606
Euro 606: The Morning After the Night Before
- Good morning. This is a special 6-0-6 taking your calls on 08085-909693. How do you feel this morning after England's pain? - I've absolutely got it, pal. Absolutely, you know, I just can't, I can't explain it, mate. But once we got to this final, I knew we would be humiliated and humiliated we were. - It's frustrating, is what it is. Actually, I think Kane would have been used better as a substitute in this tournament. Gareth needs to be given the proper credit here. I think he's done an incredible job in getting us to a level that I didn't anticipate ever being against. - This is BBC Radio 5 Life. Call free 08085-909693. Text 85058. Text will be charged at your standard message raise. Plus, see our privacy notice. BBC.co.uk/5life. - We heard from fans last night, but how are you feeling this morning about England's final defeat to Spain and the future of the team? But your call now 08085-909693 alongside me is naturally pike. Good morning, Matt. - Good morning, Rob. And I know the lines were crazy last night, so we've got a special morning edition today of 6-0-6. And to be fair, you were up pretty late. You're looking quite fresh, considering, you know, you've been working hard for once, Rob. - Yeah, certainly have not been as good as your last night. To be fair, I thought humiliation, it wasn't humiliation in the final. Losing to what Spain, I thought that was happening. There were a few harsh callers last night, Matt. - Will they angry with if frustrated? Is that fair to say? - Yeah, both. You know, a lot of people saying should Harry Kane have started. He was always going to start. I'm sure we'll come on to that. And what will Southgate decide now? Because I think he's got to be Southgate's decision. I don't think the FA will sack him and I don't know they should. I think he'll be up to get a Southgate what he decides. - And what do you think that will be? - I'll ask Stephen Morel, who's alongside us. You know, X England's National X teammate of mine had the best prediction of the Premier League season. You know, Chris Hammard him for saying Aston Millivord finished fourth. I backed him all the way. It was a great prediction. Stephen, how are you? - Very good. Thank you. - Lovely to see you. - Lovely to see you. - Lovely to see you. - So, go on then. Ganna Southgate, what do you think he'll do? - I think it's very interesting. I think he'll, I think what the lot of the talk will be is that after the World Cup in Qatar, he was very similar to the way he is, or was last night after the game, a little bit deflated. I think when he goes back and thinks about how the tournament went, how he reflects on it, I still think he'll stay. - Do you? - Yeah, I think there's something there where he'll, there's unfinished business. I think he'll think and need to win one of these finals that we keep getting to. - Oh, you think he'll stay? What do you think that? - I don't know. I think there's a lot of England fans that just creaked when you said that or groaned when you, when you said that. And I think, I think a people, a lot of people will be surprised if he stays. And maybe the FA does need to step in. - England fans, what do you think the number to call is '08, '08, '05, '09, '06, '93, I got out of that one really well, didn't I? So, let's go to Dan. How are you, Dan? - Morning, Robbie. How are you, morning everyone? - Good morning. So, Stephen thinks you'll stay, Dan. - Yeah, I don't think he will. I think, first thing I want to thank Cole Palmer for giving me a moment with my son last night because I've missed the last euros with my son. I've missed when Newcastle made the caravile cup final with my son. So, I was determined to see this final with him and Cole Palmer gave me one moment of absolute pure accuracy within last night. So, I want to thank Cole Palmer for that. But I think Gareth Southgate's biggest strength is also his biggest weakness in the fact that he is very, very good at building relationships with players. You cannot take that away from him. The cohesion in the team is superb. However, that does mean that when it comes to the crunching, you have to be, you have to be ruthless as a football manager. And it's something I think that you're going to have to learn Robbie listening to you last night, because I think you might be a little bit too much on the nice side. Sometimes you have to pull your point, you have to be ruthless. And I think everyone's talked about Kane. Now, I've played ten and a half when I play football. Granted, I've never played professional football, but as a certain half, watching Kane play, for me, he'd absolutely joy to play against because he drops off deep. So, I'm going to let him go. Dan, Dan, Dan, Dan, come on, Dan, Dan, Harry Kane would have been a joy to play against. Come on, Danny, what's your play for, Dan? So, Robbie, Robbie, listen, Robbie, listen, Robbie, listen, look, there were times throughout this tournament where the ball went wide and crosses were coming in and Kane wasn't there. Now, you watched the difference between Kane last night and Ollie Watkins. When Ollie Watkins came on, granted we were chasing the game a little bit. But when Ollie Watkins came on, he turns defenders, so they're running towards, as a defender, you hate running towards your own goal. And Alan Sheeran, Gary Linnaker, said this, and with all due respect, Robbie, they're probably better strikers than whatever you were. I know you didn't play that position, but they know what it's all about. Yeah, fair point. And there was an option stat this morning. Kane had one touch in the opposition box in the whole game last night, one touch. He didn't make any penetrating runs in the box from the ball went wide. He didn't scare defenders, defenders, all they had to do, they knew they had to defend the cross because the new Kane wasn't going to come in behind them. And he plays in front of the defense, so he needs to play against it. He looked like he was having trouble reading the game last night. I'm not putting it all on Kane. There were other big problems. Yeah, but Dan, Dan, would you have picked this before the tournament? No, no, I mean, you look at, you look at, I mean, I said before the tournament, and you can ask any of my friends, colleagues, whatever I said before the tournament, with the attacking players that England are playing, we should leave this tournament top scorers. We should have bags of goals in this tournament. Kane scored bundles for by Munich. And this is, this is the thing with Gareth going back to Gareth Southgate. And this is a thing where I think the media needs to hold himself to account. And the fans are equally as guilty of this as well. We have a horrible habit, and I listened to the Mark Chapman and all the guys after the game last night. We have a horrible habit going. We've got Sode and Bellingham Kane. We've got all these great plays. We've got to find a place for them all. You can't do that. It's the same thing as we have with Gerard and I'm hard. Sometimes you have to be rude to him and say, this is what, this is, and this is again a weakness. It doesn't seem to happen at like a style or a tactic that he likes to play. What you need to do as a manager is say, this is my style. This is how we're going to play. These are the players that fit that. I'm going to take the other players anyway, because I can bring them on his impact players. So if I'm going to play phone in the 10 to start with, he's going to be bringing the 10. If he's not impactful, I'm going to change it. I've been phoned off. I'm going to put Bellingham on. I'm going to get him to do what he does and I'm going to change it. And you're sure that with a Spanish manager last night, I mean, I was in the pub, so I didn't hear whether Roger was injured or not. But he took off one of the best plays in the tournament last night at half time and changed it up. And that is the difference between what Southgate does, which is reactive. And reactive often a little too late. We got away with it a lot in this tournament because we were one bicycle kick away from having an isolate moment. Let's not, let's not beat around the bush. And a lot of people, I've heard it throughout the tournament. It's one of the things I don't understand. Southgate saying the people saying Southgate was brave with his substitutions. I'm sorry, in every room I was sat in, everyone was calling for those substitutions about 20 minutes earlier. Every pundit on the radio, every co-commodator on the radio was saying, you need to make changes. And the changes weren't brave. They were necessary changes. Do you know what my concern was? Dan, sorry to interrupt you. My concern last night was listening to Gareth after the game had finished. And he said, Harry perhaps wasn't up to full speed. And I'm thinking, well, you've got to make a decision on that. And you've got to say, well, he can't play. If he's, if you don't feel he's up to full speed, then you've got to put someone in who is up to full speed, that's basically going on a reputation of last season saying, but you've got to adapt throughout the tournament, and that's where I think Gareth ours is down. But you know as well that I do that the amount of times we played when we went up to full speed, but because you were an important player, you would play. 100%. Yeah, but this is big tournament football. And no, but you know, but you look at it and go, how many times, how many times towards the end, you know, there's our 30s where you weren't quite right. And, you know, you'd play and you'd get through it. And listen, he was English top scorer. Oh, no, but you get through it. But the difference in this is that you're picking from the elite. When you're at club football, maybe your substitutes aren't the elite. You've got elite players constantly. And that's the difference. You know, that chance for Watkins when he came on, yeah, if came was in that position and he would have, you know, one touch in the box with it last night, would you have rather that chance to fall to Watkins? Okay. Good point. You say he's England top scorer, though. It's three goals. It's not make it sound like it's still top scorer, rages. I mean, I think that reflects more in the whole of the game. That almost got hit. All of the trauma got seagulls. I mean, I think there was a whole issue of goal scoring in the entire tournament. But can you have a top scorer that got score there? I know, but you're making it sound like that. Look, that's a problem with the whole England team. Have you seen the stat that's been going around? I saw it last night. I read it straight away. It was shocking. And Harry Kane had just one touch in the opposition box that was in both finals, the 2020, the 20 final three years ago and the 24 final one touch in the opposition box. I don't know. The jack really, she's had more than that. And he wasn't even in the squad. And Cole Palmer should have a left city. Anyway, carry on. You know what? You should be glad that Cole Palmer hadn't have left city. He would be in that team last night. And I'm happy to hold my hand up and say that. Our next caller, we've got Alex. I was going to say evening, but good morning, Alex. And what are you making of the talk about Harry Kane and Gary Southgate? Well, I'm going to reiterate if if Harry Kane wasn't well, wasn't performing at his best, he had another group of elite players. And unfortunately, Southgate wants to do it defensively. We are an attacking nation. The team, the premiership is an attacking team. Well, that's what we should have done. Nobody would have failed. Nobody would have been unhappy if he would have had their team attack and we lose to one. But we were defending. I thought the best form of a defense is attack. I don't understand why I do understand because he's a defensive minded manager. God, Alex, tell us what you'd have done. Well, I'm not a manager. I would have said to, okay, I would have said to Harry Kane, give us all you've got for 20 minutes, half an hour. And then I don't think he did that anyway, though, because this is one thing that really irks me as is that people say, "Harry Kane hasn't tried." He hasn't tried. No, no, but you've just said there, give us all you've got for 20 minutes. He probably gave you all he's got anyway. But he couldn't have 90 minutes in him because he's injured. So he gives, I've seen managers, I'm going to feed you, and the manager said to his players, who aren't as good. He says, "Give me everything you've got for the 45 minutes or 20 minutes. Don't worry about being subbed. I'll sub you when I have to." But therefore, he therefore Kane knows he can run or do whatever he has to, get in the box, and then maybe he scores. But do the sound of it, Alex, instead of trying to last 90 minutes. Yeah, but you can't just tell him to run round pointlessly. There's got to be an aim to the running round. Like, I did. Yeah. Yeah, but that's right, why you have a name, but then if he's not going to run, he's not going to force defenders into making mistakes. So this has come about. Harry Kane for the last two or three years of his career has dropped into that 10. We all know how Harry Kane plays. Every ponder, every fan watching him play for Spurs, dropping to that 10. Harry Kane, when he plays at that position, needs runners in behind. Tom was great for him at Spurs. Yeah, by a minute, he goes there. He's got runners in behind Musialo, Stephen, you know, who rates and we all rate. So everybody knows Harry Kane's going to play like that. He plays like that for England and he's getting hammered and he's escaped. Go. I think it's harsh on Kane. Well, we all know how did you know how Harry Kane plays for the last two or three years? We all know how then we set up the team around him then. If you're not going to do it, then that's the thing. The manager has the pieces. So the manager has to set up the team. If he's not going to set up