(upbeat music) - Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you a little bit more about one of our favorite things ever, audible. - Oh, audible.com or that app. - The app is great in a mommy app, constantly listening to audible helps your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre really that you like, you can listen to and you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, even new ways of thinking. This can unlock a lot for you. Audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as part of your daily routine. You don't need to even set extra time aside. That's what's great. There's more to imagine when you listen. And I'll tell you something that has set both Jimmy and I's imagination soaring and that is the Lewis and Clark journals. We're both really into these right now. - Unbelievable. - And as an audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog including the latest bestsellers, the newest releases. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com/smalltownmurder or text smalltownmurder to 500, 500. That's audible.com/smalltownmurder or text smalltownmurder to 500, 500. Now back to the show. Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you about a really great way to watch all of your favorite shows and everything like that. And that is Philo. Philo has done the impossible and changed all that. One service, all the stuff you need right there. Philo's got current seasons of the shows. I can't miss and we can't miss on networks like A&E, MTV, Discovery, TLC, classics like The Office, Martin and Friends that people just, you don't get sick of it. And all of the incredible originals on AMC+ from Mad Men to Orphan Black. 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It's a convenient way to run your household, customized to your family's needs, and the easy way to raise financially smart kids. Get started with Green Light today and get your first month free at greenlight.com/wondery. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. - Yeah, and choo-choo! - Oh, yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrogallo. I'm here with my co-host. - I'm Jimmy Wissman. - Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another episode of Small Town Murder Express, where, as we always do, we are gonna pack 10 pounds of murder into a two-pound bag, and it's no exception today, 'cause we got a bunch of murder and a real weird mystery. It's gonna be a lot of fun. We'll get to that, though. Before we get to that, though, very quickly, definitely head over to shutup and give me murder.com. Tickets for live shows, Minneapolis, you are on deck, September 20th. You sell out, you'll be our biggest show we've ever had. Come on down, it's at the State Theater. It's a beautiful venue. It's lovely, so we can't wait. We walked past at our last time in Minneapolis. We were looking for food, and we said, "Wow, that looks gorgeous. "I wish we could play there." And here we are, so this is gonna be fun. Check that out, shutup and give me murder.com. Also get tickets for the rest of the shows for the rest of the year, as well. Also, get Patreon. If you wanna hear more, patreon.com/crimeinsports is where you get all the bonus material. Tons of it, anybody $5 a month or above, skip one cup of coffee. So we're asking for, instead, get this. It's so much better. Hundreds of back episodes. You've never heard of bonus stuff. New episodes every other week. This week is no different. Well, we have this week, four crime and sports, which you have access to, of course. We're gonna talk about fireworks accidents in honor of the 4th of July there, which-- - That's wonderful, yeah. - Oh my God, they're so much fun, too. Then for small town murder, we are gonna talk about the real tombstone. - Oh boy. - It's so much dirtier than the movie. The movie, it's a real clean and reality-why-it-urps-a-pimp, and this, it's, I, and I, clanton's not dumb. The whole thing's crazy. He's not-- - You can spell? - He just threw an election. It's crazy. The guy, like, Ford, it's nuts. We'll talk all about it. That is patreon.com/crimeinsports is where you get all of that. So, and you get a shout-out at the end of the regular show. And while we're on this subject, listen to the other two shows we make, crime in sports, and your stupid opinions as well. - Boy, oh boy. - Check those out 'cause they're a lot of fun, very funny stuff here, and if you can't get enough, then that's where you can get it. - That's where it is. - By the way, if you listen on Apple Podcasts, every time they do an update, they screw this up, so-- - They ruin people's lives. - They turn your auto download off, so go on to our podcast page and your phone and your library thing. The dot, dot, dot, in the upper right-hand corner in the ellipses, click on that. - Fix the mistake. - Turn your auto download back on. That said, let's get into this. I think it's time, everybody. Doesn't matter where you are. Doesn't matter, where do you go? A butcher chopping a big side of beef right now? - Watch your thumb. - I want you to give it a left, right, left like your rocky, and I want you to throw your arms up in the sky and shout-- - Shout out. - Shout out and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? - Yeah. - All right, let's go. Road Island this week. - It's a nice place. - It's a nice place, little tiny place. And if you're asking, the Last Road Island episode was an express, and we usually do express regular, express regular, well, the state is the size of-- - It's got nothing. - It's smaller than Disney World, basically. So it's hard. A lot of the murders are in Providence, which is a bigger city, so we can't do that. It's a lot, so you miss it. So here we found East Providence Road Island, which is there's water between Providence and East Providence, so it's not just-- - A little peninsula. - Yeah, it's not just, and it's own little panhandle in Northeastern Road Island here, and it's about 10 minutes to Providence, you gotta cross the bridge. It's about 15 minutes to Pawtucket, our last Road Island episode. So if you're going, well, that's very close. It's Road Island, everything is 15 minutes away. It's not very far, it's really not. It's your neighborhood. - It's all 15 minutes away. - It's all 15 minutes away. I mean, it's all 15 minutes away. That episode was called Horrors in the Graveyard, and I remember it, it was wild, 'cause they lured women into the graveyard. - It's terrible. - It was awful. Topulation of East Providence, 47,171. - It's a good amount of people. - Good size, it's kind of broken into a few towns within the town, that's how it works here. Median household income pretty close to the national average, $65,016. Median home cost here, $356,300. So, kind of around the average, too. So, it's kind of incomes about average. This is all kind of average. Little bit of history. In 1775, this area was home to a four-canon fort, which was used to protect the harbor in the event of a British attack. - How about that? - That's how this started, yeah. - Do you know the name of the fort? - I don't know, I'm not sure of the name of the fort here, but it was once part of, oh God, Raghobith. How do you say that? - Raghobith, Raghobith. - R-H-O-B-E-T-H. Yup, sea, sea-conk, also. And first, it was part of Raghobith, then part of sea-conk Massachusetts. - Yeah, you're doing great so far. - That's something I know the area here. The Indian words, I can get 'em here. I'm from Wopinger's Falls, so I get it. - And my family's from Raghobith Beach, Delaware. - Oh, okay, well, same shit then, yeah. East Providence became an independent Rhode Island town in 1862. So, I guess right now it has its five neighborhoods, is kinda what it's broken into. Phillipsdale, Rumsford, watch a moket, watch a moket, Kent Heights and Riverside. - It's like the families in New York. - Yeah, it's the five families over here. You go watch out. The Kent Heights are always beefing with the Phillipsdales, and the Rumsfords have to come in and fuckin' - And their sons. - Make everything, the Rumsford and sons. So, yeah, this was, I guess it's an important thing for-- - Sure. - Back in the day, the water there helped and everything. So, let's talk about reviews of this town, 'cause we've never been there before. - Never. - Here's five stars. A lot of five star reviews, a lot of people like this place. I've lived in East Providence for my entire life. - Tire, wow. - Tire, we have a great public school district, good sports teams, and other programs for kids. We are also, never heard of your, yeah, East Providence Raiders or whatever the fuck you have. - I haven't seen your jerseys as I wander through the mall. - No, we are also very close to Providence and not too far from Boston, so you can definitely find things to do here. Yeah, people can drive to Boston from here, like you can work at Boston. - It sounds the exact same, yeah. - It's the exact same accent. In Rhode Island, too, they get the Boston, like, news on TV and all that kind of shit. Yeah, they're all Red Sox fans, it's disturbing. So, three stars, quiet, safe place to live, overactive police force, with a large amount of extra funding from taxes going to the police, going to fund