(upbeat music) - Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you a little bit more about one of our favorite things ever, audible. - Oh, audible.com or that app. - The app is great in a mommy app, constantly listening to audible helps your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre really that you like, you can listen to and you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, even new ways of thinking. This can unlock a lot for you. Audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as part of your daily routine. You don't need to even set extra time aside. That's what's great. There's more to imagine when you listen. And I'll tell you something that has set both Jimmy and I's imagination soaring and that is the Lewis and Clark journals. We're both really into these right now. - Unbelievable. - And as an audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog including the latest bestsellers, the newest releases. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com/smalltownmurder or text smalltownmurder to 500, 500. That's audible.com/smalltownmurder or text smalltownmurder to 500, 500. Now back to the show. - Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Angie. - Ohangie.com, A-N-G-I.com. - Absolutely Angie, good stuff. Angie's list is now Angie, the nation's largest home services marketplace and they're here to help homeowners get all their jobs done well. - Right. - Angie, yes, they've helped over 150 million homeowners care for their homes. Whenever the project, big small indoor outdoor come to Angie, you understand, we both own homes and projects are difficult. So. - And they pile up. - They pile up and Angie makes tackling the project simple from start to finish. Get started on the app or you can go to Angie.com. That is A-N-G-I.com. Get your job done well with Angie today. - And now back to the show. - If you're a new parent, a bad day means you either run out of coffee, diapers, patience or all of the above. Stocking up on cold brew and deep breaths are all you. But at least Hello Bellows got your baby's butt covered. Hello Bellows believes all families deserve premium, affordable baby products, named Best Diaper Subscription by New York Magazine and winner of the 2022 Good House Keeping Parenting Award. Hello Bellows will keep you well stocked on dipes and wipes. Go to hellobellows.com/wondry to get 30% off your first customized bundle and a full-size freebie product of your choice. That's hellobellows.com/wondry to start bundling with 30% off your first order. Don't forget that's hellobellows.com/wondry. - This week in Ontario, Oregon, a man with a very strange background starts to do more and more violent things. Until one day the whole thing comes crashing down in a murderous romp that leaves people saying, he must be crazy. Welcome to Small Town Murder. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder. - Yay! - Oh yay indeed Jimmy, yay indeed. My name is James Petrogalo, I'm here with my co-host. - I'm Jimmy Wissman. - Thank you folks so much for joining us today and another, we've been on a wild run lately if you've been listening obviously and this is gonna be no change 'cause this is one of those cool narrative stories too where you get to actually kind of be a part of the thing as it happens and it's a wild story. You can't wait to tell it. We will do that for you in just a minute but before we get to that, head over to shutup and givememurder.com what's there, merch is there. Number one, also tickets to live shows. Come to a live show. If you've never been to a live show and you're wondering about it, you're on the fence. Let me tell you, it's a comedy show. It's not a lecture about a murder. It's, we have fun, we have pictures that are funny in with the stuff and we make jokes and the whole thing, it's a comedy show. It's a two hour comedy show. It's gonna be a blast. Definitely get your tickets for Minneapolis, September the 20th, that's our next show. Gonna be our biggest show ever if you sell this out guys. So let's do it and then we're gonna be at the paps in Milwaukee the next night but that is just about sold out. There's a few tickets left, get in there if you want them. Also, Oklahoma City, Kansas City, we added more tickets there so now they're available. And also Austin, Boston, New York. It's gonna be great. There you go, do that, shut up and give me murder.com. You also definitely want Patreon. Patreon.com/crimeinsports is where you get all of the bonus material, anybody $5 a month or above. You're gonna get a whole big giant back catalog full of stuff, hundreds of episodes immediately. New ones every other week, one crime in sports, one small town murder and you get it all, baby. So this week what we have for crime in sports which you'll have access to, we're gonna talk about nothing that has to do with sports. It is just industrial disasters. Yes, it's a steel factory just melts down and everyone is instantly incinerated, stuff like that. It's gonna be wild. Then for small town murder, we're gonna talk about the cannibal cop, if you remember him from a while back the New York City cop who said he wanted to eat women. And it was a weird thing of can you fire somebody for saying they want to eat women? Is that artistic? Is it something to worry about? Should he be at foot in jail? Who knows? We'll talk all about it. That's patreon, P-A-T-R-E-O-N dot com slash crime in sports. So that said disclaimer time. Oh, before we do that, listen to your stupid opinions by the way, check it out, also crime in sports too but you figure you knew about that already but check out your stupid opinions. You will not be sorry, it's hilarious. Disclaimer, this is a comedy show. It is, yeah. We're comedians, we're gonna make jokes. That's what's gonna happen here. At the same time, people are gonna die. Now, the thing is not to mix those things together while they're happening. There's nothing funny about someone getting their head chopped off. We don't go, that's hilarious. The blood was squirt. There's nothing funny about that but the funny thing is a guy going, I think I can cut someone's head off and get away with it. No, you can't. That's hilarious. I think I can hire a hit man for $400 and they'll do a great job. No, that's not a good idea. That's hilarious. So, things of that nature and small towns that we roast 'cause we're all from a small town where we do in here. Hell, that stuff. So, that said, I think it's a good time. What we don't do though, what we never do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Well, why is that, James? Because we're assholes, but. But we're not scumbags. That's how that goes. No, that's the deal. That's how it works. So, if that sounds good to you, you're gonna hear a wild story. If you think true crime and comedy should never go together ever, you might not like it but you might. - Yeah. - So, you know, no bitching afterwards either way. That's sad, I think it's time. I think it's time to do this. Let's take a deep breath everybody. And let's all shout. ♪ Shout out and give me murder ♪ Let's do this everybody. - Okay. - Let's go on a trip, shall we? - Let's go. - We're moving, we're going to Oregon here this week. We are in Ontario, Oregon. Ontario, of course, like the Canadian Ontario. 'Cause yeah, they're both I think named after Canada though. I know this one is specifically. This is very far Eastern Oregon. It's on the Idaho border. - No. - So, this isn't like, you know, Portland, you think of like, you know, not that, not that Oregon. - It's a fascinating group of folks. - Think of, think less lesbian coffee shop, more militia. It's that we're in different areas here. So, this is- - These are the people that want to move the border. This is wild. - Yes, yes, they want to be Idaho. Please make me, yeah. They want to be a part of Idaho, which if everyone else in the country's going, what the hell anybody want to be a part of Idaho? Exactly. That's what we're laughing at. So, see when I said we're going to roast shit. That's what I'm talking about. - That's what it is, yeah. - Don't get pissy. This is fun. - Calm down. - So, this is 50 minutes to Boise. So, it's right there. - Oh, it's real close, yeah. - Less than an hour to Boise. Five hours and 45 minutes to Portland. So, nowhere near Portland. And it's about six hours and 15 minutes to Colton, Oregon, our last Oregon episode, which was 454 and it was called as crazy as crazy does. - It does. - The Oregon people always, there's always serious crazy involved with these people. I don't mean like, oh, they did some crazy shit. I mean, that guy is fucked up in the head. That stuff. This is in Mallor County, which is spelled M-A-L-H-E-U-R. So, I was real worried about that pronunciation. I looked it up and it's just Mallor, like, okay. Yeah, if it was M-A-L-R, if it was M-A-L-E-R, it would have been Mallor or some shit. It wouldn't have been, and I would have got bitch that for how I pronounced it. So, the motto here is where Oregon begins. - Yeah, it is, yeah. - It's right on the border, so, yeah. History, that's it. It was founded in June of 1883. So, anniversary here, by a guy named Bill Morfit, Mary Richardson, Daniel Smith, and James Virtue. They all showed up, and they were developers. They were like, we can make, yeah, they weren't. They weren't even like, oh, I want to put up a house and raise my kids. They were like, mmm, we can make money here. Yeah, so then in March, 1984, a guy named Richard Welch, so Dick Welch, started a post office for this area, and they named it after Ontario, Canada. Then two months later, another guy applied for a post office, a guy named James Morton, he applied for a post office in the same area and wanted to call it Morton, because his name is Morton, so he's like, yeah. And that was about a mile away. Yeah, he's like, no, after me. So, unfortunately, though, that for them, there was some, there's a gold miner here. James Virtue was a gold miner and a lumberman, and he apparently just bought a shitload more land and said, that a boy. Now, who's post office counts for more? Now, I found some nuggets. Got that shit. So, yeah, everybody knew the railroad was coming, so this became like people wanted to move here. By the time World War II came around, this became a place for displaced Japanese people to go. Oh, Japanese Americans would settle here because people didn't want them on the west coast. You know what I mean? On the coast. So, they were like, well, you can move them inland, is what they said here. And the mayor, Elmo Smith, said, yeah, Elmo, Elmo Smith, the mayor, he said, he said, no, he did. I would love to hear Elmo say this, by the way. This is what I want to hear in Elmo's book. Elmo says, if the Japs, both alien and nationals are a menace to Pacific coast of safety unless they're moved inland, it appears down right cowardly to take any other stand and then to put them out the call, send them along. Bring me your Japs. Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. Okay, that, there was about 134 Japanese people, or about 134 people total in the city. And then they got to recruit workers during the war for farms and shit, and then it got up to 1,000 people. So, reviews of this town. Let's find out what other people think, 'cause we've never been here. We didn't even know how to pronounce the county. - Yeah, right. - Five stars. Yeah, we didn't know anything about that. Five stars, I have grown up in Ontario my entire life. All right, I personally enjoy smaller rural towns rather than larger cities. Well, you're in the right place then, I think. So, Ontario has been a comfortable place to live. It's a quieter place that feels like home. Whenever I find myself wanting a change of scenery, Boise, Idaho is a relatively short drive away, or there are plenty of areas within an hour or two for camping, hiking, fishing, et cetera. People generally keep to themselves, but are willing to be respectful and provide help to one another. They're willing to. - Like in those other places, we're completely unwilling. - If you really twist their arm, they'll be respectful, but otherwise, I mean, they're willing, and I'm not saying they want it, but willing, if possible. Three stars, if I were to change some things, I would plant more trees. That's, you don't hear that a lot in Oregon. - Yeah? - Or encourage homeowners and business owners to take more pride in what their yards look like. There you go, Jimmy. When we first got together today, Jimmy, I walk in and Jimmy is watching yard cleanup videos. (laughing) So when I said that, his eyes just perked up like, "Oh yeah, you should clean your yard up." - Can you tell him on the HOA board? - Jesus Christ. There is quite a bit of trash and litter. Oh, that wouldn't go well at the next meeting. - Oh, no, sir. - You'd be voting thumbs down on that, wouldn't you? (laughing) - Don't check your mailbox, friend. - Oh boy, around town. And most people don't have nice things to say about the town. I found a stranger in my backyard at 1 a.m. - What? - 'Cause that's a totally different problem. (laughing) - Fuck the weeds, why is he back there? - Why is that not your lead? Hey, watch out for people in your yards. - Yeah. - I like-- - Random strangers in your backyard. - I like how they didn't say I found a person. I found a stranger, which makes it sound like they're seven years old, which is hilarious. - I found somebody about to break into my house. That's what you found. - That's what that's called. I found an attempted burglar in my backyard. And I always make sure to lock my doors, windows and vehicles. - Sounds great. - Sounds wonderful. (laughing) Wow. - Liver and weeds and-- - Strangers. - People watering in your yard. - Strangers, three stars, not the best, but also not the worst. - Right. - That's three stars. Actually, accurate rating. Good job, sir, ma'am. Two stars here. I've lived in Ontario, Oregon for all of my life, and I've seen the crime rated go up, the crime rated. Which, this sounds like whatever, but when we get to the crime rate in this town, it is shocking. It's shocking what's going on over here. Yeah. The prison has made it worse for people to live here. No shit. - That'll do it. Yeah. - That'll do it 'cause that makes the, you know, the main source of jobs, kind of mediocre paying jobs where literally you spend a third of your life in prison. That's a terrible, it's not good. - Yeah. - And a lot of people, a lot of people that are in prison, their families will move closer to the prison so they can visit you. And oftentimes I don't wanna be. Well, a lot of times it comes from trash families when you're. - There it is. - Yeah. - A lot of times criminals have criminal families. - When they go there, they're like, well, three of our sons are in the same prison, so we should probably move closer. - It's gonna be close. - It's visiting day is difficult for us, it really is. They go on to say they have closed the local swimming pool to update it and haven't stated it, and haven't stated it, it's, oh, it's been, I guess, they're trying to say, haven't stated. It's been four years now. So they just, they closed your pool. That's what that is. - It's fixing it. - Yeah, it does not take four years to update a swimming pool ever. - No, it takes maybe one tops to build it from scratch. - From scratch, and that's in the Arizona ground that you have to like blast out. This is just dirt you can shovel up there. - Great. - People in this town, 11,465 is the population. - Small, yeah. - Way more females than males, actually. It's 52 1/2%, so that's way out of whack of the normal. Meeting age is a little lower than normal, it's about 34 here. Otherwise, a lot of people are married or single with children. That's a big thing, single with children. Race of this town, it is a 52.7% white, 0.4% black, 2% Asian, and 42.8% Hispanic. It's tons of farming in the area. And that's, yeah, people come to here to farm. And then religion in this town, 58% religious, which is way more than normal. And the most here are, it's gonna be-- - Mormon. - No. - Oh! - Catholic. - Is that right? - Yeah, yeah, Spanish, AKA, yeah, it's a Catholic. - Oh, yeah, yeah, that'll do it, yeah. - So Catholic is 25.7%. I was shocked too, on the Idaho border, you expect-- - Yeah. - Second place is Mormons, don't worry. - Yeah. - There you go. - But the Spanish community, really the Mormons-- - Oh, they're trying to get them. - Yeah, they're trying to get them. - Their families are big and they love that. - Exactly what they're like. They're like, these people fuck, okay? - Yes. - They get married and they fuck. (laughing) - Have a chill. - Showing them cousins, there's lots. Let's get them. - Round them up. - It's a lot of timing. - A lot of timing, Ontario's unemployment rates about the rest of the country, it's about average. A median household income here, low though, $42,568 a year, it's about $70,000 in the rest of the country. So that's pretty low. Cost of living, also low-ish, 100 is regular here, it's 80, so on the scale. The median home cost here, $278,400, which is hard on 42 grand for household. So that's a tough one. So if we've convinced you, dammit, you're going to Ontario, Oregon. You're like, I've heard a lot about Oregon, but not about the Idaho border region. I'm going here, we have for you the Ontario, Oregon real estate report. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Found, here we go. This first one is a trailer, let's say. It's a two bedroom, one bath, 924 square foot trailer. But it's one of those trailers that's in a trailer park that they, these trailers aren't going anywhere. Like they have the corrugated steel on the bottom and they're painted the same color as the house and like, no one's moving, these are permanent settlements. It's inside, not as bad as it looks on the outside. Inside is actually not terrible. - The manufactured home market, it's gone, it's fantastic, they're really doing good things for the inside of these. - Oh no, this is old. Somebody just puts a laminate flooring down. Yeah, this isn't a new, like, they didn't bring it in and go, ta-da, this is. - Yeah, all right. - Some of them are like, let's cover up that yellow linoleum, shall we? I'll put some laminate down. But they've done their best in there, not bad. $39,000 for this though. I mean, if you need a place to live. - Rayler? - That I don't know, but I'm sure that's what it is. You probably pay the lot fee or whatever the fuck it is. But still, if you need a place to stay, you just can't move it anywhere, really. Next up, one bedroom, one bath. It's a tea bowl for each and every be-hole. Just one be-hole though. - The one. - So the one, 848 square feet. It's a fucking dump. It looks like a shack where a family was murdered and then they let it go to rock, basically. It's crammed in between two very much nicer houses. - Really? - But they're like on top of it on either side. It's terrible. - Like the house. - Yeah, it's kind of what it is, yeah. And it's but worse though, if the old man was running a meth house there, then yes. - He didn't take care of it anymore. - The up a meth house, yeah. - He quit taking care of it when that old lady died. - Fuck it. No, tell everyone they can smoke crack in my living room. I don't even care anymore. - Shit. - I don't care, Eddie, my heart pocket. - The v listing says unlock the potential of this 1930s fixer upper. So they use the word potential and fixer upper in the first fucking sentence. - That tells you. - With an after repair value. And then in parentheses, ARV. Like that's an actual stack. The after repair value. ARV, like that's an industry term. The fuck out of here with that? - First time I've heard that acronym. - Never heard it before. They just have it like, you know, the ARV of $210,000. They're saying. - Sure. - This property offers an excellent opportunity. There you go. For those with a keen eye for investment. So there's a lot of hedging words there. It's a general. - It's a sweat equity somewhere in there. - Yeah, exactly. Someone was willing to put in some sweat equity. It's $89,000. Just reduced $10,000, too. - You can double your money, guys. - Yep, recent price cut. The ARV, that is my favorite thing in the world. No, real estate people. - Don't do that. - Here's a four bedroom, three bath, 2906 square foot, very nice little house. It's a little outdated inside and stuff, but it's nice. You'd look at it and go, what, that's a nice house. - What a place. - Nice family house, clean, nice 430 grand for that. - Oh boy. - So you're gonna pay for it if you don't want to have a piece of shit. - Almost Boise. - Almost Boise, yeah. Things to do in this town. We got a couple of things. First up is America's Global Village