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Breaking Down Jackson's Closing Argument in the Karen Read Trial | 6.25.24 - The Grace Curley Show Hour 1
Today's podcast is brought to you by Howie's new book Paperboy. To order today, go to howiecarshow.com and click on "Store." [MUSIC PLAYING] Live from the Aviva Trattaria Studio, it's "The Grace Curly Show." We've got to bring in a new voice, a young voice, a rising voice, Grace Curly. You can read Grace's work in the Boston Herald and the spectator. Especially Grace, stay stand up. Here's the millennial with the mic, Grace Curly. Hello, hello, hello, everyone. And welcome back to "The Grace Curly Show." Thank you for tuning in. I'm sure some people have us up on a double screen. They've got the Karen Retrial going on, the closing arguments, and they've got "The Grace Curly Show." And that's a good combo. We've got the closing arguments wrapping up now. Lally is in the middle of his presentation. And attorney Alan Jackson went first. And that's what I want to start with. I want to talk a little bit about Alan Jackson's closing arguments. We can play the cuts throughout this first hour. We're going to take your calls. This is a show that is based out of Boston. We are a New England show through and through. And there is no question that this story is one that we're not going to come across any time soon. This is-- dare I say a once in a lifetime, all of the elements of this story. And I really thought that Alan Jackson was incredibly effective. I don't think that's surprising to anyone. There's a reason why this guy gets paid the big bucks. There's a reason why he's the flashy big shot lawyer. And it's because he's good at what he does. And what I think is really important about the closing arguments, because on one hand, you think, well, what else are they going to tell us? We know everything at this point. Let's just get on with it. We're in the ninth week of this thing. But with closing arguments, a lawyer is able to add in a narrative. And for the most part, there will not be objections. The momentum is on your side. You're able to put together a cohesive narrative as to what you think happened, and kind of leave the jurors with that. Now, technically speaking, could there be an objection? Yes. But most lawyers know you don't object someone when they're giving their closing arguments. It doesn't sit well with the jurors. They don't really receive that well. And so you are able to editorialize a little bit to put your own narrative on it. And I think in this case, it's very important, because we've had so many weird bits of evidence come through this case. And when it first started, the one that stood out to me the most and the one that Turtle Boy had t-shirts up and people were really obsessed with is the huff long to die in cold Google search. And I thought that was the closest thing to a smoking gun. But I'll be honest with people. I wasn't as well versed in this case when it started. I would have Turtle Boy on every once in a while. I would go through some of the main players. I had no idea how much stuff Alan Jackson and Yannetti had to work through, how much evidence raised eyebrows, how many conflicts of interest and text messages and weird information was going to come out. And now when I look at this case from a distance, I don't know if the house long to die in cold. It's still a huge question mark. It's still something that for me moves the needle. But it's not-- it might not even be my top piece of evidence that really makes me question what happened. There are actually so many other things, including the destruction of the cell phone, the dog. Everybody has different things about the Caron-Ree trial that stick with them. But what Alan Jackson was able to do over the course of that hour this morning was he was able to refresh the jurors memory and tie them all together and really create a believable story as to how this may have went down. And that is something that we've talked about, Taylor. Like how absurd it is that all of these people would be involved in a giant cover-up. And I think when you take each thing-- and what I mean by that is when you take the magical taillight on its own, when you take the butt dialing and then the butt dial answering, when you take Brian Higgins going to the Canton PD after leaving 34 Fairview, when you take Jennifer McCabe's Google search at 2.27 AM, when you take the fact that Lucky Lockrin's account would have never been brought to light if it were for Michael Proctor, if other people didn't do the digging, the phone information about John O'Keefe descending stairs, when you look at all of that on its own, one by one, you still leave at the end of the day thinking, but could it really be that all of this was a conspiracy, a frame job? But here in Alan Jackson, weave it together piece by piece and having the ability to seep into that a little bit of an opinion about why