So Tim, we talk a lot about decision making goals and goal setting, motivation, mindsets, habits and routines, all of these things that affect money. But we rarely talk about how we actually spend money and the general tendencies we might have for spending and/or saving. And I wanted to ask you, do you consider yourself a tight-wide or a spendthrift? Well, before I answer that, I think we should start with a definition. So, you know, using a car analogy, tight-weds are driving around with like the emergency break on, spendthrift are driving around with someone who's cut the brake lines. That was Scott Rick, our guest today. His analogy about spendthrifts and tight-weds here is very broad, but it certainly gives us a feel for the general tendency a person might have. And hopefully, it gets our listeners thinking. It's going to get you thinking, are you someone who's got the financial breaks on all the time, or just the opposite? Okay, so Tim, you are avoiding the answer. Oh, come on. Which way do you lean, spendthrift or tight-wide? Okay, I fit into both categories. I live by budgets, and those budgets act as outer limits of spending and specific accounts on a monthly basis, sort of the mental accounting thing. So, I have my foot at least near the breaks all the time. However, within those budgets, these mental accounts, I'm very much in the moment. And so, that would put me, by Scott's definitions, more on the spendthrift side of the table. Okay, I'm going to turn the tables. How about you? Okay, before you turn the tables, though, you still are just avoiding the answer. You just said, "I'm both." There you go. Hey, all right. I lean more towards spendthrift. All right. Well, I am probably in the spendthrift category. Squarely? If not squarely, at least my other foot is lifted up off of the tight-wide, off the tight-wide break. And the other foot is definitely on the gas pedal. So, I tend to always look at things as, "Hey, we are in the moment. Let's spend it." And we'll figure out a way to pay for it on the back end. And luckily, and I knock on wood every time, that has been okay with me so far. But there are times where my wife, on the other hand, is not of that nature. And therefore, holds us back a little bit, which is probably a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's how I'd sum up my tendencies, Mr. Julian. That's how I would sum up my tendencies. Welcome to Behavioral Grooves, the podcast that explores our human condition. I'm Kurt Nelson. And I'm Tim Hoolahan. We talk with researchers and other interesting people to discover why we do what we do using a behavioral science lens. In this episode, we speak with Scott Rick about his new book, Tight Wides and Spendthrifts, navigating the money minefield in real relationships, which we loved. Yes, we did. Scott is an associate professor of marketing in the Ross School of Business at the University of Michigan. And he got his PhD under the guidance of the amazing George Lowenstein at Carnegie Mellon University. Pretty cool connection, I would say. Yeah. Totally cool. In our conversation, we touched on the pros and cons of spendthrifts and tight wads. You see, Scott has been studying the behaviors of people who drive with their foot on the brakes, as well as the people who drive with their brake lines cut for more than a dozen years. His insights into the benefits and the drawbacks of each type provided some really great discussion. Yeah, Scott expanded on the definitions about what might make you a spendthrift or a tight wad, how you go about your decision making because of it. We also had a discussion about loss of version and how the context in which we experience losses could influence how they affect us, and especially through the lens of people who are used to constant losses. Very, very fascinating stuff there. We also covered three really important tips for you to think about in navigating your personal life or, more importantly, your relationships. And you'll just have to listen in for those because they are really, really good. Yeah. And with that grovers, we invite you to sit back with a shaken, not stirred bit of spending habits and enjoy our conversation with Scott. Scott Rick, welcome to behavioral grooves. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much. It's very kind of you. Tell us first off, would you prefer to have dinner with your favorite tight wad or favorite spendthrift? Oh, well, as much as I love the tight wads, I would probably choose another spendthrift. Yes. That I think is a pretty easy question on that. But there you go. All right, I will, I will ask our normal everyday starting question that Tim supplanted here. Are you a coffee drinker or a tea drinker? Oh, I'm open, but I'd probably go coffee. Okay. Yes. Are you a ritual coffee drinker? Do you have to do that? Or is it just nope, just give me whatever coffee I don't need to have a? No, no, it's more of a social thing. Having coffee with people, but no, it's not a need. Fantastic. Okay. Third speed round question, I am going to just dive right in. Does Pearl jams even flow pretty much sound the same in every city? No, no, of course not, because it depends on what they play beforehand and the mood of Mike McCready, the night they're playing and when he does his solo, so it's no, it's each it's there's textures, there's layers, it's, it's always beautiful, but it depends on where it's played. Okay, so Scott, you're going to have to explain to our listeners how you know that even flow is different and that the songs are different in each of the cities and there's a little story behind that, right? Well, it's it's a two part one. I've seen them in many cities personally, but also, you know, back in the early 2000s, they came out with a bootleg cut of each different concert and I was a big collector of those. I mean, and people would be puzzled. Like, you know, they pretty much play the same stuff. Why do you need 20 different copies of a particular song? Like, even flow, but to me, it was just the spirit, the essence of it just differed city to city. So I needed to hear all the different versions and collect them at great personal expense. That there is a large sum of money that goes into some of those bootlegs, particularly when you're buying all of them from, you know, hey, I can get I can see getting that one from, I don't know, you know, Cleveland or wherever it would be. But yeah, do you have to get all 30 of them? So there you go. Yes, you have to do it when you're in a school, when you have no money and the answer is yes. Yes, I can live on on Taco Tuesdays. Oh, you know, for a dollar, like, and much better than I can live without this other stuff. All right, last speed round question. So do you agree or disagree with Elizabeth Dunn, Dan Gilbert and Tim Wilson, and they say that if money doesn't make you happy, you're probably aren't spending it right. That tells about right to me. I mean, there are some things you just have to pay for that will not make you happy. I get a parking ticket. I have to pay it. But no, I think there are, you know, spending money is going to affect your happiness one way or the other. So you might as well devote a little thought to how you can do it better. And so I agree with the spirit of that, sure. Yeah. So we are talking with Scott Rick about his new book, Tightwads and Spendthriffs, Navigating the Money Minefield in Real Relationships. And so Scott, thank you for being a guest here. And I'll just start with this. So we love the way that you brought Behavior Science right into the forefront of the book, right? And yet this is a really readable book. It is a fantastic book. But let's start with some definitions. So can you talk about how you define Tightwad behavior and what would constitute Spendthrift behavior? Yes. So I think of these as like two ends of one continuum. And a classic Tightwad might be someone who looks good on paper. They might appear to have their financial life in order. You might not think they would be very anxious about going broke or spending a lot of money. But a lot of Tightwads do feel a lot of distress when thinking about spending. They're worried about what they're losing out on later and kind of bankrupting their future self. And so they end up not buying a lot of things. They recognize they absolutely should be buying and certainly the people around them think they should be buying these