The Miami Heat picked 10th in the NBA Draft in 2015, and no one thought Justise Winslow would slide to them. But he did. And they took him over Devin Booker. Ethan, Alex and Greg review the thinking at the time, and discuss what could have been.
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https://redcircle.com/privacy Well the latest episode of five on the floor and the five reason sports network. Thanks for joining us on your favorite podcast app Android recommends Spotify or the five reasons YouTube channel on Apple Apple podcast Also check out off the floor get all the latest Miami heat information without having to scroll through Twitter $2.99 per month You can find the link right here in the description on the podcast feed and on the YouTube channel Also check out the great sponsors Five reason sports network includes our friends over at prize picks legal again in the state of Florida We know that some of the sports that you follow are winding down But there are others still going on you can still play MMA. There's tennis. There's golf. There's WNBA There's lots of stuff to do on prize picks. So get your fix in use the code five FIVE get that initial deposit matched up to $100 gonna code is five FIVE football will be here soon enough. You want to be on there before then and now today's episode Down the fish game Yeah Welcome to five on the four a daily insider show on the Miami heat and the NBA featuring Ethan Skolnick Greg so van der and Alex Toledo plus others from the five reason sports network All right, welcome back to five on the floor here's today's floor plan I'm Ethan Skolnick and follow me the Ethan J. Skolnick and at five reason sports. We got Greg so van der you can follow me Greg So van der we get Alex Toledo. You can follow him at tropical blanket. I apologize if I'm a little distracted I'm currently getting videos for my daughter's first day at heat camp and I can tell you she's already got the Jason Tatum push-off Perfected here not sure about what else has been perfected watching this but Tony Furentino told me he was gonna Make a run today. So we'll see how that see how that goes I want to appreciate the folks that he camp for taking good care of my daughter today and again check it out at heat.com All the junior heat camps that they've got going on Tony runs a tight shit, man I was there this morning and you know, they let the parents stay and watch I couldn't stay the whole time I'll go more tomorrow and I'm watching it. He got lined up. It's like drill sergeant stuff He's got him in the age groups and then Tony's tell them they better make their bed Which thank you because my daughter's not made her bed in about eight months And there's like a pile of laundry on top of her hamper that she blamed me for because she says I don't get to it soon enough so she just throws the cleat and the dirty stuff on top of it. It's not my job So I want to appreciate Tony doing that for me, but we'll see how that goes At heat camp. Of course our Sean Rochester is a proud graduate of of heat camp as well. All right Someone who won't be at heat camp speaking is although, you know, he's nice guy and he comes back Around these ways sometimes Justice Winslow. We're gonna talk about the 2015 draft make sure that you check out The previous episodes. We've done 2003 on Dwayne Wade draft 2008 on the Michael Beasley draft also the guys on playback have already done the Tyler hero draft which was 2019 and I believe they might do the Jaime Hawkins draft Before we get started there, maybe even the BAM draft, but on this one we're gonna talk about the Justice Winslow draft and I'll just tell you this because again, there's a lot of As we go to Greg and and Alex on this. There's a lot of revisionist history going on here Because at the time heat fans wanted Justice Winslow And did not think Justice Winslow was gonna fall and I could tell you that I was in Chicago for pre-draft camp And talk to a lot of players there and I can tell you that a certain heat Executive texted me because he felt I was spending too much time and tweeting too much about Stanley Johnson And that this was gonna give away the heats, you know desires prior to the draft Please stop tweeting so much about Stanley Johnson. I don't really take direction that way, but it was kind of funny. He was joking But of course Stanley Johnson was projected by most people to be the Heat's picket 10 Because Justice Winslow was projected by some to go in the top five And I'll go through the draft here again Carl Anthony Town's first the Angelo Russell second Jaleel Oka for third Christop's poor Zingas new NBA champion fourth Mario Hizonia fifth Willie Colley Stein six Emmanuel moodier. I was wrong about him. I loved him at summer league Seventh Stanley Johnson eighth Frank Kaminsky ninth Justice Winslow 10th to Miami miles Turner to Indy Trey Liles to Utah and of course Devin Booker 13th by the way Turner was year one 16th in that draft To to Boston but and the long-wind like right after Terry. I think he did he went Well, not right after but he did go where was it? 20th 20th. Yeah 20th you went four picks later and I remember being at a set of 90 the ticket draft party I think a golf stream or something like that and and I remember people were actively hoping that Justice Winslow would fall the arena was at that draft party The arena went nuts when the heat drafted justice by