this went down really, for me, made me sit there and go, yeah, that's probably exactly what happened. That makes a lot of sense. And there was something that I thought was very important about Alan Jackson's closing argument. And that was that ironically, the only time it drew out these past nine weeks that I thought, ooh, maybe it's shifting in a bad way for Karen Reed. And now looking back, I mean, that was really nothing to be worried about for her. But the only time that I was hesitant and I thought, maybe I don't understand this as well as I think I did, was when the text messages came out between Brian Higgins and Karen Reed. These flirty text messages, very embarrassing, like elementary school, I like UD, like me, just cringy. And I thought, this doesn't look good for her. But ironically, the flirty messages that were meant to dust up Karen Reed, that the Commonwealth brought forward and really thought they were going to, you know, assassinate her character, embarrass her on the stand, or I'm sorry, not on the stand, but embarrass her in the courtroom and ruin her credibility. Ironically enough, those lend themselves to the story that Alan Jackson was putting together today. And the reason I bring it up right now is because Taylor, the day we got those text messages, we were all a flurry in the office. We're all going back and forth. Did you see this one? We didn't understand that when we finally got to the Michael Proctor text messages, that these text messages were going to be like a big nothing burger. So at the time, we're all running in back and forth. One of the lines, do you think I'm hot? Which Brian Higgins had to read, that's kind of become an inside joke in the office. One of our coworkers likes to say it all the time. You think I'm hot? - You are hot. This is what it says. - Oh yeah, you are hot. - You are hot. But Taylor, I remember that day. I was in the green one with you and you said, you said, isn't it possible that Brian Higgins was in the house and John O'Keefe shows up and they have a confrontation because of those text messages. Like all of these text messages that were being shown, all of this relationship or budding, you know, beginning of a relationship, couldn't that be the impetus for two guys to come to blows in a house and then this whole thing to unravel? Two drunk guys, a girl text messages proof. Some guys saying, hey, your girl's texting me. It's like, what of it? Well, what are you gonna do? You get a defender on or what? They wouldn't have said it so eloquently but something went down. I think that's how it went. - And now Taylor after, and of course, when you told me that at the time, I thought, yeah, that's actually pretty good. That's pretty probable. But the problem is when Alan Jackson is examining witnesses, you can't put that stuff in without it being objected to. You can't add in that little bit of storyline, which would make sense. But today he can and today he did and he said just that. You know, he really did imply that perhaps Brian Higgins and John O'Keefe, maybe John O'Keefe showed up the night and had an extra grind. Maybe he did find out that Karen Reed and Brian Higgins were texting back and forth. Maybe he did walk in the house. Maybe something did go wrong. Let's take a listen. And oddly, Higgins, who doesn't know John all that well, seems to want to come to John to 34th Fairview. I'll draw your attention to the waterfall tape. If you want to take another look at it, it's the 1157 mark. 1187 and 158. Take a look at that tape. He's just about to leave. Higgins is just about to leave. He points over at John, emotions for him. Come on, come on, come with me. And then at 1220, he texts him, you coming here. This is a person he doesn't really know and didn't really talk to that entire night. Ask yourself, why was Higgins so insistent that John go to 34th Fairview that night? And then there's that sparring and fighting that he and Brian Albert were engaged in. Of all the things they could be doing, this is what they were doing just minutes before John O'Keefe walked into that house at 34th Fairview. How long would it take for Brian Higgins to say to John, "You know, your girl's been texting me." A push, a punch, a fall, pull Chloe off his arm, and now it's done. What was that? Five seconds, 10, doesn't take long at all. And then the panic sets in. Wasn't intended to go that far, but what's done is done. Yeah, and not only Taylor and Kudos to you for kind of hitting on that very early on, but it shows you the importance of these closing arguments 'cause the defense had so much information, whether it be the problems with the cell phone data that the Commonwealth was bringing forward, whether it be the fact that they rehomed the German Shepherd after having it for seven years. There was a lot of information here that was bizarre, but today was important because there was a common thread through the whole thing. You were