things. And so they'll, you know, they'll miss out on some experiences, maybe some once in a lifetime opportunities. They'll walk around and choose that are uncomfortable. And they just can't bear to pay the retail price, even though they can easily afford it. So there's some frustration that comes with that, that not being able to buy these things that at some level you recognize like, yeah, I probably should buy that. You know, Spendthrift, it's very different. So, you know, using a car analogy, Tightwads are driving around with like the emergency brake on. Spendthrift are driving around with someone who's cut the brake lines. We, Spendthrifts are very present-minded. And we have worries too. We don't want to miss out on the old important life experiences. And we will buy things just in case we might need them. So we're not only buying for known actual needs, we're buying for like potential needs. Like, you know, I might be going to buy some work clothes and see, oh, there's a fun velvet blazer that might be good for like a holiday party. You know, I'm not invited to any holiday parties, but what if I am? I wouldn't want to be without that blazer. That's the way we think. I'd rather be looking at it than looking for it, that kind of thing. So it's a very different approach. And as you can imagine, there's also some regret that comes with being a Spendthrift. Like, yeah, I didn't get invited to those parties. And now, if I did, I don't even fit in that blazer anymore. So that's, that's a problem. So we, we end up buying some things that we come to regret. So it's neither is ideal. You just said we when talking about Spendthrifts. And, and I love that you open the book by saying, I didn't come to this topic as a completely detached observer. I think that that's fantastic. So how can you tell us a little bit about Vegas? Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yes. Yeah, no, there's a lot of research here. And yeah, I grew up in Houston and small family, grandparents were in town, lived near all their grandkids, seemingly a nice setup. But these, they were show people, they, they were used to kind of glitz and glamour. They got bored of us, and they moved to Vegas, which was sad, but we got to visit them sometimes for weeks at a time. And, you know, they didn't go there for, you know, the Hoover Dam or like any sites and sounds, they went for like the casinos. So that's where I kind of grew up. I spent weeks and wandering around casinos with them. And sometimes on my own, I looked older than I was. They didn't give me any trouble. It was a different time. But, yeah, so I kind of saw this daily struggle for happiness via money. And, you know, I think it kind of loosened me up. It kind of, you see this all day, every day, this kind of over-the-top spinning. And I think I just got less anxious about the idea of being loose with money. Even though, you know, my family was making some questionable choices. They never went like overboard. But, you know, they, they lost a lot. And, you know, this is one case where I think, you know, I can, I still question loss aversion. Like, the losses were so expected. It was like no big deal. But when we would win, like, oh my gosh, that's a celebration. So it's like, I think the wins loom larger than the losses there. So yeah, I think it was fascinating. It definitely loosened me up. I'm not trying to replicate it with my kids. We haven't been to Vegas yet. Me and my boys will play poker for like, you know, snacks. But yeah, it was a fun, fascinating childhood. All right. So this wee part of being a spendthrift. But now you've written a book on spendthruists and tightwads. Has your behavior changed because of this me search that you have gone and done? And it, and I don't think the book is necessarily a self-help book for people. But is there part of the book that is like helping identify and maybe being able to go and take this to say, all right, maybe I need to be looking at things a little bit differently? Yeah. No, I would hope that I'm kind of a practical spendthrift. I'm aware of the dangers. You know, I let some, there's some automatic savings set up in the background that I don't get to touch. And you have to kind of know yourself and manage accordingly. But you know, I was writing this book during COVID and watching my kids grow up way too fast. And if anything, it made me kind of a little more comfortable being a spendthrift, you know, because it's just, you had all these reminders of the fragility of life and the future. There are no guarantees. And so it's, you don't want to go overboard, but it really reminded me to like seize the day and don't necessarily save all your happiness opportunities for later. I mean, again, not going overboard, but it made me more comfortable in my spendthrift. It's interesting that you say that because I am more on the spendthrift side than on the tight-wad side. I'm in the middle of your component, but leaning more towards the spendstrift side. I can't remember exactly what my number was, but there is this nagging piece in the back of my mind when I do spend, you know, I buy that nice driver for golf that I had a nice driver, but I got a nicer driver, right? And, you know, I go and we go down a vacation and go skiing and an expensive ski resort, but, you know, but you were making great, you know, family memories and various different pieces. So, but I'm always trying to justify that. Is that a common trait for spendthrifts and to your point, kind of coming to terms with that? Is that something that you obviously have said that you just did that with, you know, kind of going through COVID and the pandemic, but is that something that more people should do, again, within reason? Right. Well, we spendthrifts are naturally artists at justifying and making sense of otherwise puzzling purchases, but no, we see a lot of things as investments, like we can very easily tell that story. And certainly when it comes to like making memories and these kind of family events, we're good at that. And you, that's a good perspective to have. But, you know, this is one reason why I like being married to a tight one, like I, you need kind of this team of rivals, you need kind of these competing points of view, and it's all about finding the balance. And so I can help her frame some things as investments as needed, but it is good to have this countervailing force of let's not go overboard. I'm curious as to how aware or unaware we are about our tight wadness or spendthriftness, because you start the book with a quiz, as if to say, "I want to make sure you know right away what where you stand on this." Is our awareness a challenge, do you think? Yeah, I don't think people are clueless, but I think it's imperfect. There's a lot of certainly tight wad as a weird word and not everyone knows what that means. And you hear different words like cheap or frugal or stingy or so it's, you know, there's different ways to kind of spend conservatively, for example. And so I think it helps to kind of understand like, "Oh, am I someone who just loves saving or am I really anxious about going broke?" Or, you know, and some people are just truly cheap, which is like, I think the worst one of them all. You know, that's below tight wad, I would say, but from like a moral perspective. But no, I think it's good to kind of understand your kind of particular flavor of spending. And, you know, I can help to kind of think about how other people see you because we don't perfectly know ourselves. And so it always helps to get an outside view. But yeah, I think it's a good time to reflect. And that's why I put it up front to increase the awareness. Yeah. One of the pieces that I kind of in reading this that came up is Richard Thaler talks about mental accounting and the different pieces of this. And is there a difference in the way that spendthriffs and tightwads look at mental accounting, those categories of buckets of money that, "Hey, this is my rent money. This for our listeners. This is our rent money. This is my fund money. This is my money to buy new tires and, you know, six months down the road versus money's fruit, fungible. And it should be, you know, "Look, I got money. I can spend it wherever I want is not the accounting part." So is there a difference? Yes. There is. So spendthriffs are less active in the mental accounting space. They don't budget very carefully. And