the way and This was similar to Caron Butler slipping to 10 In 2002 and so I'll give you the scene and then I'll set you guys up on this my understanding of what happened that night Okay Was that they got the phone call? Okay, and it wasn't just them Charlotte got it to all right Jordan right ahead of them Got the call to they ended up taking Kaminsky which was worse Okay, got the phone call that there were all these picks that were going to be offered and my understanding of this Okay, is that Pat turned to Adam Simon and said you always want picks? Do you want the picks or do you want the player they took the player? So this idea again that you know This was you know this crazy notion that you would want a guy like Justice Winslow It just performed really well in the tournament and actually had hit a bunch of threes in the tournament Which was one of the things I think that attracted them him to that was that they seemed like they could develop that part of the game And they did to a certain degree he shot 38% The year before the year he left and he actually told me I remember Alex you and I were together But the my audio didn't work. I think we were in Palm Beach and Justice told me walking off the court that he was going to be a sniper That year, but unfortunately he was sniped out of town before they But Greg just going back to it like Again, there's a lot of revisionist history here because I do not think people were pounding the table for Devin Booker with that pig I think some heat fans had Devin Booker on the short list I think the heat had Devin Booker on the short list But I just think that this felt like Coron Butler scenario 2.0 where like a guy fell that was just too good You didn't expect him to be there and so you kind of had to scrap what maybe was your plans and go with the guy that fell to you And yeah now with the benefit of hindsight It's easy to be like oh well They should have taken Devin Booker or Miles Turner or one of those other guys I think Devin Booker is the one that creeps up on people the most Maybe because the Kentucky can connection or some of the comments that have been made since the years after that But on draft night he fans felt like they had the best of two worlds and they basically got to choose Which guy that was in justice or if there was be you know Devin Booker fans out there But as the person who wrote justice better for Miami heatbeat I can tell you that we were super excited about justice wins though When he got here and he kind of felt like he was going to be the guy that Dwayne passed the torch to to some degree rarely early on in in his rookie season it seemed like he was being taken under that wing and so It it aligned initially and then just obviously fell off the rails as we went But I don't think anyone can look back on draft night in 2015 and say that they were upset that the heat Took justice wins though when they did no matter what it looks like today You and Alex in a second, but you mentioned the Dwayne justice connection. I remember being in the interview room And uh they did a photo shoot together for sports illustrated a cover shoot Uh the two of them there definitely was uh a push Uh to make him the next big thing and he wanted it I mean he talked about being the next face of the franchise To the point of the 2019 season after they'd gotten jimmy butler And if you remember justice had 27 7 and 7 in the season over jimmy missed the first three games due to personal issues Uh with the heat he didn't actually debut until the fourth game and like justice was acting like it was his team Uh, and then of course he was traded prior to covid You know in that that big deal that ended up netting igudala Crowder and solemn and hill, but Alex I guess the reason people were excited about it was first thing He did look good as rookie here. I mean whereas a lot of these rookies if you look at this draft, okay This was did not turn out to be a great draft. Okay. You've got cat D'Angelo Russell who has really I mean he's had moments But he hasn't as a winner lived up to the number two pick on the draft he's been traded a couple times Okafor really didn't pan out. He was kind of You know back to the basket player at a time where it's slow. It didn't really play out in the pro is porzingis Yes, obviously Hizonia when I ended up going back overseas callie steins been a role player moody a kind of a bust Stanley johnson kind of a bust is bounced around kaminsky definitely a bust Um, I mean if you look at the it's amazing too because if you look at these guys like Like the games played like okay. You've got cat you've got russell And porzingis who hasn't even been that durable and then a lot of these guys terry rosier Has played more games. Here's a stat for you Terry rosier has played the most games in his nba career of any of the top 21 picks in that draft Um, I'm which will tell you something like a lot of these guys either became role players There's one there's a couple of stars towns and And booker right so I mean it's it's not like the heat made a horrible pick. It's just who they didn't pick Yeah, and I think that's what it comes down to and that's why it always gets brought up alongside You know precious a couple of years ago. It's like You know the the mistakes. I feel like are given More of you know the I guess the expose then the Then the good picks right because it's like, you