police force that makes way too much money off traffic stops and speeding tickets. - Sons of bitches. - They do the same description for the traffic forces they do for a thyroid. - Yeah, same shit, overactive. Overactive police force, makin' me fat. - Yeah, they're too fat. - Too fat, three stars, there have not been many incidents of criminal activity in this neighborhood, and if there have been, the police in the area have responded quickly and effectively. That's 'cause they're overactive. - They're active as fat, that's why. - When they're giving you a ticket, it's a bad thing, but, you know, I guess we need help in another way. - So, guess what, so it goes down right there? - They're already there. - I guess you aren't overactive. Three stars, mega doesn't invest enough in the people. The mayor, we're talking about now. - Specifically. - Roads are terrible and priorities are in the wrong areas, but it's always been my home. - Okay. - So, the bad mayor, as the complaint here. And then finally, two stars, which wish there was more light night dining places. Light night, I don't know what that means. Light night, I guess late, I don't know. We have unique restaurants, but the nightlife is dull. - Is this? - 'Cause it's a small town. Go to Boston, it's right, go to Boston. - Go to Providence. - Providence is around the peninsula. - You could swim there, it's right there. - Make a reservation. - Bring a change of clothes, cop out, soak and wet, change up and go do something. I don't know what to tell you. - Things to do here, the Rhode Island Folk Festival. - Oh, maybe. - Folk? - Folk Festival. Yeah. - Folk music in Rhode Island. Is that popular? - That's exactly what I think of when I think of folk music. Just sitting in the middle of Rhode Island, eating a lobster. (laughing) In a white fucking cable knit sweater. - Yeah, that's why I picked this as the thing to do, 'cause I'm like, this doesn't seem to fit. - That's crazy. - It's a free music festival, which you know, it's gonna be good, featuring some of the finest folk acoustic and Americana singer-songwriter acts in the Rhode Island area. So they're-- - Never. - And local. - As I say, they're not even claiming National Acts, like the other one this week, that was-- - Right. - National Acts, we never heard of them here. So it is the festival will feature three stages of acoustic themed music. - Jesus. - The band-- - It's like the fucking warp tour. - It's Lollapalooza here. The band shell stage features National Acts and Rhode Island's top bands, the songbird stage on the other end of the park features, the alternative side of the folk and gazebo stage, the alternative side. Just, it's folk people, but they wear flannel shirts. They're not wearing cable knits. - Well, we can see their knees through their jeans. - Oh my God, it's a great opportunity to get a good dose of the Rhode Island sound, as well as some classic performances this year who will be here. - Tell me. - Lisa Kyoto and Melanie Moore, that's an act. - Lisa Kyoto? - Lisa, C-O-U-T-O. - Kudo? - Kudo? - Kudo, I don't know. - Kudo. - It says "Kudo, no, no." It says, "Show up at noon to hear them play." Oh, one play, Lisa plays and watch Melanie Moore dance. One plays while the other dances. - Oh, boy. - This is just a lesbian couple that's forcing you to watch what they like to do at night. (laughing) We don't wanna watch you dance while you play a loop. - They choose each other with their talents. - Dan Lilly and the Keepers with Amy Badard Acoustic Quartet and the picture, the lead singer and guy playing guitar is just a bald 60-year-old man. Like, I mean Homer Simpson bald, like he's just the top there and then a mustache and yeah, everybody's kinda old and hunched over. Next up, Tom Rush. - Yeah. - It says, "Join us as we welcome the legendary Tom Rush." He's legendary. - Is that? - I don't know. - Matt Nackoa, he'll be sitting in with Tom Rush. - Oh, Tom's got a guest appearance. - He's got a guest. - Sure. - Then there's Michelle Malone, the definition of Atlanta rock sound southern. Rock sound, southern blues touched guitar driven and all about the song. - She's touched, all right. - A little touched. (laughing) Poor Michelle's a little touched in that. Chris Barardo. - Yeah. - Says a quarter century of music making has been a pure heartfelt emotional outpouring. It hasn't worked out. - Creativity hasn't reached this genre of music yet to give your band name something clever. It's just your first and last name of it. - That's all of this Chris Barardo. He couldn't even give himself a better stage name than Chris Barardo. - He's got a bad name to... - I get, I'm not one to talk when it comes to that, but different for a fucking comic. Yeah, I'm not trying to be cool. Like a rock person's trying to be cool. And Ty and Moon of Boo City. I don't know what they do. We make time sexy, it says. The whiskey flows like wine. Fun is okay with us too. They're gonna fuck the whole audience. - Calm down with whiskey flowing that much. - Flowing like lies. - It's too much whiskey, man. - That's a lot. That seems like a lot. So that said, let's talk about some murder here because we got a bunch to get to. Let's start out, we're coming in hot. December 22nd, 1961. - Yeah. - Now you usually don't go back this far for cases. So you're going, why isn't they going back that far? That's how insane this case is. It's like, I don't care how old it is. This is wild shit here. So, and it goes, it's twisted. You'll see. - The newborn king is about to be here in '61. - It's December 22nd, '61 right now. Nancy Anne Frennier. Let's talk about her F-R-E-N-I-E-R. She is 19 years old at this moment. She grew up with three brothers and she graduated from high school like a year and a half ago from Adelborough High School in Massachusetts. She has a husband named William because it's 1961. So she already has a husband and a six month old son. - Oh boy. - 19. So, her husband's 22 and he's a vending machine salesman. Which. - Right on the fucking car, the brand new. - In '61, that was like a cool thing to do. - Hell yeah. - If you're a vending machine salesman now, that sounds like something Dennis Duffy on 30 Rock does. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, dummy, I got vending machines. You want to buy one? You should buy a cigarette machine 'cause that way the kids can buy him and nobody can see him doing it. You know what I mean? - Yeah, '61. Those machines were like pulled. You pulled something and something fell out. - Yeah, fell out. - Or it's where you got the Mike and Ike's or your bubble gum at the beginning at the front entrance of the store. - You know, it's not the vending machines they have today. - No. - '61 vending machines were, man, those are free of storage. - Remember those old cigarette machines? We were kids that were like, all of you pull the thing on it. - Pull the laptop around, yeah. - So poof and it just tripped. - Sounds like a video game. - Yeah, a pack dropped out. Yeah, it was like, it was pinball. Like you're pulling it out. It's fun. Maybe that's why we smoked 'cause we were. - They made it fun. - They made it so fun to get a pack of cigarettes when you were 16 at a pizza place while nobody cared. - Isn't it wild that it's fascinating when you see somebody smoking in a car now? Like that's how far out smoking is gone that seeing somebody driving down the road with a cigarette in their car, you're like, where, what time are you from? - I just look at you. - How did you get here? - What car it is? - Yeah, it's all. - If it's a shit car, like, yeah, who cares? - It's never nice. - No, my car, my aint don't smoke him. My car, what do you think? - No, see, what's a cigarette? No, Jesus. - Yeah. So she was the daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Walter Conroy of South Attleboro and she has worked, she worked up until her marriage. I guess she graduated early from high school. She graduated when she was 16 from high school. - Wow. - Got a job and then worked until she got married and pregnant and then now she's a, now she's a, an old 19 year old housewife at this point in time, which is crazy. So this morning on November, our December 22nd, she drives her husband to work to his place of employment in the family car, which they had one car. She dropped him off, then she was gonna drop off the baby with her mother and then she was gonna go to the laundromat to do the family laundry. And then her plan was to go Christmas shopping. So she was gonna get some presents for people while her husband was at work. So she goes, but later that day, he's waiting to be picked up from work. - Oh no. - And she never shows up. So he reports are missing and he calls the mother and mother says, no, she never came to get the baby, which, you know, this isn't like her. So he calls the police and nobody can find her. Not a trace. The next day though, the 23rd, they do find her car. It was found, yeah, their car. It was found abandoned here in East Providence, which is where she was shopping too. It's found abandoned kind of in a wooded area and some gravel, like we had a hard time getting out of it. Inside, yeah, inside the car is a laundry basket with folded and washed clothes, all finished. A paper bag from the Mammoth Mart, which is a store, and it's a department store, and also wrapped Christmas presents are in the car as well. Like fully, like had the store wrap them and everything. - Oh, okay, yeah. - Jesus, she's doing that one. - She's wrapping in the car, yeah, she's real good. - And a red light with the scotch tape. - No, yeah, back then they would wrap shit for you. So that's what she's so, looks like she just walked away from the car and got abducted by aliens or something. 