when they do, there is a lot of fungibility and there were a real case-by-case people. But yeah, so I do think budgeting can really help both of them. I mean, certainly spend remind you like, "Oh, there are opportunity costs. If I spend now, I'm not spending something else later." But most interestingly, I think tightwads can benefit from budgets too. So their problem is that they have a hard time justifying a purchase in the moment. They can't find the money for it. I can't afford this. But if you can kind of pre-commit kind of like a spend more later approach, like if you can earmark some money in advance as like loose, optional, fun money and have like a budget for it, I think that can help tightwads because it's there when you encounter these opportunities because they can't justify it on the spot. You have to plan in advance to loosen up. I love that, actually. I think that that's a wonderful thing that our future selves can be regardless of our disposition can be influenced by the way we make those pre-commitments. That's beautiful. I'm just curious, Scott, what are the most common misperceptions that we have about spendthriffs or tightwads? Well, I think there's a lot of, you know, morality gets into it. Spendthriffs, you know, it's often looked down upon people who do a lot of shopping and get themselves into debt. And, you know, sometimes getting into debt is it is the result of kind of overspending and overshopping. And that's true. But a lot of people who are in debt or in debt because of insufficient income or kind of shocks like medical expenses or just things out of their control. So, you know, I think people are often labeled spendthriffs just for things out of their control. So, there's that. And then, yeah, tightwads, you know, it's tricky how to look at a tightwad. I have a part in my book about, like, in defense of tightwads. Like, they are being very nice to their future selves and their family as they grow up. Like, there is something very kind about that, even if in the moment that you might be kind of depriving yourself and your family of a lot of joyful experiences. So, it's even I struggle with how to balance those things and how to look at it. But, yeah, and another, you know, misperception about tightwads is like, again, this confusion. Are they frugal or are they cheap? Are they, there are so many different flavors of conservative spending? So, it's, I think it's useful to kind of define these terms and really kind of understand this unique psychology. The subtitle of your book is "Navigating the Money Minefield in Real Relationships." And you brought up the fact that you are glad that you're married to a tightwad and that that works, where so help us understand the complexities of the relationship aspect of this. And you're saying you're thankful that you're married to a tightwad, but I could see that where that could also cause a lot of conflict in certain situations. So, how do you navigate that, as you say, navigate the money minefield here? Exactly. Well, yes, I am thankful and we do make it work, but on average, the more spouses differ on this, the more they fight, the more they wish they married someone else, it is usually a sore spot. And so, it really takes a careful approach to make this work because just these money-related decisions are so unavoidable. I think it can be kind of fun and interesting and charming to be with someone different when you're dating. The tightwads can be quite amused and fascinated by this person who just approaches things so differently and recklessly from their point of view. But once the stakes are raised in a marriage, my goodness, what was once charming can be really irritating. There's all kinds of fatal attractions out there where you might be drawn to someone for some reason, but that is the very thing that ultimately drives you nuts about them. Maybe you go with someone because you're fascinated by the work they do and you just want to be in their presence and it's so exciting, but you realize, "Oh, they can only do this by being a total workaholic and it's miserable to live with them," and they don't take care of the kids and these patterns happen. But yeah, it's unavoidable. There's all these financial choices, but even choices about other things that aren't on the surface about money are often themselves financial choices. What kind of sports should the kids play? Well, these sports cost different amounts of money and required travel and how many vacations should we take? There's ultimately a big financial component, so it's just in your face relentlessly. Then relatives get sick and you got to take care of them. It is so easy to have these frictions come to the surface. That's why you have to think about what do we discuss, how do we arrange our bank accounts? What are some practices that help us discuss the things we need to discuss and maybe not discuss certain things too? You mentioned in the book, so you have the chapter on more than that, but you talk in the book and you talk about that in as you're dating, not necessarily marrying for money, but this idea to do some forecasting about the financial aspects of money. Can you tell us what you mean by forecasting? Well, I think it's just tuning in to your own feelings as you're dating this person and getting to know them. Is there something already that irritates you about how they use money? If so, it's not necessarily a deal breaker, but I would just say be aware that this is not going to get better. It is only going to get worse as the stakes are raised once kids start entering the picture. If you can barely stand the way they handle money early on, it's not going to get better. It's not just going to get better. Automatically going to go, "Oh, well, I'll just get accustomed to them." Exactly. Money is right up there within laws as the thing that drives spouses apart. Just be aware, you're taking a gamble. Some gambles are worth taking, but it's not going to get better. Vegas comes back again. Here we go. Taking a deal. So this is not a self-help podcast by any means. We are a behavioral science podcast, but just to continue to follow this relationship story, what's the deal with joint accounts? Good idea? Bad idea? Yeah, mostly good. Yeah. There had been some research showing that couples who have joint accounts are happier. It was kind of correlational and interesting, but there was always this question. Do happy people choose joint accounts or does joint accounts make you happy? Who knows? So we wanted to try to do the experiment. We found a couple hundred newlywed couples who had separate accounts, but they were undecided about what to do long-term. So we paid them to keep it separate or to merge their money into a joint account or just do whatever you want. We followed them for two years, periodically checking in. Are you still talking? Are you still like each other? Do you regret the marriage? And what we found was that the couples who we prompted to merge their money were happiest at the end of two years. They kind of maintained their newlywed level of happiness, whereas the couples in the other conditions get the normal decline. Normally, I'm sad to say, wedding day is the happiest. We think the joint account was doing several things. One is it helps to reduce score-keeping. Score-keeping is very bad for a relationship. And when you have separate accounts, you can really get into, well, I'm going to contribute 60% of our household funds. And it's still good. That's what businesses are for. Businesses are for score-keeping. You want to say, "Honey, could you do the dishes tonight because I'm really tired?" You don't want to say, "Can you do the dishes tonight because I did them last night?" That's what you don't want to slide into. And so you want to keep things communal and joint accounts help to do that. You want to hide income differences if at all possible. So you just want to make everything our money, everything gets dumped into a joint account because that can be really irritating for couples. And it prompted some conversations, helped people to get on the same page, align their financial goals a little bit. So those are all good things. Now, I don't think only joint accounts are good, but I do think it plays a critical role in kind of making everything our money. We both have immediate, symmetric access to all incoming money. It's ours as soon as it comes in. That's, I