know, you could have had devan booker who was in the finals a couple of years ago Um was the best player on that team. I mean you can make a case. So it's chris paul I guess um since they they got so successful after they acquired him, but regardless, you know was a the main player of a finals team Um, don't think any of us any of us thought he was gonna be that good, right? Um, he seemed like he was gonna be like a good shooter in the league somebody who could score but Um, I don't think a lot of people had him becoming You know one of the best scores in the league a top 20 or so type of player And somebody who could be the best player on a finals team. So I mean Um, even with the way things have played out since where it's been a lot of disappointment in phoenix, especially since you know They they're they're a couple of big threes that they've trotted out Um, you know, it's It's a lot right like because you went from justice who was a productive player for you was it was a helpful player for a playoff team right away Um, and then had this weird arc where like they moved him Uh into being a point guard, which is you know what we all thought It should have happened because of the skill set that he had where he was better on the ball than off the ball You know, it became somewhat of a better shooter was a fantastic defender from the start and Frankly just to me like I something I I felt at the time as well was that his his um Lack of finishing was a bigger problem than the three-point shooting because I felt like, you know He could make a stand still a wide open three But like there was times like he would have the ball he could make a play with it create for others But when he got to the rim himself that to me was the the biggest issue With justice and so justice still better, right? We're we're always we're always gonna keep that going But yeah, it hurts because it's like the the guy is now in the g league and devan booger is a top 20 player So it's just hard to Overlook these things but man that like when you mentioned when you reminded me of that first game It was like you just brought me back. I felt like an alternate timeline or something Where justice is going crazy. Jimmy hasn't even played a minute for the heat yet And he's still the starting point guard like it doesn't feel like justice was a part of You know the jimmy air right like it feels like distant And it's like and and at the you know at the end of the days is i haven't thrown one in here He ended up getting you three rotation players two of which were hugely important for you in the playoffs um Because he was the main like thing that the that the other team was getting was it the grizzlies? Yeah At the grizzlies were getting back was justice winds though because no, but they were making that trade for jit for an older james johnson or deon waiter now So, you know it could have been worse right like i don't think it's as bad as the pressure spake if we're comparing there Um because I think justice was was actually a pretty good player But yeah just looking back on it now with all the hindsight It's unfortunate Well, I think you look at the arc with him in miami too is um He made this weird transition From being seen as a total heat culture guy to the not Like the rookie season like the whole narrative around him was he plays great defense Um, and you know, you can plug him in anywhere and you know He just sees fills all the holes on the court for you. Okay, even if you're at lack some finish A the at lack some finishing lack some shooting and then ended up getting stuck At center literally in the last game against toronto But as the career went on There became these issues behind the scenes about health And you know what I had heard that year was that you know, just his base He thought his injury was worse than he did And that you know, he went and saw a couple specialists He didn't really believe what the specialist told him and that essentially the relationship became fractured beyond repair It's interesting in the context of the availability conversation That has happened over the past few months that at that time I guess the heat had a stricter attitude about it, which I think there's going to start to get back to Um, but it just seemed to a people I think inside the organization. He didn't really didn't want to play Um and and that it was a little ben simmons like I don't know if it ever got that bad But I that that is how it was sort of portrayed Especially after the trade That that they made with him Uh, and and you know, the thing is the reality is the jimmy justice thing never would have worked Greg I mean because you just didn't have enough shooting on the floor like I there You know, we could talk. I mean, really jimmy did everything justice did better I hate to use that word guys better, but he just did he was just a better Version of winslow and all those and so it's like okay. You really didn't need another Like that and so I I think his time just kind of passed Again, we can talk about booker, but let's let's close the book on winslow here I mean, do you think there's any way it could have worked here I think as a rotational wing defender in the jimmy era like there's a place for him and bring him off the bench Yeah off the bench. There we go, but it just to your point I think that there was also you have to remember that To get off diem waiters and