the team around Harry Kane, then he then dropped Harry Kane and set up the team around somebody else. You have to have a plan, stick to the plan. Well, Gareth, he did stick to the plan. He failed. He failed against your final. Well, did we win anything? Did we come up against Germany? You come up against the best team and you failed against the best team in the tournament by far. In the tournament, but far as the media was concerned about you. Spain was the best team in the tournament. I don't, as far as the media was concerned and you was concerned, before the tournament, England was one of the favourites, one off, one off, but Spain have got better players. Why were we the favourites? Because we... Spain have got better players. Spain have got better players. Do you ban him? Is he not a good player? Yeah, very good player. Well, did he play in Spain? The best player in Spain? So we had the good player. Spain have got better players. You don't need to be better players to win a game. You just need to work as a team. That's why you've got a manager. You get your team. It doesn't matter if the opposition are better than you. You stop them playing. You play to your abilities. Let me ask Steven. Alex, thank you for the call. Let me ask Steven and Nat. Did England fail? It depends what the remit was from the FA, but from our point of view. Robbie, they failed. You've got to win it. I do feel you've got to win it with the group of players you've got. My big thing with Gareth is I am a big believer in Gareth's done an amazing job of getting England to a certain point, but there's got to be a manager now who can take you to that net. Did you think you'd win it with that back four? No. Well, he got then. So you just said, no, you don't think you're going to win it? No, I didn't say no, but with that back four more. I'll make your mind up. But no, but I didn't believe we went up before the tournament. So there, so they haven't failed then. No, no, but they've failed because they've reached a final and there's an opportunity. They won't run us up last time. They only run us up. They've got to go better than that. In history. In history. He has taken them to a new level in terms of where they've finished in tournaments. Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's the highest level they should be at. I have Spain got better players in England. I think I think if you imagine it up, if you do, you know, an 11 or two teams because lots of our callers, they watch the Premier League week in week out. You know, they might not watch the league or other leagues around the world, but there's better players in Spain right now. I think as a squad on a whole, the squad's better for England, but then individually starting 11, I think it'd be very, very close. I think Spain had probably had you. Right. If you're a manager now, you have got an unlimited budget and any player in the world is going to come to Mackelsfield. What players from England and what players from Spain are you taking? And they're taking more Spanish players up from the tournament. Really? 100%. Not from the tournament. Now that's not fair. Not from the tournament. Look at their entire, look at them last time. Look over how the natural would start. Natural, the Norman was that, you know, gay, he did well this tournament. You would have had gay to be as good as he was. Yeah, one of England's players. Trippier wouldn't start. Good, Corell, that'd be for the tournament. You know, we had a great tournament because he's played his right position. So, you know, Williams, your mile. So there you go. Fabian, William, Foden, on the tournament, would you have started those two? You're just going to say, you had four of us that every game in all the world. Don't just look at them, sign them based off last season and the tournament off everything. Sign them, you've scouted them for a while. Yeah, of course you would. But there's a bias towards the Premier League, because we watch the Premier League week and week out. Yeah. And around the world, there's fantastic teams, fantastic players. But obviously, there's a bias towards because the Premier League is the best league in the world. Well, you heard Alex say they say Bellingham was the Spanish player of the, I think, finish his junior. Probably put his hands up and say that he had a call for that. So there is a bias to English players and Premier League players. But I think you overstating it a bit. I think you've just said, can't walk and fill four with the players of the tournament. No, I didn't. Did you hear me say that? No, it's just winding you up. There's a bad city bias. Roger with the player with the tournament, though, and there's no bias. Here's one for you. Kane, does he have a different tournament playing for Spain? With them two wingers either side? Yeah, possibly does. Because it's about a system that fits players, isn't it? Real say, real. But I look at, I look at Phil Foden and Bellingham and Kane, and that just congests everything, doesn't it, with the way that they play. And I look at that system and think you do need wide fliers. You've got to have them to free up that space for them players. But then who'd you drop? That's the problem, isn't it? You came Foden and Bellingham. And this is the biggest problem is everyone looks back in hindsight and goes, oh, we shouldn't have played Kane. We should have put Foden here. We should have done this, that and the other. That's how difficult this job is. And I don't think people understand it. So when you say, is it a failure? When you said, yeah, it was. No, no, but I say, I say, yes, it is, because you won the win the final. But then the other side of it is, is the balancing that he's done time and time again in tournaments. You've got to hold your hat, like tip your hat to him and say, he does an incredible job of doing it. My big thing with Gareth is, I think, and I've said this before, I think he's an amazing front of house. I think he does a great job with the media. I think he does a great job with the players. But I think the other side that you need to, it is, you've got to have a tactical guy within the changing room who can see things as things are developing him in a game. England's aim is not to qualify or to be run as up. England's aim is to win a tournament, therefore it's a failure. But I'd love to know what the callers think is 080085909693. And you could also watch us today, which I know you knew, because you did your Air Robbie on the business sport website. Yeah, certainly didn't that. Who's next? We've got Andy. Good morning, Andy. How are you feeling? I'm feeling, excuse me, I'm feeling absolutely gutted. I'm really upset. I understand this love into Kane. But look at the pattern of the tournament. We go behind, we make changes, we score. We go behind, we make changes, we score. Last night we go behind, we make changes, we score. Have the courage to make the changes from the start and repeat, say, let's score first. And I think that we should have started with Watkins and Palmer. I think the changes, it's obvious as to those on your face. You make the changes, we score. We were so much better when those players were on in those games, we were more effective, we were more dynamic, we were better and we scored. So why not do that from the start? And it becomes a point where every great player either has to be dropped eventually because they're either running out of steam or they're in effect, or they're injured. So it came a day when Bobby Moore had to stop playing for England, when Beckham did, when Rooney did, when Jeff Hertz did. I was so upset earlier in the tournament when Gareth talked about experimenting in the group stage. You have a caller on last night who said, let's use them in friendlies, let's play our first 11. Absolutely. How often do these players get to play together in games? How often do they get to understand each other? Start friendlies. I went to 50 games at the new Wembley when it opened in a row, ended up stopping going because it was boring, it was pointless, it was methodical, it was a waste of money, it wasn't entertaining. Start. And by the way, Chris Sutton was a disgrace last night, when he said it didn't matter that we lost at home to Iceland, in the friendlies. Chris is not a disgrace, that's not a sticker for my partner there. No, no, no, no, it didn't matter that England lost. It mattered to the people who were there. It mattered to the young kids who'd gone to see their heroes play and went away from that game having seen their heroes lose. It mattered to England's times in terms of the record that we lost at Holley. You know, when you say about friendlies and the caller did say it last night and Steve has been in England squads, so if you just play your first 11 every friendly and every training camp, you know, what's the best, what's the point of having a squad? Because there, and Steve has been at a little bit hanging around that mask in a former England, and Ashley has been in the squads. If you know that's the mentality and the methodology of just saying, you know what, we're going to play our first 11 every single friendly togetherness and its shape, and so we know exactly what we're doing, squads wouldn't exist because I'm sure Steven, ex-England internationals who were on fringes, you'd end up saying, you know, last day at my club, no point. 100%. And I think when you listen to the players now and the way that they talk about the togetherness within the squad and how Gareth's changed things, that is because they give opportunities. It doesn't have to be a full game, but you've got to feel like you've played your part within it. Andy, my question back to you would be, you said you'd start call Palmer, for who? Yeah. I would have dropped Kane. I would have dropped him. But you said you wanted to walk in. I would have had Palmer and Watkins in the team. For who? For Kane and who? Possibly, possibly the way the tournament was going. Because I just think that I look at the pattern, we went behind, we split changes, we score, we went behind, we make changes, we score, we went behind, we make changes, we score. Where would you have played Palmer then? Where he was played? No, if you left Ford down, if you left Ford, if you left Ford and out, yeah, you saw Watkins would have started as the line has had a Kane. Where would you have played Palmer, who for Chelsea all season off the right hand side, it's got all his goals. So where would you have left for? Now where would you play Palmer? I'm the right hand side, what's wrong with playing them? Having two up front? So where would you, two up front, where Palmer at front? Yeah. He's not played up front? Yeah, he's scoring goals. I'm not playing on the right hand side. All the point I'm just trying to make is that I think that Garris should have had much more courage. It was so obvious that we were a better team after he made changes, after we went behind. Andy, thank you for your call. So Andy says at Southgate lacks courage. What do you think? Give us a call 0805909693. Michael, do you think Garris Southgate lacked courage? I think Garris would have been sacked back in 2012 and 2022 when we got beaten and that Molly knew by Hungary. The football was insipid. It was bland. He's tactically inept and he's tactics is if he's still got that bag on his head from the peak to hurt advert. I knew from the get-go England we're not going to win this. I think we were second or first or second favourites after France or France were just ahead of us on odds checker when I checked. We wouldn't have beaten Germany. We wouldn't have beaten France and we as I knew yesterday we were not going to beat the Spanish. It was awful football. The man's out of his debt. He was sacked by Bora. He stumbled into the job by the daily telegraph. He didn't get it on merit. He got it because Big Sam got caught with his hands wherever they were and it's just awful football. We're never going to win anything with Garris Southgate. The times I hear people on the TV and the radio going, "It's coming home. It's coming home. It's never coming home." And the Garris Southgate sacrificed so many square balls. People are lauding him as an aspects thing and you got Anthony Gordon. It was tearing up the wing a new castle and I'm hoping he goes back to Liverpool to Anfield. Day he was brilliant and if the rooms are true I'd love to see him at Anfield. As other callers have said we are spoiled with the Premier League. Spain gave us a lesson in football. We stumbled into this final. We are not worthy of actually being in there. It should have been France, Spain. That was a much better game. Spain, Germany was a much better game. England were awful. Any positives? Any positives? Any positives? Any positives? It's not really. It's the hope that kills you. The hope died with me years ago. I remember watching that Iceland game when Royal Hodgson again out of his bed, he should have gone after Brazil. The FA keep choosing safe. So which managers have been right for England then? In your time watching England? I don't know how old you are. I'm old enough to know that it was a definite handball by Maradona. I thought Bobby Robson was robbed. We should have won in Mexico or at least got to the final because the Argentinians robbed us with that fouling cheating. I don't like Pellet for me. It's the greatest footballer the world has ever seen. They were on another planet. This was awesome as well as Nico Williams. I hope he goes to Liverpool. But we've got... Anyone else? Well, look, Bobby Robson should have won. Bobby Robson was so unlucky with penalties. The only thing, the only decent thing we did was we knocked five in. I mean Trent Alexander Arnold, Stephen Warnock. I'm hoping we'll back me upon this. We have a player in Warnock who has a one of a right foot. He runs the game for Liverpool yet. Southgate puts Walker on, who's a speed merchant. Yes, your walkers quick. But both of those goals, Walker was out position. The Walker was England's best player last night. No way, no way, no way. I don't think many of them can say they were best players. Walker shouldn't have... Walker should hang up his boots. Thanks, Kyle. Walker remains one of the best whitebacks in the world. The thing is, Walker could not hit a cow's backside with a banjo passing a whole lot. Premier League winner... Four times Premier League winner in a row, Kyle Walker is not one of the best whitebacks in the world. With 115 charges, don't forget their little asterisks. 