think, really important. It's fascinating. I read that part in the book, and call me ignorant or whatever, but I'm going, couples actually do different accounts. I knew that. But this part of then rationing out, "Well, I am going to pay 70% of the mortgage, and you pay 30%. But you pay the garbage and water bill, and I'll pay this." And it's like, how does that even work? So again, I've always had a joint account with my spouse, and 25 years later, we're still happily, maybe not wedding day, but pretty close to there. So it was fascinating to me on that. I'm going to switch up here. I just want to talk a little bit because you bring up another really interesting piece, one of Tim and my favorite commitment devices, the Odessis contract. Can you tell us a little bit about that and why you put it in the book, and why do you think it's successful? Yeah. Well, it certainly can be, and I think budgeting, earmarking can be a way to kind of commit your future self to behaving differently, and as we talked about, I think it can help both types. You can use budgets to loosen up or behave yourself. But there are other things that I think credit cards could be an interesting commitment device for a tight one. If you're kind of paying an annual fee and getting some kind of, "Oh, you'll get a bonus on travel and a bonus on a fancy hotel." It could be a way to kind of pre-commit to having that experience that you might not otherwise go to. Now, there's risk when it comes to pre-commitment devices, of course. What if you get the credit card with the annual fee and you truly don't have time to take that vacation this year, or you could just never can get over the hump later to go for it. So there are some risks that comes for it, yet it takes trial and error. But I think that's a big part of this approach, kind of understanding yourself and where you're going to go wrong and changing your kind of decision environment accordingly. We are speaking with Scott about his new book that came out in January 2024, and it's called "Tite Wads and Spendthriffs, Navigating the Money Minefield in Real Relationships." And we want to talk to you about gift-giving. What role does gift-giving play in the spendthrift, tight-wad universe? Well, gift-giving is huge. When I first proposed to my editors, I need a chapter on gift-giving. They're like, "Really?" That doesn't seem like part of financial decision-making. I was like, "No, no, it's totally essential." Because, and maybe you can relate to this a little bit, once you get into a stable situation in your relationship, there's a lot of administrative discussions that come up. Who's going to call the refrigerator repair person? I'm now reminding myself I have to do that today. But who's going to pick the kids up from soccer practice and things like this? You might not take the chance, like you might have when you were younger, to tell your partner what you appreciate about them, or why you love them, or really let them know that they're seen and appreciate it. If we're not having those conversations as much as we should, we're going to have to let the gifts that we give them do the talking and let them know that you're seen and appreciate it. So, it's a really important thing. That's why I don't like the advice of like, "Oh, just ask them what they want." It's like, "Okay, I get it. You're trying to avoid disaster, but it's just not an opportunity to let them know that they're seen." So, that's essential. You have to get to know them. You have to explore their inner psychological world to truly get a good gift for them. And the Taiwan spin-thrift part really comes in when you think about a gift. It's not just experienced in isolation. It's experienced knowing who it came from. And so, the same gift can be experienced very differently if it's coming from a Taiwan or a spin-thrift. So, let's say I'm a spin-thrift and I want to get my wife something nice. Let's say I get her a new iPad. That's expensive. It's nice. Nothing wrong with it, but is it a sacrifice? Like, a good gift requires sacrifice. Like, this was hard for me to find or obtain. And there's nothing hard for a spin-thrift buying an iPad. Maybe she just saw me buy a new iPhone for myself. Like, I do this stuff all the time on a whim. There's nothing special about it. This is just what I do. So, if I want to show sacrifice as a spin-thrift, it's probably not going to be through money. It's going to be through time or effort or research. Or, let me call some bookstores to find a special edition of this book that you really like. Or, let me find something on eBay that's kind of obscure. It's not necessarily expensive, but it really fits your interest or your passions. Or, let me plan something, some getaway. So, it's going to have to be time and effort. That's my sacrifice. Now, the Taiwan giving a gift, it still needs to be thoughtful, of course. But for them, spending a lot of money is a sacrifice. I know that wasn't easier for you. You've kind of put yourself in harm's way. When my wife gets me something expensive that she doesn't normally buy, like, I know, like, "Oh my gosh, this is not what you do. Thank you. My goodness, it's a real sacrifice." So, yeah, we have to keep in mind what the recipient knows about us, the giver. Yeah. So, it feels like there is an element of sacrifice that goes into a good gift-giving component of this. And because if I'm a spendthrift and I just buy the expensive jewelry or whatever it is, it doesn't matter because I don't feel the pain of that giving. And it doesn't necessarily, there's that work or effort that went into it versus, you know, if that was a tight one. That's an interesting component about how just that difference. And so, I'm wondering, is there something, I don't know where I'm going with this question, but I just thought that was a really interesting insight. I'm reminded, and I forget if I quote this in the book, but there's an SNL sketch about like a CVS Valentine, just like someone getting their partner or something. And one of the women's like, "Oh, Mike, when did you get this?" And the guy's like five minutes ago. Like, that's like the ultimate act of not sacrificing. Like, it was so easy and effortless. That's what you want to avoid. Like, you need to show that this is hard. Is there anything on that though? So, again, I am sharing too much here, but my in-laws will always make a handmade card. You know, part of that is because they're more on the tightwad side. But there is also this aspect that it's really kind of nice when you get that. You know, they've spent some time in creating this card. But if that had come from like a spendthrift person, I probably would put a little bit more value in it because it's not, I don't view it as, "Oh, they're doing this because they don't want to spend three dollars on a card. Is there something there?" That's right. Yeah. No time and effort and thought is always good. But I do think spendthrifts get a little extra bonus by demonstrating that. If that's kind of new for them, if they're, if you're used to seeing them kind of throw money at the problem, so to speak, not that like an anniversary is a problem, but you know what I mean. But yeah, they get a little extra boost. Scott, you've done some really cool work with fantastic partners, colleagues over the years. And you mentioned one of our Kurtz and my buddies, Ron Kivitz, and some of his work with Itamar Simonson, specifically around the right to indulge. And you bring up an important study that the Kurtz and I think is undervalued in general. The study where a quarter of the participants chose a $50 bottle of wine over $55 in cash. Can you tell us about the lesson there? Yes. Well, and they chose it when it's a drawing. If you win, it'll come later. What would you want to get later? I think if it was like, "Oh, you'll get this prize right now. I think most people just take the cash." But some people realize, they understand that I'm a little too restrictive in my approach to spending. I'm not ready to loosen up now, but later, I might be able to loosen up. So it's the spend more tomorrow idea. This is where I think it can help tight-wides read and learn about some regrets that people have about missed opportunities. And I don't think a lot of them can do an immediate change, but I think some of them, upon reflection, upon hearing about others' experiences might be able to pre-commit to