'Cause if someone's gonna steal her, you think they'd take this shit and, you know, everybody likes a present. You don't know what's in there. It could be something great. - Leave that car untouched, too. Nobody rifles through it. And if you're taking somebody, you're taking shit, too. - And there's no blood in the car or anything like that. It's very odd. Then they find out that a man and a girl were nearby within sight and hearing distance of this car the day before and they said that they heard, the car was, by the way, near a reservoir. And they said they heard, they saw a man and a woman walking away from the car toward the reservoir and they heard the woman cry out in distress. - Did they catch what she said? Or just like a sound? - Just that she was yelling, a sound. Rather than, you know, do anything about it, they wait 'til the cops come talk to them the next day. - You know, it's funny you're here. I saw and heard some shit. - Yeah, I thought I saw a murder yesterday. That's interesting. So a police, they searched the whole area. There's a wooded area nearby. There's kind of like a lover's lane make-out point area nearby that they've searched by the reservoir. They searched the woods. They kind of look around and they don't see anything. They don't find her. So at this point, all the attention's going right on the husband here, William. William is a salesman for the vending machine firm and they bring him in and they say, "Well, you take a lie detector test there, mister." A 1961 lie detector test. - What is that? - Electros hooked up to your balls. - Yeah. - It's all about every cable. - Yeah. - Corbin, premium nuts. - Now during this, he admitted that his real residence is not sea conch as he had previously said in the missing persons report, but he actually lives in Pawtucket. He said that he used his mother's address in reporting his wife's disappearance because he knows cops in sea conch and thought that they would take more interest in it if those cops were involved. - Clever. - All right. - That's what he tried to do. So that's the big lie in the lie detector test they come up with. Otherwise, everything else he comes out clean. - Yeah, and that's a good lie too of like lying to get more attention on. - Yeah. - That doesn't look bad for him. - It's trying to get more cops. Yeah, it's trying to get more cops to find those. Looks better. - I want you guys to investigate more thoroughly. I didn't realize you'd find my lie. - Yeah, well, so he passes the lie detector test and he's got an alibi. He's at work all day too. So he didn't have the car. That's it. So December 27th now we go to and they still don't find her. They still can't find her. - Oh my God, five days. - Yeah, they find a Massachusetts storekeeper positively identifies a photograph of her as a woman that came in on the 22nd and asked for directions to New Bedford. So police say this owner told them she entered the store between five and six PM, bought a pack of cigarettes and asked for the directions and then left in a two-toned automobile. So we don't know. Now after leaving her son with her mother, I guess she was going toward the shopping center in the mid-morning. That's where everybody saw her. She made another stop too. They found out here that she used to live in New Bedford and I guess she has a grandmother who lives in New Bedford. They established that she stopped about noon on Saturday at a house on Slocum Road in North Dartmouth, Massachusetts, not far from New Bedford to use a telephone. And this wasn't like it wasn't a visit. She just stopped at a house and asked to use the telephone. - Wow, yeah, the people used to do that. - People used to do, especially a 19-year-old girl. It's not like she's gonna come in here and fucking take over the house or anything, it's not like-- - And she had family in New Bedford, but didn't know how to get there. - Didn't know how to get there. That's why the store owner, they're questioning whether he's just trying to get publicity for a store or not. That's what they thought. Maybe he's just trying to get people to come to a store. - Well, look, people only know how to get places today because they have apps and shit. There are tons, tons of people that still map how to get to their fucking parents' houses. - Yeah, they still don't remember. - Yeah, how do I get there? I need to be told by a computer voice, how to go places. People don't know Northeast Southwest anymore. - No, no, no, that's true, too. - It's amazing. - Well, they've never had a job where you had to. - Where you have to do it? - Yeah, New York for the electric company as a process server, you have to know-- - I knew everywhere else, yeah. - Yeah, so the family who let her use the phone said that she appeared quite upset. That's what they said. So this is all very odd here. She's upset, she's going places, she's shopping, she's doing laundry. At some point, she did the laundry, did the Christmas shopping, and then a stop. - And a stranger recognized distress, you know. - Distress, yeah. - That tells you she was certainly upset. - And then a woman was taken screaming from her car, serving, you know, crying out. December 28th, she's still missing. Police are right from this newspaper article. They say police combed snow-covered woods and conducted a house-to-house check in two states. They did it in Massachusetts, too. Basically, they made a big circle, and anybody in that circle, they went house-to-house looking for. - Yeah, a young mother, kissing through Christmas is certainly a big deal. - The headline is, "Teenage Mother is Still Missing." - Right. - I mean, that's a-- - After Christmas. - Christmas time, yeah. She's sitting there over Christmas, she's gone. So, yeah, they said her car was found mired in soft sand near the reservoir, and her car was locked, too. And her purse was in the hair, like we said, presents. They also dragged the frozen water of the reservoir. There's 11-inch thick ice. - Holy, how do you drag that? - They get power saws and cut big rectangles out of it, and then they-- - Wow. - They put shit in the water. - Go through the rectangle, the rectangle. - That's what they're trying to do. - Wow. - They end up giving up because it's so time-consuming and just-- - Yeah, you're gonna kill somebody doing that. - Yeah, they're not finding anything, too, and they don't exactly know where to look. You can't do it to the whole reservoir, so. It's kind of difficult. They get a new lead here on December 28th when the police ended up searching a Massachusetts in a wooded area of Rumford, and they got a new lead, I guess, here. Two 10-year-old boys said they saw a man and a woman walking into the woods about 2 p.m. on December 22nd, two hours after she left her mother's house to drop the kid off in South Adelborough to go shopping. Police say that they're looking in these woods for that and they don't find anything, though, so they don't know if these boys saw what they thought they saw or if they just saw somebody else walking in the woods 'cause they were gonna go fucking the woods. - Right. - We have no idea. So there's an article after that. Like a week later, they still haven't found her. It's been two weeks, and basically they're saying, everything's progressing nicely. We're right where we wanna be, the cops are, yeah. - Yeah, you gotta lie a little. - The headline is Rhode Island murder probe progress encouraging. - You're doing great. - They said it's very encouraging the murder. We haven't even found a body yet. Nevermind who the fuck did this. We don't even know anything about this. Go and great. We have a car, basically no new information since the first day she's been missing and-- - Yeah, but the new guy just brought in some crullers and some ducks, so we're doing great. - We are doing absolutely great. - So they said, yeah, everything's going fine. Finally, March 19th, the reservoir thaws. Early march. - Three months. - Fours. - Yeah. - Oh my God. - And then they end up finding her when she floats to the top in about three quarters, or I'm sorry, about a foot of water they found her floating in. - They missed her. - Well, she floated in, who knows where she was. They always say in the spring, it's like an old joke cops in New York would say, you know spring because the first floaters come up. Yeah, the first floaters hit the surface. That's how you know it's spring. Hey, there's some mafia guy from that was killed in January, great. - And I guess I never even thought about it, but if somebody goes through the ice or something goes through the ice, it probably freezes over pretty quick and there's no trace of it. - Frieses over very quick, absolutely, especially when it's 11 inches ice and you