james johnson's contracts like that was a big deal as well So that had a little bit to do with this and um I don't know that justice necessarily In the jimmy era was really given a chance to work out like that It feels like things were fractured by that time And kind of they started to drift apart as the season went on and then obviously the trade happened so I I would say that they could have worked something out, but never at the scale That I think justice had envisioned himself coming in and being from miami And that's where the disconnect I think took place is that you had a guy who at one moment was talking about I want to be the face of the franchise To now being kind of an afterthought off the bench that just wasn't the trajectory I think he nor the organization was expecting Does it remind a little bit although tyler is obviously developed into a more of a prominent player for the heat than justice did But a little bit about a guy sort of feeling that his role and capability is maybe a little different Than might be the ideal um because I it does remind me somewhat of that like the justice Feeling face of the franchise. He wasn't a face of the franchise type player. He was uh, he was a really good role guy Um, you know tyler has confidently put himself in the class of luka and others When really what the heat need from that spot is a really good catch-and-shoot guy Um, I I did there are some similarities here. I think you know again tyler as we discussed Uh, and we did this on playback. There's no way you can argue that was a bad pick. You just can't I it was he he should have in a read draft you shouldn't have gone 13. He should have gone really no later than six Um But with justice you can make arguments even though it didn't turn out to be a great draft But I think I think there are some similarities in those two things All right, when we come back, we're gonna talk a little bit about devan booker here and kind of what everybody missed Um, before we do want to mention a great sponsor of the five reasons for his network don't miss out Uh, if you have a leak in your place your home or business reach out to water clean up a florida immediately They'll do the leak detection that and if if something happens they'll do the damage assessment as well Clean it up for you completely work with your insurance company and all of that but check them out at wcufl.com That's wcu fl.com michael roberton's team more than 75 star reviews On google again, check it out at water clean up a florida wcu fl.com if you've got the schmutz they got the guts All right, so greg what did everybody miss on devan booker because if you look at the the numbers here I'm looking at total points from that draft. He's first 14,529 career splits of 46 36 and 87 Um, some of their metrics. He's kind of like the second or third most productive player Townes is actually first. He's in there with poor zingus by the way terra zero zero is the top 10 productive player from that draft Um in fact, you know else is the top 10 productive player from that draft corner line of the metrics josh richardson who actually the heat got at 40 and we should mention him because Uh, you know he made a big difference for them. He was basically their seventh man. They sent him back and forth to su falls uh that year And uh and to work on pick and roll stuff and everything else but he had a month where he was absolutely on fire from three Shot like 55 and from three. He could not miss And of course he's been brought back and he's one of the more popular players in the organization We expect him to be back next year too most likely on that player option So they did better in that draft than most teams just the fact that they cashed in on a 40th pick Although everybody's focused on the 10th pick but greg what what did everybody miss? It wasn't just them I say this about maxi too. It wasn't just them. I mean Uh A lot of teams could have had but devan booker. He went to he was picked 13th Seems like the playmaking was a big part of it Like that that was a part of his game that he's developed as time has went on and then just the absolute volume scoring I mean, you knew he was a good shooter and a good score but a 70 point guy. That's that's reaching another realm So I think that that was her I think his ceiling was was judged incorrectly and then just the other parts of his game I think he's a more complete player than maybe he was given credit for on draft night Alex what did what did everybody miss? For sure. I think late pretty much nailed it there Like he he he could just straight up do more than any of us pretty much thought that he could You know somebody that can Be one of the best scores in the league do it in a variety of ways where they're on or off ball Because he doesn't he's not just like somebody who needs to have the ball in his hands To score and I think that's why there was some like appeal and like, okay Maybe the sons can't figure out this whole all offense thing because they've got a nice Trio of guys who can play on or off ball with kd biel and booker All three of those guys can can play on or off off the ball So I think you know, um booker just getting to that level. I didn't see that coming the other thing That unless i'm wrong here correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure he came off the bench that season For Kentucky. That was the year. That was the