indulging later and come up with enough time to justify that purchase. They just can't do it on the spot. They've got to warm up to it. But yeah, I love that study. Yeah, no, it's great. We could go down a rabbit hole around non-cash and cash and all sorts of different pieces there. There's two things that I have questions on. One is going back at the beginning, you mentioned loss aversion, and you're kind of hesitant about loss aversion because of your history with the Vegas and the pleasure that they got from winning. Have you actually thought about that? Have you done any research on that? I know it's not part of the book, but I just wanted to dig into that. Is there anything there? No, it's on the list. I'm certainly aware about all the recent debates about this, and I certainly do lean on more on the side of this. This does just come up in so many contexts, and I'm certainly on the loss version as a real team, but the kind of Eric Johnson and colleagues recent paper on like, "Oh, well, there's some context dependencies." I'm totally there. But yeah, I think this is just one of those settings where losses are just so routine and expected that the winning was just so much more novel and just kind of seemingly worthy of celebration that it definitely loomed larger. A $20 gain just was so much more important and impactful than a $20 loss. It's not even close. It's so fascinating. You talk about this idea, and it makes implicit sense, right? When we think about this, that the expectation is that I'm going to lose. I have mentally, almost a mental accounting for that already, and the win is the surprise, which then the dopamine release and all the other neurotransmitter pieces that you do. I know you've done some really cool research with the pain of spending and actually neuroimaging and some other facets around that. That could be a cool piece. Again, we could go on very many different tangents on this, so I apologize. Yeah, I would love to do some research with routine gamblers and how they experience losses versus symmetrical gains. You wonder too, is that a personality component within that? Is there some personality factor that goes into? Again, we're going down at this. All right, apologize for that. If you had to point out three really important things that you learned from writing this book, that you want to make sure our listeners understand, what would those three things be? Yeah, so I would start with take a look at your account structures. Are they making the dynamic better or worse? I advocate for at least couples that are on solid ground, a combination of joint and separate accounts, joint to absorb incoming money, but separate on the back end, so we each could spend some of our money without the other person looking over our shoulder, because I might have interests that you don't have or you don't understand. You might be shocked at what I spend on old concert posters or an autographed Ryan Sandberg card. This might not make any sense to you, but I'm not bankrupting the house and we just give each other some leeway. My wife is a needle pointer. I have sometimes seen invoices that surprise me, but again, she's not endangering us and she loves it and she's even starting a business on it, so you have to have some trust. That's why I say financial translucency is preferred to financial transparency. We just have a sense of what the other person is doing. At a high level, we don't need the details. That's one thing. I would say, again, think about the gifts, doing it in a way that demonstrates sacrifice and understanding of the other person. Are you exploring their inner psychology? You got to set aside some date nights and see what their interests and passions and curiosities are. You might need to update on that. I would say once kids are involved, there are things we'll put up with when it's just the two of us. You might have some quirks that I'm like, "I roll my eyes." That's just Kurt, but once Kurt is influencing children, then we need to talk about it. One thing that I realized in doing this research on parents and kids is that kids get a lot of mixed messages. I will tell my kids to, "Okay, screens are done. Now, hold on. Daddy has to check if his tweet got any likes. They'll see me do something very different than I recommend to them." They get that around money, too. They're much more likely to pick up on what we do than verbal advice. I cannot completely turn off being a spin-thrift in front of them, but I can reel it in or I can at least talk them through. If we go to the Detroit Tigers game this weekend, there's some fun stuff that we're going to be sacrificing later, but maybe it makes sense. Your favorite players in town, sometimes you do have to make these hard choices. I just don't want it to seem totally effortless and pain-free when I'm doing all this spending in front of them. I want us all to be aware of what we're sacrificing. It's made me more mindful when I demonstrate in front of them. I needed to have this conversation 18 years ago when my first child was born. Of course, we can go out for dinner because we can spend that. Of course, you can go on a fancy vacation. Of course, you can do all this stuff. Nothing ever gets taken back. Thank you. I think it's really great advice. Thank you. There are a ton of really lovely musical references in the book. Would it be fair to say that you're a music lover? Of course. Of course. It's evolved. I still am a big Pearl Jam, you two kind of guy. Nowadays, I listen to what you might call a lot of sad girl music. Mitzki and Lana Del Rey and Marina and Poppy and fun. I've heard this music for people who are afraid to drive on the freeway. I love the mix. My kids are getting me into some new stuff also. I love it. It's interesting how kids can expand our musical listening habits in various different pieces. Oh, totally. Did you have a playlist while you were writing the book? Did you listen to music as you wrote? Or is that something that as some of our guests like, "Nope, I can't have music. I can't have anything going on." Oh, of course. No, of course I listen to music. A lot of Mitzki, a lot of show tunes. I love a good soundtrack, a little Oklahoma or sometimes even like a Twin Peaks soundtrack or a very eclectic mix, I would say. Well, that makes me want to ask if you were stuck on a desert island for a year and you could only bring two musical artist catalogs with you. Which two artists would you bring with you? Oh, my God. Yeah, that is tough. Well, certainly. I think that's pretty tough for you. You have a diverse listening. Oh, my gosh. Yes. I mean, certainly Pearl Jam. You can never go wrong there. And you have all of the bootlegs. So there you go. I'm well stocked already. But yeah, then the other one, I would have to flip some coins there. But I do love Mitzki. She's great. Fantastic. Scott, it has been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. So appreciate your work. It's one of those pieces where, again, having the science behind this, I think is great. We have an intuitive component around this, but the science there, and I think it's just a really valuable and it's a great book. It's a great read. So all our listeners, please go out and check out the book. And thank you for being a guest. Thank you so much. This is a big thrill for me. I'm a big fan of both of yours and this is great. Welcome to our Grooving session, where Tim and I share ideas on what we learned from our discussion with Scott, have a free flowing conversation and groove on whatever else comes into our spendthrift tight-wide brains. Both, both. You have both you. I do. Cheating kind of guy who doesn't take a stance, you mister, a middle man, mister. I am Switzerland and don't want to have any kind of like spendthrift or tight-wide get mad at me because I'm one or the other. Where did Switzerland get this idea that just because they're neutral, they don't take a stand, they take a big stand on things in some time, in some ways, because they're saying we're not going to engage in this stuff. Yeah, so that's a big stance. By not making a decision, you're making a decision after all. Is that how that goes? Exactly. What was that lyric of? Was that Tom Sawyer? I think it was. Oh my gosh. We digress. We digress, mister, middle man, non-spendthrift or tight-wide brain person, you both living in both worlds. I see both sides. I live both sides. I'm just