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Euro 606: England's Long Wait Goes On
[MUSIC] >> BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. >> Are you ready to have yourself in the UK's biggest football debate? Your teams, your views, get ready. This is 606 with Chris Sutton and Robbie Savage. >> On Five Life. [MUSIC] >> Welcome to 606. The number to call is 0-8-25-909693. As for the second time in a row, a European Championship final ends in heartbreak for England. >> And on the ball, he's in. Cook around with the pass. And on your ball, on the edge of the six yard area. Fights away, pass, big foot, and Spain are back in front. There is no more time. Spain have won it. England are beaten. >> Gareth Southgate stands with his hands on his hips, not to be again. >> This is BBC Radio 5 Life. Call free, 0-8-0-8-5-909693. Text 85058. Text will be charged at your standard message rates. Plus, see our privacy notice, bbc.co.uk/5life. >> Christopher Sutton is still in the stadium in Berlin. >> Southgate's main Christopher just beaten by the better team, weren't they? >> Yeah, I think so. Rob, disappointing night for England, but the best team in the tournament won. I mean, you know, the wide players, you Marlon Williams, having a big say in their first goal. Big foot is nicknamed, Yarsabelle. Getting the second goal for Spain, but I think England came up short. The better team did win, it's what happens next, Rob. What's going to happen to the England manager, Gareth Southgate? Are there fans out there who want him to stay on? Are there fans out there who want him to go? But tonight England didn't quite perform. Who's that on? >> There's a missed opportunity as well, because you're thinking the top of no-gabby. Pedry got injured early. Rodry, come off at half-time. It's another missed opportunity. Let's be realistic about it. >> Yeah, we can say all that, but I mean, you know, Pedry going, he was injured. >> I think second game in, but Danny Olmo coming in has actually been an upgrade. So the Spanish had a strong bench. They were by far and away the best team in the tournament and take nothing away from then. You get to a final. It was a missed opportunity, not quite brave enough, England on the night, but Spain have smothered every team, Rob. They have been so, so good. >> You said it in yes, you said it from when you first seen him, Chris, you said Spain, the best team in the time by far? >> Yep, I did. And if you read my BBC predictions, I predicted Spain to win two while I don't feel good about that, but based on what I've seen, the challenge for England is how do we get to that level, to the Spanish level, a team who have a wonderful, balanced England lopsided throughout the tournament, but England have quality players. I suppose the question is, is Gareth getting enough out of them? >> Oh, wait, wait, five, nine, nine, six, nine, three is the number to call, Jaz, you've done that. How are you feeling, Jaz? >> Oh, my, I'm absolutely gutted, pal, absolutely, you know, I just can't, I can't explain it. I mean, Southgate, what is he playing at, mate, seriously? He should have gone years ago, mate, why does he not take Madison? Madison would have changed the depth of the play, why is he playing Royce and Bellingham together, mate? It does not make any sense. I mean, don't get me wrong, Royce is at an absolute great game today, great game, but he's not playing the way that the team should be playing. What's your guys' opinion on this, because Madison should have gone, mate, Madison would have changed the way we would have performed, mate, seriously. >> I think James Madison actually admitted that his form wasn't good enough to warrant getting picked in Gareth squad. >> I'm a big fan of James Madison, but I don't think you can level that necessarily. Gareth Madison, I think he had an injury off memory and never quite hit the levels when he came back. So that's it, but, I mean, so is this on Gareth Southgate then, is this all on him or is it absolutely, mate, that you need to go, mate, after this year's ago, when we lost against Italy, you need to go, mate. It does not make, it does not create the right performances for players, mate. It's too soft, mate, you know, if we add talent, if we add talent to them, mate. >> But you mean he's too soft? >> He's not unplugged the players, mate, obviously, we've got big parrots in there, mate. >> You've got to back to back, Euro's finals. So how does that make Gareth soft? How does that make him not on the same wavelength as the players? >> Yeah, but, mate, you say that, you know, we've done back to back finals, but we've had the best squad in Europe, mate, best squad. Just look how he's playing, mate, it's an absolute joke, mate, seriously, he's playing defensive football, then, on