able to follow it. You were able to understand how this may have gone down. And, you know, he's got a great tempo. Like I said, you understand why he makes a ton of money. I love some of the lines he was able to drop. That's how you frame someone. And the funny thing about these kind of trials is it's not a movie, you know? We have people who are very into this and they'll ask us, "Why aren't you taking this? "Why aren't you taking that?" Well, because most of the time when you're watching a trial, there's a lot of pauses. Everybody knows now, Judge Kanon. What does she do? She goes, "I'm gonna ask you if I was side by Mr. Jackson. "We're gonna do a side by." And that will take up 15 minutes. And then what does YouTube have? It has the fan circulating. So most of the time, the courtrooms are not like a movie. It's not my cousin, many. But in the closing arguments, you can make it more like a movie. And that's exactly what Alan Jackson did. He set up an entire story that people could follow. Now, I want to juxtapose that with what Lally did. Because when Lally came in, I thought at least, he started as if he was in the middle of his closing argument. He started with, and this is why I knew it was gonna be bad for Lally. He starts with the fact that Karen Reed supposedly said, "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him." And it's just a reminder to the jurors, not that they need it, that this is in his mind the strongest piece of evidence. You start with your strongest stuff in a courtroom. Start with your strongest witnesses. You start your closing arguments with what you think is money. And the fact that what he thinks is a compelling piece of evidence is essentially hearsay. - Which by the way, does follow the plot perfectly to my cousin Vinny, because that whole movie hinged upon the cousin saying I shot the clerk, where he was actually asking the question, I shot the clerk, here it is. - At what point did you shoot the clerk? - I shot the clerk. - Yes, when did you shoot him? - I shot the clerk. - I asked him if he did it. And he said, I shot the clerk. I asked him again. And again, he said, I shot the clerk. - Yeah, and what's so crazy about it is when Lally's explaining how Karen Reed was asking, "Maybe I hit him, maybe I hit him." And then by the time she gets there, she's, oh, supposedly, again, this is all hearsay. And a lot of it's from people like Jenn McCabe and first responders who changed their story number of times. But then she also comes to the conclusion, "I hit him, it's my fault." So you almost, the way Lally's describing it, you can see the arc of how she came to that conclusion. You can see how she started off confused, and then eventually she just kind of succumbs to, I guess this is what I did. But everything that Lally is bringing forward, he played the voicemails, which again, only reiterate that this is not a woman who hit or at least knew she hit John O'Keefe, which is what the Commonwealth is trying to prove. And so I thought it was a really great performance by Alan Jackson. I'm curious what other people think. Maybe I'm just too biased in this, maybe I've just been following it too long. If you disagree, call in, it's 844, 542, 42. I mean, he must've felt like when he was watching Alan Jackson, Lally must've felt like when you're at a wedding and you have to give a speech and somebody gets up before you and they just kill and everyone's laughing and you're just sitting there going, "Oh man, this is not good, I should've gone first." - Always write two speeches, a funny and a sentiment. - Yeah, I can't compete with this. What are they bringing a stand in? What is the best man, a stand-up comedian? What is this? - Yeah, so we're gonna talk to Turtle Boy in the one o'clock. We're gonna talk to Mark Bettero, hopefully, 844, 542, 42, because we're also gonna talk to you. We'll be right back. - You're listening to "The Grace Curly Show." - This is "The Grace Curly Show." - Chloe was the Albert family pet. Not only did she appear to be gone from the house that morning on January 29th, nobody saw her there. Even Jim McAvitt admitted, that didn't see her there. But they actually got rid of the dog altogether. Within months of this incident, the dog was gone out of the house, re-home, never to be seen again. This was a dog they had had for seven years. - Yeah, I've heard of people re-homing dogs. Like you get a dog for maybe a year or two. Maybe you have a baby and the dog's too aggressive or maybe the dog bites somebody and it's just not gonna work. But seven years is a long time to have a dog and then decide this isn't gonna work for us anymore. You've gotta go to the farm or you've gotta go away. You've gotta find a new home. That is strange. And to have one strange thing, okay. But this case is like 1,000 strange. It's one strange thing after another. We have the lines open if you wanna call in, it's 844, 542. And like I said, everyone has