not a one-sided guy. That's what it is. Let's talk about it. That would be flat-standly then if you were just a one-sided guy. Well, even he is too. There you go. All right. Sorry listeners. We digress. So what do you think? What do you think? Groovers need to read this book. This is a really, really good book. What I love about this book is that it's not the intuitive. This is how to improve your decision-making so that your relationship can be better, or this is how to improve your mindset so that it's like, just this is how to deal with your tendencies to be a spend-thrift or a tight-wad and to make it work in your relationship. Yeah, it's funny. I left this book out on the dining room table, which you know we have done multitudes of interviews and stuff there way back in the pre-COVID days when we used to get together and do these things. But then my wife was picking it up and looking at it and she goes, "This looks really interesting. Oh, it is. You should read it. It is." Because we probably have conversations that we should be having over the insights in this about how we operate and what that means and why that could cause issues or strife or where we might be making bad decisions because of different aspects of it. So I think it's a really great read and I think people ought to be reading it. Or how you could improve your gift-giving to your partner. I've used that spend-thrift giving of just giving something of value and what the meaning of that is compared to something expensive. Yeah, if they spent extra money on something and how hard that was for them versus some spend-thrift who actually then goes and takes time to make something special and isn't all about just spending the money but taking the effort and putting that in. I've had that conversation actually with people in work situations and a number of other factors to talk about it. It's been one of those cool concepts that I think oftentimes we get in these interviews but this is one that I've used with others. Okay, where do you want to start then Kurt on our grooving topics? Context matters and context matters in loss aversion being boom. Why didn't we think about this 30 years ago? Why have we talked about loss aversion as this overarching piece in different aspects? And I know that's not what his book is about but it was one of those really interesting pieces in the conversation that we had with Scott. Yeah, so why is this a big deal? It's a big deal for me because I've always thought of loss aversion as just this completely universal thing that under any circumstances with just about anybody they're going to value losses greater maybe two times or more greater than gains of the same value. And yet what Scott starts to bring to the table is what if you're a gambler and you lose all the time? You become desensitized to the idea of losses. They stop having that 2x multiplier, oh god it feels terrible to lose because you're losing all the time and you know that those gains are so rare that when you do have that gain it is amplified and magnified. Yeah, your condition to feel different, your world view has changed and thus your emotional response has changed. And so what was it? Did you read Eric Johnson's paper on that? I have not. So what helped me understand and by our listeners as well? I think what Eric's paper really said was we just need to back off of the idea that loss aversion is a universal experience and that everyone is going to have that experience that losses are two to three times worse than gains are good. And just by the way, the press that came out around and was like loss aversion is dead, there is no more loss aversion. It's like no, loss aversion still exists. Yeah, well it looks like plenty. But this is the important thing, context matters, right? And so context in as what we talked with Scott about, this idea that hey there are certain people because of the very nature of their passions or their work or whatever it would be have become conditioned, desensitized as you said to the losses and that becomes part of the regular ongoing day. And if they felt that angst every time it would be de-abilitating. And so they have conditioned themselves not to feel that. And I think what you're also saying is that there might be other contextual pieces, whether it be personalities, right? There are certain people who are more risk-avert. We know that. We know people who are more risk-averse and they might feel that pain even more so versus people who are risk-taking and they may not feel the same angst. And so we have to understand that all of this needs to be put into a better prism to look through to say, hey, that isn't just one bright light that's shining up. There's multiple different colors that come through. And we need to understand how those colors interact and what they mean. So, yes. And I just want to add a proviso that if you're a Groover who's listening right now and you're like, yeah, you know, losses just don't bother me that much. I think about a dollar as a dollar as a dollar, whether I'm gaining it or losing it, be aware of your blind spots because loss aversion is real. It just context does matter. And maybe you're one of those people that has been conditioned and desensitized to the idea, but it's unlikely. That's a relatively small percentage of the population, probably. And we're extrapolating here because that's what we do. Then we get ourselves into trouble. We put our foot in our mouths all the time because we extrapolate the science communicators. That's a bad thing to do, but we do it nonetheless. But so one more piece on that. And I was talking actually with some corporations today, not some a corporation, a business, and not the corporation itself. I was talking to people who work for this corporation today. That's good. Thank you. As opposed to just a large corporation, I'm talking to you. No, I was talking to people who work inside said corporation about loss aversion, about some of the ways that that loss aversion can impact how they're feeling. And one of the pieces that we brought up, you're talking about a dollar is a dollar is a dollar. And one of the things that we were focusing in on is it doesn't always have to be monetary. You can lose other things. You can lose sense of prestige. You can lose a feeling of status. You can lose a number of other factors and those parlay into a feeling of loss aversion with that enhanced feeling of angst around that loss, as opposed to the similar pleasure of the gain. And again, we may be desensitized, as you said, to the loss of the dollar, if we're constantly gambling. And that's part of it. But that doesn't mean that we are desensitized to the loss of, hey, my status of being somebody who is well respected by my peers, that could still sting. And it could sting in a very more painful way than actually gaining of that. Or the loss of before COVID, I had a desk by the window. I was in the office five days a week. I had a cool desk by the window. Then COVID happens. The company moves to a hotel style thing. And so now people come in at random. And I go in three days a week. And most of the time, there's somebody sitting in my desk and still my desk. Yeah, it's my desk. Your desk. And you lost that damn desk. I lost. That's right. And it pisses me off. And so that person becomes an object of irritation when they're just following the rules. The rules changed. They just are a morning bird. And the early bird gets that worm. And that worm is the desk of in the corner with the beautiful lookout over whatever fancy view that you're looking at. Okay, let's talk earlier. Damn it, Tim, get up earlier and get there. That's if I just got up earlier, I'd be more successful. Okay, let's let's let's talk about the three things that I think were really super cool about the conversation because the Scotch work is on things. What are you talking about? Well, there were just these three things that were really central to making relationships work. And I thought that the first one when he was talking about accounts, monetary accounts, like bank accounts, joint versus individual. And he talked about translucency versus transparency. And this idea of thinking at the end of the month, if you're being responsible to the budgets that you have, don't dive into the specific things of what someone spends on. Let them let your partner and yourself spend on whatever the hell you want as