115 charges over those Premier League wins by the way. That's absolutely not those 115 do not apply to our three years. Let's just take it back anyway. So, the point I was going to say was the four-nil against Hungary. I was at that game working for Five Live and was with Dion Dublin. We were chatting, doing sort of a chat after the game. And I did say after that game, I thought Southgate wasn't the right man for the job. Give yourself a pat in the back, wasn't it? No, no. But the thing was, I still don't think he is, I still think... You've just said he's going to carry on five minutes ago. I'll make your mind. No, but I didn't say I want him to, because what I'm saying is, I don't think he'll take himself out of that position. I don't think the FA will, because the FA have got a man who's in control in charge who they know is trustworthy, who's... Who was having chosen? At the moment, I'd look at options. Do you want an Englishman or do you want a foreign man? Are you looking at Eddie Howe? And Eddie Howe, progressive front-foot football, attacking football, goes after a game in the way that he plays. You'll look at Graham Potter, I don't think he's the right man, he'll be linked with it. You look at De la Fuente and he goes, was he... He's won the 19s, the 21s, and then comes through it. You laughed when you said before Lee Carsley. I didn't laugh at all. You did, you weren't... Would you give it Lee Carsley? Would I give it Lee Carsley right now? No, why not? Because he's not the right look, or he's not got the right CV. Why not? What is it within his credentials or his style of management? What's he won? Just refreshes, what's he won with the 21s? Who? Carsley, won the... What was it, the euros, was it? Yeah, I think it was, yeah. The euros, yeah. So does he deserve a chance at doing that job, or is it because he's not got the experience? I would say the experience. So what did De la Fuente have? It's a fair point, it's a fair point. That's a really fair point, Stephen. But we all look at this, we want this name as a manager, don't we? Well, everyone's talking about what that wasn't a name, and they've gone down that route. No. They've gone down that route of a manager from the 21s, who's done well, yeah. He's got two finals, yeah. He's according to you two, he's failed. Yeah, but that's not the question. The question is, is who do you want next? I have two, so you've gone, you think Eddie Howe? I'd say Eddie Howe's a good candidate. Listen, I've got, I'd keep Gareth Southgate. I would keep Gareth Southgate. Why do you think he's good enough tactically to move this team forward to make big enough decisions? He left Trippy out last night, playing every game, put shorting. That was a big decision. Yeah, but it was a big decision to only take a left back, who was on the edge of that fair point. Up until then, they got to the final. Yeah, was it a little bit lucky with the route, with the draw again? I'll tell you what then, so Gareth Southgate, what you can do, Gareth? I'll tell you what, you can only finish top of your group, and tell you what, if you finish top of the group, this is the route you're going to have. It's not his fault he finished top of the group, and you can't, I'll tell you what then, let's finish second or third, and let's play Fran saw Germany earlier. It's not Gareth Southgate thought they won the group. Okay, would you, would you be happy with the, the, the performance of the team, and knowing that they're not really getting to the peak and not performing up until like, who, who, who were the, who were the, who were the confidence going into it? Only Spain, Spain were at the peak. Germany went at the peak. Yeah, but France went at the peak, Belgium went at the peak, but who won it? Yeah, Spain, because they were at the peak. Yeah, because you got them to the peak, because you gave them an identity and an idea of how to play. This is the UK's biggest football debate. This is 606 on BBC5 Live. Welcome back to 606, 085, 909693, we're live on the BBC's sport, website taking your calls toll, 11am, I'm joined by Stephen Wan and Natalie Pi, and it's been, you know, quite fine, I can't, I see, I can't believe you two are saying England failed. But Robbie, England's aim at a tournament is, is to win it, therefore, if they don't, they have failed. Who's been the most successful manager for England since 1966? Well, in successes, in terms of got the most, I'm asking the question, the most progress into a tournament. That's the question. It's Gary Southgate, but that doesn't, but that doesn't mean that's not England's limit though, is it? England fans don't go, yeah, we got to the final, that's our limit. Right, let's bring in Paul, that's what does Paul think? Yeah. Oh, I would just, yeah, just a few kind of points interested in, obviously, yeah, right, let's go start, right. Harry Kane, back in with the Bayern unit, lower back with the last two games. Comes into a tournament for a few weeks later, seven games in 28 games, and he's right. What I'm saying is, the times, Harry Kane has got to be selfless, not selfish, if it's out there, ain't gonna do it, after the following game, no, that's not right, I've tried it, this out before the first game, after the sixth game, anyway, I don't think, that's not right, let's get it right, and then he'd have changed it, and we'd be gotten stuck there. Now, if Kane ain't gonna say it's out, Southgate, Chad's ain't gonna say it's win, it's the best striker in the world, and he's in the conversation to be dragged out for an hour in a final, he's in the conversation, not to start it, that's the problem, he's the terrorist man, he leads the team physically with pitch, you know, that first off, it was thrashing about like he'd done something, the competitions played with the bros, and I felt for him in a way, he set them all, he kept tackling, he got booked for a tackle, it was descending, it was at the rest, it was awful, the players, probably even though, the players know a lot more than what we do, a lot more, they didn't want to knock it up to him, picked, they kept pulling it to the right, so you're playing with the passing job, they aren't able to buy their best player, Roderick, come on for off, so I'm because he's injured, or a player we're back on, but he's had me lead isn't it, you gotta check it out then, talk about your bit of stuff, listen, you've grabbed your feet from the doors, a bit to where a couple of times now, until we've got a moderate, a perlo, a number six through six there, and does a little time on your passes, because Depp and Rice doesn't, because our techs have bought another player, it bought Georgina, it was Depp and Rice for what the pitch, so who's that man, Paul? No, no, I mean for England, if he's not your number six, who's your number six? So yeah, that's room two, in game management, what you argue with, that's okay, I don't know a lot of rights people that don't want to really emblem and stuff like that, but at the end of the day, he said that could suck secretism, listen, he ain't doing it for nothing, you don't give a job for nothing, and he always says that, I don't mind the guy, he comes on and says, well, we are first eating these things to get to two successive finals, but he ain't going to tell me we're the first thing to lose to, aren't we, and it's all this all to talent losers, but you know, as well as me boys, the players conspiracy, you know, Robert, you and that, you all know more than me luck was on, they're supposed to be in some unrest in the squad, I'm not, you ain't going to keep a bond up there when the squad evolves after eight, eight years or four tournaments, that's why it's been lost to my rest. You could probably get two and two and get four out of that car here, because you've got people there, Shane, Harry Kane took me and not getting the looking, so that calls them right. I think, listen, I think, I'm not sure there's been an arrest, Paul, I've, I've not heard that, I think the hardest thing to do for any manager club international is keep a group of players happy, you know, this, and, and what I'm seeing is I've heard every player speak loyalty about Gary Southgate, I might be wrong, I've not heard of unrest at all, and for him to keep that many players happy, yeah, I think it's a testament to Gary Southgate. The thing is, well, the thing is in that first off, right, if he's in the equation in a championship final, one of the best writers in the world keeps saying that on his day, when he's fit, if he's in the conversation to be dragged after an hour, in a European championship final, for your country, he's in the conversation not to stop that game, Paul's stopped, and we know that, you know that, and he could have took it out of his hands, Kane could have took it to him, it's a blind, loyal set, and that's what people can see. He's the management, he's the Jamie Bordet, you know, that we're on the bench against grey, so when we're sitting back, but the fans ain't that, you know, they can see this, we can see this, they've felt for him, but I felt for him away, because you were thrashing about lock it, lock it, lock it, an average player, trying to get involved in the game. Paul, thank you so much for your call. We have so many calls that the phone lines are going crazy. If you get an engaged tone, please keep trying, it's 0805 909693, a huge volume of calls because people feel very, very passionate about what we're talking about, so we're going to try and get through as many as we possibly can. Elias, I hope I pronounced that right, good morning. Yes, you did. Good morning. Good morning, Elias. What would you like to say? I'd like to say, in my opinion, it's a perfect disgrace, England even made it to the final, the second best in nearly every game they played, and all the good teams in one half, and all the not so good teams in the other half, you know, that's basically it, so people going on about this competition, England should be over the moon even made it to the final. I do agree with this to a certain degree that the route was easy. That's not Gareth, sounds good, he's fought, he won the group. No, I know that. Yeah, struggled within the group. He won the group. Yeah, before the start of the tournament, what was the aim? Was it to win the group? Yeah, they do that. Yeah, he did, but you've got to do it within a way that you get believed. Tournament football, you've got to win games. Go get through. Okay, so it's like, you've got to peek at a certain point. Did you ever see any, now be honest here, right? Because I know this is tough for you. At any point in that group stage, did you think this England team's getting better? No. Did you actually think when they progress out and play better teams, that it's going to get better for England, and they stand more of a chance to win in the tournament? That first half was against, when he changed to two tens, yeah, it got better, yeah. Yeah, for how long? 45 minutes. But then? Not really, no. No, and that's the concern, is that when you're going up against better teams, and Garrett's record against better teams is poor. His decision-making in games, I think he struggles with, I think that is the decision in the last few games was decent. He brought on Palmer and Watkins, who scored after 79 minutes. Yeah, he got the winner in the last minute, and then he brought on Palmer in the final, who scored? So in the last two games, his decision-making was good. It was okay. But you bring on subs, you score, and have an impact. How can you get better than that? Yeah, here's a question for you. You're a manager now. Harry Kane's not fully fit before the tournament. Not playing well during the tournament. Did you carry on with him? He scored goals. No, no, but would you have carried him on in the team? Because he's one of my best players. Would you have played him in the semis in the finals? Yeah, would have you? Yeah. Interesting. Elias, what do you think about what everyone's been saying about Kane? Harry Kane, to me, should never have made it in the team in the first place. He's not good enough to build a team round. Oh, come on, Elias. He's got 40 of your goals last season. They're one of the biggest clubs in the world. Come on, Elias. Why is it everywhere he goes? They don't win nothing. Well, that's not on Harry Kane. No, no, what do you... Why is it Harry Kane? Why is it Harry Kane and Harry Kane? Harry Kane is way, way overrated. Over and what? Overrated? Of course, he's overrated. Yes, 100%. If everyone's passing the ball to him, he's going to score goals. If he's not there, then they're played based through the team. Elias, you're talking absolutely not. So, Elias, you could have done that then, could you? I'm not a bloody footballer, am I? What do you mean I could have done that? No, no, but you've just said there, anyone could have scored. If there's passing the ball and he scores it, well, you've got quite quality. If Harry Kane is okay, when he's on the pitch, everyone looks for him. Okay? When he's not on the pitch, they're played better as a team. That's the difference. What does this agree? It may as well. Come on, Elias, he's not overrated, Harry Kane. Yes, 100%. 