different takeaways. Everyone's watching the same thing, but they're coming to different conclusions or certain things are sticking out to them. And something that stuck out to me today, well, I was watching this, is that Brian Albert and Jen McCabe were behind Alan Jackson and you could see them in that panel. And I thought that was a terrible, and also Colin Albert was next to his mom. I thought that was a terrible idea because at least from where I'm watching it, I'm watching it on the YouTube Live, Brian Albert is towards the right. He's just in it. If Jackson is Billy Bulger, Brian Albert is howie. Yes, he's just in the frame. And when I tell you that if you brought in a body language expert, I think that every single physical move he made back there was indicative of someone who was nervous and had something to hide. I wouldn't be surprised. I think that's what a body, and I'm not a body language expert in case anyone doesn't know that. But it's the kind of stuff that everybody knows, like touching your face, shifting your eyes. He looked so uncomfortable. I'm like, who told him this was a good day to sit right behind Alan Jackson? He looked like he was sweating, just listening to it. 844-542-42. Today's poll question is brought to you by Calitran. Do what Jared did, lose weight in a healthy way with Calitran's high quality collagen protein, specially formulated with digestive enzymes to help your body absorb the collagen protein to its fullest potential. Save 50% on a 30 day supply at gracecurleyshow.com and click store. Taylor, what is the poll question and what are the results thus far? Today's poll question, which you can vote in at gracecurleyshow.com, is what will be the verdict in the Karen Reid trial? Guilty, not guilty, or hung jury? Not guilty. 88% say not guilty, 9% say hung jury, 3% say guilty. Yeah, we'll talk more about it. And the other part was Jen McCabe's there. And I noticed before the closing argument started that she was staring Karen Reid down. Dilated pupils, Jen McCabe. Yeah, she's staring at her, like clearly trying to intimidate her or something. I think those days are over. I don't think, I don't think Karen Reid is going to get intimidated by Jen McCabe staring at her. If anything, it's the other way around. I'm pretty sure Karen Reid is feeling really confident and seeing Alan Jackson and then Alan Jackson and then Lally get up, it's like watching an Oscar winning movie and then seeing community theater. And that's actually not fair to community theater, but it just feels like they're in two different universes. We'll take your calls on this when we come back. What did you make of the closing arguments? 844-542. Live from the Aviva Trathria studio. Welcome back everyone to The Grace Curly Show. You know what the name of the game is today. They were the closing arguments in the Karen Reid trial. The judge right now is giving the jurors their instruction and that everyone is presumed innocent. If you have any reason to believe that there's reasonable doubt here and I just, I think there's so many reasons to believe that there is plenty of scenarios in which Karen Reid wouldn't have done this or didn't do this or, you know, it's really, it really does come down to the fact that a lot of the evidence, and I'm using that word very loosely, that Lally is putting forward is based on people who have proven themselves to be liars and beyond just being liars to be complete sleaze bags. I'm curious, those bitter clingers, those 3% in our poll that say Karen Reid's still guilty, what are you holding on to? What is clenching that for you? I think the 3% are the McAlberts and whoever's, you know, in their tentacle grasp because, and we have- Happy listeners, we don't know. We have had people calling in before who were very passionate. And, you know, Taylor, I told you this on Twitter, I get roasted all the time from the anti-Karen Reid people who are like, wait 'til Jen McCabe sues you. I'm like, sues me! You think I'm our biggest problem? I didn't do anything. I'm talking about the text messages that her friends texted each other and put in group chats. What's she gonna sue me for? I think she'd have bigger fish to fry at this point. I'm not gonna be lectured by this group of people, you know? They're gonna get on their soapbox now. Now that they've sobered up, they're gonna get on their soapbox and get mad at people for having an interest in this story. Jim, you're up next on The Grace Curly Show. Go ahead, Jim. - Hey, Grace, I have to tell you, first of all, I'm calling from Ohio. I have a brother who lives on the East Coast and he let me know about your show and how he's showing. For the last about six months, I've been listening. And I absolutely love you guys. You're fantastic. - Thank you so much, Jim. I really appreciate that. - Oh, you're welcome. This is an outsider, obviously, from Ohio. I'm listening to this trial. And if that jury is in