long as you're living responsibly. And so don't get all mad over that $4.79 latte that you go, you could have made the coffee at home here. Damn it. Well, coffee for you, not regardless. But I wouldn't even drink that coffee. There you go. You have $4.79 coffee that that would be a waste on me. Yeah, but to that degree, right? It's it's, you know what, if we're within the budget, we're spending responsibly, you're doing all those things. If they want to go out and and play a round of golf, and maybe that's wrong because it's taking time and different things, but from a monetary perspective, right? Or whatever it would be by, you know, a fancy Stanley Cup or do something that is outside of what you would how you would spend that money. Yeah, it's okay. And and don't get all worked up over that there are so many people that I can that I know of that just get mad at their partners because of their spending habits. And and sometimes it's it's justified because they're putting them in like financial distress. But other times it's like a different story. They just don't like what they're spending it on. Yeah. Yeah, I think Scott to quote him, he said, we need to have or you need to have a sense of what the other person is doing at a high level, but we don't need the details. Yeah. And I think that for some people giving up that sense of control is going to be difficult. But get on board with being challenged because it doesn't lead. I don't think that high control relationships, let me put it this way, high control relationships tend not to lead to happy relationships. No, you made a comment that is like not middle ground Switzerland. Look at that. That is not Switzerland. That is and that's my observation. Folks, that's not that's not that's not based on any of the research that you've done on well, high control relationships versus not it's just personal experience, huh? It's personal experience. There you go. I get that I get that and I can you know, again, it passes the smell test. So there you go. All right, let's talk about gifts, because this was a piece that I already talked about. I really liked this idea that, hey, are you giving a gift in a way that demonstrates sacrifice, which is different for a spend thrift than it is for a tightwad. Right. And I love that. It's like, yeah, all right, for a tightwad, if you make a handmade card for me, I'm viewing it as, oh, you're just saving money because you don't want to spend the $4 on a damn fricking card for me. But if you're a spend thrift and you hand make a card for me, I'm like, oh, thank you. You put some time and effort into this. Right. You would normally just go out and buy me the $8 card, but you didn't. And so thank you. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's that's a great example. And I just saw that recently with my family, actually. It literally came to life in the form of a card where the person who is a super tightwad made their own card and handed it over and and gets all this applause from everybody for doing the work to make the card and give and give the card. But you know, the primary reason she did it was to save the four bucks on the card. And so it's so strange. But gifts are so important. Also, a gift does not exist in isolation, right? Talk about context, right? So gifts have a rhythm and a context about them. And I think that it's really important when you think if you're going to give a gift to someone that you just take a minute to get into the mind of the person you're giving to, get your psychic vibe on, you know, start thinking about the other person. And it can go a long way, I think, to really get into their heads about what would make sense to them. Kind of get back to the love languages about, you know, time and touch and, you know, all those kinds of things. But like, what's up value to them? Give a gift that's meaningful to someone else. It's interesting. And sorry, I'm going to spring this on you. We didn't talk about this in advance. So I'm springing this on you. But I just have been in the throes of high school graduation and high school graduation parties. Lots of them. Lots of them. My son just graduated. And as such, you give a card usually with money in it as a gift that is the traditional kind of at least in the US, at least in the upper Midwest, where we're from, that's what we do. And it's one of the only times where in a gift-giving situation, money is kind of appropriate. And we've talked about gifts of money before versus, you know, like, do you give somebody a bottle of wine, or do you give them $20 for the thank you for the dinner that you do, and like the difference, so that what that means, right? And various different aspects. But in this case, in this instance, money is the appropriate kind of the expected way of doing it. But what's really interesting, and just seeing how my son got the money is the cards become much more important than the actual gift. I mean, the dollar amounts varied very huge, right? And different pieces. But the manner in which that money was given into fun things like, you know, somebody wrote a check for $20 and 24 cents, because it is 2024. And that was just like, it was, oh, it was unique. It was memorable. It was like your graduation is special for you. There were, you know, people who like, you know, had a hand written card, and were like, look for the number of of Jackson's, you know, and kind of making a game of it and very different Jackson's being a reference to the the the the the Andrew Jackson on a on a $20 bill, $20 or $20. Yeah, wait, we know $100 bills. That would be nice if there are multiple Jackson's. But those are Benjamin's. Sorry, those are Benjamin's. But the but the idea of then the card and the the words that are associated with the card, and you know, there are some cards that my son got that were just like their names, and then the money included. And then there were other cards that had a long kind of, you know, commentary about about my son or their relationship or different pieces and those again take on a different meaning. And I think cards in the general are that way, but particularly when there isn't necessarily a thoughtful the gift itself is just a monetary gift. That is interesting. Yeah, we have talked about, you know, monetary gifts in the past and and you and I are not fans of them in general. But when there's a social norm that that is the way to do it, you can you can really create a lot of loss aversion by not giving the monetary gift, you know, by by going outside the social norm. Okay. Okay. Okay. Last thing I want to say on on the tips is as opposed to the adult relationships, the relationship with kids. And really, there's not a lot to say about this, but I was really glad that that Scott pointed out the fact that what we do as parents and just adults in kids relationships, you know, in relationship to kids, aunts, uncles, all that kind of thing makes a difference. Like we will be role models, whether we like it or not. Yeah. And the fact that our kids are watching us and learning from us from our own behaviors, which in my case, I wasn't raised as a spend through a spend through it. Yeah. I mean, my parents grew up in the depression. And I remember my mom would actually we go out to a restaurant and I don't know if you remember restaurants in the olden days used to have sometimes we'd have a little basket in the middle with like, you know, salting crackers and breadsticks that were all wrapped in, you know, things. And I get the end of the of the meal, if we had leftovers, and she would take those and put them in her purse, because while we paid for them, right? And they are part of this. And I was embarrassed as hell at that was being a teenager and doing that. But that was the way my, I mean, my mom was raised during the literally during the depression in the 1930s and grew up like not knowing like, are they going to have enough food for their next thing? So they were very much spent or tightwads in just the way that they were raised. And I was raised somewhere in between, actually ended up, you know, being the youngest of five, I probably am more on the spend thrift side than any of my other siblings, because by the time I got around, everything they had relaxed a little bit. But I look at my kids and I'm like, Oh my God, they're even worse than me on spending. It's like, what kind of monsters have I created? So we'll