made sense to me, but no, I did not change it upon looking at it because the verdict slipped. This verdict slipped as submitted to the jury, is exactly how it always is in Massachusetts. It's always dumb in Massachusetts, so we're going to keep it that way. Everything's always messed up here in Massachusetts, Allen Jackson. Everything's illegal in Massachusetts. So we're just going to keep riding with this one. We're not going to mess with a good thing. Hmm. I have a lot of thoughts on this, but whenever Allen Jackson is talking to anyone, he's talking to one, whether it's the judge, whether they show him on cross-examination and then they show Lally, I find that the most telling part of all this is the difference in intelligence between Allen Jackson, Yannetty, and everybody else that they're having back and forth with in this courtroom. It's really, even with the judge, usually the judge seems to be the person who you have the most reverence for. You're kind of waiting for them. You have to treat them in a certain way. But you watch this and you're like, "He must be so frustrated with all these bozos that he has to deal with day to day." It's such an easy clarification to make, too. It's not an unreasonable request to have. But it's always been this way, Mr. Kwamea. It's always been this way. We're not going to change it for you. Your Honor, this is ridiculous. You're ridiculous, and I'm tired. I'll tell you that right now. I need an app. Did you not get your Dunkin' Donuts on the way in to-- It's 1215. It's 1215, sir. I'm very tired. Okay. Next cut, please. Please. I asked a question. I don't really care how it always is in Massachusetts, I care about whether or not it's appropriate. It's appropriate. It's appropriate. We make my argument, if you were a mind judge, why it's not appropriate. I love how much authority he has in that courtroom. And I love that he says, "I don't care how it always is." This is--now I have a good example. It took me a little while here, but now I'm revved up and ready to go. Here's my example. I used to always do this. Used to come home with a crappy grade on a math test, usually math sometimes biology. One of the sciences. And I would have to have my mom sign it or something, and I would say, "Mom, everybody in the class did so bad. It wasn't just me, everybody." Even--you know, Becca, you know how smart she is? Yeah. She almost failed it, too. My mom would say, "I don't care about how poorly everybody else did. I care about how you did." This is essentially what he's saying to her. Like, "I don't care that you guys always do things in this backwards manner and that no one's cared enough. You've never had a lawyer in here who's cared enough to bring it up, but I'm not happy with it from my client. I don't care that this is how things tend to work here in this crazy land known as the Commonwealth. I just try to do it the right way this time. That's why my client hired me and is paying so much money, because I'm going to make a point of trying to do it the right way." Good God. Continue. For a superior charge, they have to decide that she is not guilty of the superior charge, and that is the starting point of whether or not she is guilty or not guilty of any subordinate charge, often called a lesser included. Once they decide that she's not guilty of the superior charge, now there's two additional charges that they've been instructed. They must decide whether she's guilty or not guilty of them. How do they decide that she's not guilty of the first form of charge in volunteering that spot? Okay. Anything else you want to say, Mr. Jackson? She's really. The word that's coming to mind for me is Brett. She's acting like a Brett, like a spoiled princess. Somebody didn't get that extra pump of caramel swirl this morning. She's really cranky. And also, remember when you were in school and you were taking the SATs, how many times they'd go over filling in the bubble? How many times they'd go over certain things with you? Are we really supposed to believe, and I'm not insulting the jurors here, I'm not trying to insult the judge, I'm just saying, are we really supposed to believe that these jurors are going to understand that in that? I just said that I mess up on medical forms. I'm in a waiting room at a doctor's office and I'm filling out forms, I'm going, why are they asking me? Like, here's a good example. Before I had a baby and they asked you, you know, how many, do any of your kids have problems with this? And I'm filling out that part and I'm going, I don't, and then I'm writing in, I don't have any kids. And then I realized, oh, I didn't need to fill out that part because the question before it, this doesn't apply to me. These people are going to feel like they have to fill something out even though it doesn't apply. Whereas it would be a lot easier if you just included the not guilty box. Is it that people don't want to go back on their computers and write it in? Or are we, is it a lack of paper in the courthouse? Are we worried about ink? Jerry's and dead. I don't know what a computer is. Thank you, Kathy. Hokele. I appreciate that. All right. We'll be right back. Let me know what you think. Is this crazy? Does this, does this make you nervous about where this is headed eight, four, four, five hundred, forty two, forty two? And I'm done with the examples. I'm not going to try to come up with any other ones. This is a Grace Curly show. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. You're listening to the Grace Curly show. This is the Grace Curly show. I'd like an answer from the court. How? I believe it's time that she's not guilty of involuntary manslaughter on that person. That's their decision to make. And how do they make it if they don't have an option to check a box that says not guilty? They don't check the box that says guilty, do they? And then when they go to the next check, the next block, they don't check the block that says guilty. And on the top, you're left with not guilty. Okay? So it's the absence of a check mark that the court determines is the not guilty finding by the jury. Yes. That's what the verdict slip reads. It reads not guilty. If they don't check, block two, three, or four, the verdict slip reads not guilty, okay? That's how it is. Mr. Jackson. Apparently that's how it's going to be because that is not how it should be and it's over our strong rejection. He did the right thing here. That was Alan Jackson, Karen Reed's attorney because even if nothing was changed based off that interaction where I think he clearly made his points pretty well and he was able to explain to Judge Canoni why he's unhappy with that. Even if she hadn't honored any of those requests, at least he could always go back to it later on when a verdict does come as just yet another thing that wasn't on the level in this case. But Jared Diglio just told me in the green room that she has honored these changes to a degree and I'm not going to try to explain what the form is going to be because I'm sure I'll get it wrong. I'm going to tell you that Alan Jackson is happy with the results and he's happy with the changes that have been made. He's reasonably satisfied. Reasonably satisfied. Thank you. It's like a survey. You satisfied? Reasonably satisfied. How likely are you to recommend our services? How likely are you to give Judge Canoni five stars? You know what Taylor? We got to give credit. We're credit is due. We're a little harsh on her in the opening but she came to her senses. She lent herself to that. That was an unreasonable reaction to a very reasonable request. She's very like annoyed. It just sounds like she's annoyed to be there which it's been a long try. You're already there. You're just sitting there waiting for the jury to come back with something, a question, a verdict, anything. So like why why belittle the guy for trying to make this a smoother process? And also I understand that I'm not a legal beagle. I think you understand that as well at this point. I have to imagine if you're a judge, yes, it's gone on for nine weeks. We are now in the ninth week of this trial, but it's it's flown by as far as I can tell. It doesn't feel like nine weeks. I've seen I've seen cases that feel like, wow, that's nine weeks. That really was boring. There were parts of this that were boring. I think when they got into the cell phone data, you know, there were definitely parts of this. There were a little bit slow, but compared to a normal trial Taylor, which is like watching paint dry. I would say this was pretty quick. My wife asked me last night. She says, why why is it the prosecution took three months to make their case and the defense only took two days? And then her follow up question was, doesn't that reflect poorly on the defense that they only defended her for two days? I said, no, no, they were defending her throughout the entire time. They tore up these witnesses, something fears. Well, I think that to your wife's point, Mrs. Cormier, and I hope you're out there listening, typically that would be true, but because the defense was able, well, more so because the prosecution was really playing defense the whole time, like they were bringing up witnesses based off the third party culprit defense. So really everything was lending itself to making Karen read look less guilty as the trial went on. Eight, four, four, five hundred, forty two, forty two. Today's poll question is brought to you by Perfect Smiles. Don't be fooled by imposters with similar names. If you're unhappy with your smile, you need to visit Dr. Bruce Houghton in Nashua. Call one eight four for a perfect smile or visit perfectsmiles.com. Taylor, what is the poll question and what are the results thus far? Our polarizing poll question of the day at gracecurlyshow.com is who was the least likable character in the Karen read trial? Judge Beverly Canoni, ADA Adam Lally, Brian Higgins, Jennifer McCabe, Trooper Michael Proctor, Trooper Joseph Paul, Trooper Yuri Buchanan, Trooper Nicholas Garino or other. I'm going to vote, but then I'm going to ask you questions when we come back because I have a couple questions about how we're judging these people. Oh, quick. Come on. Grace. I need an answer. I'm tired. I'm going to vote Jen McCabe 31% say Jen McCabe 37% say Michael Proctor. Yeah, that's where I'm deciding between. That's why I'm not sure. We'll be right back. Live from the Aviva Trattria studio. Excuse me, Mr. Jackson, Mr. Cormier, I have a question about the poll question. Yes, your honor. That's my Judge Canoni impression. But I do have a question. All right. So we're asking you who the most unlikable or the least likable, is that how we phrase it? The least likable. That makes more sense. The least likable character in this trial. And we've got a lot of options. We didn't include everybody because lucky Lockering, for example, the poll, the plow driver, he's not