deliberation more than three minutes, I'd be shocked. I mean, based on what I'm listening to and what I've heard, it's unbelievable. I mean, and I just wanna know who's gonna be held liable for and who's gonna go face justice for this travesty? - Yeah, and Jim, you know this, if you've been listening to the show for six months, I always like to err on the positive side of things. But unfortunately, I don't think there's gonna be a lot of justice here. I like to think that Michael Proctor, the problem is he's involved in the Bryan Walsh case, which is another huge case, Jim, that maybe you've heard about. Obviously you're in Ohio, but it's been national. It's been on Fox and other places. So he's involved in other cases and they don't wanna toss those cases out. They don't want other people who deserve to be sentenced to be convicted, to get away, you know, scot free because Michael Proctor happens to be at the head of these cases. So that's a problem. But your overall point is true. I don't know how long this will take. And that's why I was hesitant to make our poll question what it is, because we might know in, you know, an hour what this verdict is. We had on Mark bettero yesterday and he said it's just gonna depend on whether or not the jurors wanna take a lunch or not. But Jim, I did wanna ask you, out of all the things that you've heard about this case, which piece of evidence or which part of the story, which chapter of this story stood out the most to you? Which part made you go? Now that's hard for me to explain away. - The entire, you know, basically if I were there and I obviously wasn't there doing the autopsy, but the, you know, the body, you know, the bite marks, you know, that are somehow created by the taillight and then the multiple taillight pieces. And again, I've kind of listened on and off here and there, but I'm like, wait a minute, they went back to this crime scene how many times and what was the snow and how many pieces did they pick up? But again, no bruising. The three expert witnesses at the end yesterday, who were not called by the defense, correct? No, so the defense called the three expert witnesses, but two, they weren't hired by the defense. Two of them were actually brought in by the feds. They can't say that during the case. They have to say an outside agency, but the two guys from ARCA were brought in by the feds to, you know, reconstruct the scene. - Okay, I appreciate that. Thank you for that clarification. But again, those, I mean, you compare them to whoever it was, Paul, who was the guy? - Trooper Joseph, Paul. - The idiot, yeah. Yeah, compare those two and you're like, again, as a jury member, if I were sitting there and I'm a fairly educated adult male, I'm like, you sit there and just say, come on, give me a break, this is ridiculous. But to your point or to your question, it was the taillight and the bruising and the body and the who's long, good guy and the soul, you know, all those things together. Just, this guy got beat up in the house and thrown out the snow, that's what happened. - Yeah, and Jim, the other part of it that really struck me about this case, and Alan Jackson hit on this today, is that most of the Commonwealth's case was not about setting up a scenario where people could understand that Karen Reid did this and showing you evidence of how Karen Reid did this. Most of their case was playing defense, was trying to explain away all of these things that the McAlberts and all of their connections did throughout the course of the last few years. And that, for me, was very telling that, you know, there's a third party culprit defense, the judge allows it, you know, in part, she said, they didn't want, she didn't want them to open with it, they did anyway, and that third party culprit defense took over this thing, you know? And the way that Mark Betero described it yesterday is they took the bait, like they ended up trying to prove or disprove all of these theories surrounding Jennifer McCabe, surrounding Brian Albert, surrounding Brian Higgins, and by trying to do that, they made it so clear that their case was based on such thin gruel. Karen Reid wasn't even mentioned that often. And when she was, it was because, you know, she's not a nice person, or she left angry voicemails, or, you know, she's not the best girlfriend. And that could be very well true. And I have no doubt that none of these people are pillars of their community. But that doesn't mean she murdered somebody. I wanna play another cut. And Jim, by the way, thank you for calling in. We love having listeners, especially in Ohio. We appreciate you call back. I wanted to play a couple of sound cuts that stuck out to me. One of them was about the butt dials because this is something I didn't think of. And again, I've been trying to keep up with this and then also read other stories. So I definitely missed some things along the way. But this idea that Jen McCabe's