see. Is there anything else that you want to touch on here? So the only piece and I don't think we have to spend a lot of time on this, but I thought it was interesting because, you know, we didn't talk about organizational implications, like trying to negotiate a raise with spend thrifts versus negotiating a raise with a tightwad boss, right? And we didn't, because Scott's research doesn't cover it, but we're going to extrapolate and get ourselves into trouble. And we're going to extrapolate because, you know, although that's what how we get into trouble by extrapolating out this insights from one group and putting it on to another, right? That's bad science. But we're going to do it anyway, right? Because here we go. All right. So do you think Tim, and maybe we don't have answers for this, but do you think that the same types of behaviors and attitudes can be applied in a business setting? Like, are there organizations that tend to be more spend thrifty and more tightwadi? Is those words? Absolutely. I think the corporate culture is here's my observation. And I think that there's some literature about the differences in corporations. But I could think we could look at tightwad and spend thrift at an organizational level, like from the CEO down, there would be a general vibe with probably some variation. We could look at departments or business units as having different spend thrift or tightwad vibes and tendencies, even with some variation. Then we could so after business units, we go to departments from departments, we could go down to individual line managers who will have a specific tendency to lean one way or the other. And who you report to is going to make a difference. Do you think that within an organization that a spend thrift is going to be more constrained because of the way budgets operate and the need to justify or allocate budgets into certain things so that they're not necessarily going to just have free reign? Or is that even dependent upon the organization to a certain degree? I would expect that it not only varies by organization, but where the organization is in their lifecycle because the company that is, for instance, companies that are just startups and have a lot of VC money, they need to be spending aggressively on certain things. And they need to be tightwads on certain things. And so if your company just got an infusion of a million dollars from some private equity, you need to be really focused on spending the money on the things that the PE firm believes you need to be spending on and you need to be controlling costs on the things that you need to control costs on compared to another company that's going to be totally different than that or another manager within a department that's going to feel differently. It's interesting as you talked about the lifecycle of the organization, right? And I think there are again, you can think of just a startup and various different things, and you might be stretched for cash. And so you are being very tightwaddy in a certain manner. Your desks are the doorframe that's onto horses, right? And there's part of that. And then you get to a part where all of a sudden you get that influx of money or you start selling amazingly and your profits are way up. And so now all of a sudden you do feel like you can spend and different things. And then you grow even beyond that. And all of a sudden the organization gets the public traded or even just larger from an organization. And you have to put kind of these constraints in and you have to have elements where you have approval processes and various different aspects. So again, those aspects of the lifecycle I think are probably there as well, which is really interesting if you think about that. And even just like the situation, context matters, right? You've gone through a recent acquisition. In the acquisition, you're being a spend-through. If you might have to spend more to acquire that company than maybe what its value is, because you hope that there's some synergies moving forward. So you're spending more. But then once that acquisition happens, now it's cost cutting time. And now you're under tight rod frame, because now we have to make those synergies work. And we need to centralize things. And we have to cut the number of headcount and this much budget dollars and everything to meet the financial projections that we had. So that's a great example. That's a really terrific example, Kurt. And I think that grovers need to be can benefit from being aware of where their companies at, where their business unit is at, where their department is at, and where the person that they're reporting to is at when it comes to what they perceive there needs to be. Is it time to spend or is it time to save? No, I love it. So, all right. I think that's a wrap. And because we covered some really cool things from our conversation with Scott, I don't know if there's anything else to say, right? I agree. I just want to remind, I want to go back to the gift-giving thing just one more time. Because it's really important to get in the mind of your recipient. And I just thought this was so important. And you might not get it perfectly right, but you have to just go out and try it and get into the mind of the person that you're giving to or the people that you're giving to. Okay, good point. And for those grovers who would like to make a gift to behavioral grooves, how can they get their minds around you and me, Tim? I love how you picked up. I think how you picked up on that segue is just fantastic. Isn't it amazing how, it's just like a, you know, I was thinking about this. Let's give them an example. Like, if they were thinking about giving a gift to behavioral grooves, how would they go about doing that? Okay, well, I think that there's several ways that they could give to behavioral grooves to get into our minds, right, into the minds of Curt and Tim that do this without any compensation. A grover could start by maybe at the highest level link to our Patreon site and make a pledge, you know, give some money every month. Nothing crazy, like a hundred or five hundred dollars a month doesn't have to be that. And that's a, that's a perfectly acceptable monetary gift that was just like the graduation gifts, right? This is, there's no shame in just giving money and, and, you know, demonstrating your, the, you know, that you appreciate us. And that would be, but what if you, we would have, we would appreciate you for that gift. Totally. So like, what if it were just like 1% of that extravagant, the totally extravagant gift would be like 500 a month. You don't have to do that. But what if you just gave 1% of that, like $5 a month or $6 a month? Yeah, if you're a tight wad, you know, that's fine. If you're a spendthrift, you know, you got to double that, right? You got to triple that. There you go. Or we know, then, then we know you mean it. We know you mean it. That's right. That's right. If you are not in the monetary gift category, you could just leave as a review. Again, nothing crazy. Yes. Doesn't have to be six or seven paragraphs. Doesn't have to be an essay on why behavioral groups is like your favorite podcast in the entire universe. Just, just take a small percentage of that, like just three or four complete sentences. That would be great. Or they could just give a quick rating, like five stars, on your favorite, you know, podcast app. I mean, that would be great Apple Spotify, Podbean, wherever you look to listen, they could rate us. That would be a gift. That would be a very powerful gift. Or if they wanted to just send out an email to their friend with a link to one of our episodes, maybe this episode and give that as a gift to somebody else, a gift of behavioral grooves to somebody else, that is actually a gift to us as well. Or promote, just take a little bit of social media and share it with your feed, with your friends on social media. You could just getting the word out. That could be a great gift to Kurt and Tim and a gift to your social media followers, because now they get the gift of behavioral grooves. So nicely done, Mr. Lohan. Nicely, nicely done. All right. Is there anything else we had to add? No, I think that we are complete there. So with that, Grovers, we hope you pack up some of these wonderful insights about spendthriffs and tightwads. And we use them. You use them this week to go out and find your groove.