going to pull in a lot of votes. So we really tried to whittle it down to the people that were notably horrible. But my question, and now you're the judge in this case, Taylor. I'm an honest and truthful person. Are we going based off of literature, like things they've written, or are we just going based off their performance on the stand? Because zoomed out 30,000 feet, I say Michael Proctor, any man who's calling a woman the C word and talking about her balloon knot was going to win this poll. He also read that on the stand. So yeah. But I didn't find his disposition to be as aggressive. He didn't match up with his text. The most aggressive disposition was who's the least likable character. Yeah. It's hard for me because I found anything that's been presented on their behalf in this case is what you can consider. Oh, after all, 508 says, after all that about the judge and Jackson, you didn't bring up the judge yelling at Karen Reed for laughing. I should play that. Thank you, 508. You called us out and you've won this battle. All right. So this is Jackson and Auntie Bev. And then at the end, Judge Canoni does say to misread, "Is this funny? What do you think of a clown? Is this funny to you? This is cut forth." They need to see that there is a not guilty option for the subordinate charges. If they come back guilty on, for instance, involuntary manslaughter, that's immediately appealable. They didn't have an option on the verdict form to find her not guilty. It's almost like the court is directing the verdict of the subordinate charges. Okay. I disagree with you. Ms. T. and Eddie, you've seen verdict slips exactly like this. Okay. I actually got it. Have you had no lesser includeds? I did not see the verdicts like there were not guilty, not an option for the attorney. Okay. I disagree with you. All right. Excuse me. This is funny, Ms. Reed. All right. We're done. To be fair, she sounded like she thought it was a little funny at one point during the exchange, didn't she? When she was asking you, Nettie, she thought it was laughable that he had never seen the lesser charges in a form like that in Massachusetts. And then she kind of let out a chuckle. So Judge Kanoney is allowed to laugh at this, but Karen Reed is not again. Everyone is happy at the hillside. Again, we see the two tiered system of justice upon us. I just wanted to bring something up because one of the textures here, and I'm going to pull a card out of Adam Lally's deck here and I'm going to quote John Adams because John Adams has been invoked in this trial before. And I think he's rolling over in his grave. I don't think he, he never asked to be a part of this narrative. He never asked Adam Lally to bring him up. And yet his name is being bandied about by these people. But one of the textures said, and this is 617, do you think the jury members have any idea of how bad slash dumb they will look if they don't acquit Karen Reed? They will get throttled by public opinion if they get this wrong, especially with the feds closing in. Now, John Adams once wrote, representative government and trial by jury are the heart and lungs of liberty. And I really just wanted to quote John Adams because Adam Lally had done it. So that's not exactly relevant to what I'm about to say. But to respond to that 617, I hope they're not aware of that. I don't like this idea that jurors are making any decisions based off how they think the public's going to react to it. And I thought the same thing in the New York City Hush Money trial, obviously I was not happy with that verdict, but you have, you keep that in mind that these people, if they're following the rules, if they're following all of the guidelines and there are many to be a juror in a case like this, then they should have no idea how the public feels. They should have no idea, like I keep track of, you know, I think there's 60 40 right now in the YouTube's in support of Karen Reed versus not in support of Karen Reed. That's me. I'm a radio host. I'm not a juror on this case. I'm not deciding this woman's fate. So, while I see your point about how, if they're really detached from how the public feels about this, then, and they decide that she actually, they're going to give her a guilty verdict, then yeah, they're going to be flabbergasted at how everyone or most people watching this case think they made the wrong decision, but that's not how jurors are supposed to come to their decision. They're not supposed to make decisions based off, is everyone going to be mad at us when we get out of here? Yeah, I think their decision should be not guilty, but not because they want to be on the side of most people in Massachusetts or really across the country who are watching this. David, you're up next on The Grace Curly Show. Go ahead, David. Hey, Grace. I'm tired of working in this 90 degree weather and paying taxes for judges that are going to retire with a full pension. Maybe she can go down to Mexico or Moira Haley on a nice vacation and check out the border. Well, I think Moira Haley prefers to vacation in Italy last time I checked. I don't think she's very interested in going down to the border, but I understand why you're tired, David. I'm tired, too, and so whose judge, Kannoni, I did want to bring up and we'll keep taking calls on this. We'll keep getting your POV. The number is 844-542-42, but I did want to talk really quickly, if I could, about something that happened in New York last