Festival. - Okay. - All right. This is, well, it celebrates Ontario's diversity through food, dance, music, education, and games. The tents representing various cultural communities offer cultural cuisine. It's like a mini-epcot center. It sounds like-- - Yeah. - And teach about their history and heritage. You go from thing to thing. All right, what do you got? What are you people all about? - America's global. I mean, come on. - That's boring. Moving on to the Samoan tent. Fuck you. At the center of the village, Scottish clans participate in the Highland games. Okay, so that's what we're talking about. In the center village, guys' balls are gonna be swinging free out of their kilts. Well, they huck battle axes at each other. Awesome. - Right. - Oh man. Also, an event stage holds special performances of music and dance throughout the day. - Okay, it's a very, I get it. - I mean, yeah. - It's educational and shit, but-- - Sounds boring as well. - I'm not trying to get drunk. I'm not trying to worry. - I haven't, I didn't hear booze or beer or-- - I didn't hear anything about Native American tacos. - Yeah. - Those are so good. - Is there a 4.20 tent I can get at there? Tell me about your culture. - It's Oregon, come on. - Tell me about your culture. Next up is the Mallor, or Mallor County Fair. And that's got a fair. Let's see what's there. There's a lot of bands there. At 8 p.m. on the Tuesday night, it kicks off. Everybody knows 8 p.m. Tuesday is the prime gig that you want. - That's your show, yeah. - That is the wrench monkeys will be there. - Yeah. - They'll be fixing a 72 Plymouth, I think, actually, but they'll be there, though. - You can catch us all at 8 a.m. at Jiffy Lube, or you can see us here tonight. - Either way. Well, they've been, they've been posturing the fuck out of the Jiffy Lube. There's a flyer in the hell out of that thing. Wednesday, the wrench monkeys are playing again. - Oh my God. - There's also county team roping as well. So get your team together, rope up. On Thursday, all day long, Magic Man Brad is gonna be walking around. - Oh, show him what it is, Brad. - Nothing. I love more than a roving magician. - That's my card. - That's terrific, Brad. He shows up, "Hey, ugh!" Go in a central location, and we'll come to you if we're interested. How about that? - Yes, Brad, 8 of clubs, thank you. - Imagine that, like a comedian, imagine as a comic. - Imagine we had to go somewhere and just walk up to people and be like, "Hey, let me tell you something about my wife." You know what I mean? - Let me tell you what I went to the mall last week. - Hey, one time I shit my pants. Wanna hear about it? No, I'm gonna tell you anyway. So anyway, I'm driving along. That's a terrible gig. There is a stick horse-- - All I saw was tail lights, so you know what I did. - You know what I was going there. Next up is Stick Horse Rodeo. Is that people on stick horses running around? - Oh, yes it is. - Yes, okay. That is disturbing. Two to three p.m. Magic Man Brad. Now he's gonna be roaming all day, but at two to three p.m. he's gonna hit the stage. Really show you what he's all about. Then wander back into the crowd, like most people do. At three p.m. is the most disgusting thing I've ever heard of in my life. A milk chugging contest. - Oh god, that's just vomit, isn't it? - This is in the beginning of August as well, too. So it's hot out. - Let's all chug milk. I'm disgusted right now. That's horrifying. - You can only chug so much. So I guess it's a speed thing of like a certain amount, right? 'Cause you can't. - Or is it a contest to see who takes the longest to throw up afterwards? Like they follow you around for a while. - Who chugs the hardest the long? I don't know man. - Without a projectile vomit to milk. - I think it should just be a pint and who can get it the fastest, right? - That would, I guess, that's still disgusting though. No, I'm not doing that. - It's not me, yeah. Maybe like strawberry quick maybe, at least. - I don't know, somebody's gonna puke. - Well at 8 p.m., they better clean it all up 'cause the James Howard band is hitting the stage, so, watch out everybody. Then we have the Magic Man Brad again Friday all day. Corbin Maxie's gonna be on stage. Wonder what he plays. The Veggie Critter Decorating Contest. Okay, there's a watermelon flicking contest, apostrophe and apostrophe flicking. I think that's like pumpkin chunking things. No, I think they're catapulting watermelons maybe, I'm not sure. Then Jimmy River and the Grovers will hit the stage. You'll be grooving all night to that baby. - Yeah. - Next day, the Pretty Baby Contest will be there. - Don't like it. - That's creepy. Oh, that's a cute, what's weird. Junior Livestock Auction, the gem cloggers will hit the stage. - Okay, in the fog music. And then finally, 9 p.m. on the last night, I assume they're the headliners. Earn and burn is playing. - Earny and Bernie. - Earny and Bernie. - We're going by Earn and Burn. - E-A-R-N, like make money and fucking spend it. Like that. Earn and burn, earn and burn. But I bet their names are earning and burning. They just were like, "It'd be cool if you earn and burn." Like, you know, make my paycheck and blow it on booze and-- - Piss it away. - Yeah, that said crime, crime rate in this town, other than being a costed by fucking unwanted magic. - That brad there. - Maybe that's who was in that person's backyard. - That's possible. We don't fucking brad out there on these cards. - Get out of my yard. - All of the dark and shit. Please leave. No, but I have a pull on, pull this thing, stick it out of my sleeve, seriously. For the next 10 minutes, just keep pulling. - Is this your watch in my pocket? That's just theft now, man. - You're just stealing. We're not on the show. This is in my yard and it's late. And I'd like to go to bed now. Crime, are these your daughter's underwear in my pocket? Where'd you get those? Were you in her room? Oh my God, crime rate in this town, property crime, two and a half times the average. - Oh my God. - What is happening in this town, guys? Everybody, what the fuck? There's 11,000 people. Stop doing what you're doing. Get out of people's yards. - 11,000 people whose families are in the prison? - Five and a half thousand of them are apparently thieves. I don't know what's going on here. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course assault them out, rush more of crime, only slightly above the national average, but not too bad in the range of normal, whereas property crime is out there. So that said, holy shit, let's talk about a crazy, crazy story of some murder here. Wow, okay, we've set the table where we are. Let's talk about a man first without quite the background. It is, he's got an interesting story. He's got like either a superhero or super villain backstory. One of the two. Yeah, like this, he's got like a Batman backstory. It's fucking, it's weird, okay? His name is Anthony, goes by Tony. And hey, so Tony Wayne Montweiler, and that is M-O-N-T Wheeler. So Montweiler, he's born in November of 1967 here. I have to give a lot of credit to Rolling Stone did a great article on this whole thing. Really? Yeah, I brought a lot of connecting pieces that other places didn't have that was very helpful. So I gotta give them credit for that. So he's born in November 1967. His mother's name is Lenny L-I-N-N-I-E, Lenny Laverne Hendrix with an X. Oh, that sounds like a country singer, doesn't it? It's a rock star to do that. Lenny Laverne? Yeah, that sounds like, yeah. Lenny Hendrix shit, I'm listening. Lenny Laverne Hendrix, that is a rockin' like-- I'll find that album. Yeah, she opens for Johnny Cash back then. You know what I mean? Yeah, give a big hand for Lenny Laverne now, would you? (laughs) And doesn't, wow. So she's 21 when she gives birth to Anthony. His father at the time, Wayne is his father's name and to give him the middle name of Wayne. His father's 59 when he's born, 21, 59. And his father is not a rock star. He's not, you know, a famous fuckin' comedian or anything like that. He's not a movie star. He's not anything like that. He's just a dirtbag and a con man. He's not the front man of the red hot chili peppers? No, that's what I mean. None of that shit. They're not Leonardo DiCaprio. No, not the coach of the Patriots. None of that shit at all. Nope, 21, 59. Dirtbag, dirtbag. Wow. He also shall have another son. So Tony will have a brother named Monty. Monty Montwheeler is the guy's name. Get out. Monty Montwheeler. Are you, come on, people? Again, this is a fourth time today. We've said, come on, everybody, get it together. You gotta start thinking. Jesus Christ, man. So one family member described dad, Wayne, who's 59 at the time. 38 years between the two. Yes, 38 years. What the fuck? You have to be so wealthy to make that work. You just have to be such a famous, charismatic motherfucker to pull that off. You can't just be a regular guy. Yeah, it's not gonna work. And I don't care if it's legal. It's fucking weird, man. It's gross. Never mind, weird or legal, it's just gross. It's just gross. You fuck younger. Stop it. Stop acting like this is okay. You would fuck them at 16. You would. She touches his papery ball sack. God damn it, that's so weird. Yeah, 21, he'd be like, well, I mean, close enough. You're absolutely right. Absolutely. On the money. It's so fucking awful. So, Wayne, the father was born in Wisconsin. He's a brick mason. And one family member described him as, quote, a big fancy talker and a con man. Bullshit. Fancy talker. You know, a liar. Get out to be 59 to bang 21 year olds. You'd have to talk pretty fancy, I would think. (laughing) You know, what fancy is he talking? You'd say me. How fancy could you judge? Is he speak French? What's happening? I couldn't imagine. (upbeat music) Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about one of the safest sponsors you could ever see. Simply safe. Simplysafe.com. S-I-M-P-L-I-safe.com. Totally. 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You'd be like, "Oh, this is silly, you are a child, "we're not in the same, not that you're a child," but compared to, "I'm an old fart, so you're a child," but 59, that's way older than us, I couldn't imagine that, that's crazy. Yeah, that's, what is it, what is that? It's much older than me, it was existing. Older? Yeah, fuckin' yeah, that's a lot. Yeah, that's a fuckin' long time, so. Yeah, 43, I am way older than her, that's too much. Yeah, 22 years older than her, double her age, more than double her age, you can't more than double someone's age, that's where it's like, "Okay, this is weird, this is weird." So-- That was legal to drink and you were born, no. No, not at all, yeah, that's wrong. I can't do that, no. Yes, both of our significant others are 10 years younger than us, but we're a comedian, so that's different. We're, yeah, it's, I'm-- No, I'm just kidding. But surely 27, at best. We're children, that's the thing. In reality, they're much older than us, that's sad, but it's true. For sure, yeah. Anyway, Wayne is physically abusive, as you would be, I mean, you're already, just having sex with this girl feels like an abusive act, nevermind anything else, so. Yeah, oh my God, showing or anything on your body. Look at my balls, yeah, geez, that's a salt. That's a salt. Look at these moles. Come pick my balls up out the toilet water, would you, dear? That's not okay. Forget the genitals, I'm such, like, none of it looks new in it, you know what I mean? No, it all looks so old. He's got the really long gray hairs on his chest, that are like four feet long and real. Jesus. So he is, show signs of instability, like, at one point, he just took, he got angry, obviously, from the act here, and he took an axe and just chopped up all the family's furniture in the living room, just started going to town on the family furniture in the living room, that's interesting. Another time he went out in the garage or wherever and got cans of paint and just started fucking doing like the beginning of a living color back in the day, where they spin around with big cans and fucking, just spreading, throwing paint all over the house, just going, "How do you like that?" That's what he would do. - That's periwinkle blue. - Look at that now, well, part of it anyway. And 1974, they've been together for about seven years of marriage here, they've had a son and everything like that. Oh yeah, he's 60 fucking six years old at this point. Lenny is planning to leave him, you know, her late 20s, she's starting to get a different itch for things. - Starting to sober up maybe. - Yeah, doesn't want somebody who's been collecting social security for a few years now. And he didn't want to be left, Wayne. - Yeah. - So at one point, she was at a restaurant in Bend, Oregon, and he showed up in the parking lot and shot her in the chest with a 22 caliber handgun and killed her. Had an argument? Yeah, murdered the fuck out of this woman right there in the parking lot. - Wow. - Yep, they said this is from his cousin, Jim, said Wayne went back into the restaurant. He shot her, then went back into the restaurant and they said he would go outside every 10 minutes to see if she were dead. That's how he said it. - Oh boy. - He just, she dead yet? Nah, bitches still alive out there, pain in my ass, blah, blah, blah. The guy is not. - She's just bleeding in the parking lot, what's in the ash browns? - Bleeding out in the parking lot. Going and checking. So his father, Wayne, is convicted of manslaughter. - Yeah, huh? - Which is probably lucky for him because it seems like murder. - That's the best. - To show up somewhere with the intent of killing someone and doing it sounds a lot like murder to me. I don't know. - Sounds like it's a lot like premeditation too. - Seems like it. Yeah, to show up with the gun. He spent some time in prison and then ended up in the state mental hospital. He was too much for the prison to handle. - Oh, crazy too, yeah. - So they put him in the mental hospital and then in 1983 he died of a heart attack. - Wow, God bless him. - Go with God. - This is Tony's childhood life. - Dead man. - He's six years old, mom's dead. Dad's the town crazy who's been put in both, you know, prison than a mental institution and he never sees him again. So that's rough, man. That is a-- - It ain't easy. - That's a batman start to life. - Certainly, yeah, or worse. - Or a villain, or worse. That's, I mean, it's one or the other. You're either a superhero or a supervillain when this is your beginning here. He and his brother Monty embarrassed his shit by his last name and his name. They went to live with mom's older sister, Teresa, and her husband, Jimmy Ray Hilderbrand. Old Jimmy Ray, I love it. That family had three kids of their own and they lived on a dairy farm in Halfway, which was a town of about 300 people. - What the hell was that? - About halfway, I'd say, between there and there. It is in Oregon's Hell's Canyon Pass. So I saw something about halfway through the pass. Yeah, Hell's Canyon. Well, I was just like to live in a small town in Hell's Canyon. How far in? Not halfway. You know? So small town and they live, you know, it's kind of isolated on a dairy farm in this tiny place. In high school, Tony ends up really coming out of a shell in high school. - How so? - He becomes a three sport athlete. - And like-- - I had a boy. - Super popular and everybody likes him. And that's one of the things, if you're a boy that you can do, is if you're just really good at sports, all else falls into place for you socially in high school. Like-- - And a lot of, I mean, everything's the same out there. Rules don't change. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's uniform out there. We're on this team there on that. Everything, nothing, there's no variables. We just know what we're supposed to do. - And a guy like him might take to coaching because obviously dad was a lunatic and then gone. So a guy like him might look for-- - He needs a father figure and a short-- - Yeah, like some guidance and that sort of thing. So he's a three sport athlete. He also loves to fish and hunt because they're in the middle of nowhere there. His cousin, Jim, again, said quote, "He could build or weld anything." He said he once made a winning ice sculpture of Bart Simpson. He made Bart Simpson out of ice. - Yeah, you can weld all you want. But if you can carve in-- - Out of ice. - He's artistic. That's not fucking funny. - That's not fucking funny. - That's amazing, yeah. - Welding you can learn to do. I mean, if there's an art to it and so a lot of people are better at it than other people. - Of course, yeah. - But ice sculpting is a whole different thing. I can't, I can't. - Right. - I mean, I welded it, I have an ice sculpt. - You put two pieces of metal together and you drag the fucking electric thing down. It's not that hard. - Yeah. - Tell me how to make a sculpture out of a piece. You know, like that's nuts. - Yeah, by the way, there's however many welders are listening to the show right now are going, you fucking-- - That is not it. - Bullshit. I'll show you a fucking good weld and a bad weld. Look, we know, 'cause my dad's a big welder. So I get it. Like, we know, we understand. - Point is, the metal's together, man. - That's my point. Yeah, whereas an ice sculpture, it either looks like Bart Simpson or it doesn't. Or it's a broken piece of ice with shards going everywhere that looks nothing like Bart Simpson, one or the other. - I don't know how you make Bart Simpson out of ice. - I don't know how you did. - On the top of the hair, you'd have to really be gentle with that. - Oh man. - Snap one point off your fuck. That's it, you ruin the whole thing. - Yeah, now it's fucked, now it's stupid. - Now it looks stupid. So this was at the halfway snow festival. - Okay, yeah. - I guess it's partially melted snow festival is what that would make. At the same time here, they said Tony, Jim said quote, "Tony always had a screw loose." - Oh. - Yeah, he's, whatever mental illness his father had seems to-- - He did a little bit. - We'll build touch of the crazy here. Including, this is when he's a teenager now. This isn't even a old grumpy man and this is insane. Anybody that would do this should be in fucking jail. All right. His neighbor's dog would bark whenever someone walked from the house to the barn in their house in the Hilda Branch house that he was growing up at. One night, Tony told the family that quote, "You won't have to worry about that dog anymore." - Why not? - And they said, "Well, why is that, Tony?" And he said, "Well, I drove over it with the pickup truck "and he'll shut the fuck up now." - I squashed it. - I just ran it over with the pickup truck. - Oh boy. - So Jimmy Ray, the old dad of the family here, told him, "Well, you gotta bury the damn dog. "It's not right to leave it sitting out there, you know." - Yeah, that's gonna stink. - Yeah. - Also just, you know, in terms of not being a piece of shit person, if you killed a dog, fucking bury it, you know what I mean? - Yeah. - Don't be a piece of shit. So they said that he got a whole post-hole digger and just took one swipe of Earth. - A post-hole, that's the two sticks, James. Like, it's like fucking Earth. - Yeah, like a big spoon. Salad thumb. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not worse, like fucking-- - Two spoons. - That's the sticks, the Japanese sticks. - Chinese chopsticks. - There it is. - There you go. - Goddamn it, Earth is not thick. - Bring your japs on down here and we're proud to bring their chopsticks and tell 'em to-- - They're almost sent ya. - Dig a grave for this dog I done run over. (both laughing) He did that, just one scoop of that shit and then laid the dog in it. - And then threw it in there. - Unbelievable. - And his cousin said he could have spread it out, make a good-sized hole, do it respectfully, but that's not what he did. That's just, that's Tony. So, after high school, being a sensitive, caring young boy that he is, he joins the Marines. - That's what we've got, I mean-- - I mean, honestly though, woulder and anybody in here has been in the Marines. What is your job as a Marine? - All right, kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. - So, you know what I mean? They don't build it, so I mean, this might be the right place for him. Who knows, if he can maybe channel that in a good direction. - Sure. - So, for three years, he was stationed in Guam where he was an MP. He's a military police guy. - Really? - Yeah, which is strange, and not the guy you probably want to be. - I feel like the Asvab fucked up right there, right? - Yeah, they definitely-- - They're on top of that guy, Jesus. - They were like, I think he scored higher in hold digging than he did in this, and he didn't score high at all in hold digging as we found. - No, holding, for that. - So, they were just, his unit was responsible for defending a stockpile of nuclear weapons that we apparently keep on a tropical island. - He just, he just-- - Okay. - Well, that guy, all right. - He earned two ribbons for good conduct. - Okay. - And as we'll talk about, he will soon hear, he'll end up getting married when he's in Guam. That won't last long at all. His marriages are not stable. He's got a lot of them, and they're not stable. Then, and this is something that he claims, haunts him for years and years. During one patrol, his close friend, he said his best friend was another Marine named Michael, stepped on a landmine and was killed. - Oh, no. - I don't know why there was landmines here to begin with at this point in time, but, I don't know if it's like Afghanistan where there was leftover landmines. - Just sticking around somewhere. - From the '80s, and it was like World War II when they were still there in the '80s. That doesn't, did they not get all the landmines in Guam, from 40 years? - Well, they stepped on those. Do they, do you know you stepped on it? I mean, obviously there's a, you find out. - I think that's the point, yeah. - Yeah. - I think they're under the ground. You step on 'em and kaboom. - Then you move your foot and then bingo. - Yeah, when you take it off like a mousetrap, it fucking slaps you. - Mm-hmm, cool, cool. - That's what he said happened. I love a different story later on though, but this is a story he tells over and over again that he's haunted by his friend's death here, 'cause he saw it and he was there. It was April '88, he got married to a woman named Norma Jean Gogo, G-O-G-O, Gogo. Norma Jean Gogo, and Tony, there we go, Norma Jean, and there we go, so. - That's Marilyn Monroe's name, right? - Yeah, absolutely, Marilyn Monroe. Marilyn Monroe Gogo, which she should have taken that. That's what she should have, she. - There's a Gogo dancer named that I'm sure of it. - I'm sure Norma Jean Gogo, I'm sure there's a dancer, five drag queens, eight burlesque ladies. - Every way to tease about your titties, they name it, yeah. - Yeah, that's the one. So there we go, in 1989, he leaves the service, he's only in for two years, gets divorced, apparently, I would hope, because he's gonna get remarried very quickly. He moves to Oceanside, California, in 1989. - Fuck, yeah. - So he's gonna settle down here, and he meets a young woman named Rosa Carrasco. And she was 23 years old at the time, and he was only 20, he was about 22, going on 23 also, and she was very pretty, and he was smitten with her. - He's doing it, yeah. - Her stepfather, okay, follow this on the family tree, put this up on the wall with strings connecting it, all right. Her stepfather, who lived in San Diego, was Tony's Aunt Teresa's brother. - Her stepfather, Tony's aunt, well, if it's, the aunt has to be like a husband aunt, because otherwise, yeah, 'cause otherwise, if it's his brother, it would have to be his uncle. - Her brother would be her, so it can't be like that. - Unless there's a step involved. - I don't know. I don't know what's going on. Oh, her stepfather was, so yeah, it was-- - Okay, yeah, stepfather. - But still, that's his aunt's brother. - Still, yeah, right, that's not okay. - So yeah, step doesn't make sense on the other side. It doesn't matter. - That's 'cause it's her step, Jack. That's fucked up. (laughing) - I like her with like, oh, okay, wait, no, it's not. - No, no. - Yeah, same time, that took him the same amount of time to process for both of us there. So according to Rosa, Tony was handsome and charming in an outdoorsy type, and a tireless worker just got out of the marine, so he's used to doing things and shit like that. Didn't drink, didn't take drugs. - Yeah. - Just a real square go-getter kind of guy, and she was really into him. - I don't like this married, it's still married in cousin, but it's still not okay. - It's weird. - Yeah, turn okay. - Her stepfather was Tony's aunt's brother. - Yeah. - So there's no blood relation. - That's not okay. - There's no relation to any of them. - No. - But they're still coming to the same fucking Christmas. - That's what I'm talking about. There's no blood, like the kids will be fine if they have kids, but other than that, it's gonna be weird at Christmas time. - When people say, how'd you meet him? At my dad's wedding with his aunt. - We were sitting on the same side. (laughing) At the wedding, we were both on the bride's side. You know what I mean? - I don't like it, yeah. - That's creepy. - I don't like it at all. - So, yeah, she liked him. - She also said he rarely spoke of his mother's murder. He kept that close to the vest and didn't really say much. She said maybe around her birthday would come around or around Christmas, he would say, "You know, I wish my mom was here," and that would be it. So he just kinda kept it, you know. I assume he was had time to deal with this since it happened when he was six, so maybe he's figured out a place. So after they get married, they move to Oregon for a little while, where he gets a job as a corrections officer, and leaves the prison, though. This is a great way to get fired from a prison, by the way. - Oh, a fire, yeah. - An inmate accused him of stealing naked photos out of his mail. Some chick was sending him his wife, her girlfriend who ever sent him naked photos. This dude who was job was probably to go through the mail 'cause that was my mother's job, a green haven prison was to go through the mail. She used to, yeah, in the '80s, she worked there. Oh, she said it was just tons of tits and drugs. Tons of tits and coke, that's all that was in there. And it went worse, she said tits, it was like there was a lot of graphic shit and she'd have to look at it all, make sure there was no drugs in it and shit. So he fucking opened, he was like, I'll keep this for later, and put it in his pocket. You're on the outside, you can go get a fucking penthouse. This poor bastard's in prison. - Yeah, but this is real, this is amateur shit. - But he's like waiting with his dick in his hand for this. He's like, oh, she said she was gonna send me, she should be here today, I can't wait. (laughs) This guy's like, no, there's some girl next door shit right here. I'm gonna put this in my pocket. What's going on, oh? Wow, he also has some other run-ins with the law here. He gets arrested for a hit and run in 1991, or 1990, August of 1990, a hit and run and property damage. So he hit something and took the fuck off, basically. I don't know any other details with that. But it's enough to make them go back to California. He lost his, you know, he's got nude photos and all this, and he's getting arrested, so you might as well leave. Here he joins a street sweeping business owned by Rosa's father. - Yeah? - So he starts working for his wife's father at this point. - Okay. - Okay. 1993, they have a son. - Hell yeah. - He and Rosa, a son named Emilio. - Yeah. - Which is, Emilio, that's a poor kid, as soon as I was typing and I'm like, Emilio, this is terrible, this poor kid, Emilio. And Tony, they said, became increasingly withdrawn after the birth of the son. - Really? - I don't know if it was 'cause of less attention on him, or if he was a baby like that, or... - You know, it could be, I mean, he's got a lot of trauma from his childhood, he doesn't know how to be a dad. Maybe that's part of it too, you know. - Maybe that's part of it, yeah. I'll treat him like your coach has treated you, maybe. - That'll help, I mean, that works for you. Make him do laps and win sprints and shit, maybe. I don't know. - Keep going. - It's better than running away, I guess, you know. So he- - Why aren't you on that nipple or you're running laps, boy? - Let's go, come on, you better latch, son. It's gonna be squat thrusts from here on out for the rest of the night. - You're running suicide. - Oh man, so he, they said he would disappear for hours at night, and would just miss shifts at work, not show up, he'd disappear at night and then be gone the whole next day and then come home at one point. - Real flighty, huh? - Yeah, they never knew what he was doing or what he where he was, or he just, he's a nut. His, at the time, Rosa said that he wasn't much of a sleeper, she told people. She said for a while, I thought maybe he's on something 'cause he was just always up, but he was never the type to do drugs. But he doesn't sleep, basically. Which is if you don't sleep, there's a couple different reasons for that. One is bipolar a lot of times. People will have a manic phase, or just manic. You have a mania thing, but the manic phase, keep you up. - Yeah, or there's a guy with knives on his hands that's in my dreams. - One of the two, sometimes you gotta run from that. Sometimes you gotta run from that. - And sometimes you just have recurring bad dreams that you don't wanna fall asleep because, no, I mean, obviously you're not gonna get hurt, but it's just not experiencing those dreams is pretty nice. It sucks waking up in a sweat and out of breath and shit. That's the worst. Or the other, the only other time I hear people that for days do this, or like paranoid schizophrenics that lose time because they're somebody else and they don't know they're not sleeping. That's the only other thing. I'm not saying that's what he is, I'm just saying. - That's what comes up right now. - Always, yeah. So eventually, Tony is going to just take off from Rosa and Emilio and move back to Oregon and get a job as a truck driver. His jobs have been so varied. It's just-- - Yeah, none of them are really late. - He can't stick with anything 'cause yeah, he's just kind of out there. So March of 1996, Tony and Rosa agreed to meet in a parking lot in Oceanside to talk about a divorce. This is sounding eerily familiar of when his mother here. Rosa told her family, if I don't come back in a couple hours, there's something really wrong here. - Oh. - So she gets into his Dodge pickup truck with Emilio, who was three years old at this time. And out of nowhere, 'cause they were just gonna, they were driving like around just in circles in the area, he just pulled onto the freeway and said, "Change of plans." Oh, that's not terrifying at all. Change of plans, I think that maybe we just need some time together. She didn't agree to this. - Right. - We're going to Yellowstone, where are we going? - He drove 15 hours. - Oh boy. - How far is that? - What the fuck do you have? Yeah, it's with three-year-old. Can you imagine how many times a three-year-old would have to pee in 15 hours? - That's a lot. - All right, Mayor. So this is in Baker City in Northeast Oregon, where his brother Monty lived. He's going to Monty's house, that's where he's going. - Took him 15 hours to get there? - From California, they were in Oceanside, California. - Oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, right, right, you're right. - Yeah, up to Baker City. So they just lived there for two months. He just took her from the parking lot and said, "You're coming with me to move into Monty's house," and they just lived there. - For eight weeks. - For months, and they stayed in a rented trailer on the property, which is like, "Oh, this is great. "This thanks for picking me up. "This is terrific." She must think, "This is wonderful." And Tony appeared to just go, even lose his mind a little bit more here. Rosa found clippings of newspaper stories. She had like a collection of newspaper clippings, all about the same thing, all about men who got away with killing their wives, who killed their wives and then got away with it somehow, got acquitted. That's what he saves. He's like, "Oh man, that's a good one. "That's a good article." - Well, not for the good guys. - Some people save like recipes and shit, or like, even like a big game, they'll save the story. But this guy's like, "Oh, this guy, really." - Oh, he bashed your head in with an axe too. Oh, this is great. - A lot of guys have like the front page of when like the Yankees won the World Series. - Yeah. Yeah, he's got when fucking John Richardson got away with fucking, beheading his wife. Oh, OJ, he's got a shrine to OJ. You kidding me? He gets a shrine, man. So he would regularly take, regularly he would take Rosa and Emilio. We're talking pre-sunrise to a payphone where he would get on the phone while they sat there and he would, according to them, it seemed like he believed that he was speaking with his old Marine buddy, Michael, on the phone. He found a payphone where you could call heaven. So, or you could call the afterlife. - The landmine guy. - The landmine guy. He takes them, it's 4 a.m. to get the kid in the car. We're going to the payphone so I can talk to my dead friend. - Oh, man. - Oh, okay, sure. That's totally normal. Everything's fine. - Remember minder binders in Phoenix? You could tell me to pick up the phone at the fish tank and talk to the fish. - I do. I did comedy on the second floor. (laughing) I did. The second floor with all the shit hanging up there. - Yeah, put the basketball hoop on that stage. I know where it's happening. - It's a big stage. It was actually a good stage. - Huge, yeah. - You crush in that fucking room 'cause it was half stage and then there was programming people in there. - Had a railing around it. (laughing) - You crush in that fucking room. That room was great. - It really was. - It was like 60 people top. - Yeah. Those are great. Ah, I miss it. That place was cool as shit. - You try to push those shitty peanut butter burgers on you there. - Everything there. - That's all right. - The burger was fine. It was big. - Yeah, I don't know. - It was okay. She's fine burger. - Just a cool environment. - Yeah, it was okay. Did they knock that shit hole down? It was a giant barn. I'm sure it's something fancy now. - I think the building still exists, but it's closed. - Oh, it's closed, okay. - Yeah, I think the barn still exists, but it's closed. They may have built office space there or something. - Was there gravel parking lot? (laughing) Fucking terrible. (laughing) Jesus Christ. (laughing) So in addition to weird middle of the night, pay phone calls to the afterlife, Tony also all of a sudden out of nowhere becomes abusive, which he had never been abusive before at all, but he seems to be losing his shit a little bit here. During one argument, he pulled out a 22 rifle that he kept in the back of his car in the back seat of his truck and threatened her with it. So I'll fucking shoot you, I have a gun. Another time, he held her down and choked her. - Boy, oh boy. - So things are getting weird. And to the point where she's like, okay, it was strange enough for him to essentially kidnap us and take us here, but now it's getting really fucked up. I need to get out of here. So she starts trying to get an escape plan together, all right? - Yeah. - She's got a brother named Javier, and Javier is going to help her escape. That's the plan here. He's gonna drive. - He's the hero. - Javier's gonna come in, scoop her up and rescue her. He would, the plan is for him to drive up from San Diego to get her and Emilio at Monte's house and fucking get out of there as soon as possible. The hope was that Monte himself, the brother, though he didn't know what's going on, they thought he would help deescalate the situation 'cause he seems pretty sane and wouldn't be like, you know, wouldn't let his brother flip out and start murdering his children and his wife. So that's the plan. We're hoping Monte's sane enough, and hopefully this'll work. - Oh boy. - So March 26th, 1996 is the day that we have planned for this. Okay, Javier calls to check that Rosa and Emilio are there and in place. - And still into it. - Because Javier called, for some reason, Tony got suspicious. - He knows. - Just something happened in it. Yeah, he's very paranoid and he's actually right, but you know. - How 'bout that? - You broke it all. - You're leaving, bitch. - You're leaving? Has he coming up from San Diego to steal you and my son for me and drive you away to safety? - Wow. - So he jumped in the car with his wife and son in the front seat of the pickup and took off. Okay, takes off. On the highway, out of nowhere, he just pulls over. He said he needed to collect his thoughts. He just pulls over and he's just sitting there talking to himself now. - Boy, oh boy. - And Rosa said, quote, he's saying all these weird things that I can't understand and I just took that opportunity to jump out of the car. - And a girl. - So she jumped out of the car, screaming on the side of the highway on the shoulder. Just losing her mind, help me, help me, help me. So she left the kid in the car, though, 'cause she figured he's probably not gonna hurt the kid. He wants me. And so I'll get help and then me and the kid will get rescued. So instead, he takes his 22 rifle and points it at his son's head. He points it right at Emilio's head and tells Rosa to get back in the truck. - Oh boy. - So he, she does. - Yeah. - As a person would, yeah. So he bound their wrist to the seat belt, both Emilio, he's a little prisoner too. And he said, quote, if you're going to leave me, I'm going out in a blaze of glory. How terrifying is that if you're stuck with this guy? Especially because it's not like he's always been crazy. Like, this is a new thing where you're like, I don't know, even who the fuck this is anymore. This is a, he's been taking over. So Tony drives to Monty's house, drives back. We're just going to go home and pretend like nothing happened. When he gets there, Javier is standing outside. He's waiting and Javier's being a good brother because he's like, fuck this. I'm fucking taking my sister. This is crazy. So a huge confrontation, obviously blossoms on the front lawn. This is fun for the neighbors. I'd love to be an extra neighbor for this one. 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Because every time you make a purchase, Bombus donates an item to someone who needs it. Go to bombus.com/wondery and use code "wondery" for 20% off your first purchase. That's bombus.com/wondery, code "wondery". There's two brothers, another guy out there. A fuck, this is like a, this is a mess. So just put the kid inside. I don't want the kid to see this, but otherwise, this is crazy. So in the truck though, by the way, Monty is trying to calm Tony down. So they were right about that. Monty's like, "Chill of a fuck out, bro. "This is your acting nuts. "What are you doing?" - This is outrageous. - Rosa works herself free from the seat belt here 'cause she's been tied up. She was trying to get Emilio out, but he was really tightly bound. So she was afraid of what would happen here. So she said, "I just started to panic. "I had to make a quick decision "and I had to leave my baby in the car." - Oh no. - That's a wild decision, man. So at one point, Tony gets back in his truck and starts ramming his truck into Javier's car with the baby in the car, by the way. Baby still in the truck tied up in the seat belts. I guess that's as good as a car seat, probably. So Javier ends up driving through a neighbor's fence when he tries to flee with Rosa. Rosa jumps in her car, Tony starts bashing it. This isn't the front lawn of the fucking house. There's a demolition derby going on. Javier tries to take, just takes off through the neighbor's yard, plows through a fence, which is crazy. Finally, Tony stops the car, grabs the rifle and Emilio and runs inside the house. So now he's got his kid in there. Obviously, police begin to gather on the lawn, as they might. This'll draw some police attention if you have this kind of confrontation on the front lawn. A demolition derby, someone's calling. I think you're right. - The rifle and gun play with a child and it's just-- - That'll do it. - Holding up, that's not good either. I bet nobody called though until the neighbor's fence got taken down and then they were like, okay, that's enough now. - Now it's other people's shit. - Now it's my stuff, okay. It's gonna cost me a few hundred bucks to fix that. So he, as they gather on the lawn, Tony does the strangest thing ever. I mean, not strange if you want the cops to kill you, but he begins firing the rifle indiscriminately out the door in a series of warning shots, not at the cops, but like in the air out the door. They're like, hi, I'm here and I have a gun. He thought maybe that would make them go away. - Make him understand he's serious. - He then snuck out and lit his pickup truck on fire. - He got out of the house? - He snuck out, lit his pickup truck on fire, went back in the fucking house. - So now, yeah, so now there's a giant burning car in the fucking goddamn driveway that's gonna explode at any moment now and their cops are trying to stay back from that and he's pointing a rifle at a three-year-old's head in the house. Wow, this is crazy shit. So his cousin, Jim, by the way, who happens to be a sheriff's deputy shows up here. The amount of coincidences in this story, by the way, of this person's related to this person is fucking insane later on, way to hear this shit. So Jim Hilderbrand shows up in his deputy uniform here to try to help talk him down 'cause he heard what was going on. He goes, that's my cousin. Maybe I can talk to him, you know, I grew up with him. So finally, after 10 hours, he surrenders. 