butt dials were something a little bit more nefarious. There was a purpose to those. Can I have cut 11? And to add to that deceit, she was also blatantly lying about the calls to John's phone. You remember that call week back and forth. She said that every single one of those calls to John's phone during that time was a butt dial. How are those lies connected? And why are they connected? Jen from McCabe knows. Was she butt dialing John over and over? Or was someone looking for John's phone that went missing? - Yeah, and after today, I can really envision a scenario where something went wrong. There was a fight. John O'Keefe was injured and these people panicked. And I don't know who the culprit was in this house. I don't know who the person was. I don't know if it was Colin Albert with the Bloody Knuckles. I don't know if it was Brian Higgins 'cause of the flirty text messages. But something went awry and they had to figure out how to pin this. And then I think kind of with the Karen Reid thing, Taylor, I don't know how thought out it was. But I think it kind of fell into their laps. Like, oh, this is something that now we can pin this. As Alan Jackson said, you can pin it on the girl. That to me is not out of bounds anymore. As many people as were in that house at that time, it is wild to me that all of them, whether they verbally or by their actions, agreed that this was going to stay in the house, that this was going to stay in the circle of trust that they had. Not one of them ran out and said, no, I'm telling everybody, I'm telling the cops, I'm telling somebody what actually happened. They all were in this together and they did not deviate the best to their abilities from their story. - And that is another part of this that I thought Alan Jackson did a good job highlighting today, which is this idea that Karen Reid is the outsider. These people, it's a very incestuous group. It's a very powerful group as goofy as they seem now. Because once you start exposing people's skeletons and you realize how despicable they are, it's easy to look at it as like their caricatures of themselves. But at the time when this was all going down, these are powerful people. They are in positions of authority. They've been in Canton forever. They're like the Canton Kennedys and she's not. And so you're always going to put the baggage on the person who's not in your, as Taylor put it, the circle of trust. So she was the easy option. Like, okay, we'll just blame her. And again, I'm just speculating here. But at the beginning of this, that was crazy to me. And I go back to a turtle boy set because here we go. We just mentioned Jim mentioned the house long design called. He mentioned the tail it. How about-- and I already mentioned the dog. But there are so many things that when you really sit around for a minute and chew on it, you can't understand. And one of those things is you've got a dead body in the front lawn. You're a cop and you don't come outside. You don't come outside. You don't talk to police officers. You stay inside your house. Like, that's enough for me to go-- you're not telling us the whole story. I don't know what the whole story is. We're not getting nearly enough of it because there's no reasonable explanation for that. I stayed inside because what I was hung over. You have cops all over your front lawn. And the other part, too, because every single witness had like six things that they said that were bizarre. How about Brian Higgins driving back to Canton PD after leaving 34 Fairview? And he explained it like, oh, you know, I was plowing. Or, oh, I was moving cars around. Oh, they didn't want me to-- that's weird. That's weird that late at night after all of your-- what was it, Jameson and Ginger's? Or as how he says, Jameson, Ginger. You drive to Canton PD? Take a listen of this cut from Alan Jackson, cut 15. Very, very odd things start happening at the Albert household, very odd indeed. What do we know? We know through the testimony and key swipes that Brian Higgins, very oddly, goes directly to Canton Police Department. Why would he do that? After a night of drinking and partying, why go to CPD when you're drunk? What was so important there? He couldn't even get his own story straight. First, he said it was administrative work, then he said he was moving cars, then he said it was a factor of both. Is it both, was it neither? Or was he there to gather intel? Ask yourself, why go? Yeah, I can't explain it. I mean, that's another layer to this is the fact that they're all driving around bombed in the middle of the night. That's another illustrative part of this, how much a professional courtesy there is between police officers. This DEA agent drove drunk to the town's police headquarters. Nobody thought anything of it. And he met with a chief there, and he was just talking to him. Imagine what that guy's breath smelled like. He could knock over a sunflower with his breath. Yeah, and it's, again, it's just one of, you know, it's just one piece of a giant puzzle of what is going on at 34 Fairview. What went on that night? 