night, that I think is great news that I think we can all feel like maybe there's hope yet, Jamal Bowman, who's a member of the squad, most of us know Jamal Bowman for his fire alarm antics. Remember when he was trying to have his own insurrection in Congress, he was trying to block a vote from happening, and so he pulled a fire alarm and then to cover himself and to make himself the victim, he said, oh, I just thought that that's how you open the door. I thought that was the way to open the door in the big handle that says fire on it. That's what he thought was used to open a door. Keep in mind this guy used to be, I think, a middle school principal, which is frightening. And last night, he lost his primary to George Latimer, who's this businessman, Democrat. He was endorsed by Hillary Clinton. On the scale of progressives right now, George Latimer is like a normal Democrat. Take that with a grain of salt, but compared to Jamal Bowman, he is the most sane person in New York. And so Jamal Bowman loses this race last night. I'm thrilled by this because Jamal Bowman is an anti-Semite, and he didn't deserve to win his primary in New York. He has done nothing for the people he represents. Crime has skyrocketed in the districts he represents. He is a clown. He is a clown. He's a media whore, and he's an egomaniac, and he's on top of all of that. If that weren't bad enough, he's not very bright. And so Jamal Bowman gave his concession speech last night. He was very angry about this. Can I have the cut, the manic cut where he starts yelling, and he gets very upset? I think it's cut 15. So I'm speaking way longer than I expected, but I want to say a couple more things. Number one, it's coming, why are you messing up? Why are you messing up? Damn, I'm in the zone up here. Before I get to that, yeah, this is the same guy who he couldn't sign on to a resolution condemning October 7th because in that resolution, it said the attacks were unprovoked. You know the attacks that Hamas waged on innocent people, just having breakfast in the morning, and they came in and they killed their kids or they chopped their heads off or they raped the women and dragged them around the kibbutzes? Jamal Bowman didn't think that was unprovoked. That's all you need to know about Jamal Bowman. But it's so refreshing when voters in a state like New York, which I'm convinced that there's like short of being Jamal Bowman, you are not going to lose a race, especially if you're an incumbent, especially if you're a radical progressive, but he was abhorrent enough where even the voters in New York said, we can't take this guy anymore. He can spend his time making TikToks about Ron DeSantis and ban books and fire alarms. I did love, I think it was Ben Shapiro said, someone's got to show him the door and actually show it to him. Otherwise he'll pull a fire alarm. Good riddance, Jamal Bowman. We will not miss you. 844-542-42. Okay. So I want your thoughts on this Karen Reid verdict watch. What are you thinking? If it goes on, for example, all day today, if we end today without a verdict, are you going to be nervous about that? Are you going to feel like that's not a good sign as far as Karen Reid being acquitted in this case? And a follow up question for my listeners, actually, you know, it's a two-parter because yesterday I, I gleaned a lot from asking people about what piece of evidence stuck out to them. So that question is still on the table for you if you're listening. And the second question would be, do you have hope, maybe you give it to us on a scale of one to 10, that when this thing wraps up, whether it's today, whether it's tomorrow, whether it's next week, when this thing wraps up, we will eventually figure out what happened to a degree. Like, do you think the feds? Some people think the feds already know exactly what happened. Some people think that when this trial ends, you know, a lot of these places are going to have to clean house, including the state troopers, they're going to have to fire Michael Proctor. There's going to be repercussions. Where do you fall on that scale of having faith that we will have answers and that people will be held accountable? And I'll ask it to you first, Taylor. Where do you fall on the scale? I'm, I'm kind of on the optimistic side. Yeah. Shocking. I'm sorry. What? I'm sorry. You're going to have to give me a minute here. I am taking a back by that Taylor Cormier on the optimistic side. Yeah. I think that the feds probably have a lot and they have. There are a lot of people in this case that have a lot to lose. And I think most of all Brian Higgins, he's got this federal position that we've been kicked down the totem pole in the past for his behavior, shall we say. He still has a lot of skin of the game as far as, I'd imagine, a pension somewhere along the line. Just his reputation, he's probably not close to retirement yet, but there's a lot to think about. He's a single guy with no prospects. He's like George Costanza. He's got nothing. I don't have a job. He's got nothing but his money. Chris Kramer, say Kramer says, "You have no prospects," and he goes, "I like to read the daily news." That's what George says. He likes to read the daily news. You have no reason to get up in the morning. I like to get the daily news. Yeah. But you think Brian Higgins, like this is, he is ripe for the feds to come in there and turn him. Exactly. And also, Taylor, don't you find that sometimes