wouldn't be able to see it. So, but then someone would have had to get her through 11 inches of ice, that's the thing. - Right, you gotta cut that out. - So they're like, did someone just dump her here now? But then once they look at her body, she's been in water, they say she's been like frozen practically for a long time. So yes, they do find her. She is, by the way, absolutely ravaged with stab wounds. She is a mess. The night before she's found, by the way, her mother told everybody that she had a premonition that Nancy was dead. Okay, the next day they found her. - Solid gas, Ma, she's been dancin' it's Christmas. - Yeah, no shit. So they do a press release here and the police are quoted as saying, what kind of a fiend would do this? Why don't you find out for us? - That's your job, you tell. - That's not really, we don't know. They say that she was a victim of a sex murderer they're calling him. - Oh no. - She was definitely sexually assaulted before death. They don't get into the details of the exact sexual assault, 'cause it's 1961. But they say that it's a poor world when something like this happens and it's not getting any better. That's what the father said. So they had to, her husband had to go identify the body. Yeah, he said, I don't wanna go in, she's never hurt anyone in her whole life. - Goddamn it, the worst. - And Detective Captain Theodore C. Hilton described the case as a quote, sex perverted murder. Sex perverted murder. - Sex perverted murder. - In the next few days, they find her clothes because they find her scantily clad. They find her, she was wearing nothing. They find her slacks, underwear, and bra, and her shoes found several feet away from the body and the water. Her torn slacks ripped, she had ripped bra and underwear. We're found about five feet from the body. She was identified through her Adelborough, Massachusetts high school class of 1959 ring and a diamond ring and a wedding band and a hairpin engraved with her name. So, you know it's her. - There is a good reason to get that high school ring, huh? - That's, I guess so. - Definitely. - If you wash up three months after you disappear in a reservoir, they'll find you. (upbeat music) Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you about an awesome and an absolutely safe sponsor. Simply safe. - Simplysafe.com, S-I-M-P-L-I, safe.com. - It's one of our favorites because it's the one thing we use every day. It's we have the systems on everything we have, so we're always interacting with this and loving it and think about this. Let's set the scene for you. 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So stop comparing and start focusing with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/smalltownmurder today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelphglp.com/smalltownmurder. - Now back to the show. - So they said they're really searching for the weapon, the knife that slashed her neck, breast and groin. - Good God. - He went after sexual organs, whoever did this and slashed her throat pretty bad. And they're also looking for a billfold, some money that she might have been carrying as well. 'Cause if they find that, then it's not a robbery. So that's what they're looking for here. - You find both and if you don't find it and that person has it, then that ups the crime. - Exactly, that's exactly it. So at least they know a motive at that point. So they sent an automobile seat cushion to the Rhode Island crime lab to be tested for blood in connection with the knife slaying here. And the cushion was found near the East Providence Reservoir. So it wasn't in the car, it was found now. But it's been sitting out in the weather for three months. So who the fuck knows? - Six new technology, we're gonna find blood on that. - That's gonna be tough. They say two persons were released from police custody the day before after taking a lie detector test in connection with the killing. They're bringing people in for questioning all the time and polygraphing them. That's how they're doing. Now they say police in Vermont, actually in bar, bare Vermont, are they said that they have a similar murder and they are a woman named Doris Baker was murdered. And so they're checking for similarities to see if this might be the same person. So they keep searching for the weapon here and they can't find the weapon. They will never recover the knife that this happened. They got skin divers, dragging crews and all this type of shit. And they said they searched and combed the whole reservoir and never found it. They said at this point, Captain Theodore Hilton said that there are quote, "No clues and no suspects in her murder." - It's going great. - Going great, in other words. Progressing, ah, perfectly. So that was, that's March of '62. January 26th, 1963. Okay, let's talk about Elaine Martin, okay? She's 15 years old. She comes home from school. She's a sophomore in high school. Comes home from school around 2.30 PM. This is in South Adelborough, I believe, Massachusetts. About 2.30 PM walks in the house and finds her mother, 38 year old Edith Martin in a pool of blood on the kitchen floor. - Oh Jesus. - Yeah, so Elaine started screaming and ran next door and other neighbors came over and called the cops and firemen and it was a big deal. So Edith Martin's 38, her husband's name is John Martin. He was notified of this as he made his rounds as a milk truck driver for his father who operates a dairy. - There's a job that's gone. - Her dad's the, her husband, the two husbands are a milk man and a vending machine salesman. That's wild. - He had no idea. - No clue that that was not gonna be a thing soon. - That's not gonna be vile, very quick. - Man, so they said Edith Martin's five feet tall and thin. So she's small. They said though it looks like she put up a huge battle here. They said the interior of the home was fucking destroyed, chairs overturned, lamps smashed, pictures knocked off the wall and blood everywhere. - Oh, I believe that. - All over the fucking walls. I mean, it looked like five people were murdered in there. Somebody said, it looked horrible here. So the body was face down in the living room between the living room in the kitchen. Clad in a blouse and a slip. - The thing you wear under your skirt there. - Yeah, well I'm all had them. - Yeah, oh, that's an older lady thing, the slip. What's your slip on there? - She used to soak them in the sink with her fucking leg. Remember the legs, the tights that would-- - Oh yeah, yeah, the came in the eggs. The came in the egg, yeah. - Soak that shit in my sink and I go to brush it. Yeah, what is that? - Yeah, Jesus Christ. - God damn it. - The water's discolored from the dye leaking out of the legs. - Ah, I'm fucking horrible. - I think there's a, I think there's one use, I think you throw them out after that. - He fell these away, man. - You lay your tights on the chair. - I remember that shit. - Oh, we're broke, that's why. - Oh yeah, that's right. These are like four dollars, yeah. (laughing) So her clothes, her skirt and jacket were neatly folded on the bed in her bedroom, in the next room. So she took them off, doesn't look like, usually people don't ravage someone, rip their clothes off, murder them and then neatly fold their shit and put them on the bed. They said there's no evidence of a sexual attack in this one though. And also nothing to show that robbery was the motive. - Just a destruction of a small meek woman? - Yes, now for Nancy, they ended up finding money in her jacket when they found that in the reservoir. So they said, not robbery on that one either. And here nothing's been stolen. They said there is valuables out in the open, nothing stolen. She, Edith Martin, was a bookkeeper at the Allied Anidizing Company in Pawtucket, which is only a 10 minute drive for her house, so she would come home for lunch every day. That's what this is. So they say they're looking for a savage killer. There was five, there was seven knives around her body. She was stabbed over 30 times. So that looks very personal when someone stabbed that much. Five of the knives were broken. This person stabbed her, used her whole life block on her. Like, literally there was ones with broken handles, ones with broken blades, from going in or skull, they broke. So he got more. So there's five broken knives that she was stabbed with, with all of them. And then two other knives that were successful in not being broken while stabbing was contagious. - That's gotta be a guy that's cut to fuck all over his hands, right? - You would imagine so. A kitchen knives too, aren't meant for that. So they're gonna slide right off and you've got blood on her. - If you've ever broken a knife, holy shit, you back up so fast, be afraid of where the fuck that blade's gonna go. - Pop, oh Jesus. So the medical examiner said 31 stab wounds in the head, chest, stomach, and back. Which is just a horrible vicious attack, aiming for, yeah, they said it was unusually extreme ferocity is how the medical examiner put it. It's really a, someone would have to be strong to have some of these stab wounds. They said she'd been stabbed in the head, heart, lungs, liver, breast, and back. - Everywhere that matters. - Everywhere