100%. How was he overrated? Because if he's not on the pitch, okay? Remember when he was a man united, and I think he was up injured for a while. Yeah, then all the teams started scoring, didn't they? We did the same thing like this, same scenario. If Harry Kane is not on the pitch, okay? Trust me, they're played better as a team. Well, Elias, it's your opinion. Thank you so much for the call. Is Harry Kane overrated, away to 8599693? Amia, how are you? I'm very well, guys, and good morning, great show, as always. I guess just ask for that question, Harry Kane overrated. Hurts me as an Arsenal fan to say, no, he's not. I do think he's well-classed. But my point about the England job is, I think we've just got to probably take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I think where England were and where Goutes' outfit has taken them is pretty phenomenal. But I do agree with Steven is that I think he's reached a ceiling. I think we see it also in club football, managers come in, they do a job, and they take a team to a certain point. But then if you want to be able to kick on, then you've got to probably come up with new ideas, and new concepts. And I think this is a great position for actually the FA in England, and even as English fans for us to be, and it's that we've got a phenomenal group of players. We've got players that are now playing abroad, they're playing under amazing managers. I think the biggest decision the FA have to decide now is what direction do they want to take the England team in? Because I can't remember the last time anybody, what every single football player, I mean, apart from once they've sort of just joined a football club, wants to actually go and play for England before it's a case of, well, is it club is it country? Now every player is going to be looking and thinking, I want to play for England, I want to be that guy, and Gert, even if he looks at what's happening with the lionesses, in that team. But I think the question is, do we go domestic, do we go foreign? Do you think he may? Do you mind? If I'm honest, no, because if I asked you yesterday, if we had a foreign manager, and we played sensational football, and those players, and I think what probably frustrates everyone is the potential, is that we've now got, in most positions, some outstanding guys, you've got Jude Bellingham, who had England one, could have won Ballondor, right? The guy is probably the closest thing we've had to visit, and you've got Phil Foden, you've got a plethora of strikers, you've got some great wingers, look at Gordon, look at Palmer. I think Palmer is probably one of the most gifted players, a guy plays football like he's playing PlayStation, and I think any manager in the world, if he was given an opportunity to manage England, would probably throw their hat in the ring if England, if the FA came knocking. So the question is, do we go foreign, do we go domestic? I say pick the best man for the job, we've got a great group of players for the next four to six years, we've got a great identity. Who's the right man then? I don't know, pal. I mean, if I was Jürgen Klopp, I'm an Arsenal fan, right? But the guy's out of contract, he doesn't want the pressures of domestic football day in, day out, surely, an international job, he's right up in the street, but with the FA, I'd be having back whole conversations with the guy at least. You'd walk them conversations, but the big thing with Klopp is that he is a day to day guy, and the style of football that they play, and the intensity that they play at, that takes a lot of work, and you listen to players come into the team, and you look at Fabinho was the one where he spent probably six months out the team, he couldn't get in the team, and it was like, no, it takes a year to understand the system, to learn it, to get used to it, that's the difficulty with someone like Jürgen Klopp. I like Hamier's point, though, that Jürgen Klopp said that he was naked, essentially, so maybe they're balanced. I don't understand the ball, yeah? That would be interesting. Well, a core parmour is so much praise, but to be fair, core parmour would not have been the core parmour we've seen, because you wouldn't have had the opportunity to see the city. So at times, you have to move on. Robbie glared at me. Anytime much, some of you make his full parmour, Robbie glared at me. What's core parmour getting to see his team now? I think that he would have a good chance of getting his part of the rotation. Well, as part of the rotation that city plays, as part of the team squad, and when you go to city, you accept that it's a rotation for many of the positions, and I think he would, but do I regret of selling him Robbie? No, I don't, because he wasn't going to get in the team at the time. Right, next caller, we've got Michael. Michael, I hear you might be on Steven and Mise's side with the idea that England failed. Well, they did fail, and when Robbie Savage talks about them not failing us, because he never won anything either. They failed because they didn't win. You want to leave, come Michael, too, fair. Oh, well done, terrific. Well done. 30 years of football and you won't want pro-face, brilliant. Really tough. Listen, not ever be winning trophies. Do you know what Michael's really tough playing in the Premier League for a long season later? The point is England are never going to win anything. Until we change the time when the players of the fittest. So those players were exhausted after what? 60 games last season. So how many matches did the Spanish players play? If you let me make my point, Robbie, they were tired as well. They were tired as well. Robbie, will you let me make my point? Go on with them. Go on with them. Good. The point is if they switch the start of the season so that the players are not exhausted when these competitions come up in June, July, we stand a better chance of winning. Robbie League did the same thing 10 years ago, 15 years ago, where they moved the start of the season so it didn't clash with other sports. But unless we get to a position where our players are not exhausted at the start of the competition, we'll never win it. So how would that look then, Michael? What would you say the start of the season would be? Because I'm not a rugby league fan, so we'll understand what it will do. So we generally think that the players may be pushing everything back by three months. So we generally feel that the players are at their fitness after Christmas up to Easter. So if we started our season later... When? When would you start the season? In what month? Yeah. I don't know. It would be in November, December. So you're going to start football in November, December? Are you wanting to compress it from 10 months down to about seven months? There's not time there, Michael. Just run it with a different cycle. But then you're going to cut into the June and July when the tournaments are with the league football. And? You can't play a tournament and a Premier League at the same time. So then the league becomes what? 15 months long? Like, I get your point about exhausted players and you know what, Michael, I'm really worried about next summer. Because if you've seen the FIFA World Club Cup, I forget the thing now, the fact that that's in June for a month. So when the Spanish players tired? No, and hey Robbie, I'm totally with you because the best player on this... When the French players tired? The best player in the tournament was Roderick and he has played what 60 domestic games I see? Yeah. I think the big thing is, and I understand at the point what Michael's making about players being tired, I do think there needs to be a longer period over the Christmas break. I know it's tradition in England for the football, but whether it's that January period, I think it needs to shut down for two weeks. And what that does as well, it allows players to get rid of injuries. It allows them to recuperate. I think you'll see better quality in the second half of the season. I think the quality drops within the second half of the season in the Premier League. You look at Bellingham in that Champions League final. He was exhausted. Look at Harry Kane, now he's formed, dropped off in the last three or four games from Munich. They're just exhausted before they even start. Can't have a howl looked all right last night, and not sure when he came on? And? Can't have a howl played in the last game of the season for Real Madrid in June. And he looked fine. Robbie, there's a pattern here. I know you don't like people disagreeing. No, I do. A lot of people disagreeing with me when they've got one point. Here at England, there's a pattern here. England consistently failing at these competitions. And the root cause, as far as I'm concerned, is that they're just exhausted after 60 games at football. I think the other point that we don't know is we don't know what the training schedule like is when the teams meet up. What the Spanish did, what the French did, what the Germans did, what the English did. Like, how was their training set up? Did they go full tilt straight into the when the squad's announced? Is there a period where the players are rested? Again, we don't know all this scientific stuff, Steve. You've been in England training camp squads. I've been in national team squad, although you've got according to my give up must, you have to win something to be successful, which I disagree with. You know, they've got all the evidence and they would done everything right. Oh, the 100% will, yeah, but the trial and error, isn't it? Is it fitness or is it technical? I thought the other thing, Rob, is that mean you were different. So our training schedules might have to differ. I might need rested more. You might need rested more than that. No, I know that's what I'm saying, but we don't know, do we? Because there might have been elements where the Spanish might have different ideas on things. They might have different ideas towards as well. And that's just... Then it's not an England problem. So then it is an individual problem. It's not a fitness problem because you're talking about Bellingham, so Spain, you're talking about Kane for Germany. It's leagues around Europe are all feeling the same number of games. So Michael, when would you... So Michael, your season then would start November December, when would it finish? August. So you'd have a... It's not going to work, but I understand what Michael's trying to say because the players are exhausted, but my point is that it's all across Europe. It's not just... Well, FIFA are the problems, aren't they? Because FIFA keep on bringing out more games and more competitions and putting more stress. And when you've got the likes of Kevin De Bruyne coming out and saying, "You're causing a problem by putting more games on us." And I go back to that point as well as the less games the players play. Yes, we want to see more football to a certain degree. These players play at the highest level, but you're not going to get them at the 100%. You're going to get them at 60, 70% and that dilutes the quality of football then. Well, you know, Stephen, we played lots and lots of games. But we were... I was fortunate. I know it from talking. Some of the best teams you've ever seen, ever, Liverpool in the 80s. One sub, two subs. I know, but the games evolved, they got fitter stronger faster, and you can speak to former players, and they will tell you that they get fitter and stronger. But I remember going to the World Cup in 2010, coming back for the first three months, I was on a high thinking. I've just been to a World Cup of whatever, I flagged straight after it. Because I had one week off, but the thing was as well. You felt when you went to the World Cup, you had four weeks off as well. Rob, how are you? How are you? Morning, Rob? Oh, morning. How are you doing? I'm all right. How are you? Oh, a little bit hungover, but I'm fine. Okay. Don, you're sorrows all. No, not at all. I mean, I had a amazing time with family and friends watching football last night. And I used to say, you just need to take the positives from the tournament. And I mean, a lot of people have been coming on the call today, they're very negative and like, oh, what positives can you actually take from the tournament? And there is positives. I mean, at the end of the day, we're going to win the final. I do agree with you. Our task is to win the Cup. So we have failed, but there's the positives off the back of that. At the end of the day, we're going to win the final, back to back finals. I think just a lot of people have been quite negative, really. I just think it is hard. I do agree. It could be done in the Premier League, have a couple of weeks rest, as long as they have the rest. So Kane did have a couple of weeks over the winter period. And so not don't forget that. But I just wanted to like put a bit more positivity and take it. What can we get? What's your positivity? Give us some Rob, you start, apart from obviously spending with your friends and family, which is special, give me some other positives. So the positives, I think, basically seeing how when we did do the subs, how the subs came on and actually brought the team up. There's Palmer, who's playing great for club and country. He's getting his time, and he will shine. And we will see a lot more of him in the future, depending on his self-gates days or not. If he's replaced, I do think we'll see a lot of Palmer. The young team, they are young. A lot of them, the youngsters, they're coming through, they're playing well for the clubs and they are playing well for the country. And it's just, I guess, the England team, the reason why we've got better from tournament is gelling together. They don't have, they train over the year, they don't have, how many times in a week, per year, six times. And to gel together, you know how hard it is when you get new players into a squad. But to gel the talent, what we've got and to manage that is really hard. I can't imagine it's going to be easy picking the players day in, day out, who's going to perform them that day. Rob, thank you so much for the call. Why, so