10 hours standoff with a burn pickup truck and everything else. The cousin Jim said, 'cause I guess Jim went in to talk to me, let Jim come in to talk to him. Jim said Emilio had wet himself. Tony was just totally out of it, staring out into space, telling us they can't take my boy, they can't take my boy. He got a complete mental fucking snap breakdown. - Somebody's gotta take him from you, man. - You can't do this, yeah. - He broke, this dude broke from fucking reality. So he's arrested, then they take him into custody for kidnapping and arson, which is, yeah, he's lucky he didn't get more for firing. - How does that shit though, you know what I mean? - Oh yeah. But I mean, just for firing the guns with the police in the vicinity, he's lucky he didn't get attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon. - Assault on a police officer for every cop that's there. - Exactly, he's very lucky he didn't get all that. Kidnapping obviously, we understand that. So it's assault, but they do a charge them with assault in the fourth degree, harassment, kidnapping in the first degree, arson in the first degree, and carrying and use of a dangerous weapon during the commission of a crime. So he's put in jail, obviously. - That's a 20% in it. - It seems like a lot, right? Especially the standoff at the end, really puts the cherry on top where. - And the weapon in commission of a crime, and the crime being first degree kidnapping. - That's what I mean. Like before that, you get a good enough defense attorney. You might be able to argue misunderstanding about the kidnapping and enough to muddy the waters for a jury, but once you have a fucking standoff with the entire county's police force, and you've shot at them and set your truck on fire and shit, I think you've gone past the point of-- - That's a 20, right? - Seems like it. So in jail, he tries to kill himself immediately. - Sure. - That doesn't work. That doesn't work. - I'm not gonna do this time. - Then he starts telling anyone who will listen about all the demons that are in him and around him. There's demons everywhere, man. And he starts, that's all he'll talk about is demons. Demons, demons, demons. - Oh, they're in there. - They're in there. - They're in there. - If he just shakes his head, you could hear him rattling like a fucking maraca. I hear him in there, okay. So he pleads not guilty by reason of insanity. - Really? - Yeah, which honestly seems like probably, I don't know. - There's some mental health issues, that's for sure. - I don't know if it's, yeah. So his defense is that, and this is what his defense attorney's gonna say in court at the trial. His actions were guided, at least in part, by the voices of both his dead mother, who had been shot and killed by his father. So he said, he had his dead mother's voice in his head, and he did whatever it said. That's what he said. Dead mom did this. Why would his dead mother want him to do this? This is the weird part, I don't know. She seems sane. I could see the voice of my father. He's cool as fucking crazy, but not mom. So people, there's a lot of publicly a big argument and a big debate about whether he meets the crazy criteria insane criteria legally. The state psychiatrist concluded that he was depressed because of his circumstances, but he didn't have any other mental illnesses and didn't qualify for the insanity defense. But a private psychologist disagreed, and said that Tony had told him he heard voices. His mother, who was killed by his father, and his buddy too, from the Marines, who died. - See, here's him. - He hears him too. So they're both. - Got him there. - Got him there. He also described other symptoms that said that he probably suffered from bipolar disorder as well. Okay, so he ends up being diagnosed with schizophrenia and depression here, and he is going to be, go to a verdict to find out if he's crazy or guilty. That is 1997, the verdict comes in, he is guilty, but insane. - Okay. - Guilty and insane. - So he is guilty, that's good. - So he's, yeah, he is guilty. So he's placed under jurisdiction of the state psychiatric security review board, as we'll talk about, that's a thing that Oregon had, that's kind of a special thing. He's placed under their jurisdiction for 70 years. So the rest of his life, essentially. He's almost 30 years old, so they're saying, 'Til he's a hundred, he's under their care. 70, I mean, I saw 12 to 20 as a possibility. - Yeah, as jail, this is, he might do less time, but then they could put him away again if they thought he was going nuts again. - They could hang on to him for 70, if they weren't. - Or, if he never gets sane, hang on to him for 70. - Wow. - So he's committed to the Oregon State Hospital. He's 29 at that time. And this, by the way, this hospital, you've seen this hospital, you've seen the inside of it a lot, because it is the primary filming location for one flew over the Cuckoo's Nest. - Oh. - Yeah. - You've seen it, yeah. - Such a shit hole that it actually, the whole point of the plot of the movie was, we got to get the fuck out of this place, it's so bad. - Or, you commit yourself voluntarily, and that's why everybody except Jack Nicholson is. - And that's me, exactly, one of the two. So, yeah, it's infested with mold and rats. - Yeah. - It's my basketball court. - It's sweet, it's pretty sweet. And you can get out the windows, which is important. It's very important, including a wall of shelves in the basement lined with, 'cause there's tons of storage from years of neglect. They have 5,000 copper urns of unclaimed remains of people. - 5,000? - 5,000 of people who've been in there that have been cremated and nobody wanted, so they just put it into the basement. - 5,000 people died in here. We just burned them up and nobody wanted it. Those are just the unwanted ones that ended up getting cremated 'cause nobody wanted 'em, so that's, think about that. - So many more people have died here. - So many fucking people, yeah, but these are just people where they went, "Yeah, just throw 'em in the basement," and they just threw 'em away. - That's a mausoleum, right? Is that what you call that? - You'd call it, it should be something, I think, 'cause there's fucking cemeteries that don't have that many dead people in 'em. That's crazy, dude. - That's a lot of dead people. - You can't just store that many, you can't do that, right? There hasn't been that, like, not okay? You can't just put that in the basement. - Okay, that's what I mean. Give 'em a special room, a special little building. - Let it win the other. - Build a fucking, like, a storage, like a thing, but, like, say, "Oh, this is for that special." I don't know, something. So, according to the records here, Tony experiences auditory hallucinations and endorsed some paranoia in the early stages of hospitalization, but then seem to settle in, they said. - Okay, so he's got comfortable with the surroundings now, and-- - He's getting chill here, yeah. It settled in so well that he became kind of like the, he became the, like, the sort I'm looking for, the fucking illegal, no, the illegal shit guy. He became-- - Oh, okay, yeah. - He became the contraband fucking guy. Sorry, what the hell that word went from me. He would loan shark, he's loan sharking. - Oh, yeah. - That seems very sane. - Yeah, he's doing, like, what Uncle Junior did in the Sopranos when they put him in there. And he was like, "Well, run a poker game "and charge him $5 for a coke." And then he would sell, "This is the best. "This is so 1997." He sold porn CD-ROMs to the patients. - CD-ROM. - He would get CD-ROMs of porn and sell, so all these fucking people could be whacking it still. That's amazing. A psychologist noted that the staff was always challenged to try to keep up with his latest attempts at engaging in commerce and getting away with it. - Wow. - 'Cause yeah, he's smarter than a lot of these people in there or not smarter, he's just more with it than a lot of the people in there. Yeah, so in 1999, this is two years and it was stay, he incited a riot. - Really? Oh, that's-- - Talk to all these people into rioting. - Can you imagine-- - He is Jack Nicholson except he has to be there. That's the only difference. So November 4th, 2002. Okay, he's been in here five years. It's been five years. Okay, the Security Review Board decides to release him to a group home in Ontario. - They can't handle it. - Now, this is what they do also. This, the board, they have these communities where they send them where they're basically like, they're basically like outpatient, almost, yeah, almost like halfway house facilities where they live a normal life and do all that shit but they're under supervision also. - They have to get the house, yeah. - And they have to get therapy and they have to do all that shit. So they grant it. Mary Lee Burgess who ran the Burgess Adult Foster Home said he was always very likable but he just had a way of working people and doing crooked things. He's a bullshit artist like his father. - Yeah. - That's what it is. - A lady. - Now, yeah. - That's a very minimal minimizing of a woman that, I mean, she's, it's a bad guy. - It is. - Things she just said is terrifying. - Crooked. - Yeah. - So now this review board, by the way, this is an attempt by Oregon to actually do something half decent because very quickly in the early '60s, the President Kennedy at the time made a big speech about we can't have, 'cause this is one abuses in all these, remember like the Haraldo Special, it's a famous thing back in the day where he went to the, the, the Cropsy place and fucking went in there. And if you look at old videos from the '60s when reporters would go in, these places were fucking horrible hellholes. They just had people in there, just with shit all over them banging their heads against the wall, nobody watching, nobody helping, nobody doing anything, it was just a place to house people, it was horrible. And so this was in the early '60s is when that first started to come to light and they said, you know, we gotta stop this. So they ended up closing a huge portion of the mental health facilities in the country because they were horrible, they were terrible. The problem is they'd never built any new ones. They just closed those. They'd never built any new ones. And by the '80s, they slashed all funding to that kind of shit. So that was that basically. So now you had way less places for these people to go and no funding for them anyway. So that's when, you know, that's when you have a lot of, that's also when like homelessness spiked too because those people were mentally ill. - They're used to be beds for them, right? - Exactly, so I mean, whatever your opinion is on that, as your opinion, I'm just saying that's what happened. That's how it ended up being. So in '77, Oregon created the psychiatric security review board and it would evaluate and discharge different people. So it was the first agency for insanity acquittles in the country set up to operate outside of the prison system. So there's gotta be, their basic whole thing was, there's gotta be something between prison and no treatment. There's gotta be something in the middle there. You know, just whatever. - We keep an eye on them, right? - Yes, their oversight comes with regular case manager check-ins, drug and alcohol screening, subsidized housing, mental health care and work placement. - And it's not even just for compassion. That's for their fucking safety because you can't put somebody that's mentally ill in with the fucking, it's like putting Cyril in dogs. Like that guy's incapable of living with those people. - But now that's exactly what they do. - That's what they're doing, yeah. - Like if you read any book about anybody in prison, it's, I mean, half the people are seriously mentally ill, they're not getting meds or anything like that 'cause that's expensive, they're just being housed basically and then stabbing each other over and over again. - Let me take advantage of it. Whether they're being stabbed, they can be sold for sex, they can be passed around for anything and it's so fucked up. - Yeah, a lot of times that's what they are, they're robbed all the time and shit like that. So the offenders would be placed under state jurisdiction for the maximum length of time that sentencing guidelines allow. But fewer than half of the agency's population, which was about 600 people, are in the state hospital. So they'd have kind of half and half, half in the hospital, half in this kind of halfway house world. The majority were living in Oregon communities with designated mental health center in every county offering services there. So they did that. This is expensive too, this program. Each person, it costs around $18,000 a month to run this program. - Sure, yeah. - It's fucking expensive, obviously. So it's more expensive than jail, clearly. - Absolutely, yeah. - So the people who would be suffering for mental illness who have not committed a crime, they said might not have as much access to the system as people who have committed a crime 'cause this is for the jail system, it's part of that. - You gotta commit a crime to get in here. - So that's the tough part. They said most of these offenders have been charged with serious crimes, but they rarely commit another act of violence while they're under state supervision on the outside 'cause they're very monitored. And they can tell when they're either snapping or if they're doing drugs again or some shit like that. So the board estimates the recidivism rate for offenders on conditional releases around a half of 1%. - That's wonderful. - Which is nothing, yeah, that's nothing at all. So now June, that's what they say, though, when they're reporting. June 21st, 2003, he's out and about and he's gonna be arrested again, Tony. He's arrested for a few things, all in the same act, unauthorized use of a vehicle. Theft in the first degree and theft in the second degree. Yes, there you go. He's gonna be sent back to the hospital at this point 'cause the board can revoke your release at any time and send you back to the hospital. That's part of it. At a moment's notice, they can go. You're going back here. Apparently, he bought a truck at auction, but just didn't pay for it. - Okay, he just raised his tablet through the keys at him. - He just stole it, yeah. That's called stealing it, is what that is. You're paying for it, just bidding on it's not the whole transaction, you gotta actually complete it. - Right. - Wow, according to the police report, it was impounded and it had stolen plates on it. So not only did he, he wasn't a misunderstanding, he stole license plates and put them on him. Yeah, he knew exactly what he was doing. So, back in the loon, he'd been with him. There he goes. And while he's there, now, most people, when they go to a facility like this, I assume they're either trying to get out of the place or trying to get better, maybe, they're trying to do whatever. This guy is trolling for fucking Puss, is what he's doing. - What? - Oh yeah, he finds a woman in there to hook up with. - Oh, inside. - Inside. - Oh, Lee. - Which is always gonna work out, right? - Which side of the fence is she on? - Oh, no, she's a patient. Oh, not a doctor, no a patient. - Wonderful. - Perfect. There's gonna be a match made in heaven here. - It's probably great sex. - I'm sure. I mean, it's cliche, but it's probably true. You know what I mean? - Yeah, both sides. - As hack as it is, it's true. - Yes. - That's why it's hack. - Absolutely. - Oh boy. - Oh boy. - So, Roberta is her name, Roberta Chandler. She's another patient. She began dating him in 2003. She said, quote, "I was in love with him." So much to love here. He kind of treats you like a queen. He would give anybody anything they needed, but then there's that awful Tony. So she's broken him into two separate people. - He's two different guys. - Nice Tony and awful Tony. - Yep. - So that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, he's dating her. He was back on conditional release within a month, by the way, of this hack. - Yeah, that's too fast. - He just said like he got confused or whatever. The recommendations were, it was based mainly on a recommendation from his caseworker, Alice Mills, who worked there. She wrote in his month at the state hospital that, quote, "This should be a wake-up call that he needs "to monitor behavior because of loss of freedom "and respect is a big price to pay." So she thinks this properly chastened him. - Okay. - He learned that if he doesn't anything silly, they'll throw him right back in the hospital. I think now he's learned his lesson that he needs to straighten arrow now, you know, fly straight, big guy. So he would meet Alice and Tony. Alice Mills, the caseworker and Tony would meet nearly every week for nine years. - Yeah. - And she seemed to really care about him and frequently advocate it on his behalf. In one report, she wrote that he's bright and capable. He's a good problem solver and savvy in communication. Full of shit is what that means. He's hardworking and goal-oriented, which if put in a good path, that's great. But if you're a con man, that's not great. - Yeah. And if he's got, yeah, he's never gonna follow to the line. This is-- - No. - These are all terrible qualities for a bad guy. - As we'd saying crime and sports, he's good now maybe. We'll find out. - He's got qualities that are positive. - Something here. - Now, okay, by the way, there's still murder here coming, even though we've already had murder and kidnapping and fucking police stand off and everything else. - This is a happy one, yeah. - So he's dating Robert on the outside. I guess he's living with her as much as he can and he has to go back to the facility, whatever, the halfway place. One time, Turing this, a fire broke out in her apartment while he was there, a fire. He claimed the dog knocked over a halogen lamp and set the place on fire. - Why you got halogen lamps and stuff? - Halogen lamps and I guess this is pre, whatever, but knocked it over. - Yeah, well, here's this, this is 2000s. - Yeah, this is, what is this? 2002, 2003, 2003. - Remember those tall lamps? - Oh, yeah. - Yeah, those things, so far as you bet, yeah. - 'Cause they were bright as fuck, you'd have one in the light all room with it, yeah. - You aim it up and it lights this whole motherfucker. - Whole fucking thing. It was 7,000 degrees if you put your hand anywhere near it. - Yeah, don't drop any piece of paper on top of that light. - No, that would take the fucking, take the hair from your knuckles, like fucking, whoa, send that off, very terrible, yeah. - Oh, wait, that's hot. - Holy shit, so, he ends up, like we said, there's a fire on the insurance claim. They say, quote, he wanted me to say, this is Roberta talking, he wanted me to say that we had more stuff than what was in there. The insurance company threw up a red flag and I didn't get anything. - Oh, really? - He burned this, apparently, allegedly, we'll say, some, him or the dog burned this poor woman's apartment down and then she got nothing. All of her stuff is gone. Thanks. - 'Cause he's reporting the 12 Faberge eggs that were destroyed. (laughing) - He's reporting his, yeah, his fucking Scrooge McDuck fucking gold pit that it wasn't, it got all fucked up. - I had a pile of about $8 million in the corn. - You know that, I had that here. You know, I had several rare paintings, right? That is a big art collector, I had Rembrandt's, I had a lot of stuff in there. This is nuts. - Basically the Louvre in this apartment. - That's how he had it, I mean, I put my money into art. Some people would buy a big giant house. I said, I'm gonna get a small apartment, spend my money on art, you know what I mean? - I wanted to look at it all. - That's what I wanna do. So he has to meet with Alice Mills, his caseworker about the fire. And Mills asked a clinical psychologist to interview him to see if he's an arsonist. Can you see if he's an arsonist? Your opinion on this is? - Yeah. - He arrived to the appointment on time, wearing