844-542-42. And the other part of it too, and we'll talk about this when we come back, is Lallie's explanation for one of the reasons that the jurors are supposed to believe beyond a reasonable doubt. That Karen read as guilty is because when she came home to John O'Keefe's house after she left 34 Fairview, she didn't take her shoes off. I hate to say, but this is the last day. These are your closing arguments. This is what you're leaving the jurors with. That's all you got. That's the best you can come up with if she didn't take her shoes off. And these people are supposed to be willing to come up with a guilty verdict for that. You can have any opinion of Karen Reed, you want. But for those jurors to decide that she's guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt, you better present them with something more convincing than she didn't take her shoes off when she got into the house. And this person said that they heard her say she killed him. The same person who said it also says that she googled house long to die in cold at 6 a.m. But the Google search for 2.27 a.m. that one wasn't her. Like the amount that you have to suspend your disbelief or suspend your belief, I'm sorry. To justify all this and to come up with a guilty verdict, I agree with that last caller Jim. I think it's gonna be wrapped up probably before the end of the show. 844-542-42, we'll be right back. We'll take your calls on the other side. - Hi, it's Toby from Cape Gunworms. I'm taking all your firearm and self-defense questions every Tuesday. Join Grace and me for 2A Tuesday, Tuesday's at 2 p.m. - This is The Grace Curly Show. (upbeat music) - It shows that it took 80 steps and ascended or descended three flights of stairs at that time, and that makes perfect sense, doesn't it? It matches, walks into the house, goes directly to the basement. There's your 80 steps and your descending flights of stairs. The big problem for the commonwealth is he wasn't outside at the car ascending and descending stairs, wouldn't climb it on top of the car. So they'll tell you, wait, wait, wait, don't look at the Apple Health data, look at this other thing called ways. But Rick Green explained that if you apply the three-minute offset that is built into that monotomic time, it aligns perfectly. They don't want you to see that, they don't want you to pay attention, they want you to look the other way. - Yeah, they want you to look the other way and they want you to believe Trooper Joseph Paul, who has our last caller from Ohio said, he called him an idiot, I'll be a little bit nicer, I'll use Alan Jackson's words and say he lacks credibility. Can I have cut 22, please? - So instead of calling the arche experts, which they had available to them, the commonwealth chose to introduce you to Trooper Joe Paul, you'll remember his testimony. I think I'm being kind when I say that Trooper Paul's analysis lacked credibility. Trooper Paul lacks the experience, the education, the training, the background and the knowledge to not only render opinions on these issues, but to even understand the issues themselves. He makes the absurd claim that John was hit on the elbow area of his arm by a tail light, he was spun to the left in a pirouette, his arm stayed on the light long enough for the shards of plastic to explode around him, scratching his arm, even though he was wearing long sleeves, then projecting him 30 feet to the left, but not before making a stop to hit his head on either the curb or the pavement, therefore coming to his final resting place with his unbroken phone tucked neatly under his body. It's nonsensical, it borders unlaffable. - Yeah, and something that Jackson said today, which really does chisel it down to the bare bones is that the commonwealth just had to prove like a very easy three-step narrative. Karen Reed was mad at John O'Keefe, she hit him with the car and then she drove away. And there's nothing in this case that proves that. And in fact, the lack of evidence that shows anything like that is jarring and it makes you believe that something else is going on. Plus something I was really glad that Alan Jackson brought up and keep in mind, we're nine weeks in, so it's very important that he's able to refresh the jurors' memory and I thought he did a great job because there were some parts to this tailor that I was thinking to myself, I forgot about that. I forgot about the ring camera footage of John O'Keefe's house when Karen Reed backed up into his car. After the commonwealth had told us they didn't make contact and then you saw with your own eyes, her Lex is back into his car and bump it. When we come back, we're gonna see if Judge Canoni is wrapped up with these instructions. If not, turtle boy's not gonna be able to join us. We'll see on the other side.