a lot of people made England favourites, yeah? Why? You tell me why, you know, England, and some people's eyes were favourites. You tell me why, when France, you've got great individuals, you've been there, one trophy, the Spain, I think, you know, when people went talking about Spain, they've won it. Germany, on home soul, you've got players who have performed brilliantly well, you know, in their domestic leads for Germany. You look at Tony Cross when in the Champions League, Werts, undefeated for bilabicoos and in the league. They are top top players. Yeah, England were made favourites. You tell me why. I'd say this because of what they've done in the past, obviously getting to the finals of the Euros against Italy, then it's also this squad that was in that Euros was younger. It was up and coming. It was more, it was going to get a more experience going into it. I think a lot of people were talking about Bellingham being the best player in Spain, Kane in Germany, Foden in England, and people got carried away with that. And I think people just believe that the quality and attack was enough to see England over the line. I never had Englanders favourites. And the one reason was because of Gareth, Gareth's OK. Ooh, ooh. It's just before the news, he's gone in with that. Were they favourite outside of England as well? I mean, he was in Spain and Germany. Who did they think was favourites? That's what I'd like to know. Spain didn't think they'd get anywhere near it. Spain didn't think Spain would. No, I think they thought with the manager, they didn't believe that the manager was quite there. They also believe that England and Germany and France are better squads than them, which is interesting as well. He's gone in there. Taking your breath away for once. That's brilliant. Well, I don't want nothing. Now, more 606 on Five Life. I've been absolutely jumping. I'm really up there. I understand this loving to Kane. But look at the pattern, the tournament. We go behind, we make changes, we score. We go behind, we make changes, we score. Last night, we go behind, we make changes, we score. Have the courage to make the changes from the start and the peak, so let's score third. We will defeat from Germany. We will defeat from France. I mean, as I knew yesterday, we were not going to beat the Spanish. It was all football. We were one fight. We took away from having an eye for the moment. Let's not. Let's not be around the bush. How we came is way, way overrated. Overrated? Yeah. Overrated. Of course he's overrated. Yes, 100%. And this is the biggest problem is everyone looks back in hindsight and goes, "Oh, shouldn't have played, Kane. We should have put the vote on here. We should have done this, that and the other." That's how difficult this job is. Any manager in the world, if he was given an opportunity to manage England, would probably throw their hat in the ring if the FA came knocking. So the question is, here we go for it, here we go domestic. I say it's the best man for the job. Kane knows he can run or do whatever he has to, get in the box and then maybe score. Yeah, but you can't just tell him to run around pointlessly. There's got to be an aim to the running round. Like I did. Yeah. This is BBC Radio 5 Life. Call free. 08085 909693. Text 85058. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Class CL privacy notice. BBC.co.uk/5Live. Welcome back to a special 606, the morning after England's defeat to Spain in the Euro's final. We are in the studio myself, Robbie Savage and Stephen Warner. You know it's a big occasion when Robbie Savage comes into the studio. We are here till 11 a.m. What do you call? It's 08085 909. Law that. Do you know what, Rob? We've just had England calls all morning, obviously. A lot of sombre, angry England fans. But I'm saying as well, if you're Scottish, if you're Welsh and you want to call up because you're not feeling sombre, you're also very welcome. I'll tell you what as well. Now just before we enter the news, you know, Stephen dropped that bombshell. South it was the problem. Wow. Silence to you for about five seconds. I'll elaborate there, Stephen. Okay, I'll ask you a question. So it's two parts of this question. The first part is, is where does the England job rank in world football? Probably that I would say one of the biggest in world football with the press of the scrutiny. The money is the highest paid manager at the Euro's. So now, I was going to say the Premier League, but I'm not going to go Premier League. I'm going to go within Europe because we always say that the Premier League's the best, but look at the league or in Germany. What clubs given the opportunity? It would take South to get you asked. That's it. But people will look at his managerial career on a day-to-day basis with Middlesbrough. You know, he's obviously a tournament manager. Yeah, you might argue, you both think he failed because they haven't won it, which I think is harsh, personally, because it's harsh, but it's true. I didn't think England would win it before. So my stance is different because I think England will get into a final, you know, with how Gareth Southgate has galvanised the nation, how Gareth Southgate has got players wanting to play for England. You know, we heard the previous call, I was saying that, you know, you want to go and play for England now. I'm not saying it didn't before, but he's created that environment where it looks like it's enjoyable. So again, their fantastic skill sets, aren't they? Yeah, correct. But Man City wouldn't, I don't think it would take him, Manionade, he was like, it would. It would, Manionade. Would Manionade take a circuit? It would, I think they would. There you go. So Natalie thinks that. Yeah, but OK, and that's another one of the bit that the Manionade job is the biggest job in the Premier League. Where do you think they'd finish on the Southgate? Given the squad. Higher than eight now. Do you? Higher than eight. OK. Interesting. And in a tournament, they could, he's proven he's a good tournament manager. What is Denmark? Yeah, fair point. Yeah, because he won two trophies. Yeah. But so you're a manager now. What is your style of football? And then one you watch Gareth Southgate play, his team's play, what's Gareth's style? That's a fair point. My style of football is attacking. I want to start. Listen, I think, you know, it was a different level, obviously. But my style will be to score more goals in that position, because we've got the best players at our level. Yeah. And I've created formation. I'm going to go with different formations to get my best players in the team. Yeah. And that's what Gareth's done. But Gareth's a defence man did manager with an attacking squad. And that's where I feel like you've got to get that balance and bring it in. I mean, the big thing for me is if Gareth's going to stay, what do the best managers in world football do? They refresh the stuff and they bring brand new ideas into the squad and they call or said that last night. Yeah. And I think you've got to add that in. You look at Klopp and Guardiola, they're always refreshing. Oh, wait, two, eight, five, nine, nine, six, nine, three. How are you, Abby? Yeah, yeah, tell them all good and all good. I'm not really the biggest fan of England, but I just want to talk about Declan Rice. Yeah, go ahead. I thought he was terrible in the final. He's not defending. He's not playing the killer path. He goes missing. I've never seen him looking for the ball. I mean, James Madison would have been a much, much better option, 100 percent. Yeah, but not in that position. And James Madison, I think by his own, his own self would probably admit he wasn't playing as well to getting the squad. Yeah, but I think he still could have done better than Declan. But he wouldn't have played in the six and he wouldn't have played as an eight. Yeah. Maybe so. And the other thing I want to say, I don't think Ivan told me got enough time to get on the pitch to prove himself. He won every header when he first came on the last few minutes, which was quite embarrassing for him. I think he should have got more time. You can hold the ball up. I think he would have been much better than Harry Kane. Harry Kane is brilliant, but no matter if you put Messi up there, if he's not getting the service, what can they do to the striker? Yeah, I do think there's an element where Gareth was an element to loyal suppliers. And I think there was a point where I'd like to have seen more of Anthony Gordon. I mean, I'm looking at it from a full-backs point of view. So I'm Luke Shaw or Kieran Trippier as it was in the tournament. And I'm thinking, I want a guy who's going to hook the touchline, who I can play balls into and know I can either support him or can make overlaps around him and the balance of the team's better. I think it'd have also suited Harry Kane. I think you'd have probably seen better from Harry Kane. If you do want to change it and you go with Watkins and Tony, I'd also like to see two strikers and look at Oli Watkins in the Premier League. And I think he plays alongside someone alongside and whether it's DR V or five, three, two, because you've got to play three, you've got you've got to control midfielders. You can't play two midfielders. You can't go 4-4-2. No, but well, that's the thing, isn't it? You're trying to find a balance, but then we'll villa play for box system. Yes, 4-4. Yeah. Yeah. So you're playing that four system, but you're 4-4-2, then. Yeah. But then you're trying to find a balance of what's right. Well, as your fallbacks are giving you the comes from your fallbacks, doesn't it? But again, I go back to the old, this is the problem as an England manager. You've got so many players playing them within different systems at club level that you've ultimately got to try and get the best out of. And you've got to try and find the system that suits every single system. And that is the hardest thing to do with them football. And also last night, I think it would have suited England if they were playing the long ball. All the workers in there can spin, we're playing a high line. Long ball is tough to deal with for Spanish players, I think. I don't know why they weren't just in the long ball trying to get in behind the Spanish defense. Not all the workers had a phenomenal number of assists as well. We've just talked about his goals mainly, but he had a phenomenal number of assists in the league as well. So how could England have used that more to their benefit? Or does that go back to what you're saying, Stephen? Is it just it's just difficult to fit everybody in? I think it is difficult to fit everyone in. I think what Watkins does, though, is he stretches the pitch higher, which would have created more space for Bellingham or Foden in that position. But the defenders of whoever was on goal, do they? You know, you didn't might run towards your own goal. And the biggest thing is that puts the fear into any player is pace. And I feel like if you're going to get soccer in a 1v1, you've got to isolate him. I felt like it was too congested at times again. But you play in Foden and Bellingham, too central for fallbacks. Oh, for teams playing against England, it was very lopsided. You could go narrow on because Foden was coming inside. So your right back could effectively play as a back three. And you just knew double up on soccer. Very predictable. Thank you for your call, Abby. Thank you so much. Keep your calls coming in. We are here till 11. It's 0800 5 909 693. We're trying to get through as many as we can. We've had a huge number of calls. Please keep trying. If you are getting an engaged tone, we are going to get through as many as we can next up. It's Andrew. Good morning, Andrew. What's your thoughts the day after? Good morning. Morning, Robbie. Robbie knows me. I'm Andrew from Greenford, the lifelong chef. Where's their father? How are you, Andrew? I'm okay, Robbie. I'm sorry you had the insults earlier from somebody who's trying to Robbie's show performances. I wish you'd played for us. You wore your heart in your sleeve and you played yourself, that's for sure. Thanks, Andrew. It's a pleasure to show. Is that Andrew? Robbie's just text to call in. No, not at all. Listen, the insults flying around about Gareth Southgate, absolutely ridiculous. Somebody phoned up last night. I heard this saying that we were humiliated yesterday. Humiliated. We lost that game to one. They scored a late goal to beat us and we could easily have equalised after we escaped so close to equalising it, taking it into extra time. The humiliation is when your team is thrashed five or six nil. And that's what would have happened if we went gung ho attack. There's a lot of so-called football experts are saying, why didn't we attack more? Attack, attack, attack. No, no, it doesn't work like that. It's a game of chess. We've did well to reach the final. You think teams like Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Poland, none of them were there last night. We were. Gareth Southgate has taken us to three semi-finals and two finals and there is no doubt he is the best manager England have had since Sorel Framsey. And Sorel have only won that World Cup for us in 1966. I watched it. I'm old enough to know that because of the fact that the AR didn't need this back then. If it did, we wouldn't have won it. It would have gone to penalties because neither of the two goals in extra time would have counted. Now, I must take issue also with the young lady on your panel there. We said that Karl Walker was the best defender last night. He most certainly was not. Jordan Pickford and Luke Shaw were our best defenders last night. Both their goals came from the right flank where Karl Walker should have been. Well, get to him. He was half a yard. Stephen, he was half a yard. Are you blaming Karl Walker for the goals last night? I think Karl has switched off. I think he'll be disappointed