that, yeah, that would hurt somebody bad. So they said it seems apparent that her assailant just walked into the house a few minutes behind her. She put up a tremendous struggle, there were signs of it in every room with the house. So this went like around the house. - She's just all over. - Yeah, she was fighting. Neighbors, though, they report that they saw a man leaving the house by a side door. - Was he perhaps covered in fucking blood? - Covered in fucking head-to-toe blood. - Golly. - His car was parked in the driveway behind her car. And they said they never saw him before, they never saw him or the car. Mrs. Martin here, Edith, is described as a wonderful mother in person. She'd been working at her job for about three months and she would return the three miles to her home, usually between 12 and 12.30 for lunch, but today she didn't get here to one for whatever reason. She just returned here and this attacker is described as 30 years old and heavy set. Heavy set 30-year-old drove up to the house, 15 minutes later, went into the house. So they said he drove up and sat there for a little bit. Then went into the home leaving his car engine running. - Is that right? Like he's gonna be right back. - But yeah, like he's fucking going in quick for a Snickers bar. He, they called him about six feet tall, heavy set, about 30, dressed in a green woolen car coat, whatever that is, a car coat. I don't know. He emerged from the kitchen door at about 130 and drove away in the car, which had Rhode Island license plates and we're in Massachusetts. So the car, we'll talk about in a second here. By the way, one of the neighbors said they were an ideal couple, well liked by everyone, the Martins. They led an extremely tranquil home life. - That's one way of saying boring. - Say, the milkman didn't do this. - Right, nothing outrageous happens there. - At least his vehicle would have been easily to identifiable out in front of the house, you know what I mean? - Yeah, a Newman's dairy or whatever the fuck. - So several hours later, they find a man dead apparently from an intentional overdose of narcotics in a gas station bathroom in Pawtucket. And immediately they were like, maybe this is the killer, but there's no blood on him, no signs of cuts on his hands, no anything. So they say fuck, never mind. Then, as this makes the rounds with the cops this day, the East Providence people go, this sounds a lot like the one we got minus the sexual attack. But if she put up a big enough fight that might have been out of the question at that point, he might've had to get out of there, you know what I mean? So they're like the frenzy to tack with the knife. All this shit, this sounds a little bit like Nancy Frannier. So let's keep an eye on that. Now, neighbors have a description of the car. It's a blue 1958 Chevrolet. - Okay. - So that's a, I got a real good look at that shit. - Yeah. - They didn't get a look at the plate number just that it was Rhode Island. So through a, what they call it at the time, quote IBM processing, which means through a computer. But that computer was the size of a fucking warehouse, by the way. - Right, right. - Of 1144 blue Chevrolet's that year, it was learned that 117 belonged to people who lived in the Adelborough, Pawtucket area. So these officers here began a check of each of the 117 owners. The third name that came up is a name that they recognize. It's a young man who has a juvenile record and some psychiatric problems. And he, his last thing that he got in trouble for, which was the year before he got arrested for assaulting a 17 year old girl. He jumped into the girl's car after she left church. - Oh my God. - On January 14th, 1962. So three weeks after the attack here, pressed a knife to her throat. - Okay. - And ordered her to drive him to Slater Park, which is a rural area. The girl screamed for help and freaked out. So he took off and just jumped out of the car 'cause she was by church and people started turning around. So he took off and ran away, but the cops picked him up. And then he underwent several weeks of mental examination at Charles B. Chapin Hospital. And then was placed. - It's a pretty fucking serious crime. - That's a lot. And then was placed on probation by family court. - Oh my. - About a week after that though, before all this happened, 'cause he was taken in and then later on, they did the psychiatric stuff with him, he was arrested by police in Pawtucket after he forced a woman at knife point to drive him to a park. She jumped from the car and took off. So then he was caught after a short chase by a patrolman. - Wow. - So that's two in a week that he got arrested for. He was ordered to undergo psychiatric testing. He was held for observation for six months before he was released on probation. - And let go. - And also the Woon socket police said they wanted to talk to him as well in connection with a 1961 abduction of Mrs. Jean Roberts, a 21 year old nurse. This one, they said a youth jumped into her car when she stopped at a mailbox, forced her to drive through several communities, then robbed her of $2 and let her go. So they end up finding this car. They find it in Pawtucket. They find the car, the blue Chevrolet that is connected to this kid. And they keep a watch over it. It's outside of a movie theater. So they sit there for about two hours and watch this car. And so a family comes out. A mother, a father and a teenage son come out and go to get in the car. That is when they come up and they arrest Mr. Thomas Richard Knott, Jr. Tommy Dick Knott. - Yeah, yeah. - Tommy Dick Knott is, he's 17 years old. - Wow. - Yeah. - At this time. - At this time, in '63, he's 17, which means in '61 he was fifth. - He's a baby, yeah. - His dad's a steam fitter. He's got an older brother and a younger sister. He's a big stocky kid. They keep calling him Husky in all these articles. - That was a fun word. - That's a fun one. They live in Pawtucket. He's the captain of the Tolman High football team currently. - The biggest kid on the team. - The captain of the team, he's a full back, which back then, now full back is a blocker. Back then, full back meant the guy who ran the ball. - Right, that's the guy that, and he's the size of the ridge of Perry when that's the reason they used him because he's that big. - Exactly, and he's also one of the best youth sprinters in Rhode Island too. He's also a track star. - Fast as shit. - Captain of the football team, track star, and he's a big heavy kid too, so he's a good athlete. His coach, Anthony Parisau, said that he's a fierce competitor who always insisted on going back to play, even if he was hurt. He said one time his nose was broken and he still wanted to go back and he didn't care. He was playing anyway. - That's a tough kid. - Yep, he works part-time as a gas station attendant. He's also a strong kid that could break knife blades. That's what they're thinking. They said that he was very polite. They said he's very polite, very well-spoken. He was neatly dressed when he was arrested Saturday night, but both his green jacket and his shoes were stained with blood. - What? - That's not good. - That's going outfit. - He went to the movies with his parents with blood stained shirt and shoes, jacket and shoes. So they sit him down and they bring him into the station. Here's the interrogation of Tommy Dicknott. Let's do it. - Oh boy. - After a few minutes of questioning, he said, "I don't want to do this again." - Again. - And so the police went, "Pippa, pardon? What do you mean again?" They said, "What are you talking about?" And he said, "I killed her." And they said, "Who?" - Yeah. - And he said, "The woman in Adelborough," which is Edith Martin. And they were like, "Holy shit, that was easy." - That was easy. - Fuck. - Why are we good at this? - Then he said-- - Tell me what we did, son. - Tell me. Tell me what we did. - I want to duplicate this. - Write this down, yeah. Shit, there's no video cameras, goddamn it. Then he said something that really blew them away 'cause they're only looking at him for Edith Martin. He said, "I wish I had been caught before I killed this other woman. I'm glad you caught me." - Oh. - Now they're like, "Other woman? What do you--?" - Yeah. - There's more. So they said they looked, the cops looked at each other, he started weeping and crying. And he said that, "Yes, he's also responsible for the murder of Nancy Ann Frannie-Air," which you didn't even ask me about, but-- - Right. - It is. So he's not given a Miranda warning, by the way, here. This is 1963. '64 is the Miranda case. So that was the one where, but that's retroactive, by the way. So anybody who wasn't Mirandaized before that also applies to that. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So he blurted that out. Now they questioned him a little bit more, and they said that the friendier homicide, the cop said, "The furthest thing from my mind that night," like the guy said. I never even thought about that. We were trying to solve this one here. They also see that he has a band-aid on his finger. They questioned him, "How'd you cut your finger?" And he said that, "I don't know." And they said, "Do you have a scratch on your neck, "a big old scratch there? "Looks like a finger scratch. "How'd you get that?" And he said, "I can't remember." - Didn't your parents ask you these questions? What the fuck is going on? - Why are you covered in blood, and I'll speed up what the fuck's going on? - You cut your finger, and you got your coat and shoes all wet? - So then they directed him to strip to the waist, and they observed scratches on his shoulder, and asked about that. And they removed his shoes, and they said, "Look at your shoes. "There's blood all over them. "Can you explain that?" And he said, "I don't know." Can't explain that. Yeah, he gave an answer. He just said, "Yeah, that's when he blurted out "the thing about Nancy." They end up giving him over to the Nancy-N for friendier cops to talk to, also here. He's gonna end up with the guy who said everything was going fine earlier. - The one there is. - The Hilton guy who said, "I have no clues. "I don't know anything." So they sit him down. Now, Hilton will later say he Mirandaized the kid, but there's some squishy shit, and he already admitted to everything to the other cop. So, he said he got out of school at 11 a.m. that day, an early release schedule because of exams on December 22nd. He went home. His parents were out. Or not on December 22nd, on the day he killed Edith there in March of '63. So he said that he went home, his parents were out. He took his father's car. He said, "I knew I had to kill someone." - I knew. - I knew, yeah. He said that he had been reading girly magazines. - That was like a playboy? - Yeah, just hanging out and doing that. - Well, not sweetly. - Yeah, who knows? - Caught her. - Or an L, which one are you reading? So, they said, "I knew I had to kill someone." He drove to Adelborough and entered the Martin house. He said, "I told her all I wanted to do was rob her. "She began to scream and holler. "I grabbed some knives from the drawer." He said, "Everything went black." He said, "She screamed. "I went berserk when she told me to leave. "I ran to the kitchen and pulled knives from a steak set. "So from her fucking luck." There was a terrible struggle. She broke free, but I dragged her back into the kitchen again. I blacked out, I got scared and ran out. - I hate that word. - Oh, man. - You didn't, man, you didn't black out. - And they, a little more probing, he said, "I remember stabbing her several times." It's not so black out here. She ran from the kitchen into the living room and to the front door. I grabbed her and dragged her back to the kitchen. I just kept stabbing her. She wouldn't die. She's tough, man. She was getting stabbed and she got up and ran away. She's tough. So, he said that he just kept doing it and doing it. And then once he was sitting there and was finished, he got scared and he said, "I ran out. "The car stalled. "I just learned how to drive." He just got his license. - Fought the clutch. - He fucked up, stalled it. He said that he drove to a wooded area in Pawtucket and through several blood-stained articles of clothing into the woods of his and two saturated towels that he took from the home to wipe himself off. So, he stole two towels. That was all it was missing. He said-- - And the neighbors saw that this big-ass kid and thought he was 30. - Thought he was 30 'cause he's big. - Wow, yeah. - And I don't know if they got a good view of his face or if he had his head down or whatever. So, he said he drove back home, talked to a neighbor and then went into his house and watched TV, watched the three channels that was available in 1963. So, he said later he was picked up when he returned to his father's car with his parents after attending a movie. He said, "That's, then I'm here." - Unbelievable. - They said, "Why did you stop at that home? "Why'd you pick that one?" And he said, "I don't know." - Just felt good. - He said, "Did you know the woman?" And the kid said, "Never saw her in my life." - Unreal. - Random as fuck. So, they said, "Let's go back to December 22nd, 1961. "What happened there?" He said, "I was walking through the parking lot "at Mammoth Mart off Newport Ave in East Providence. "I saw a lady sitting in a car. "I got in beside her." He just popped in. - Same thing. - Same thing. - Same thing he did with those other two women. That's his gig here. Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you a little bit more about our friends, our very fashionable friends at Quince. Head over there, we have had it over there. I've gotten some good stuff. I got a jacket. 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And now back to the show. - Ryan Reynolds here from Midmobile. With the price of just about everything going up during inflation, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing. - Midmobile unlimited, premium wireless. Have it again 30, 30, 30, but again, 20, 20, then you get 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, just 15 bucks a month. So. - Give it a try at midmobile.com/switch. - $45 up front for three months plus taxes and fees promoting for new customers for limited time unlimited more than 40 gigabytes per month. So it's full turns at midmobile.com. - He said that, yeah, he left school. He said, I just had the urge to kill. He said, I saw the woman drive past and I just followed her and he said, you know, that was that. So yeah, he, wow. Anyway, he said that back to the other one, he said that he forced his way into Nancy Franier's car, took her to the reservoir. He said, he picked up a log 'cause he said he had gone to the shopping center to look for a girl. That's why he was there. 'Cause again, girly magazines he was reading, went there to look for, as he put it, girly mags, and that's what they say in the paper, went to the shopping center to look for a girl. And then he said that he took her to the reservoir, got her out of the car, brought her over to the reservoir, picked up a log and hit her twice in the back of the head. He said, then he rolled her over and cut her throat. So yeah, which is, I guess this was to the reservoir section and back of the Regis paper company off Ferris Avenue. He said, the car got stuck in gravel. That's why they left it. I forced her to walk into the woods. I walked behind her. By the way, at some point in here, he rapes this poor woman. - Had to, yeah. - He does, it's an attack. He just leaves that part out. He said, when we reached the pond, I walked onto the ice. She started to walk back to the road. She was like, I'll just go back. - Yeah, he's on the road. He's on the ice, I'm out of here. - Yep, he said, I hit her over the head with a log and she fell. I thought I had killed her. I struck her with the knife. Then he said, he knocked a holy cut her throat. Then he said, he knocked a hole through the ice using the log. - God, he's strong. - He bashed a hole on the ice. Then that's a big fucking log. Think about that that he hit her with. And then stuffed her body into the hole and shoved her in there. - Oh, my. - He said he shoved the log through the hole as well and hurled the knife as far out as he could into the water. So the knife somewhere in the reservoir. - Yeah, it's gotta be. - It was sitting there. A week later, you wanna hear something fucked up? Here's some Ted Bundy shit. A week later, he returned to the scene, broke through the ice again and pulled the body back out of the water and undressed her. - Oh, my God. - Yes. So they think he probably also sexually assaulted a fucking weak old corpse as well. - Unbelievable. - Which is some Ted Bundy shit here. They said, why did you pull her back out of the water? And he said that he wanted to see what the body looked like. - Jesus, he's dangerous. - He said he took his knife and cut off her clothes at that point, after all of it. And then pushed her back into the water. - Oh, my God, man. - Then he said, quote, I'm glad you caught me because I would have done it again. - We know. - We know. - Yeah. - You've done this shit forever. - You're so dangerous. - He said, all I hope is that they put me away for life. - I hope so, I hope so too. - Me too. He said he had an uncontrollable urge to kill and he said that, you know, both the women are just women he saw on the street. That was it. He saw Edith on the street, followed her to her house. - Yeah. - And the car saw her drive by and he said, Nancy, I just saw her there and popped in her car. - How is that gene more popular than this man? - That's what I mean. How do people not know who this is? And it gets crazier, by the way. The next, the end of this episode's wild. So he would sometimes be like weird and cold and calculating and show no emotions. And another times he'd be hysterically crying while he told these stories. So the cops just said, they said, after he was done, he sat there silently and without moving for a period of about five hours. He just sat there catatonic. He got it all out and then just sat there like he's been drained of everything. So the fucked up part is he had been questioned in the disappearance of Nancy Vernier. He was questioned and talked his way out of it. - Wow. - They questioned a ton of people, he was one of them. So throughout the night there, several times, he said, thank God they caught