a t-shirt and blue jeans with his goatee quote, neatly trimmed, according to the report, and his haircut short. - Goatee, neatly trimmed. - Neatly trimmed. - Yeah. - According to the psychologist, the psychologist said that Tony did not have a quote, serious problem with fire setting. He does have impaired judgment, which contributed to the fires. - Right. - So it's not that he really wants to start fires, it's just that he has bad judgment and if fires around then that'll be the result of it. Not that he's a super in the fires. - That was evidenced by his goatee. - Yeah, neatly trimmed. So Roberta Chandler has a different opinion. She said, quote, "I think Tony was playing "and manipulating everyone and everything he could "to get whatever Tony wanted." - There you go. - And I think she probably knows him best at everyone here too. That's the thing here. - February 2005, by February 2005, he's involved in at least three more property fires, by the way. - Wow. - Shit catches on fire when he's around, which by the fact that he's set his truck on fire for no reason back in the day. - Right. He interrupted a kidnapping to start a fire for Christ. - Yeah. - He's like outside. - When shit gets loud in his head, I feel like he starts looking for matches. You know what I mean? He's like, "I need fire, quiets it right down." That's what I need. - The crackling, the crackling. So by then, one in his apartment led to, because in his own apartment, led to a $24,000 insurance payout. - Oh boy. - They did pay for the Faberge eggs. - He had runners' insurance. - Another, he, I guess, set a fire in a friend's camper. - Oh no, friend's camper on fire. - What's got out of control and was gone and he ends up being arrested for reckless burning, which is not arson. That means like, like if you had like a, you were burning leaves in your yard or something and something else caught on fire, you might get arrested for that. That's very strange. - So everything with a bonfire on a birthday, that's reckless burning. - Reckless burning. Now later in 2005, he's gonna go to jail for about 90 days, not for the fires, by the way, mind you, but for stealing $3,000 worth of scrap metal from a sawmill. Now he's, now he's pulling bubbles, shopping cart capers. This is fucking-- - $3,000, that's a fuckload of squat. - Oh wow. - That's a scrap metal, that's a lot of scrap metal. Yeah, it's a lot. - They didn't get him for stealing the truck too. - I think it was a pickup truck load worth of scrap metal. - Wow. - He's always got a big Dodge pickup truck, by the way. Loves him. So shortly after this, his caseworker Mills confronted him about his criminal bullshit. What are you doing, setting fires and stealing shit? He told her that he could avoid these issues by being like some of his peers who don't do anything but take pills, sleep and watch TV. That was his quote, like why could you sleep and take pills and watch TV and fucking pass out, but I'm trying out there in the world trying to make something with myself. - Yeah. - He's acting like I'm being ambitious and this is the fucking thanks I get. - I'm out here giving the cops a reason to show up. - No shit. So somehow in the midst of all of this, he finds another woman. - Is that right? - Must be a charming son of a bitch 'cause I've seen him. He's not the most handsome guy in the world by any stretch. So he's gotta be just charm fucking city USA, boy. - Wow. - I don't know how he's pulling these women here. He finds a woman named Katie Gill and he met her at a welding class at the Treasure Valley Community College. - At the, okay. - Yeah, he goes community college welding chick he found. Oh yeah. - Is that an elective? What is that? - She's a welder. I think that's you go there just for that. I don't think you're doing it. - Is she there to weld? - Yes, this is a welding class. It's not like-- - Katie's an interesting gal. - Yeah, she's a welder. And they end up welding together and shit, which is crazy. They end up getting married these two. They're gonna have two kids. - Dead serious. - Dead fucking serious. They're gonna have two kids in the next few years. Two kids. This is all while she lives with her parents and he stays in the subsidized housing for the mentally ill in Ontario. They don't even, they're married and having kids. They don't fucking even live in the same house. - He goes back to the mentally insane house. - At night. - Wow. - And she bounces the kids on her knees and she lives with her parents. - They're in the day. They've got it. - They must be. They're fucking in daylight. - They're making children with the sun up. - That's impressive. You've got to want somebody. So spring of 2009, he requested a full discharge from the board supervision. - Yeah. - Full discharge. - I'm a dad. - Come on, look at me. I'm building a life. I got exactly, I got two kids and a wife and I can't even be with them. I'm fucking stuck here. So Alice Mills in her report wrote, "I'm fine with this." - Yeah. - "I'm fine with this." And she wrote in a letter to the board, "My thought is that Anthony has a mental illness but with symptoms well managed. If he does get into trouble in the future, it will more likely be due to his anti-social trace rather than mental illness." Like he's more of a dick than he is crazy. If he gets in trouble, it'll be much more because he's an asshole than because he's a lunatic. You know what I'm saying? - I'm fine with this because he's very dangerous. So let him out. - But what she's saying makes sense from the board's perspective of, you can't hold someone in a halfway house and all this shit because they're an asshole. That's a million assholes around there. That's a separate issue. If he does crimes because if he's an asshole, then you put him in jail, but he won't do crimes because he's mentally ill. That's for sure. That's her point of view. - Is she saying that the behavior that he exhibits is more of a danger to himself than to public and society? - No. She's just saying it'll be his mental illness won't cause him to commit crimes. The fact that he's an asshole well. And we can't hold him just 'cause he's an asshole. His mental illness is under control. So that's the thing. Well, not the mental illness board. Yeah, but it's 'til you're sane, not 'til you're a nice guy, you know? 'til you're a good guy who we can trust and wanna hang out with. It's just sanity. So it becomes a weird gray area where you're like, hmm, he's gonna fuck up, but he's not crazy. So what do we do? It's hard. Yeah, do you lie and say he's crazy so you can keep him alone. - The antisocial behavior is fucking dangerous. - That's dangerous, yeah. It's caused a lot of problems in the past, obviously. At his request, though, even though it was backed by his caseworker, was denied. Within a year, he and his wife, Katie, have divorced. - That's over now. - She's moved on to a-- - And she wants a guy that'll sleep next to her. - Yeah, she wants a guy that's gonna come home with little welding burn marks all over him and then lay in bed next to her at night. - You can pop each other's boisterous. Come home, baby. - Don't worry, though. Very, very quickly, he'll be engaged again. - Oh, is that right? - Oh, absolutely. He never skips a beat this guy. - He's got Emilio out there somewhere. - Who the Emilio is long gone? - He's an actor by now. - Poor Emilio is, yeah. Emilio is committing his own crimes, probably the poor kid. So, holy shit, that poor kid. So, anyway, he meets his new woman. Her name is Anita Harmon. That's Anita with two ends, by the way, and Anita. I've never seen that before. She goes by Anita. That's what everybody calls her. So, Anita Harmon, he meets her in the checkout line at Walmart, which is easy to do. You'd go, "Oh, what a big coincidence." You know, Kismith, they're there at the same time. No, she's the cashier, so she's always there. So, anytime you go there, you can meet her, yeah. So, it becomes less mystical and cosmic, if when you put it that way. - Yeah, he could just show up. He could just later the schedule and show up any time. - Any time, yeah. And he met her, and then he sought her out. He friended her on MySpace, 'cause this is the time period here, friended her on MySpace and pursued her via social media and email, and got her to start dating him that way. And she was smitten, man. She told her family, "He is, quote, the man of my dreams." - She doesn't realize she was just stalked. - No fucking idea what's going on or who she's getting involved with. Now, Anita's born in 1976, so she's a little bit younger than him. Not nine, 10 years, ish. So she has two kids herself coming into this. And that's what happens, yeah. That's just 30, I mean, Christ. And then her parents' names are Susan and Bud. We'll talk about them too. It was a lot of quotes here. Now, Anita has problems of her own. She suffers from pretty good bipolar disorder. She's got pretty strong here, so that's tough to live with anyway. She lives on the property of her parents. Her parents, on their property, built an 1,800 square foot apartment for her. - Oh, yeah. - So she's all set up with the kids. They're trying to get her in a stable environment set up, so there's not a lot of stressors that might make her have a hard time. Yeah, exacerbate her illness, anything like that. She has two kids hugely into animals. She was a big horse kid as a child. So into that, and she would like bring home stray cats all the time, and her mother would be like, "Please stop with the fucking goddamn stray cats." - There's a lot of them out there, stop finding them. - Especially if you live on a farm. You know how many stray cats you're gonna find? There's so many mice. - Oh my God, yeah. - All there is is mice and milk around here. Jesus Christ, do you understand? Fuck, so her condition, her mental illness, when it would get worse and worse, they said at times, 'cause it would get worse from time to time, they said her apartment would be in complete fucking disarray. You'd know her mental state by walking in her apartment. So it was clean and tidy, she's doing fine, if not. They said disarray, dishes piled up in the sink, garbage everywhere, full litter box, full of cat shit. Yeah, and her mother says I could hear her upstairs sobbing. Her depression was just so great. So when she'd be on the downswing of the bipolar, that's so hard, man, that's difficult. So Tony and Anita own a business together. - What? - You hear these two and you go, they should start a business, I think, right? - They can't work for people. - Well, they own Northwest Materials Management Services. Which sounds fancy. And that sounds like a big company, that's collecting scrap metal, that's their, your corporate name for scrap metal collectors. - Sounds like an ABC sand and gravel, like it sounds like a place where they, they've got a built. - Have a big property. - Yeah, it separates sediment from like the pebbles. - No, no, they have a couple of pickup trucks where they're-- - Full of air conditioning units. - Fuck it, air can be old fucking radiators and shit. Whatever bubbles is collecting on the wire, watch the wire, whenever he's gotten his cart, that's what they have. - Oh, fuck. - But their thing is, they're kind of a middle man between people with shit loads of scrap metal and the scrap metal people. Like if you have a bunch of scrap metal on your property, you can hire them to come clean it all up, take it to the scrap metal thing, and then you pay them a percentage of whatever the fuck it's worth, basically. That's what they're kind of their business here. So the, now Susan, this is Anita's mom, describes Tony as, this is a nice way that your mother-in-law's gonna describe you, possessive and domineering, that's great, that's what you wanna be. Tried to segregate Anita from the rest of her family and other influences, you know, like these guys do, like a stalker, although Anita worked full-time at Walmart during their marriage, she also would then work after shift on the scrap metal business as well, 'cause that wasn't paying the bills, she's still working at Walmart this all time, which is fucking crazy. So, yeah, it was in both of their names, the business. The mother Susan said it was a classic cycle of domestic violence, but it was more mental and emotional than physical. - Yeah, and it's a lot of locker in this prison life with putting her name attached to paperwork for scrap metal dealing. - For scrap metal books, yeah, scrap metal shit. So, August of 2010, they get a big job, big old scrap metal job. This is the Hyples, H-E-I-P-L-E-S is their family. That's the property, Edward Hyples, he contacts the company here, Jita and Tony, about a scrap metal removal job. Now, they owned a lot of property, the Hyples in Grant County, where they had collected tons of shit, basically, antique metal equipment, old commercial trucks, vintage cars that have been rotting out there, logging equipment, train locomotives. - Jesus. - Just so much scrap metal though, basically at this point. They had like an old Plymouth out there, like a '40s Plymouth that had rotted away and all this shit. They wanted to sell all this shit as scrap metal, they just wanted to clear it out, rather than go through it and see what they could restore and sell it on fucking eBay or whatever. So, Hyple and Tony agree orally, that the, which makes it sound like Tony blew him afterwards to seal the deal, that the Hyples will sell their metal to Tony and Nita, and they would process the haul to a recycling facility, and the Hyples would be paid based on the weight and type of any metal that was removed from the prop. They're gonna get a cut, essentially. Everyone's gonna get their cuts. This job goes on for the next two months. There's so much shit out there, it takes months. So, Tony, he hired a crew of employees to do this and everything. They worked to remove the metal from the property. One of the employees, Katie Montweiler, I don't know if that's his ex-wife or what? I know somebody's, but she's a welder named Katie. That's gotta be his ex, right? But why would she be with him still? If it makes no sense. They've been... His circle can't be broad, right? (laughing) Who knows, that's what I mean. I'm thinking this is just, it could be coincidence, though, as we'll talk about later, there's a lot of coincidence. She used welding equipment to cut apart the larger pieces of scrap metal, so it could be more easily transported and everything like that. Yeah, torched it apart. They loaded the metal onto trucks and hauled it to different recycling facilities, depending on what metal it was and all that kind of shit. So, at one of the facilities, United Metals, the protocol went like this. Vendor would bring in a load of metals there, staff weighed them, weighed the loaded truck, then re-wade the truck after the metal was unloaded. Right, then you know how much you dropped, yeah. Yeah, like when you're trying to see how much your dog weighs. You weigh yourself first, pick 'em up. The vendor's payment was based on the difference in weight, obviously. So, the company paid the vendor directly and did not identify the source of metal. Now, in September and October, 2010, Nita and Tony and two of their employees delivered loads of metals to United Metals. While they were removing the metals, they periodically made payments to the Hypele family. On those occasions, their company would present Hypele with a check and a handwritten account, like a logbook, of the loads of metal that they claimed they were moved and what they were paid for, you know, the books, basically. On the last day of the job, Nita asks Eric Hypele to sign an accounting thing, like a sign off on, and it's all good a receipt. He said, "No, I won't do it." He believed they had failed to properly account for all the loads they hauled away. Thought they were fucking them over. He thinks there's more, yeah. Which I don't blame him for thinking that. He thought that the document did not account for the final load that had been taken from the property. Okay, now, this goes big enough for the cops to get involved. Oh, several months later, Hypele tells an officer from the Grant County Sheriff's Office that they had stolen scrap metal from his parents, the Nita and Tony. So, Hypele gives the Sheriff's Office the handwritten accountings that had been provided by the defendants and the, later on, the defendants, the Sheriff's deputy obtains business records from United Metal. Imagine this is, you're a cop. You dreamt about chasing people like, "Freeze, police!" And you're going around checking log books for scrap metal yards. This is not the excitement I don't think you want it to. - That don't tackle very opening books. - This isn't like Serpico, exactly. I don't think that you had in mind when you started this shit. So, yeah, and other scrap metal facilities, Schnitzer Steel and Pacific Steel, where they had delivered scrap metal during the time that they were removing metal. They examined the weight of the defendants later on, this I'm saying, the defendants meeting their company, metal deliveries as measured by the facilities and compared all that. The comparison suggested that they delivered more metal to United Metals and to other facilities than they claim to have removed from the property. - Yeah. - So, they concluded that they'd removed and failed to pay them. They removed about 250 tons of metal, by the way. - And they were trying to get paid for all of it and give them a cut for what, 150 tons, some shit like that? - Basically, yeah, they paid less than half of its value. So, what the metal they stole was worth, essentially, is $13,693, they stole from the Hyples. - High-end methy. - That's a lot, what's tons, 250 tons. So, they're arrested and indicted jointly, Anita and Tony, and tried for the crime of first-degree aggravated theft. - Wow. - And the police even put a thing in the paper saying, other victims have come forward to report similar conduct by the couple. - That's how they behave. - And victims are asked to call the, they had like a special line set up if you were a victim of these scrap metal scammers. (laughing) - Have your family been diagnosed with lung cancer? - Yeah, if you drank the water at Camp Lejeune, because now. - This is crazy, how's your vaginal match? - Speaking of crazy, December 7, 2010, Anita and Tony get married. - What? - Now that they're all indicted together and everything, you might as well get married together. What the fuck? He still lives in subsidized housing, by the way, in Ontario, and he would spend, and would spend weekends in Wiser, Idaho, like Budweiser, when he had custody a lot of times of the two kids, 'cause he would take the two kids he had with Katie Gill on the weekends. And they said, "Tony would just go into a bedroom "and close the door, and the kids would be left out "with Anita." - Oh no. - He's just like, "Watch these, please." - Yeah. - That's my time with my kids. - Yeah, and this was in the attic apartment that they built for her. And Susan, her mom, Anita's mom, said I would hear stomping and screaming and yelling, and Susan says the only reason she thinks Anita put up with this was because of her mental illness. She said, "Bipolar people do some things "that let you know that they want somebody to love them, "and that's what Tony provided. "Tony was a manipulator." - Sure. - And he was in the same fucking boat, so they're, you know what I mean? The two of them. They go to trial in 2012 here for the scrap metal shit. He's got an insanity defense. I'm so insane, I stole a scrap metal, which is a-- - I can't count sometimes. - Wow, my insanity makes me not be able to count or be honest here, which is fucking incredible. They say that they're talking about mental illness here. There's a lot of articles about what makes you mentally ill and whatever. And basically it's, some states have no, like Idaho has no mentally ill, like no guilty by insanity, none of that shit. You could be literally, you know, sibble from the fucking movie they showed you in health class with like 18 personalities not know what the fuck you did. You're still guilty or not guilty, that's it. - Oh boy. - Either they let you go or they put you in prison. So they don't have any of that shit. There's a few states past laws that did that. So they said that there's a lot, they said this is a professor of psychology, said what we've learned is that it's much more squishy than the determinations that we have to make in the legal system, squishy. - That's the scientific medical way to put it squishy. Oh my God, they said anti-social personality disorders are psychopathy, which manifest in traits like lack of empathy, a transactional nature, emotional volatility, and what experts call critical think or criminal thinking, do not meet the threshold of the insanity defense. 