with these big high profile cases that once there is a verdict, whatever way it goes, that right afterwards, things do start coming out. They start leaking. People start getting a little bit more chatty. Like everyone can keep it on the lockdown for a while, but then once this week or next week goes by, then people get a little loose-lipped. I've covered cases in my former life as a reporter where people have kept their mouth shut for years. There's actually a book about this case in Dartmouth, Massachusetts, where this -- not a resident. While he was a South Coast resident, he was down in Pennsylvania. He got ties to the mob, how he knows where this guy was. He shot and killed a cop, I believe, the chief of police in that town. Nobody knew who did it. This guy was on the FBI's most wanted list for like 30, 40 years and nobody knew where he was. Turns out he was living in his house, but they had the secret hideaway inside the house, like in a closet. And his wife kept her mouth shut for years, never let on that he was there. When they discovered -- True love story. When they discovered, they got information that he had passed away and he was buried in her backyard. And she had kept her mouth shut for all those years. And when they finally got to her and said, "We know he's gone, there's nobody alive from this case left," you got to tell us what happened. She got a pass because she gave up the position of the body. Oh, yeah. There's all sorts of incentives, even as people get older, even as things start to come out. 844-542-42. We'll be right back, we'll take your calls on this. What are your thoughts? Give us your perspective. People are lining up now. We will be right back. Hi, it's Toby from Cape Gun Works. I'm taking all your firearm and self-defense questions every Tuesday. Join Grace and me for 2/8 Tuesday, Tuesdays at 2 p.m. This is the Grace Curly Show. I have copies for Council, if you'd like. Yes. All right, so with that, we'll be in recess and you'll remember that the jurors were instructed that we won't take any questions of verdict during 1 o'clock to 2 o'clock. All right, so we will not have anything until at least 2 o'clock, probably not even then, but I just want to keep everyone posted. 617 says, "My sister just told me she's amending the verdict form. She being Judge Canoni. She doesn't want a guilty verdict to be overturned due to Judge's error." Yeah, we did mention that, that she's amending it and Jackson said he's reasonably satisfied with the amendment. I also want to point out that our poll question is, "Who is the least likable in this trial?" And 508 said, "Who is the most likable, lucky or the ceiling fan?" That ceiling fan turns slowly but grinds exceedingly fine. Michael, you're up next on the Grace Curly Show. What's going on, Michael? Hi Grace, first time, long time. Thank you, sir. And while there's a whole litany of defining moments in this trial, I think the videotape of the waterfall at approximately 1157 tells it all. You could see an angry slash belligerent, Mr. Higgins, motioning to John in the bar. And just seeing that, not hearing any audio, it was chilling to me. And to me, that tells the story of who one of the probable assailants were. Yeah, and Michael, I'm glad you brought this up because that was another piece of evidence that I think the jurors up until that point could have made their own assumptions about, but I don't think it was really pieced together in a coherent way until the closing arguments when Alan Jackson was able to kind of thread this needle and explain to people that, "Listen, Brian Higgins had these flirty text messages with Karen Reed. It's very possible that he was part of a confrontation with John O'Keefe at 34th Airview as he was there after the bars." And to your point, that video where he's kind of play fighting, Brian Higgins is play fighting with Brian Albert, that does add another layer to it. It's interesting that that's your most defining piece of evidence, though, Michael, because for me, that wouldn't even fall on my top five, but I appreciate it. And I'm actually, now that you've said it, I'm going to look back at that video, the 1157 mark. This wasn't the grab-assing portion of the video. It was as they were leaving, Brian Higgins was kind of goading John O'Keefe to step outside. Let's go. And he had to be held back by Brian Albert, which I missed. I did not see that when it was live, when they played it in court, but I did see a clip of it. Yeah. Wow. Okay. 844-542-42. Listen up. To everybody on the lines, we're going to continue to take your calls as the day goes on. I will tell you this, though, Turtle Boy is joining the show at 105. I want to get his take on the fireworks this morning between the judge, Alan Jackson, and then later on in that cut, Karen Reed. I want to find out more about what's happening with these jurors. There was more noise about that earlier in the day, and he was tweeting about it. And also, we're just going to talk about the case in general. If you have any questions for Turtle Boy, it's 617-213-1066. Start the text with the word curly. Maybe we'll also give him our poll question and see what he thinks. It's going to be hard for him to decide. I don't think he finds anybody very likable in the Karen Reed trial. We'll be right back with Aiden Carney, AKA Turtle Boy. And then after that, we'll continue to take your calls. Don't go anywhere. Verdict Watch continues. (upbeat music) You