me. Thank God they caught me. He kept saying it over and over again, which is wild. He spends the next day down at the reservoir with the police, reenacting the crime, showing them where everything happened. Then I walked her here, then we went here doing all of that. So it's one thing for someone to confess to something, but whenever I see people in these confession videos, acting it out, I'm like, oh, you're fucked. - That's disturbing. - You can't say, oh, I didn't do it, you acted it out. It looks, even if you made it up, it looks way more. - Yeah, yeah, your defense and trial is gonna be real tough now. - Yeah, when the jury looks at a video of you going, then it was like this, you know, like up and just like really hacking away at like, that looks bad, they can see you doing it that way. - And they always, it seems like, I don't think I've ever seen it not happen, but every time they do the motion in which the person died, like you can stab in all kinds of different directions and wait, but when they show how they did it, it's like really fucked up, especially when the corner goes and that stab motion is exactly what that body sustained. - That's the wound that they had. So the Massachusetts cops say they will file fugitive from justice warrants for not, NOTT is his name, by the way, like that, which will enable them to arrest him immediately for the killing of Edith Martin, if he should be released in connection with this for any reason. - Oh, so we're not gonna charge them until this thing is settled. - No, so now they have more questions. Newport, Rhode Island police also question him in the slaying of Daisy Hopwood, who's 60 years old and whose body was found in November 19th. He was also interrogated by Providence police about the unsolved death of Stephanie Stillwell, a college student who was found stabbed 15 times in a wooded area on February 28th, 1961. - Oh, no. - Which is, yeah, that's crazy. - That's not 15 year old kid, man. - That's what I mean. This motherfucker is dangerous. - The most. - He's real dangerous. I think he only killed the two 'cause he came out with them without even being asked. So who knows, unless he was embarrassed of other ones. So the Hilton guy, the cop, said that he said that this kid has undergone psychiatric treatment and he said that this kid doesn't wanna talk too much about it, but still seems to wanna get it off his chest. He breaks up every once in a while and cries and shakes his head to be told the police. So January 29th, 1963 here, he is going to be taken to like family court 'cause they're gonna see if they can try him as an adult. And they, after some delay, they finally decide that yes, they can try him as an adult care. So he enters a plea of not guilty, which is interesting. They enter innocent and innocent by reason of insanity. They both, they enter. 'Cause he has been put in an institution for a while here. They said that he's been given psychiatric tests to see if he's fit to stand trial. He ends up being sent to a mental hospital at this point to an institution. He is declared a mentally ill, schizophrenic, and admitted to the criminally insane ward at the Rhode Island Medical Center in Cranston, Rhode Island. - Yeah. - Until he's fit to stand trial, which isn't until 1966. (sighs) So he goes to trial for Nancy. And it's a jury of seven men, five women, surprised any women were on the jury back then. Keep the skirts out of here. They're not just, they're just gonna feel bad for him and let him go. So. - If we have a few women on, they can keep the drinks full for everybody. - That would help, get like one or two just to make sandwiches, you know what I mean? Surprised that wasn't how it went. So the trial justice here found that all of the incriminatory statements, all the inculpatory shit, is attributed to him were voluntarily and spontaneously made at a time when he was not under custodial interrogation as a suspect in the front of your case. - Oh. - So they're saying the other shit he said when they questioned him for that has nothing to do with this case, he just blurted this shit out. - Right. - So they're saying whether he, they rule whether he was Mirandaized or not, it's fine. - Yeah, it doesn't matter. - It's in there. So that's not good. The detectives all testify, by the way, that three detectives testify that he was told of his constitutional rights to obtain a lawyer or to remain silent and then confessed also. Which that's, I don't know what they're testifying to 'cause there's no question that he wasn't right as rights. I mean, that's like a thing. So March 3rd, 1966 is the verdict on this. And the headline is K-N-O-T-T guilty, which is funny. - 'Cause that's not how his name's spelled. - No, it is K-N-O-T-T. - Oh, I thought he said it was just N-O-T-T. - No, no, no, K-N-O-T-T. I'm sorry, I thought you asked that. K-N-O-T-T, yeah, done not, it's exactly. So not guilty is the thing, but he is guilty. 'Cause he's found guilty as fuck. - A lot of people in the society looking on, is he or is he not? - Is he not, what do I know? - I guess we gotta read. So he, the jury deliberated for 12 hours and he's given seven days to appeal before his sentencing comes and he appealed, doesn't happen. You, sir, may fuck off life in prison. - 'Kay, so we got it. - So that's what he got. Okay, 1967 in July, that's when all the shit comes up, the Supreme Court ruled that the state family court failed to give sufficient legal reasons for waiving jurisdiction over him in his hearing in 1963. For why, they didn't give good enough reasons for why he was being tried as an adult. - Okay. - That's something, then it goes to the state Supreme Court in 1969 and they set aside the conviction and life sentence, ruling that a confession should not, or should have been excluded in the trial because of a lack of evidence that police told him he had a right to remain silenced. They say they're not sure he got his rights read. So, okay, his conviction is set aside. That's not good, but no. He's still got the Massachusetts one sitting over there. - We're trying there, yeah. - Extra item to Massachusetts in June of 1969. Well, if you're done with him, we'll take him in the Edith Martin murder. On October 28th, 1969, the charges are dropped. - Why? - 'Cause the judge granted a defense motion to suppress the confession and then they had nothing else. So. - Oh no. - Yep, because knives, it's really hard to get fingerprints off of knife blades that have been used in stabbings. They get washed, they get smeared with the blood. - And off the handle, not sure. - Off the handle. So, off the handle, that's what I meant, the handle. So, this case is dropped. So, by January 1970, he's still sitting in prison in Rhode Island, he petitions to get let out. - Yeah, I've got no charges. - Yeah, he said, what the fuck, man? He said, get me out of here. I'm here, I'm not convicted of anything, but the assistant attorney general opposed the release saying that the state will be ready to try him again in a matter of months. So, let's hang on to him. So, they do, they try him again in April of 1970 and he has found guilty of murder in the first degree. - Okay. - Yes, again. So, both, by the way, all of his statements were again admitted into evidence. The statements that got the case thrown out to begin with are let in again. So, that's not gonna end well for him. February 6th, 1974, he and two other inmates break out of prison. - Oh, okay. Well, we don't want to escape now. - This is the last guy you want, fucking. - Yeah, I don't want to think I just, willy-nilly, unwatched. - Oh, it's him, Lucian Page, a 60-year-old who are both serving life sentences for murder and Gerald Kelly, a 27-year-old who's serving a three-year sentence for possession of burglary tools. What the fuck are you doing? - Just do your time. They break out, they steal three 38-caliber revolvers and ammunition out of the barracks there at the jail. Then they steal one of the prison guard's cars. - Where are they gonna go? - And they also stole $100 in cash. I need $100 cash. - That'll get us for the rest of our lives. - Rest to everything. We'll get to Mexico from the Deputy Wardens' desk. That's wild. - Another guy, by the way, the murderer that he's with was, Lucian was convicted of a 1960 hammer murder of a schoolteacher. - Good Christ. - He beat a woman to a woman schoolteacher to death with a hammer. - Oh my God, these are dangerous people. - These are, yeah. - A robbery tool is the guy that had a screwdriver. - Yeah, he's like, fuck. Why am I with you two murdering Fox? This is crazy. So the wardens said that the three pulled a handgun on a lieutenant, a lieutenant-albert gardener, about 1 a.m. in their open dormitory room and took his car keys. So they said another guard came upon the scene. It was also confronted by the handgun, which was held by Lucian Page. Both guards were locked in an adjacent room and they said the escapees broke into a locked closet in the front hall of the minimum security building and stole 338 caliber revolvers. - We've got murderers in minimum security, perfect. Why are they in there? They shouldn't be anywhere near minimum here. So they said they're still searching. It's a 1974 Hornet with Rhode Island registration BA 109. - Dodge Hornet. - Oh, Hornet, he's driving, I haven't heard a Hornet in a long time. - It's a bad car. It's a bulky car. - Yeah, the wardens said the car had enough gas to go about 175 miles. - It's got a longevity of honor. - It can go, it's got a range. Neither guard was injured and they were released by other prisoners once everybody had fled. So once the three had fled. The other prisoners were like, "We're not gonna escape to, we're not." Yeah, I guess Page had an unsupervised job driving a tractor on the prison grounds and could have smuggled in the handgun to be able to steal the other handguns. All three escapees had limited privileges and could have just easily walked away from the prison anytime. They all had, they didn't have to do this. - Oh my God. - All of them at any point could have walked away from their job and just took off. So there's politicians calling other people incompetent. It's fucking the mayor. The Cranston mayor calls for the ouster of the state corrections director as a result of this here, which is pretty interesting. They say the incompetence of the Noel administration. He questioned why two convicted murderers would be kept in the minimum security section under no supervision. Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty interested in that too. Now, one of the people, Lucian Page, the 60 year old, they're gonna end up finding him first in Boston because he blew his fucking brains out. - Really? - He committed suicide while he was being chased by the cops. - Way to go, Lou. - Yep, he went out. He's like, "I'm not going back. I will not go back to prison." Then February 14th, 1974, Gerald Kelly, burglary tool guy, is caught in Salt Lake City, Utah. - Really? - Yeah, that's a lot farther than 175 miles. - Even eight. - Yeah, so he is-- - He didn't go in that hornet, I'm sure, right? - No, I don't think so. He was, I guess he was arrested while hitchhiking outside Salt Lake City. (laughing) - That hornet was a piece of shit car. It probably broke down the way. - I'm sure it happened. - Before the gas ran out. And I think it was made by AMC. That's a bad car. - They found it in Boston on the next day. They found it-- - It broke down. - Yeah, in a Boston parking lot somewhere. - They parked it, that was it. They were like, "Ah, get some antifreeze, fuck this thing." This car sucks. The car yielded no clues to the whereabouts and was returned to the prison guard. Finally, February 21st, 1974, Tommy Dicknock gets caught. - Oh, where? - He is in New Orleans. - I was just gonna guess that. (laughing) - He's in fucking New Orleans. - Yeah. - And he's, they only find him 'cause he's arrested in New Orleans on an armed robbery charge. - Robin shit in New Orleans? - Yeah, if I give you, you might have guessed New Orleans. I'll give you a thousand guesses. You'll never guess what the fuck he was robbing. - Not a bourbon street bar, huh? - Nope, nope. He robbed a lingerie store, is what he was trying to rob. - He's, for the money or for the product? - A little of both, really? - And I'll take this to jerk off to. - Yep. He held up the lingerie shop with one of the guns taken from the prison. - Still had it. - The cop down there said, quote, about the guy at the lingerie shop. This guy was the real victim of Mardi Gras. I don't know what that means. - What the fuck are you talking about, man? - Oh no, he means the he means the gunman here. He means our guy, Tommy Dicknott. He said, this guy was really the victim of Mardi Gras. We had some patrolmen on parade. - Oh. - Do you happen to be in the neighborhood when the robbery occurred? - We hyped up security presence and we got him. - He ran out with a gun and a bag of money and the cops were like, "Hey, stop right there." Aren't you a murderer? So he's being held in New Orleans on a $200,000 bond, which is huge back then, charged with two counts of armed robbery. The district attorney said down there said, I mean, Rhode Island could have him back if they want an extra item, but if they want to just give him to us, armed robbery charges down here. It says in Louisiana, armed robbery carries a maximum penalty of 99 years in prison with no chance of parole. - 99 to life, that's where that comes from. - Yeah. - No chance of parole, but they end up bringing him back there. In a related development, by the way, the state police have to do a huge investigation because while they were looking for one of the people that escaped, they beat the shit out of two people while questioning them about it. - What? - Yeah, they beat up a 19-year-old named John and a 27-year-old named Joseph who were brothers. Their mother made the complaint and they said, I guess they thought that they knew that they were-- - One of his friends or something. - They beat them, I don't know, they beat them. It's very weird. So they said he goes back to court and they said that he alleges that he is now imprisoned, restrained of his liberty and detained under the color of authority of the state of Rhode Island and the custody of the warden of Rhode Island correctional institutions and that this imprisonment is under the claim and authority of a judgment of the superior court. And he said it shouldn't be that way. He says this imprisonment is illegal and in violation of his rights secured by the Constitution and that his confessions that he's again convicted on have him admitting all this shit. Anyway, they said that he was in a catatonic state that night. He's going all the way back to that. They said in a Supreme Court, state Supreme Court said, I find and conclude that the petitioner was not deprived of his constitutional rights during the retrial and that he's not being unlawfully detained. They already released him once because of this claim. Then they used the same exact statements in the second trial and now it's fine. - And now it's everything's okay. - It's enough to make you go crazy, honestly. - He's a bad enough guy. - Oh, he's bad. - You don't even feel bad for him, but for the precedent that it sets, it fucks things up. - We could always give him to Louisiana. - Yeah, I mean, and Harry Connick's dad's there. He'll murder him tomorrow. - Yeah, he'll just hit him with his car, probably just run him over a couple of times. Leave him out in the street, I'll get him. Don't worry about it, my shift ends at six. - Harry Connick's dad is prolific for being more or less a murderer. - So many people killed down there. - That's a bad man. - So Tommy Dicknot must have lost his fucking mind 'cause on July 1st, 1975, he kills himself in prison. Done. - So it doesn't matter. - 30 years old, that is a fucking doorknail. - Wow. - 29, whatever. That is shit in a Rhode Island state prison. Lost it, couldn't take it anymore. Killed himself. - I mean, thank God that he finally did it for us because Jesus Christ, he's so dangerous, and he's right. - He's so dangerous, yes. - And that's so scary. - He's absolutely right. That's the fucking up part. - He could have skated in one and holy fuck. - We're lucky he was robbing lingerie stores, that would have been something to put him in of. Otherwise, no fuckers. - That doesn't know what he got hurt down there. - Dude, imagine how dangerous this guy is. Someone who will dig up, who will fucking pull a woman out of the ice to cut her clothes off. - And probably do worse, yeah. - Probably do worse and then stuff her back in. He's a sick fuck, man. - No kidding. - And these are brutal attacks. He stabbed her cross repeatedly like this. - And had an MO that was like, he tried several times and he was gonna do this a lot. - He's Ted Bundy without the charm offensive. - Yeah. - Ted Bundy would, half of his thing was getting you to go with him voluntarily. He liked that. He thought that was, I think that was part of his game. Whereas this guy didn't have that game yet 'cause he's 17 years old, it's 15, 16, especially with an older woman. So he's just gotta do it this way, which is sick. - Had a lesson, Bundy, a baby Bundy. - Baby Bundy, man, that is disturbing shit. So there you go everybody, there's Rhode Island. East Providence, Rhode Island. It's a little bit safer. That's a crazy, I mean, I don't care how old it is. - Unbelievable. - It's a fucking story. - It's because we didn't get justice on him. That's the only reason it's not near as bad as anything else. He got his own justice. It's still, it's worse. It's so scary. - It's terrifying shit. So if you like the story and you're terrified too, leave us a review on whatever app you're listening on. It really helps a lot to do that. Also follow us on social media. We are @smalltownmurder on Instagram @murdersmall on Twitter @smalltownpot on Facebook. You also want to definitely head over to shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets for live shows. - Oh, let's party in many hours. - Oh, we're gonna party. September 20th, the state theater, it's big and beautiful and we're gonna have a great time befouling it with dick jokes. Come on out and join us. We can't wait. Make it our biggest show ever. If you sell it out, you'll beat Chicago and it'll be our biggest show ever. So that's good. 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