when he looks back at it. I think he will be bitterly disappointed with it. I think the first goal is a difficult one because what you're trying to do is you're trying to help out your centre-back partner by going in tight. Because Karl knows he's got that pace. He's thinking the danger isn't the far player. The pass was a little bit fortunate that it actually got out to Williams in the first place. So Karl's position wasn't the worst. It was just a little bit fortunate the way it felt him, but he'll be disappointed with the second one. I do feel like he'll be disappointed. However, the ball ends phenomenal. It is absolutely outrageous. The big thing for me, Andrew, I was going to ask you this question. I was just going to say, when I listened to Andrew talk then, it's almost like, I remember speaking to Glenn Murray about this, and he said, "Gary, it's been brilliant. He's given me times where I've had moments with my kids watching the game and the nation where it's never been better. What are we after as a nation? What more do we want?" And it sounds like Andrew's exactly in that camp. Whereas I just think when we get to that point, you've got to have that little bit extra to be able to push you the other way to go and win that game and change it. They're the finest of margins. Savile finest out this year in football with management. You've got to have that fine margin of being able to make a decision within a game to be able to change it. I can't wait. Ian, how are you? Hi, Robert. Hi, guys. I guess I'm well. Thank you. Good. Come on then. Okay. I've been listening to the debate driving. Actually, I've pulled off safely. Mike's instructed me to do so, but lots of really good points. I was actually with you guys in Qatar, in Doha, in the Red Lion, been interviewed a couple of days before they caught the final against France, which sadly I was at. I've heard a lot of stuff today. A lot of it I've agreed with. I've agreed a lot with what Stephen has said. And I think the one thing I would say is Southgate has to go. He should have gone after Qatar. And in my view, he has been the most successful manager since Al-Franzy, but he's been rewarded with failure. You know, we went backwards. I was in Moscow against Croatia. We got to the semis admittedly, and rightly maybe he was kept on. He got us to the Euro final against Italy, but we went backwards in Qatar. And arguably, I believe we could have won the World Cup in Qatar. And I just think we have to have a reset. We need an attacking minded manager. Who then? Who Ian? Well, you're going to laugh, Robbie, when I say this, and it'll probably give you an inclination as to which team I have a season ticket for, but I bring in Marcelo Biosa. Oh, come on. Robbie's got his head in his hands currently for anyone you're not watching. Come on, listen. Well, listen, look what he's done with Uruguay. Yeah, lost the semi-final. Yeah, but he looked what he's done there. He's attracted, talented football. They didn't win it. He lost one, he didn't win it. Yeah, Robbie, he lost. And did Lee's get relegated? No, we didn't get relegated. We lost in the final, but anyway, he got us relegated. Yeah, perhaps he did. But you've got to bring in somebody with an attacking flare. Southgate's too negative. And with the crop of players we have, we should be doing Lee's is a style of football. Listen, they were in a tap-minded side under Biosa. They were become very enjoyable to watch. So the style of football, but that was hard work on the training ground. That was a day-to-day basis. And for that first season, Lee's, I used to love watching him. Yeah, I really did. And Ian, you're not the first person to say Biosa. The caller last night, who said Biosa. But really, do you think Marcelo Biosa for England? Listen, I might be throwing his name in Robbie for a bit of trouble. Well, some of you did last night. Some of you, Ian, you're the second person on 6 or 6 to say that. The other couple of points I would like to make, and Stephen made it a short while ago, I think Gareth has had his long-term favorites. I think Harry Kane over the tournament has been pretty woeful, quite frankly. He was awful last night. He was really awful. I mean, he was semi-pro standard last night. No, come on. Who else was awful last night, Ian? Just Kane? No, I don't think he was just kind of, I think. So why just Kane then? Because he doesn't, and I agree with another caller, we should have played Tony. I mean, Southgate, by his own admission, said that he wasn't fit. He perhaps ought to have played. So in the semi-final, in the semi-final against the Netherlands, you would have started Tony. Kane scored from the penalty spot and Watkins scored the winner, but you would have started Tony in the final. I would have, after the first three groups, Robbie, I'd have kept Kane on the bench. Oh, Ian, thank you so much. You know what? On the Biosa front, it would be fun. It would be fun, but what is the priority? Because I know that we talk a lot about the style of football that manages play, but ultimately, football is a results game. And if England had won last night, I feel like the conversations would have been very, very different. So do England fans want a Biosa where it would be fun, Stephen? We'd enjoy it. The press conferences, the football, or is it the results that matter? Well, I think the big thing would be else for us is, out of possession, you play in Man for Man, and at international level, the players are too clever for that. And I think they get found out quite quick. I think people found leads out quite quick after a while. I think the interesting thing is, and this is quite close to home, is that, obviously, Jurgen Klopp got Liverpool to a lot of finals and didn't win them. But then he had a couple of victories, but the style of football was enough for the Liverpool fans to enjoy a journey. And there was an element where they were like, we're still reaching finals, and it's great to watch, it's great occasion. But because England aren't playing attractive football, we're getting to finals, the two aren't matching up. And I think that's the balance that you're trying to get. Now, what would your feeling be, or what would an England fans feel and be this morning? If England had played brilliant football last night and got beat, would it have been, oh, we should have been a little bit more cautious and pragmatic in the way that we approached the game? Or would they have gone, tell you what, though, didn't half give it a go? And during that run to get to the final, we'd be outstanding. But then at the final hurdle, we fell short, but still played great football and just ran out of gas. What would the feeling be for England fans? I bet there'd still be someone that phoned up. You said we should have been pragmatic, but it's a great question. I'd love to know. Oh, wait, oh, wait, five, nine, oh, nine, six, nine, three. Daniel, good morning. Hello, good morning. Hi, thanks for having me on the show. Our pleasure. Hi, I just wanted to bring in a few points, a bit of positivity around it really. Obviously, I think, you know, as tournament football, you cannot play fantastic football all the way through. I mean, I know Spain did this year, and that's perhaps a bit of a one-off, but we should be grateful for where we got through. The consistency of the past years has been fantastic. I think that where we suffered, in particular, was our lack of tempo for at the tournament, and the speed of which we could create those transitions, and we sort of managed to scuffle our way through against sides that kind of sat in, and we found a way to get through, which you have to. But when we've come up against the sides that press like animals, and with such a high intensity, and we couldn't increase the speed of our play, I think that was the big problem for at the tournament, is that we were very lethargic on the off, and the speed of our passing was the thing that perhaps drained England fans, I think. When you're watching the team slowly moving the ball, I think, you know, we've had a few callers talking about the, you know, exciting football. I think that comes from tempo. I think that comes from moving the ball quickly, and I think that's where we really, really suffered in the finals. We weren't able to break the same press by moving the ball as fast as tempo, so that's the only trend I could see that really carried through the tournament. Daniel, can I just say then, so tempo and passing comes from ideas, so knowing where your next pass is, what the idea is in your head, and the hardest thing for us to go away from is Guardiola. He's the best manager we've seen in world football, and when you listen to ex-players, or players who've played under him, is that he teaches them a different game, and he teaches them things that they've never understood on a football pitch, but when you listen to him talk, he says to, he says in his interviews as well, he says, "I've got to give my players every scenario and every possibility that they can come across on a football pitch and problem solve." Now, watch their players week and week out when they play for City, and they problem solve better than anyone, but so does the manager, and he does it in an instant, and I remember listening to the game against Liverpool and Man City, and Klopp said, in the first half, he said, he calls me so many problems, and I had to change it, and then you listen to Guardiola, and he does a press conference as well, and he says, "Clop changed things midway through the first half, so I had to adapt and change things straight away." That's the peak, that's the elite, perhaps, but Pep can buy those players to fit in what he got, and technically the better players, so when you've got Kevin De Bruyne, a banana, also over Rodgy, has your midfield rate. England haven't got that, but they haven't got those players. They haven't got, we've taught them, they haven't got a six, who can do that. Coby Mayan, who might be, but Declan Rice isn't that player. Do you think Brellingham would be one City team in the morning? Yeah, but he wouldn't play as a six-player player. No, no, but I'm just talking all over the pitch. Pep can buy those players for his philosophy, and he can develop into those players. Gareth Southgate has players to choose from, so right now, England can't play like Man City. No, I'm not saying that they have to play that way, but what you've got to give them is you've got to give them ideas on the pitch, and an understanding, as Daniel's just said of, when the press is on, how do we bypass that press? How do we get round that press? Well, Spain did it last night. They haven't got up players from Manchester City. They haven't got Rodgy. Well, they haven't got the Bruyne. They've got Rodgy. Fabi Ruiz, technically very, very good. He's got Phil Fone, and you've got Melingham. He's playing higher, he's playing higher, so you need the sixes or the fourbacks, or the centre after getting out of the press, and that's your rotator's the box. But that's how you've got to adapt your squad, isn't it? And you've got to perhaps play it in there for able to do that. Well, it's not working. Look, they get to a final. Yeah, but they didn't play well all the way through it, and didn't play in a way. You have. You look at it and go, "Got, England, no house." But if they don't want it, if they don't want it last night, are you having, as England fans, former England players, the debate, we won the tournament, but we didn't play well. Well, it's not, because everybody says about Portugal won it, and people don't remember it, but they do, because everybody went on about it, that Portugal won the tournament without playing well. So last night, Gadda Southgate wins it. Are you, is it all England fans on yourself, taking it on to say, "Do you know what? We need to do this." No, because it's two tournaments, it's two finals, and then you've got three, what, is it three semi-finals, two semi-finals? So now you've got... Please move the bar. Just move the bar. One of games, though, as well, don't you? You have to analyse it, the one-off game. Like, that's what, it's the same when you're winning the Champions League. You find a way to get through to that final, and then you analyse the final as the one-off game, and last night, they couldn't break through the line, and I totally agree with what Southgate said at the start. Everybody kind of ridiculed him about, you know, the Calvin Phillips comment, but what he was trying to say is, they don't have that person that can pivot and find a frugal out and play forward. Well, everyone said they knew good, can't react to that. Everyone was watching the frugal, and he made it very good, and he can move the ball sideways, but he cannot turn and find a cutting pass through, like Tony Cruz can in the same position. Yeah, but Germany went out. Where we came, it came unstuck, in my opinion, is moving it through the line faster. But yeah, other than that, you know, fantastic to get to another final, and we've done very well. Daniel, thank you so much for the call. Tim, how are you? I'm well, thanks. Robbie, how are you, Sal? Yeah, we're all well. Thank you, Tim. Come on then. I am listening to people making excuses for Southgate. I'm not just saying it after last night, I've said it is not the right man for the job. Never want anything, I don't believe as a player, never want anything as a manager. I've said it for years, in more or since he's had the job. Yes, we've improved, but he hasn't got a winning mentality. He's too cautious, too defensive, getting to finals. If he's a such a technical genius, like some people are trying to make out, why are we the only country in the world, not just Europe, playing that style of football? So, Tim, who would you want then, Tim? Who would you want as manager? Sorry. Who would you want as manager then? Well, do I want to answer? That's a million dollars. No, go on, who do