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We bashed that together with other loads. - Oh, we brought mold? - Yeah, so that wasn't your all your metal. - I brought this from home. - Yeah, I brought extra from home. I have this here, you don't have that. That's what they tried to say. - Like when I got caught with my, when I was stealing a cash register, they're like, "What's all this money on the side here?" I'm like, "Oh, I brought that from home." - Yeah, no, I brought that pre-wrapped, shrink-wrapped video game from home. That's, I just carried it around with me. - That's mine. - It's mine when you're 12. So Anita testifies that she accounted for all the metals she had pauled from the property on a handwritten ledger, which she gave the guy. She testified that the Plymouth and Osmobile, the old cars in the last load did not belong to the hipples, which they're saying, they did belong to them. According to Anita, her employees brought those cars to the staging area on the hipples property so that a welder could cut them apart before they were taken to a facility. So they brought them there to be cut and stacked with the rest of the shit, and they're saying, "No, those were on our property." - I didn't bring the welder to my car, I brought the car to the welder. - Exactly, made it a lot easier here. So during this time, too, there was a Supreme Court case on the insanity defense, considering whether states are allowed to abolish the insanity defense. - Oh. - One of the cases was a guy named James Collar, K-A-H-L-E-R, who was sentenced for killing four family members, and his lawyer said he had such severe depression that it was impossible for him to understand reality or to distinguish right from wrong. They said because Kansas had eliminated the insanity defense, he was barred from raising the defense. So that's how they were going into this. And they had different arguments. Stephen Breyer, the one justice, he pointed out that this means that people are not culpable if they truly did not know what they were doing. If, for instance, they killed a human being under the delusion that they are killing a dog, just as a hypothetical. If they thought it was a dog, but it's not. But they are culpable if they did not, if they do not know that their actions are wrong. If, for instance, they knew they were killing a human, but believed a dog told them to kill that human. So that's kind of how he's trying to, and he said, what's the difference? It's a deep, deep question. Like, can you explain to me what the difference is from a psychological standpoint? They got into all of that. Anyway, the verdict comes down. They're both found guilty of aggravated theft in the first degree. - Okay. - So there's that. Both found guilty of that. Tony is sentenced to, you sir, may fuck off two years in prison, and Anita's sentenced to, you fuck off to 16 months in prison. She got sentenced. - Almost two years, Jesus. - Almost two years. While in jail, County Jail awaiting transport to the Snake River State Penitentiary, Tony passes a note to the sheriff's deputy. - Yeah. - Okay, he said, in this note, I do not know if it was a dream, a vision, or voices. Was told that Anita and I would be in an accident, and then he promised to tell the deputy, quote, where the dead bodies are, that Anita hit in exchange for not killing us. And then he said, Anita did not do it on purpose. It was an accident. This hasn't happened in reality. - Oh, there's no bodies. - There's no bodies. There's no anything. He's saying, I don't know if it was a dream, a vision, or voices, or it was real, but I was told that Anita and I would be in an accident, there's gonna be dead bodies. So he's trying to make a future deal, where if you don't kill me, I'll tell you where these future dead bodies are when they happen. Okay, that's the note. And then he probably gave him a wink, like, right? Yeah, he got you. We got you. And I get extra ramen noodles, okay. So while in prison, he kept up regular contact with Anita. He wrote to her every day that they were in jail and professed his love for her and all that kind of thing. She's let out in 2013, Anita is. And when she's let out, by the way, her parents said she had threaded eyebrows and her hair and tight braids. She went straight, she went prison quick. - Yes, she did. - She got out of the year and she's like, "I'm in." She got a job at Dickinson Frozen Foods, which is a, they hire a lot of felons this place. It's an onion processing plant in Fruitland, Idaho. - Oh, god damn it. - Only felons will work at the onion processing plant. That's rough. - She smells terrific. - Now she talks to her family a little bit about possibly wanting a divorce in 2013. And her family said he would sweet talk her and tell her that he wouldn't do it again. And she was a rescuer. She had such a big heart. She always found a man who needed fixing. There you go. 2014, this is nearing the end of his prison sentence for Tony. The psychiatric board, one of the members requested a spot for him at multiple residential facilities and all of them rejected him, okay? One of them run by Lifeways in Ontario called McNary Place. It's medical director, Dr. John Bates, by the way. Remember this name, Dr. John Bates. He grew up with Tony in halfway. He knew halfway, he knew him from halfway Oregon when he lived on the dairy farm. Bates's father was the principal of the high school. And Dr. John Bates had played on the football team with Tony. - He loves him. - So he said he can't be in one of my facilities 'cause it's not fair. - That's right, that's a conflict for sure. - He called the past relationship an unavoidable conflict. That couldn't be avoided, so. April 21st, 2014, he's released from the state prison and transferred to the Oregon State Hospital. And I guess it underwent a $458 million renovation. - Wow. - Oh yeah, they changed the whole fucking joint here. They could not find a community health center, one of these halfway house type places to take his case. So there was little opportunity of him getting released here. As long as he remained under the jurisdiction of the board, which was another 50 years, he could be in the hospital forever for scrap metal charges. - Golly. - So he said the only way he could get out was a full discharge. So in April of 2014, he says that he told doctors and social workers, quote, "I know I don't have a mental illness. "I'm fine, I need to be let out of the thing, released, I know." In April of 2016, the court, the county court, vacates both of their theft convictions, by the way. Him and Nita, they vacate their convictions. I don't know why, I guess, on appeals here, I've read the whole appeal, but the murder coming up is much more interesting than a scrap metal appeals case, so. - Somehow it was overturned anyway. - It's overturned, they were already out, so who gives a shit? Gee, thanks guys. I already got my eyebrows threaded and fucking my scalp hurts from these braids, but thanks, fuck. Okay, December 7th, 2016, he takes his big swing here. He gets a state doctor will testify in front of this board that Tony has been faking mental illness for 20 years to avoid prison. - His whole life. - His whole life. He said the hearing lasted more than two hours. Montweiler testified for about eight and a half minutes. When a state official asked if he'd ever had trouble sleeping, he said, "No, I've always been able to sleep at night," which we know isn't true. - That's not true, right? - We know it's not true, but he's saying, he's totally saying and he's fine. They said, "Have you ever been depressed "or felt like life wasn't worth living?" And he said, "I've always been happy." - I love life. - I'm always happy, let me out now. - I've never cried. - Never, he said, "I mean, I've never been depressed." Never been deprived, that's crazy for anyone to say, especially someone whose mother was murdered when he was six. - Didn't depress you at all? - Not at all. - We're keeping you. - Yeah, 'cause you're fucked up in the head. You got something wrong with me. - You've got the time you ran over that dog, no? - Never that, I love that. So when the guy pressed and said, "You've never had any trouble getting out of bed "and going about your activities," he said, "No, I've always showed up for work. "I've always been Johnny on the spot." - Okay. - So he said that his lawyer in the kidnapping case back in the day when all this insanity stuff started, gave him a copy of the DSM manual. The psychiatric diagnostic manual. - Gave him that. - Gave him a copy and told him to feign insanity. Find something fucking, here are your options of things you can be. - Okay. - Pick one of those and do it. So that's what he says. He said, "As for the hearing of the voices "of deceased loved ones," he told the board, quote, "I basically made that up to, "I guess make myself sound crazy. "I didn't hear anything. "I had no choice or I had a choice. "Either I could go to prison "or I could take an insanity plea and go to the hospital. "All I got to do is make myself sound like I'm crazy "and that's the route I took. "I've been using the system and just, I'm done." - Okay. - So, yeah, that's fucking wild here. Wow. A state psychologist warned the board that family members would be targets should he become violent, by the way, again. It's gonna be family members again, so just so you know. - We weren't close to him, yeah. - His attorney objected and asserted that for the first time now, "I'm telling you I've been fooling doctors, "I'm not gonna hurt anybody." So, that's very interesting. One of the psychiatric review boards director, Alison Bort, said he lied about it. He malingered, that's his testimony that he didn't actually have a mental disorder. I think it was devastating to everyone in that, in that that was the decision that had to be made. I think if there was any way the board could have held on to him, they would have. He was dangerous, but not because of a qualifying mental disorder. He's a dick, but we don't pay 18 grand a month or whatever for dicks. So, they said there was never any indication he was experiencing active symptoms, and he revealed to me that he was taking medication just to keep up the reasonable deception. And they said it would be very difficult to hide a serious mental illness for two years, and they said the last two years he's been in prison, he hasn't taken any fucking, any pills or anything, so he's been fine. So, December 2016, it's a discharge hearing. They asked him, why now? Why is it just coming out now that United lied initially? And he said, well, he was on the outside, he could work and still stay in the group home and not have to pay rent or anything like that. So, he said, under the boards, you know, care, he said, you have privileges. In some ways you get special treatment. He goes, but I can't get into that now. I'm in the hospital, let me out. Yeah, so they said, okay, and they release him there. He's discharged from the hospital. Okay, I mean, I'm dead. Yep, the board's chair said, I don't even know where to start. Well, maintaining a lie for 20 years, they said he lived rent-free. She said, I mean, that's troubling on all sorts of levels. I'm assuming somebody in the system might do forensic look and figure out what the hell happened. But as of now, you're discharged, that's what they said. Oh boy. Yeah, my hope is that you'll do the right thing. I'm sincerely worried that you won't. That's the last words they told them. Yeah, get on out of here now. Anita's living in Wiser, Idaho with her parents still. That's where she is. In the upstairs apartment, working, raising two kids, working at the Dickinson onion place. And she had a new medication recently that her parents said, it's like a light switch, man. They said, well, gave us back our old anemic. Oh, that's great. She found whatever works for her chemistry that is the right man. It's a problem a lot of times with mental illness. It takes years to figure out the right medication and the right balance and the right. And then all of a sudden it doesn't work anymore. It's so fucked. It's so hard, really hard, man. So that's the worst. So she would help cook and do dishes at Thanksgiving and bake sugar cookies at Christmas. Her mother said she was very thoughtful, just wonderful. In January here, she tells her mom, I'm so happy and we settled things and mom said they had a big conversation. They settled things and said they loved each other and everything was great. Tony, though, the problem is when he gets out in December, gets a job at Dickinson Frozen Foods. Really? Yeah, I mean, he says it's the only place that'll hire felons, you know? She's Benita's mad. She doesn't want them around. You know, they've been, they're in a dispute. They divorced while he was in the hospital and later on, she charged $1,700 in phone bills, loan payments and various Amazon orders to his debit card. She, she and he's pissed. Some of it was without his permission. There's a, then while they're at work, they get in a fucking argument over this. There's a police report and everything. They had said the couple got in a fight on the plant floor at Dickinson amongst the onions. About Amazon orders. Where Tony threatened her with releasing sexual videos of her he had in his possession. Dude. Oh my God. Jesus Christ. She reported to human resources. She went to fucking HR for this. He said he's got pictures of my tits. No, that he's, he might kill me. Oh, what? She went to HR and goes, my ex-husband who also works here might kill me. So can you not put us on the same shift? That's right, yeah. Yeah, I guess on December 30th, they met up at a McDonald's and it wasn't a good meeting, apparently. About the whole debit card debacle here. Holy shit. Now in these weeks too, Tony is trying to intimidate her, like talking shit about her on Facebook. You know, putting on her shit like that, making a point of being in her vicinity all the time and then making loud derogatory comments about her. People from the plant would walk her to her car after work to make sure. She's that concerned, yeah. She's that fucking concerned about the whole thing, which makes, honestly, she probably should be. Yeah, well, if there's that much of a concern though, then more people should be looking out, you know? I would fucking hope so. They don't seem to be. He shouldn't be working there. No, he's living at his brother's house in Emmet, Idaho. He's living at Monty's house again, but he's staying with his new girlfriend, Nicole Krill. On January 8th of 2017, he changed his Facebook status to quote, "In a relationship," and wrote to one friend, "Time to enjoy life and be happy." But I guess he had, since Christmas, he hasn't been able to sleep very well. And he had told a psychiatrist earlier, "My sleep is one of my major warning signs, like when I kidnap Rosa." So when he's not sleeping, he knows his brain isn't working right. Yeah. Now, January 9th, 2017, around 4 a.m., he told his girlfriend, Tony does it, he's going over to Monty's house. He takes off driving his Dodge truck. About 5.30 a.m., one of the neighbors of Bud and Susan Harmon, where Anita lives, they spot his truck parked on a side street, right in the area. Yeah. Okay. Police will find a little while later, Anita's beat up Toyota Forerunner, a half a mile from her home, in the middle of the road, headlights on keys in the ignition still. Like, people were fucking zoomed to space, just beamed up to outer space. It spun out and people disappeared. In the middle of the road, it's just sitting there, it's literally in the middle of the road, like somebody cut them off and made them get out of the car, a gunpoint or something. He ended up, he has her. Yeah. He has her, Tony grabs Anita and in Wiser, and drives her about 20 miles across the state border to Oregon and gets to Ontario. They stop at a Sinclair gas station in Ontario. He pre-pays for $40 worth of diesel, goes inside, gets two bottles of water, and says, "Have a nice day to the clerk," and all that shit literally is friendly. Goes outside, it's dark and cold out, by the way. It's cold, this is a cold area, the country, and it's January. The roads are, there's a big snow storm had come the weekend before, there's big snow banks everywhere. Now, the fuel attendant is an older guy, Vietnam veteran in his 70s, named Michael McIntyre. He is the guy who does the gas pumping here. Oh, he does it. Gas, 'cause I think it's like Jersey, Oregon. Don't they pump your gas for you there? I don't know, I haven't. I've never driven there, we Uber around there. So, this guy is waiting to fill up the pickup, outside, 'cause Tony went into pre-pay, and this guy's standing outside to have a click on the thing so he can pump it. Oh, Christ, 2017, this guy's got a Cummins diesel, he's doing it, man. He's doing just fine. So, he hears some sounds coming from the cab, this guy, McIntyre. And he looks into the fucking, into the cab, and in the passenger seat, holding up her arms with her wrists bound to the seatbelt with plastic zip ties, his fucking knee to. This sounds familiar, huh? She said, help me, help me. And Tony walks out of the door, just then of the store, toward the truck. McIntyre said, just give me a minute, I have to go inside. I gotta go tell somebody in there. So, this guy, he goes inside real quick and tells the store clerk to call the police. He says, call the cops, there's a lady tied up in that truck, and then he goes back outside. Tony, here, he's acting real casual. He goes outside and sits in the open door of the truck with his leg hanging out of the open door, waiting for the gas to be pumped. Like, he doesn't have a tied up woman in here, you know? So, it gets to $40, and he starts to get to go to leave. He's like, okay, fires the truck up. The pump guy, McIntyre, tells him to, hey, hold on a minute. And Tony says, why? He said, well, the cops are coming. Dumb thing to fucking say, he could've done. He could, Nave and Johnson, okay. A movie called The Jerk, 'cause the guy's so fucking dumb, was able to hold criminals there for multiple minutes while he went back and forth to phone calls. This guy can't figure out one thing to say other than the cops are coming. 