team that Was like undefeated or whatever if I if I remember correctly that they had the Harrison twin starting Cat was in the starting line up trade liles mine Colley stein as well and mild and mild and and in trade liles they had They basically had like four five guys drafted. I think because one of the harrisons was drafted In the second route you right and that was part of it I mean tyler look there was a little of that with tyler too tyler really didn't come on till the second half Of his freshman season and then he went but yeah, I think that was part of it. Um I I think he was viewed just as a shooter. I I really think that's the case I don't think The playmaking skills And all that it's it's funny because a lot of the same things that were said about tyler were said about booker And then of course people are going to throw this back at my face because I tweeted this but it's what someone the organization said Tyler was told in his rookie season. Don't look at being debit booker. Look at being better than him Um, and of course that has not happened although tyler has had moments Uh, but again, it does show you how You know projections can be wrong that guys can develop other skills And he did develop these other skills with phoenix who knows it would have happened with miami I tend to believe if it happened with phoenix it would have happened with miami Um, if you look at what they would have had at the time Um, you know, again, this was sort of a rebuild for the heat, you know, the bosh Situation was up in the air. They still had dwayne too And you know because this was the 2015 draft And I just I wondered like how would that have looked like people don't really talk about that But you I should be going to play booker at the three. I'm I tried to get away from the position stuff But you know that that was something with justice. It was kind of like okay justice was kind of positionless like Wasn't a great shooter the point guard thing was really something mimey heat beat invented Uh, and then and especially in the kayas right and then it kind of became Uh more of a heat thing and a heat fan thing after that but with debon there was that question I I think and you know dwayne was getting older and I know people are going to say well This was the natural air to dwayne and all that I don't think that anybody was viewing it that way at the time I just think there's a frustration because the heat have gone to kentucky And here's one opportunity. They could have gone to kentucky and got a star star And then there was another one that came up a few years later And they didn't get either of them and we're still debating now whether or not the kentucky guard they have Uh can be that guy. So anyway greg. I'll let you close the loop on this. We appreciate our sponsors Water cleanup tons of draft coverage coming up this week. By the way, I do want to mention We will have a playback wednesday during the draft go to playback download the app playback It's free playback.tv/5rsn. You can watch the draft along with us. I'm going to be in new york Alex and brady will be uh here in miami greg will be hosting podcast. We've got bentovia Uh, and our our photographer kevin ronriguez are going to be out at the draft party at dolphin mall So we have everything covered. We've got a big team of people that are going to be doing this Um, greg. I'll let you close the loop on this Listen if the justice pick Could feel so right at the time and now you see what happens It's just a it shows you that these drafts are unpredictable as hell And no matter who they draft you should keep an open mind because you don't know which way these things are going to go From one year to the next guys trajectory completely changes So I think that it is instructed to see the winslow draft as one that he fans were cheering about on draft night And now look back on with a little more disdain because they think what if Uh, you may get similar scenarios and sometimes you're right Sometimes you're wrong, but the heat tend to be more right than wrong. It appears with these drafts lately The other thing about the wave before we wrap this up That's kind of like relevant to what we're talking about here. Ethan, you mentioned the Kentucky guards and the ones that the heat didn't take right and now like you have a guy this week Who in rod billingham who is falling right and could potentially be in the heats range Um when they're on the clock there and could be available and you know, he's a lot smaller entire east maxi So I don't know if this is a lot smaller than devan bugger and just a lot smaller than pretty much anybody in the league when you look at wait but um Yeah, like that's kind of relevant here like as we do this episode is they have another They might have another opportunity with a Kentucky guard like that And you know, we'll see we'll see if they pass up on this We'll see we did a playback on him as well Um smiling here because my daughter gave her a review of her first day of uh heat camp So here maybe she'll be drafted Amazing. I love basketball hearts exclamation points. I had so much fun. I also learned how to shoot correctly See that's more that justice windsla was able to do with the heat a few years. All right. Have a good one everybody Thank you for listening to the five on the floor on the fibers and sports network after all Someone needs to listen to my dad.