you want, Tim? Go on, you see, obviously, you must have a, you must have a team. For somebody mentioned, the elves are earlier on, I mean, I'm not sure that that would be the right, but it's got to be somebody, and I can't think of a name in there, in all honesty, obviously, you've got me there on that, but somebody else got positive attitude, a winning mentality. Southgate hasn't got a winning mentality, and that comes through, you can see it with the players. He's got favourites that he will not touch in dropping. I mean, Kane, everybody in the country can see that, yeah, his old records and scored, God knows how many goals this season, but he's never in a million years either being fit or on his game for this tournament. And he kept starting him. What was the point? You know, he's taking 26 players to that tournament, a squad of 26. How many is he actually old? 15, 16. There's so many players that could have done a job that all had the no time on there, or just a couple of minutes here and there, until they go and walk, and I don't think he even got on. There's players, I mean, Luke Shaw, not his fault he was injured, they stole the group games. I don't really think he added anything that Trippier didn't, and I'm not a fan of Trippier's, but it's just because he's got favourites that he will not drop, not choose, not pick. He's so set in his ways. We are never going to win as a country. We are never going to win anything while he's still in charge, I'm afraid. It's got to be time for a change. Tim, thank you very much for that very, very straight call. Before we go to the news and sport, gents, Stephen, do you want to say anything shocking again to take our breath away before we go to the news? When you were talking before about a sentiment fielder who can start attacks and play out from the back and senses danger, Walton's that good player? Walton's capable. I was really disappointed we didn't see him, and people say, well, he hasn't got the stature of a rodry and things like that, but if you look at his stats when he was playing at Palace, him and Will Hughes had the most turnovers of possession and ball regains because they understood how to play that position as a duo, and I think with his quality on the ball, again being a left footer, I think he'd have bought you a little bit more balance within that, within the play. You would have given what minutes? At a given minute, and because... In which game and what stage of the tournament? At a given minute within the group stages, and I made sure he got minutes as well, but listen, it's great in hindsight, isn't it? Looking back, I think he'll get a lot of game time next year, or I'd like to think he will, because I think he's an outstanding player. No, Adam Walton should have played in the group stages, not shocking. I think a lot of people would have liked to have seen minutes there. This is the UK's biggest football debate. This is 606 on BBC 5 Live. We weren't able to play through their counter-press, and in the end that starts to tell, because you keep giving the ball away, it's coming back at you, and late in the game you can have those moments like we did, where in the end I think you get punished for not having enough position of the ball really. Welcome back to 6060808909693, not only of the four lines being busy, social media has a tune at. Yeah, loads of messages on social media, and loads come in via text as well. This one from Peter says, "Are our brilliant players really that great? Do they appear great because they play with great players from other countries in the Premier League?" Oh, Peter. We've also had one in from Lin from Leyland. She says, "Gary's Southgate to continue as England manager with his current squad. One does not change things when a manager has just got us to another final, especially now he has got them into such a collective, self-assured frame of mind regarding penalty shootouts, onwards and upwards towards the World Cup." Yeah, and we've got another one from Al from Oxford. England arrived at the tournament still searching for the correct combinations and systems. Who's fault is that? The managers. Oh, it's 2599693, let's bring in Kate. How are you, Kate? I'm good, thank you. Good, good. What do you make of it all, Kate? Well, basically, can you hear me properly? Yes, yes, we can, Kate. Okay, so basically what I think is that, you know, I'm a math football fan, you know, I'm 55, so I've seen a lot. In the last 10 years, I've never seen such a successful team and it's the team that is being built by Gareth Southgate. So everyone's phoning up and flagging off Gareth Southgate and individual players, but it doesn't matter how good you are. It's the team and the team needs to play well together and they have started to do that, they're proud to play for their country, their incredible role models, they're young and they've got a future and nobody has mentioned that. It's like Gareth Southgate has been through a lot, he has accused him out of emotional intelligence and his style of management and how he's built this culture for the players is what we need to be celebrating, not knocking people and knocking individuals, you know, knocking people doesn't build their confidence and he's taking it to the team all the time and I think he has changed football and the football culture in the UK and we should celebrate them and we should celebrate what they've achieved and there's a one penalty shootout in it that's a massive win. So the culture I think we just need to celebrate and stop going on so negatively, I mean, I don't know how many, I don't want to be sexist here, but I don't know how many women have phoned in today or tried to phone in, but women do have a lot of emotional intelligence so they don't get into this kind of critical and I think women are a lot better at appreciating that and Gareth has brought emotional intelligence to the English team and I think that's what we need to have more of because he's got to think about the bigger picture and the future and he has started to build a culture of the future for English football. I think you've absolutely spot on with the culture and I don't think there's anybody in this country that is questioning Gareth Southgate's ability to have built that culture in that team from where it was to where it is now and we've heard people say the fact that they want to play for England again, they're a unit, you know, they're enjoying it, nobody is questioning that but I still think on the flip side it's okay to recognise what he's done well but also to recognise what he hasn't done well and ultimately I stick by my feeling that England must win tournaments, that is the aim regardless, you know, he's done well on the culture but they didn't win the tournament. They've all won since 1966. Yeah. No, they did win the tournament but the thing is is that, you know, in terms of the media and the British public, you need to kind of get behind your team, it's a bit like, you know, it's like being married, you know, for better to work, it's not always going to be easy and you've got to be in it for the long day. I'm divorced Kate. So, shame. Yeah, we both enjoyed the good bits and then held on, so. Kate, thank you so much for the call there. Everybody, welcome. I'd love to speak to more women on this show. Really, really thank you call. Thank you, Kate. Oh, wait, wait, five, nine, oh, nine, six, nine, three. So, coming up at 11 on five live, we will have the wonderful Naga and Chetty. Good morning, Naga. Hello, Natalie. I'm loving 606. You know, I've never heard 606. Is that because we usually are usually in bed when we're on? It's Saturday, isn't it? And Sundays? Yeah. Well, they're my fun times and I'm not going to be listening to the radio. I'm going to be out. Thanks for the support, Naga. No, no, but I'm loving it. I'm loving it. You know, can I pick up on what Kate said? Have you read Kelly Moran's article in The Times today? No. Okay. So, the title of it is, at last, England players, you'd want your daughter to marry. Here's a paragraph. She says, "These days, if your daughter said I'm marrying one of the England team, you'd probably be delighted. This team of young, dedicated, talented men have made the whole country's heart swell. They all feel like the kind of local kids on your estate who make you feel hopeful about the future. I really like the sentiment of Kate at the last caller. I like Kelly Moran's sentiment and my programme is going to be filled with lots of news, obviously, but positivity. And I'm going to celebrate what we've done. I all get your points of views. I'm going to celebrate Rob McIntyre winning the Scottish Open. I'm going to celebrate Alfie Hewitt winning the singles, wheelchair singles to complete his career grand slam. I'm going to celebrate our brilliant sporting prowess and for reasons for us to be proud." Okay. Does that work? Kate, I think that sounds brilliant because for the next 20... Sorry, Nagar. That sounds brilliant. Because for the next 20 minutes, I don't think it's going to be like that on this show. I know. That's how I'm going to provide the contrast. So, you guys winch and I'm sick of all the winching by everyone, by the way. But you guys winch and enjoy and analyse. You do what you're brilliant at. And maybe I'll listen back when I'm trying to fall asleep at night, Alfie. Listen to me making it work. You can do that. I'm making it work. I'm making it work. Do that when Chris Sutton's on, you will fall asleep. And you're still on winning though, aren't you? Yeah, but I carry it. Enjoy, guys. Thanks. Thank you so much. I'm going to listen to that on my drive home and get some positivity back into all of our lives. Because, yes, 20 minutes left to get your call in. It's 0805909693. Ian, are you going to bring positivity into our lives or not? Well, yeah. I hope so. You probably understand my type of football, like what I say. I was born on Key. I love Keegan football in the 90s, and it's had a way as it's back in soundtrack. So, I'm a positive person. And I'm definitely want to believe that we've got the players 100% believe we've got the players. I look at the clubs that we've got. Man City player tagging football, Liverpool player tagging football, Newcastle player tagging press and football, Villa have come to the party. I also do that. All of our players come from those clubs. So when one up to the one up was saying, it'll take months and months. It'll take a year to adapt. I'm not a professional football, so I apologize. But what I will say is, how hard is it to say, large? You're doing this every week. Come to the England squad. We've brought all the best players from all the best positions. And we just wanted to play how he's playing the Premier League. I know international football is different. And I've watched England abroad. I was in Qatar. When we played Iraq, Iran, we were awful. We won five nil. I just think, play on the front floor, play it with positive, play it with strengths. We play two hold amid fielders. It's so clunky. They fall on top of each other. Yeah. We left three streams at home. We left green leisure to them. And he hasn't got a clue what to do with Trent. It's so mind-boggling. I think it's a really good point here. And I think this is often something that sort of people with outside of football, who are not in the professional game, don't understand the intricacies of tactics and what is being asked of them. So when you talk about Manchester City and Arsenal, now their tactics will be very similar because they come from the same cloth if you look at the way your tata plays. But then you talk about Newcastle in the way that they play. They won't play a possession-based style of football in every single game because they don't dominate every game. They're more of an counter-attacking 4-3-3. They'll try and press as high as they can. But it's not as easy as what Manchester City do. So there's different ideas within that. Yeah, no, I understand that. But that's a different style. So when you're trying to gel them all together, you're almost asking them to play four different styles within one. That's very difficult to do. And it sounds very easy. The general concept is all of those teams, when they want to play it their best, they want to be going forward. All of those teams, when they want to be playing at their absolute best, if it's on the counter, or if it's the full press, the half press, or they've got better. The whole concept is we played our best when we're pushing another team. But if you look at the game yesterday and the first five minutes, we set ourselves up for Spain. Yeah, but watch the first five minutes, Ben. Wow. I've just played in Spain's hands. And there was no comment back from that. But that's what I'm talking about, though, is that's what you've got to adapt to. And that's where a manager, a top-top manager, has got to be able to see that within a game straightaway and be able to adapt to that. Wait a minute. I don't think he does that. Go back to the early game. Go back to the early game. They've got two center halves, who are 35 each, who are prone to fouling people. They had no legs left. Half time, he stuck with two, all the midfielders. And he didn't run at them at Wembley. But this is my point, is that you need to be able to do that. You need to be able to change things. Thank you so much for the call, Ian. 15 minutes to get yours in. 085909693. Hey, Jack. Good morning. What would you like to say? Good morning. I'd like to say hi, Robbie. You're going to empathize with everything I say. So, listening carefully. As a Birmingham City fan, I'm used to failure and disappointment. But I also am optimistic. For me, Southgate has got us to a final. And it's got us to semi-finals and finals. That is success. If we would have sacked every manager that didn't win a final, we would be sacking 99% of managers. Now, success is getting people to the ultimate, either winning