'Cause that's what he tells him, the cops are coming. So, Montweiler, they just fucking, he said he reached below, this is the thing. Okay, he doesn't take off. They said that he stared at McIntyre for a minute, then reached beneath the seat. Pulls out, they said he came up with a wide-eyed, crazy expression, pulls up a filet knife, like a fishing filet knife, and stabs her in the neck, stabs her in the fucking neck with it, just, I mean, a real bad one. So, McIntyre goes, holy shit, he goes, he just cut her fucking throat. He starts freaking out out there, obviously. There's a customer inside who just bought a box of donuts. He throws the donuts down, runs out there to help. He said that when he got to the pickup, he could see that the area around Nita's jugular was, quote, just all gone. Oh, no. Big slasher throat, I mean, fuck, so. The customer and McIntyre tried to pull him out of the fucking car. Are you, who's crazy in this situation? Yeah, he's been to Vietnam, and this is scarier, I think. I'm not touching that guy. But instead of even attacking them with the knife to keep them away, he fights them off with his left hand while repeatedly stabbing Nita in the chest as many times as he possibly could. How the hell? He got the door closed away from them, guns it, plows his truck through a snow bank that is not, you know, it's not the entrance to the store, just on a meeting in there. He plows his truck through that, ends up in the street, ends up in the center of Ontario, near Rusty's Pancake and Steakhouse. What? Pancake and Steak? Is it 'cause they rhyme? Anyway, he is just driving normal. Like he's obeying traffic laws and shit. A patrol car spotted him pass through an intersection at a normal rate of speed, just acting like nothing was wrong. The cops give chase. They're after him, obviously. He then turns on him a two-lane highway and fucking guns it up to 90 miles an hour. There you go, yeah. And there's, I mean, this is all snow-covered potato fields and onions and shit, that's all that's out here, and he's just fucking going. Blazing. During the, Jesus Christ, during the chase, he makes a phone call. He's 90 miles an hour, he's calling. He's in a call's girlfriend, he's late, he's probably got plans. McCall, you're not gonna believe this. He said, listen, I love you. But I'm not gonna be able to see you anymore because I just hurt Nita pretty bad. So probably not gonna see me. And his girlfriend said, I knew that he had been in the mental hospital, but I'm just as flabbergasted as everyone else. Like, I thought he was crazy, but I knew he fucking plunged knives into people. This is extra crazy. So during the police chase, that's what happened. Now he's driving 90 miles an hour with a dead woman tied to a fucking seatbelt in his car. Yeah. Running from the police. - Have you asked truck on icy roads? - A diesel on icy roads, coming the opposite direction. On the same road is a Ford excursion, which is also a big vehicle. - That's a lot of truck, yeah. - Holding two people in it, David, who's 38, and his wife, Jessica. Their last name, by the way, is Bates. - Really? - John Bates. - Yeah. Like John Bates, you know why? It's like John Bates, 'cause that's his fucking brother. That's his older brother, Dr. John Bates. - John, really? - Yes, which means that this guy probably went to, yeah. So, they're calling down. They've been married 13 years. They have five kids. - These two. - Five, okay. They're driving their Ford excursion. They're heading to work at the St. Elphonsis Medical Center in town, where David's a radiology manager, and she's an ultrasound tech. - They're unbelievable people. - Nice people. The couple usually took separate cars, but that day, because of the snow, they decided to, David said he just wanted to drive them both, so they know that they would make it safe, because he's driving. Montweiler's going 90 miles an hour in the opposite lane. He, of course, crosses over into their lane. - Oh boy. - David veers right to get away, to go onto the shoulder, but there's giant snow banks on the side. Doesn't allow him to get right and get onto the shoulder. Therefore, he, the diesel, the Dodge diesel, plows into their excursion, head on. - Oh shit. - Going 90 miles an hour. - There's nothing you can do. - Head on, nothing that gets a two lane road, nothing they could do. Now, the last thing that Jessica remembers from the collision is the sound of the change drawer smashing into the dash. She remembers the change going, and she said, and then blackout after that. When she came to, a police officer was next to her, and his lips were moving, and she didn't understand. She couldn't understand it, what he was even saying. She was asking, he was asking about the car seat. Is there a, where's the car? Is there a fucking someone in that car seat? Is there a kid that got injected or something? And she couldn't answer. She couldn't process anything yet. She said, I couldn't even remember my name. She then blacked out again, and then she regained consciousness in the ambulance. And she said, now she felt pain all over her, and everything like that. First thing she said is, where's David? Where's David? Where's David? And the medic just told her, I don't know, but right now I'm here to help you. I'm trying to help you. I don't know about, he's in a different ambulance or whatever. So, she ends up surviving with a concussion, three broken ribs, a fractured hand, and a collapsed lung. - Mm, brain damage and pain. - Fucking, oh yeah, hit hard in the head, everything like that. She's in the emergency room at the hospital they work at. - Yes, she works that. - And she's saying, where's my husband? Where's my husband? And they told her, they didn't answer. They were just working on her injuries and everything like that. But she insisted, where's my husband? He was pronounced dead at the scene. He didn't even make it to the hospital. - Oh, no. - Yeah, he's dead at the scene. He had her really bad, he was driving, and it just, it was bad. It was a bad scene. - And he veered right, so he took more of it than she did probably. - Oh yeah, he got hit with the brunt of it. - He hit the corner of that fucking pillar, absolutely. - It crushed into him and everything. It's really, really bad. Now, Tony, because he's a crazy fucking asshole, suffered only minor injuries. - Why would he hurt at all? - Minor, fucking two people almost died. Crashing anything going 90, minor injuries. Only a real asshole would fucking be that. Oh my God, they said that night he's in the hospital and he asked for a cup of ice at one point and occasionally complained he was in a little bit of pain. He told the nurse that I'm in the hospital 'cause I fell down. - She knows, right? - Well, yeah, the nurse said, no, you were in a really crazy car accident where you hit somebody going 90 miles an hour head on. And he said, quote, that's not true. Don't go there because I'm here because I fell. - Don't go there. - Don't go there. Just talk to the hand, he said. He's like, I'm pulling out any of my 90s vocabulary I get. Talk to the hand, mister. Don't go there, I'll tell you something. Holy shit. - Yeah. - So the crazy part is obviously the irony that Dr. John fucking Bates is David's brother. - Right, and Dr. John Bates wanted probably to, would have said, keep him in jail. - Not in jail in the thing rather than be released. He could have been under their supervision and not out in the world doing what he was doing. This, they said that fucking, wow, oh, John was Bates's younger brother. So David was the older brother. John said it's just turned into this ironic nightmare. If I had taken him into McNary, he'd still be under the board and all of this would not have happened. - I'd still have my brother. - Can you imagine that? How the fuck you would feel? That's insane. So they searched Tony's truck here. They find an empty package of latex gloves. Heavy duty zip ties, a roll of duct tape, a hundred feet of rope, a small pair of binoculars, a black nylon scabbard on the driver's side floor and next to the passenger seat, the bloody filet knife. He had a plan. - Yeah, he knew it was doing. - He was gonna hold up somewhere. He had binoculars to see what people were coming. - And he probably used those to find her. - Exactly that too, they probably scoped her out. - He stalked the shit out of this poor woman. - So he's going for the insanity defense, obviously. Even though he just said I'm not crazy at all. - Yeah, and that's a lot of preparation for a guy that's not crazy. - Well, that's the thing is you can prepare and still be crazy, that's premeditation doesn't mean, yeah, it doesn't mean that you're, it just means that you don't know what you did was wrong. That's crazy. That's the difference. - You can prepare for shit you don't think is wrong. - You could be a genius and have his preparation, but you just don't know what's wrong to do it. You think it's fine, that's not a, you thought you were killing an alien, not a person. You know what I mean, like that kind of shit. So it's very technical in the law, it's weird. That's fucking strange. And I've read so much about it for this case, it's crazy. So they said he's going for insanity. This is when he was going for insanity a few years back now, this is six, seven years ago. They said the insanity defense right now is pursued in fewer than 1% of all criminal trials. - Really? - Now a lot of that would be 'cause they're, those are probably smaller things if you get arrested for dealing something, you're not gonna plead their sanity for that. Yeah, that's all trials. It's only successful about one quarter of the time. So one quarter of 1% of these trials get found this way. So basically no people get found criminally insane. So the controversies over it, they say, tend to mask a deeper crisis of mental illness in the criminal justice system because that's the problem here. According to the most recent estimates, 30%, 37% of prisoners and 44% of jail inmates have been told by a mental health professional at some point in their lives that they have some sort of disorder. - Okay. - They got a problem, but they're not treated in there as the issue because, you know, it's not what we do. It's not what jail does. So at the same time, they said 200,000 ex-offenders with severe mental illnesses are currently living in communities throughout the US. They said about 77% of them will be arrested in the next five years for more violent crimes, probably. So they said that it's hard. So there's a big newspaper piece here. This is the Mallor Enterprise. Now the Mallor Enterprise ended up winning a bunch of awards for, yeah, for getting information that the board was trying to keep private. So they got a bunch of like journalism awards for making public information here. Now, one problem is the Mallor Enterprise made a series with ProPublica titled, "A Six System, Repeat Attacks After Pledging Insanity," and suggested that the board in Oregon was endangering the public. - Okay. - They said there was a piece filled with statistics that appeared to show that people freed by Oregon officials after being found criminally insane and charged with new felonies more often than convicted criminals that are released from state prison. Saying it's worse, but then last the year after that, they did a review and found that the underlying data and assertions in the reporting amounted to a, they had to do a series-wide retraction. They said, "Well, we fucked up, it's not that at all." They discovered that the coverage dramatically overestimated the frequency of which people discharged by the board commit new felonies. They said actually the rates of offenders being released from prison and committing what felonies was way, way, way higher. They said the errors were due to a scarcity of available data and misreading of state records. On Twitter, one of the people that works for the paper there said, "I take full and direct responsibility "for this tremendously damaging journalistic blunder. "This just doesn't represent the spirit of those "who labor day in and day out at this newspaper. "We will atone." So they fucked up. - Yeah, they tried to say that the crazy people are more dangerous than the people that are career criminals. - Yeah, at least in the Oregon board thing, but instead it's, it comes out that that's not true at all, but June 20th, 2017, Tony is ordered to the state hospital to determine if he's fit for trial. - Okay. - The Oregon psychiatric board is suing to block the release of records of his at this point too. But yeah, then the governor, Kate Brown of Oregon, stepped in and ordered the records released. So, fucking release them. People deserve, yeah, which makes sense. This is Dr. Octavio Choi, which sounds like he's mixing two different ethnicities. A board that's interesting. I want a name like that. - Mexican Asian. - I want a name, well, I got a long Italian last name. Just give me like an Asian first name, I guess it'd be fine. - Yeah, yeah. - I mean, they call me Kim Petrogalo. - Kim Petrogalo, I'll be, I don't care, that's fine. So this guy's a board certified forensic psychiatrist and director of the Oregon State Hospital's Forensic Evaluation Service. Fuck, imagine having to tell everyone that. What do you do for a living? Okay, hold on, just look at my card, I can't, it's just a lot. - Read this. - He made a 37 page report on Tony's mental state and sent it to the court. The report concluded that Tony needed hospital care before he could assist in his own defense. He wrote that he had based his conclusions on a six hour interview of Tony between December, or in September 2017, and thousands of pages of mental health and legal records. Choi found that Tony had attempted to exaggerate impairment for the purpose of a favorable outcome, presumably so he would be sent to the hospital. He cast doubt on Tony's claim that he was hearing voices, noting the time when he went in front of the board and said, "That's all bullshit." So they said he also that Tony provided highly inconsistent accounts of these voices and when they started. They said when he would be pressed about the voices, he would become quite angry. So anyway, in September 2017, eight months after the murder, this Choi guy reinterviews him again and kind of has the same thought here. During the interview, Tony once again claimed to have heard voices since his mother's death. The first time he said he heard, he was fishing at the edge of a creek on his uncle's farm when he was six, and a voice which sounded like his mother softly whispered Anthony to him. Oh my God. He thought it might have been his aunt calling from the house, but when he ran to the house to check, it was empty, no one was there. He said, "The voices continued into adulthood. "Sometimes it would be his mother gently telling him, "You'll be all right, you'll be okay." He said, "Then there were other voices "coming from the outside that were loud and critical." He said, "They yell at me and everything." They're like, he said, quote, "They're like assholes." We have never, ever heard. Someone described their fucking delusional head voices as like assholes. They're like assholes. That is fucking. He also believed that the staff at the hospital he went to for his injuries after the accident had inserted a metal device into his neck which connected to a cord that ran up to his brain. Broadcast my thoughts. Well, he said, "Since then his memories "have been wiped clean." That's what happened. Yeah, most recently he suspected that a lieutenant at the county jail could read his thoughts. They said, "Why do you think that?" He said, "Well, 'cause the voices are telling me "that she can read my thoughts." Well, that'll do it. That will do it here. So January 11th, 2018, is he competent now? - Yes. - Maybe? - Yeah, that was bad. - Well, the choice says this guy has, you know, almost certainly told lots of lies to get to the point he's at now. There are lots of tests and things you can do to kind of back up your intuition, but in the end, it's kind of a gut feeling. They said he's not fit to help in his own defense. So he's not fit. Susan and Bud, I need his parents. They said, 'cause in this, by the way, he's brought into these hearings, he looks insane. He's got a big beard, he's got it bald in the middle of crazy hair. He's in a wheelchair, all slumped over, won't look up at anything. And the father, Bud, said, "He sure looked crazy." I mean, just based on looks. He said, "Never once lifted his head." But Susan doesn't believe it. Mom says, "It looked like he was faking being mentally ill." - And she's insane. - Okay. Yeah. If he goes back to some kind of mental facility, he's going to be doing the same thing he got away with before. So they said they were raising Anita's youngest child who was now 15. And she said, "You know, we got a kid here, "and it's anniversary of the daughter's death." And fuck, man. They said, "They brought flowers "to the Sinclair gas station on the one-year anniversary." That's not where you want to go to your daughter's remains at the Sinclair station. - That's not a good place to be. - No, she said, "When I walked in, "the clerk gave, just gave me a great big hug. "She had wanted to call me, "but just didn't know what to say." A lot of people just don't know what to say. - Why was, okay. - 2018, he still doesn't want to go to trial. He says he's had too lousy of a childhood to go to trial. That's crazy. Yeah. - Same as his man. - Hey, that's what I mean. It's been rose rock. It was shitty. I didn't feel like I could do anything now. Defense attorney said they combed through his past and they found a life of abuse and neglect, and his mother was murdered and, you know, all this type of shit here. He said that he's so damaged, he's unable to defend himself and, you know, what are you gonna do here with this fucking guy? He's a mess. So, 2018, he's sent, ordered again, to determine if he's fit for trial. This keeps going on and on and on. And they keep talking about the unreliability of Mr. Montweiler's self-reported history. Yeah, and then they say they're usually, there's no clear, no brain or path. When he does say he doesn't know or doesn't understand, is that reliable or not? Right, and that's the other part. That's what we're asking you, motherfucker, you went to school for this. I'm a jerk off comedian who dropped out the 12th grade. I don't fucking know, you tell us. But he's so unreliable, how do you believe any of the bullshit that he says? Apart from my dad killed my mom. We know that's true, but what the fuck else are we supposed to take into account was truth. We can't. He's such a bullshitter and you stab to him in the fucking neck. And I can tolerate the smell of onions. That's the only things we can know for sure here. So, they said he should be properly considered highly dangerous and thus would be inappropriate for community-based restoration, Joy said. The ruling, the judge said, quote, "This case is close. "I have a serious concern "about the defendant's potential for malingering, "but on balance, I don't believe I have a basis to contest. "And I do agree with Dr. Choi's report, "and I'm going to define the defendant unable to aid and assist, "and I will be sending him to the hospital for treatment." The families are super pissed at this. By the way, Jessica Bates is going to sue the psychiatric security review board and the state also. And that's going to be later dismissed by a judge, though. It's dismissed, yeah. The attorneys were arguing that Tony's discharge hearing was improperly conducted and that board members were insufficiently trained to determine his mental condition and that the decision to discharge created foreseeable risk to the public. - Yeah, even if we had a trial about this. If John Bates's shit has a conflict of interest based on letting him out, he's certainly got a conflict of interest now. He can't say that he's crazy because your brother's dead. - Yeah, he's fucking dead. So the judge ruled that there's no evidence of the PSRB board misconduct or impropriety, and it was not reasonably foreseeable that upon discharge that he would be involved in an auto collision with the Bates. There's no way to see that 'cause that was not part of the whole thing. I was running away from something else. So they did that. Now December 19th, 2018, the state hospital reports him fit for trial. He's ready. - Wow. - Next month, the judge declares him all spiffed up, ready to go, his little bow tie is straight and he's ready to fucking get fucking roll here. - That's good after it. - He pleads not guilty to all charges. I am not guilty. I couldn't do any of this shit. So I didn't do anything. So that's February 22nd. By February 26th, he has changed his fucking mind. - What does he wanna plead to? - Now he wants to plead guilty to everything. - Okay. - Changed his mind because they told him, dude, people watched you do it. - We've got so many witnesses. - You can plead guilty but insane or whatever, but you can't just say you didn't fucking do it. That's crazy. So during sentencing, Anita's son, Lucas, testifies here. And he said, "All I can do is pray for your tormented soul." That's what he told him. The sister here gets on the stand. This is Anita's sister. And because they have to make like a human being out of her, this is who my sister was, so you can know what it's worth so they can sentence him. So they said they talked about her joys, her family and dinners and animals and reading and even taking a long bath and shit like that. Just the little things. They said she likes salt water, taffy and making homemade cookies. Then she said, "The cookies often came with colorful sprinkles on top." And this is a quote, "Anita loves sprinkles." This isn't a criminal trial to determine the length of a man's sentence. Anita loves sprinkles. Yeah. And I think that says a lot about a person, how you feel about sprinkles. A lot about, I mean, I was gonna say. It's an interesting thing to say. She then said that while going through her sister's belonging, she found more than a hundred bottles of sprinkles in her house, jars of sprinkles. She really wanted to put sprinkles on everything. I'm gonna sprinkle the world, goddamn it. That's a, she's right. That's a fucking great person. By the way, I, there's nothing more I love than fucking chocolate or rainbow sprinkles on any form of ice cream. The ice cream is just a delivery device for the sprinkles 'cause that's all I want. They do look great on everything. Yeah. Especially when they're soft and not too stale. Yeah, they don't, if they don't crunch. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, yeah. I don't wanna, they're soft. Oh, they're so fucking good. But they just make everything look fucking happy. Oh, they're great. She's a, she's got a great point. That's a very weird thing to say, but. It's super strange, but also I can't, it's, I mean, I can't disagree with the lady. That's what I'm telling you. She's talking sprinkles. I'm like, I fucking love sprinkles. I gotta be honest with you, if someone comes up to me and offers me sprinkles, I'm gonna go, that's probably a cool person. I'm sitting there with my fucking book open and I'm taking notes of this trial. I'm looking at her fucking cock-eyed when she first says it. And then I'm like, you know, this lady's making sounds. She's talking to us all this stuff. And then she just goes, I need to love sprinkles. So I'm gonna be like, what? Is that the name of a horse or something? Is that a horse's name? Sprinkles? Is that her dog? Oh no, sprinkles. Well, fuck, I like sprinkles too. All right, I'm feeling you now. I get it now, okay. All right. Oh man. The sister goes on to say that these crimes have terrorized her. She said, I used to be fearless. Now I am a fearful redhead. I have anxiety. I don't sleep at night. I don't know what her hair color matters. She's a very interesting lady. I like her a lot. Yeah, Stacy's cracking me up here. I want her to just wander around me and say wild shit. She's great. It seems random, it's fucked, right? She's just gonna-- Just a worrisome redhead. Yeah. Okay. Hope you put your snow tires on 'cause it's July. All right. Cool. Sounds good, honey. I don't know. Well, so then Stacey says this. Quote, I have no words of anger toward Tony. God loves Tony as much as he loves me. Which, if you're a religious person, that's how you're fucking supposed to handle is shit. You're not supposed to go well. I think, you know, I should pick the vengeance that form of everything because that's how some people do it. So that's nice, actually. At one point, at one point, she began to weep and she said, I wonder what her body felt like when he stabbed her. I hate that I wasn't there to protect her. Jessica gets up there, too. Jessica says it's Jessica Bates. It's obvious you caused a huge amount of hurt and loss. It still feels surreal. I want you to know that I forgive you. I really do hope this will give you pause to stop and seek God. She said, never in a million years did I dream I'd be married to someone so wonderful and have five children. I didn't want to lose David so early. And then she looked at Tony and said, I want you to know, Anthony, from my lips, I forgive you. Wow. Which is, I'm saying, that's the right way to do it. I mean, there's a right way and there's a fucking way. That's a torturous shit to hear, though, somebody that's seen you're about to do it. And you're sick, yeah. You can't even be like, oh, fuck you too, then. You can't even do that. You know, you cut someone off in traffic and they fucking stop, go like this and then wave at you. And you go, well, fuck me. All right, well, I can't even yell at this person. Yeah, I forgive you. Now go do all the time that they're about to give you. That's a fuck, that's a burner. I'm not even mad at you, so have a good life. Their son got up there also. He baits his son and he said that. Yeah, he said that he couldn't put it into words and all of that. They got a nephew of David's and he said, David was a great man in so many ways. There wasn't anything David wouldn't have done for someone and all of that. The prosecutor here, Dave Goldthorp is his name. He said, there's no punishment under the laws of the state of Oregon harsh enough for Anthony Montweiler. No amount of time in prison could ever even come close to making these families whole after what he did to them. He then called him evil and he said, our purpose, he said, even if he gets up for parole someday, he said, I'll be there, the families will be there. He said, our purpose will be to make sure the defendant never again walks this earth a free man. He said, he should disappear into history, his legacy being one of jealousy, abuse, of greed, of deception, of evil. And after today, Marlar County and these families' legacies will be that they fought against evil and that we locked it away where it will never again harm an innocent member of our society. Oh boy. He fucking threw the mic down. That's not even a drop. He fucking bashed him in the forehead with it afterwards. It's useless after this. Then he said, he is abusive. He's a horrible human being, a horrible human being. And his face should never be seen by any of these good people who have spoken to you today. Wow, Tony gets up and speaks. Oh what? Yeah, what are you going to do? I beg. Oh fuck. So just spouting crazy shit, broccoli cheddar soups in my pants. I got it everywhere. Who wants a scoop? What do you say? He said, I can't express the right words of sorrow. I have caused too much pain to say I am sorry isn't nearly enough. Now this is under the plea deal. There's a plea agreement for this here. You sir may fuck off. Life sentence for killing Anita, but eligible for parole in 25 years. So when he's 78, when he's 78, he would though, when he was paroled for that, he will have to serve another 10 years of the 20 year sentence that he's been agreed to for Bates. So he's looking at at least 35 years without parole. He would also then get a three year sentence for injuring Jessica Bates, which would be served as well. So he's not, yeah, 38 years at least until parole. He's got. And he's got to be paroled on the first murder before he can start that other time. Yeah, yes, he has to actually be paroled, which I mean, that could be when he's 85 and then they go, oh, another 10 years, turning around asshole. So, yeah, apparently the families of Anita Harmon and David Bates had sued the state and the parole and the board. They sued them for $3.75 million for the negligence and it didn't work there as well. And so he is in prison as we speak right now. Yeah. Thank fuck for that. No kidding. He's put away and I don't know. I mean, here's a guy who, what can he say? 'Cause he's obviously crazy. He's obviously mentally ill. He's mentally ill. He's sick. He's a sick man. But does he not know right from wrong? 'Cause that's the law's definition. I don't think, I think he knows. I think he knows, yeah. Can he control himself? Possibly not. I can't. But he knows the difference between right and wrong. So. I think that's the problem. Is that he's, he's mentally ill enough to have a dangerous personality. And I don't think he knows how to control it. Therefore, we can't ever let that man out. And he's a con man on top of it. Right. He's conned everybody always including the board for 20 fucking years in the state and everybody else so he could get free rent. Like he's a scumbag. He's a scumbag. If he's any more with it, James, he'd be a danger to the entire country. Not just one person close to him. Yes, he's just a danger to his family at this point. But he would be a danger to any and everybody if he wasn't. Absolutely. Yeah, this guy, I don't know. What do you, this, this is where this is the gray area of society where we don't exactly know what the fuck to do with these people. 'Cause they're obviously nuts. Right. But we can't. He's with it or not to be a career criminal. That's what I'm saying. Exactly. But he also is hardcore bipolar and all that. So it's like, okay, well, what do you do? Well, you put him in prison. But then we don't really have, I don't know. We don't have anything in prison. We don't have the infrastructure for that. But even, even when he's on the road to the problem. Right. Well, even when he's on the road to being a functional member of society owning a business, he's manipulating that too. He's scamming. He's scheming. He's just, that was his second time getting busted for scrap metal steel stealing. You know what I mean? Like the lowest of the world. Yeah. Scrap metal stealing. It's people just picking up off the side of the road. It's free for fuck's sake. And you got, you stole it? Yeah, holy man. This fucking guy, yeah, I don't know what, 'cause when you look over his court stuff, he's constantly being arrested. From 1990, from the time he's 22, up until the time he's in prison, he is constantly in police custody. There's a problem. He's getting sued. He's fucking being arrested. He's a fucking issue. So there he is, everybody. That is Ontario, Oregon. And a fucking crazy story. Am I right? Jesus Christ. I think we hit you hard this week. - I don't think, it feels like that was a systemic issue in that family. - In that family. - Yeah, no, it's not gonna stop. It's what I hope his kids are okay. Because now, you know, his kids, dad's gone again. - Emilio! - Emilio! Are you okay, Emilio? - I hope you're okay. - I hope you're much better off without your dad. And, you know, I hope, 'cause mom's okay. She lived and everything, so mom raised her. - Right to be your stepfather. - Come, or didn't. Just didn't fucking, just kept you away from crazy people. Either one. Hope you're all right, Emilio. So, there you go, everybody. That is Terry Oregon. If you enjoyed that show, tell everyone about it. Get on whatever app you're on that you listen to podcasts on and give us five stars. Say something nice, doesn't matter what you say, we don't care. - Yeah, okay. - Just anything. And we're very, very happy. Yeah, Emilio! A lot of O's, though. We require at least five O's if you're gonna do that. - Yeah. - So, do that and help us out like that. Follow us on social media. We are at Small Town Murder on Instagram. We are at crime, not crime in sports. We're at Small Town Pod on Facebook and @murdersmall on Twitter. You also can certainly head over to ShutUp and give me murder dot com. - Oh, yes. - Tickets for live shows there, guys. Not only, also tons of merch, by the way. New stuff is up all the time. If you haven't looked in a while, tons of new cool shirts up there. But coming up September 20th is our next show. We got the summer off. And then we're gonna be in Minneapolis, which is one of our favorite places to go perform too. We fucking love Minneapolis, especially in that time before winter. We're gonna get like the last not cold yet before winter comes. And it's really nice. We have a really good time there. We can't wait. It's at the state theater, which is this beautiful fucking theater that seems way too nice for us. So before they realize that it's too nice for us and kick us out, get your tickets now. Do it, sell it out. It'll be our biggest show ever if you do sell it out. Next night, we're in Milwaukee at the PAPs. That's almost sold out. So get your tickets immediately if you want to go. Otherwise, there'll be none left. We also have Kansas City. We added more seats. So there's tickets there. Also Austin, Texas, Oklahoma City. You guys fucking beg us to come there. Sell these fucking tickets. We get so much come to Austin, come to Austin, come to Austin. Buy tickets, buy some tickets. Buy some fucking tickets, Austin. - We did it your turn. - I swear to God, if they don't fucking sell that out, I will never go back there again for anything. No, I'm just kidding. I'm fucking around. - Come to Austin. - Come to Austin, come there. Also Boston in New York too, because those are selling pretty fast and they're in December. So get your tickets ahead of time on those. Shut up and give me murder.com. We can't wait for that shit. We're super jacked for it. And then also, Patreon. - You want Patreon? - Patreon.com/crimeandsports. If you don't know, P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/crimeinsports. That's the other podcast that we do that you should be listening to but judging by the numbers, you're not. So, judging by the difference between these two shows, very few of you are actually listening to that. Like a thing of them. - But thank you to the ones that are. - Thank you to the ones that are. You are the best. - Everybody else, please press play. - Please give it a shot. So anyway, head over there. Patreon.com/crimeandsports. Anybody $5 a month or above, you can either get a cup of coffee or hundreds of VAC episodes immediately of bonus stuff you've never heard. And then new ones every other week. And this week is no different. We have one crime in sports, one's full-time murder. You get all of it right here. This week for crime in sports, we're gonna do something that has nothing to do with sports. We're gonna talk about some of the most horrible industrial accidents in history. - Oh boy. - To body counts. Most people eviscerated in the shortest amount of time. Shit like that. Really weird stuff I'll tell you that's, ooh, you're gonna go at work, everyone's gone. Ah, fucking OSHA's a pain in the ass. Trust us. - Here's why. - We'll tell you why it exists. And you go, okay, it's written in fucking bones and blood, it's disgusting. Then for small-town murder, we're gonna talk about a very weird subject. The Cannibal Cop. It was a guy in New York City Cop about 10 years ago who said he wanted to eat women and do a bunch of shit, did a lot of like army hammer type shit. But he didn't actually eat anybody, so we're wondering, you know, can you use their charges? Can you be fired? Where has that go on? So we'll talk all about that. Is it illegal to want to be a Cannibal? - It should be. - We'll get into all of that. That is patreon.com/crimeinsports. And you get a shout out. - Yes. - When do you get that shout out? - Oh. - I think it's right fucking now. Jimmy hit me with the names of the people who would never drive their truck 90 miles an hour head on into us, at least would try not to. Jimmy hit me with them right fucking now. - The executive producers are Hayley Walls, Ryan B. Congrats on cancer surgery. - Oh no. - That's wonderful. - Oh, did well? - I mean, the surgery's bad obviously. - Right, but getting it done and surviving, good for you, Ryan. - Yeah, fuck yeah. - Good for you. - Welcome to the team. Also, Gary Howard, Jen Mink. Jen Mink, subscribe twice, I think. - She's terrific, she gets to someone. Thank you. - Maybe, yeah. Jill King and Beverly Morrill. Thank you all. - Thank you for my present Gary as well. I appreciate it. - Oh yeah, what a guy. - Nice, thank you Gary. I really appreciate it. - You're a good dude Gary. - You really are, thank you. - Stay out of trouble and don't cause problems at the fucking showers at the lunch. - I don't cause problems at the showers. - That's amazing. - I could be anything, you really left it all for Bagley. You don't have to be peeking, is he? What's he doing in there? - Yeah, what are you doing? - Don't do that. - Say out of trouble, brother. - Other producers this week are Scarlett Horby's happy birthday. Peyton Meadows, Abigail Gathered donated twice. Thank you Abigail, that's very nice. Janice Hill, Evan Pease or Pease maybe. Atlanta Zemo, Matty Sturm, Micah Tyler, Nick Weismann, Luke G, Hayden Ferran, I think. Dark windows pod, Deb, with no last name. Astana, Astana, Astana, Kisla Kolash, Kolash. - Oh, there you go. - Sounds like a dish. David Allen, Leonie, Nailin, Tiffany Herbert, Hey Bearman. - Hair Bear. - Hair Bear. - I would have lots of-- - Shredded, shredded. - Yeah, something shredded. Murshaholic and Stroke Malone, all right. - I don't know what that is. - C-N-J, C-J, The Letter C-N-J. - Thank you, C-J. - Talk to you by C-N-J. - John Blake Kearney or Kearney, Krista Keller, Amy Weinrich, Wenrich, Michelle Mick and Izzy, Garrity. Oh, Michelle Mick and Izzy, Garrity Bates. - Hey, there you go. - If your last name is Garrity, I hope you are. Wasn't it Pat, oh, Pat Garrity, not Garrity. All right, moving on. Rosa, I, Quentin McCrudden. Bradley Powers, Tina Fogg, Samantha Ron, Angela Shimate, Ashley Roszetski. Lee Heath, Christopher, Ebeling, Lisa, Lisa, Lisa Manone, Ben Dover. There he is, the guy who sits. Everybody's been writing their name for years, Ben. - Yeah, and Dick is in you with him, too. Who they found on the same desert island together. - Hot toddy, Matt Gordon, Brooke Whitfield, Robert McNitt, Brittany A, Corey Kavanagh, Hadley Oberg, Jeremy Randolph. Larissa with no last name, Lucy Roots, Matt Spurgeon, Nick Grillo, or Grillott, Michelle O'Brien, Nikki with no last name, Amber Dryer. Missy, Deadlow, Sarah Baker, Petty Killer. Jen with no last name, Mary Catherine, just Randy Lauren with no last name, John Ratz, Andrea Bacon, Elizabeth Price, Allison Delotenville, Delotten, Pam Castro, Haley Phillips, Edith McGaiyanese, McGallen, McGallanes, Maggie Yannes, Maggie Sarcaz and Defender, Holly Garner, Sam, Bangie, Bangheart, Ivan, oh, there he is, I've on a full car. - Oh, see, that's who's with. - She, it's Ivana with Ben, that's who he had a bud there. Yeah, thank you. - Yeah, Ivana Fuka, that's what it is. - Andrea Mack, Holden Gonzaga's, there's also them too. - Oh, no. (laughing) - From the Gonzaga family, the whole family, yeah, I know them. - Yuri Volnov, Jeff Doris, Abby Evans, Janet Lynn, Lund, maybe, David Enscape, Myra with no last name, Dale Roberts, Justin Hager, Hedgerdorn, Ellie Johnson, Robert Wessel, Tanner, Mark Murphy, Turhan Jordan, Jordan Hill, Justin Taft, Stephen Darnell, Jeremy Haas, Sequoia Salazar, Andrea Belts, Andrew Belts, sorry, Andrew. Marissa Amma, Kevin Hudson, Roots and all, Michelle Ryan, William Gower, Janice, oh boy, Sagnis, Sagnis, Sagnis, Andrew James, John Giles, maybe Gills, Ryan McKinney, Audible, Elise, Alison, Simon and Rich, Simon Vitch, Alison M, Tyco, I think, T-Y-K-H-O, that's Tyco, Jacob, Jake, Brienne Sullivan, Tina Davila, Davila, Peter Karini, Officer Big Mac, Suzanne Kelly, Jeff Jones, Roy Watson, W-L-H, Caden, Kendrick, Skip Wiley, Nicky with no last name, Zach with no last name, Sue Bull, AMD 420, Jen Mank, that's gender, she is again. Maybe with no last name, Patty with no last name, Jeff Scott, Tara Atkins, Troy Fletcher, Stephanie with no last name, Nicholas St. James, Josh Moore, Roda, Rhonda Kirkham, Evan McKearn, Chantel Conley, Mary L. Van Tune, Amy Cartwright, Matthew Bennett, Casey Coleman, Tara with no last name, Kimberly with no last name, Darryl Schuller, Winona Cushall, Samantha Richard, Denise Parnow, Hayden Boseleve, Nicole, no, that's Noel. Noel Costalo, Cricket on tour, Jesse, Ibury, Ashley, fucking shit dammit, Oliver, Oliver, Olive Yotto. - That's all right, man, you just got a 30-game heading streak there, that was awesome. - We're getting real close. Mosai with no last name, Kevin Chitwood, Cindy Dottor, Philip Per-- - Kevin Chitwood? - Yeah, Chitwood with the-- - Oh, I see. - Thought you legit said Chitwood, I was like, somebody called themselves-- - Poor bastard herded his whole life, the bastard. - Yeah, I thought that's what you said. - Damn it. - Philip Per year, Mariah Plattkin, Beth Van Allen, Melissa Obel, John Jelvin, Chris Kay, Julie Pousstos, Pousstos, David Coyle, Adam Trout, John Warren, Jeremy Sopko, Rebecca Holra, Diana, Thomas, Tina, Butchonio, Bo-chio. - You're lucky there was no Italians that you could run there, that's what saved you. - Latin Phillips, maybe it's Layton, Brad Hinderleider, Spidey Mama 4, preceded by the other three, Sarah King, Tara Vanderpool, Kristen Anderson, Mary Beth, Southwell, Byron Day, Jessica Villarreal, Claire with no last name, Josephine Burgundy, Abel Martinez, Luis Navarete, and all of our patrons, you guys are fucking incredible. - Thank you everybody, so much for your wonderfulness, your generosity, and for just hanging out with us. We really do appreciate you. Keep hanging out with us, listen to this, listen to the crime in sports, listen to your stupid opinions too, give it a shot, because again, we can see that most of you haven't tried it, so give it a shot, it's fucking worth it, what, five minutes, you don't wanna laugh, anyone's listening to a murder show, it's five fucking minutes, all you listen to is murder? No, listen to something funny, I'm telling you, you'll piss, we dare you, brush your teeth while listening to the fucking show, you'll have toothpaste on your fucking mirrors. That is our guarantee, the toothpaste on the mirror guarantee, so check all that out, keep coming back, you wanna follow us on social media, you can do that very easily, shut up and give me murder.com, has drop down menus and you click on 'em and go right there and come and see us and hang out with us, and that's sad, everybody. Ah, until next week, it's been our pleasure. Bye! (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - If you like small town murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com/survey. - She struck him with her motor vehicle, she had been under the influence that she left of there. - In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel and root to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask. Was it a crime of passion? - If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia or a corrupt police coverup. - If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a coverup to prevent one of their own from going down. - Everyone had an opinion. And after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision. - To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. - Law and crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.