or coming second or third, and then being bold and brave in those moments. So, now I'm going to argue against myself. I think Southgate could have been bold and brave. He could have wrested Kane, showed compassion and said, "You've lost your legs, but I'm going to put you on for the last 15, 20 minutes if I need you." And he could have just come in being the impact sub and played somebody more positive, faster, quicker, upfront. Our back line was good enough for the tournament. Our goalkeeper saved four goals yesterday. Nobody's mentioned Bigford. If he hadn't been for him, we'd have lost four too, I think, if all of our goals hadn't gone in, and there's a going in. So, as a Birmingham City fan, I ask you to be patient, compassionate, caring, whilst requiring something bold and brave. If I was bold and brave, what would I do? Leave Southgate in until we got to the finals of the World Cup, and then I say, "Let me be bold, compassionate with you, step down, I'm going to bring in an impact manager." Wow, that is brave. Wow. So, we're rewarding by getting there, by sacking him. No, no, no. We've been compassionate with him, saying, "You're not a one-match winning mat manager. We want somebody to come in who can motivate and make." If England got to the World Cup finals, you're not talking about the World Cup finals, you're talking about the final. Finals, not finals. I think it's at the final. It gets us to the tournament, and then we bring somebody who can motivate that 5% extra. I've played a little bit of football and cricket, and I know managers who do get the best out of players get 5 to 10% extra. Look at Mourinho. When he's in his early days, he gets that 5 to 10% extra, and then when he loses the 5 to 10%, when he loses the dressing room, people start to lose games. It's all about the ability of a manager. But England, but England will get to the World Cup finals because they will qualify no matter who the manager is. Robbie, I love your optimism. That's why we had your Birmingham. Yeah, okay. Wow, Jack. That's brutal. He started off so nice, and then he just like hit us with that. Yeah, England will qualify. Yeah, they will. Yeah. Why not bring the manager in earlier? Well, again, I go back to the argument of the the Hungary game. I was all for change in Gareth Southgate. I just thought it just gets to a point where, again, the same voice and the same voices within the staff. But there was a point made before, if I get the call, his name, I think it was Ian was talking about does so much good and brings in so many good things, Gareth Southgate and the qualities. Oh, no, it was actually it was Kate and the qualities that you've got. But I think that you've got to have someone else with different qualities behind you. You're only as good as your staff. So let me ask you a question then. So just quickly before we move on. If you ask, each and every one of those England players with 26 in the squad, how many would you think would say to keep Southgate? I don't know because I don't know the training. I would say the majority would say keep South. As they're all in the squad. Fair point, fair point. But I think the most difficult thing for a manager is that ability to try and keep a squad because a lot of those players play for their clubs and when they're going away and not playing, that must be a most difficult thing for a manager to keep squads are so important to keep the ones happy who aren't playing because what you know as I do, when you're training and you know what team is going to be, you see the setup, you know, you get handed a bib, you're not playing. To keep those happy is vital for a manager. And it seems to have done that. If you've asked them up, majority of those England players now, okay, the ones who staff, of course, are going to say keep him. But the majority of that squad, I would say 90% would keep him. I was fascinated. When I went to Villa, I was playing with Steve said, well, and he'd just come from Chelsea and I said to him, I was fascinated with Marina. Yeah. And I said to him, what's his biggest quality, Marina? And he said, he knows how to keep the players not on the squad happy. And he said, that's his biggest skill set. That's going to be hard. That's going to be hard for me. Yeah. That's not top players. And then that's that's a hard skill to be. I know. Yeah. Love it. Not at all. But no, but it is good players in the squad. How do you how do you keep them all happy? Yeah. And that's a skill set within itself. But again, I go back to Garrett's got specialist skills that he's brilliant at. But my biggest thing with him is his biggest downfall or his is his ability not to be able to is his tactical downfall within his management skill set. So why not bring someone in who's got that skill set and add to your skill set? We're not talking about one final. That's four competitions is managed now. Four of them. How many more times are you going to say, go on, give them one more, give them one more, give them one more. Right. Next up, we've got Karen. Morning Karen. Now, you're a Scotland fan, Karen. So I feel like this call could go either way. And I know it's last year. I was supporting you guys, honestly. I really was watching and supporting. And I've watched all the games. And I just thought, okay, you've made it to the finals, but I don't. But I just felt that it's a bit like having been all the way to go. You've got came at a talisman. I didn't feel they were really playing as a team. I felt they were so defensive. They weren't creating any chances. And because they were so defensive, you were thinking all right, they're going to wait till extra time. I won't say the penalty word because that was brilliant, by the way. I just felt I feel really sorry for you guys. And because I just think anyone to put on a shirt and play for the country, they give everything, they give 100%. To get the criticism that I feel some of the players are getting and the manager. Yeah, I do think, tactically, he could have made some changes and been a more attacking. But I have to be honest, being were just really good throughout. I said at the beginning, that's being we're going to win. You know, I had to watch Scotland lose 5-1. And that was a phenomenal goal. It could have been a 10-1. And that was the first game. Heads in our hands. And I just felt, oh God, you know, we have expected that actually, you know, I just have hope in Scotland. They're playing for the main distance for the women because my niece plays for Scotland. And we are all good. Yes. Oh, lovely. So, um, Caroline, where? Your niece is Caroline, where? Yeah, she just got married recently. Congratulations to her. What a player. So, um, in Shiree, you know, the, the, the, that horrible injury that most footballers get, she had the operation. So, she's getting back. So, Karen, Caroline, we're done work experience on 6 or 6. I heard that. I heard that one of the, the, uh, guys, Nicole, that was saying that. Yes. I know. Karen, actually, was doing a good ear or something. Yeah. Karen, you can't tell from my accent, but I do like to just remind people that I am Scottish. I was born in Edinburgh. I went out to the Euros as a fan with my dad to the Switzerland game. Um, the women though, the women, um, they're doing well in the qualifiers for the next Euro, is the next Euro, so doing well at the top of the group. So, Scotland women have a chance. Hey, we've got the playoffs. We've had some absolute stonker defeat, so some really depressing ones. But, you know, we just have to heat your head up. I mean, you know, say we're rugby. We used to have some classic, really talisman players. And when they weren't playing it, it's like, oh my god, they're not playing. It's like, Kate, I just think they're being really horrible. And I just think, I don't know. And I think, you know, from the English fans, or some of them, we're slowing the bottles on, so I just thought that was absolutely disgusting. Karen, thank you for the call. I loved hearing that beautiful accent on the show today as well. Thank you so much to Karen. Scotland fans, as well as fans, everybody, welcome on the show. We're going to try and squeeze in two more calls before 11. Danny, you've got a cup of a penny, sorry, penny. You've got a couple of minutes. What would you like to say? Hi, guys. Um, as always, good show. Basically, just touching on England, something that, and Stephen has said not long ago. And a few other callers about the quality of players we have in the middle of the park and elude into the fact that Pep Guardiola can do that with his players on a man United season to get older, despite you, Robbie, in Denmark, and when we played Copenhagen, the hotel, I hope you will, mate. And, um, basically, you can't compare the two. We've got firstly different ideologies with the two managers. And secondly, we don't have the entire players. We could possibly be able to play the formation where Becca and Rice moves a bit further forward, far too deep in my opinion. And when you look at the main of our players, the majority of them, there was no one that stood up. There was no movement. There was no penetration. It was pedantic from the back. Um, transition, which is one of the modern big words everyone likes to use, was "slaying, come in." And I feel, you know, hearing people like Steven mention Kobe Manu, yeah, people did what we actually recall about the young lad because he was the best player in the squad without a doubt. He was sucked towards the end of most of the games. Throughout the game, he's the only one that looked to move, take the ball in the half turn, try and create that ball of the release. When there's no movement ahead of you because Harry Kane is so deep and there's nothing being offered from the two wingers, then there's nothing to give you something to aim at to go forward so you have to go back. Penny, what I was actually saying about Kobe Manu was, I thought he was outstanding in the tournament, but everyone's saying that we don't have the players to do it. And I'm thinking, well, we do, because we've got Kobe Manu who's going to be outstanding in years to come, but that was such a big ask for him last night. And it's the biggest game of his career. He might never play in a Euro fan or a World Cup fan again. That might be the best or the biggest game he'll ever play in his life. But what you've got to try and find is, again, and this is Gareth's job. He's got to find a balance within midfield to get that working. Penny, thank you so much for the last call out of this special edition 6 or 6. Ray, how are you, Ray? Yeah, I'm good. Thanks. You probably tell from my accent that I didn't hear one last night, if you're perfectly honest. But watching as a game of football, I think it's unfair to criticize our game. Everybody knows he's a false nine. If you play with a false nine, you've got to have a third man runner. It showed it in the open game exactly that he drops off. He plays a ball wide, it comes in and Bellingham finishes. Bellingham's player of the Euro in Spain because of his ability to get in the box. Last night, I didn't see one third man run. Ken got criticized on two occasions. When was when people saying he only had one touch in the box. But if you look at the time that, the first time that they opened Spain up is when Walker overlapped. If you look at Kane's movement, he pulls off his band as a far post. If it's stood up by Walker, he gets a run on his band. Perhaps he gets a chance. Walker's ball in. It's the first man goes out. Nobody criticizes the ball. All criticizes Kane for not getting on the end of it. The other one was when there was a ball knocked across the six. They highlighted on the TV, a box in the six yard, saying Kane was on the edge of the box. That's the space the third man should be running into. And that's where it got a south gate. To be perfectly honest, until somebody comes out with a dress room and says he didn't tell, you know, they told Bellingham not to make the third man run or players not to try and win the ball higher up the field. Until somebody comes out and says he actually said that. Oh, can you criticize? What are you saying? Once they cost the line, if they don't fulfill, if they don't fulfill what the manager is asking or can the manager do, you can say, OK, change players. But you've set up a system which essentially you've trusted in and got you that far. Why change it? Why change it? Right. So I really feel that it's unjustified. Except what happened? You got to the final. It was a great game football. I decide could have won it. Spain was a better side. But England showed a bit of character in the last 20 minutes. Just accepted for what it is. Right. Thank you so much for the call. You've had the final word of the Euro 6 or 6. Thank you both. Did you enjoy that? Really enjoyed it. Good. Thank you so much. Well, Schman and Scottish women sticking up for England. Thank you for all your calls during the Euros. Thank you to Natalie and Stephen. And thank you for listening. Chris Sutton and I were back with 6 or 6 in August for the new season. Next up on Five Live, it's Nagaman Cetty. 6 or 6 is a shooting shot production for BBC Radio Five Live. Goodbye. Goodbye, Stephen. Goodbye, Natalie. Goodbye. There are a few sibling rivalries that have gripped us quite like that of Liam and Noel Gallagher. He had a role with me to be on a fight and that was it. And then a trash to play, yeah. The rise and fall of Oasis, a band committed to the rock and roll dream. I mean, we're not an angel, but we're not supposed to be a maker. Join me, Steve LeMac. And me, Joe Wiley, as we not only celebrate the music that Oasis made, but also delve into the complex and unruly rivalry. You're only so many by olive branches. You can give someone, you know, I mean, put us by a band with your brother. That would become the Achilles heel in the end. The rise and fall of Oasis. Listen now on BBC Sounds. [BLANK_AUDIO]