the 70th minute, he tries to play it fast. >> Just got to start with Ed Jazz, just got to start with Ed Jazz, because we're going to hear from the England captain, Harry Kane, who's with John Murray. >> Yeah, you see the England captain, Harry, I can tell you've got disappointment written all over your face. >> Yeah, it's another extremely tough moment for the team, for me personally, for the country. You know, yeah, tough game, we've done really well to get back into the game, go and one deal down again, and yeah, whenever you can see that later on, it's always a sucker punch, but overall it's just a big disappointment that we couldn't get over the line. >> What do you think that you just lacked tonight? >> Yeah, I think credit to Spain, they played really well with the ball, we didn't get the pressure that we wanted to, and then I think with the ball, we wasn't as composed as we've been in other games, and we got punished for it, but we've done really well to get back into the game, a great finish by Cole, but then we didn't take that momentum for the last 15 minutes or so, and we got punished for it, but yeah, we couldn't quite find our rhythm in the game today, and yeah, in these big moments, you get punished. >> I just saw Gareth Southgate come down and go into the dressing room with you 10 minutes or so ago, I presume he addressed everyone, was that quite emotional? >> Yeah, I mean, he said that he's proud of us, you know, and it's been a really tough journey, a really tough tournament, physically, mentally, you know, so much goes into these tournaments and, you know, you get so close to the highest of highs, you know, the pinnacle of all of our careers, and it's taken away like that, and now you're at, you know, everyone's at the lowest of lows, so it's a really hard one, you know, it's back-to-back finals has happened and we haven't found a way to win that trophy and it's kind of hurt for a long time. >> And I'll just ask, finally, in terms of your own play, your own fitness, did that back injury that you had affect how we saw you here? >> No, it's not time to talk about personal, personal themes, you know, the tournament plays out in different situations, you know, you deal with a lot as a player throughout these tournaments, everyone's dealing with issues and you're at your maximum physical capabilities and, yeah, it was just the way the game panned out today and the way that the tournament's gotten, you know, of course, from a personal point of view, I'd love to play better tonight, and it would have been a different outcome, but unfortunately it wasn't. >> Thanks, Harry. >> Commiserations, okay. Thank you. >> John. >> And thank you, Jaz, let's go to Dave, how are you, Dave? >> I'm not good, Robbie, I love England, but I've been in England in support of a long long time since about 1970, but once we got to this final, I knew we would be humiliated and humiliated. >> No, it wasn't humiliating. Let's get it right, England lost, it wasn't humiliation. >> No, I get it right, Chris. >> No, you're not. Humiliation is four-nil, five-nil, there was two-nil, there was two-nil, I had a head lid off the line. >> Chris, let me just throw something to you. I have a great amount of respect for your views in football, but what you say about the corner thing, I profoundly disagree with you, so please let me be up my side, I'm not against you, I just disagree with you on this point. We would have played tonight, I'll play an outboard, and the only time that we put the juices up to them was when Harry came, came off, and we had two younger players that had direct attitude against that flat defence, have they been on in the first place? We would have been in a better situation because sentiment does not do it, having Harry came on the pitch. Great player, or it's obvious he wasn't doing it at the moment. In regards to Southgate, in regards to Southgate, overall, he has studied this game in regards to England's team, there is no arguments on that. But what he's doing, he's had a Ferrari, but he's not pressing the accelerator, he's pressing the brake and pulling the handbrake on, he's not going to get anywhere playing like that. Nowhere, and it's proved, we have got an embarrassing record of being in two European finals, and we're losing the two, we're in the first one, we were one, they look, so you know, it's not an embarrassing record, it's progress for England to get to back to back your Rose finals. So you go back however many years, when was the last time England did that, when was the last time they got to your Rose finals? Sometimes you don't listen to what people say. Just going to stop you there Dave, because you can hear from the England manager now, Gareth Southgate, who's live with John Murray. Yes Gareth Southgate's just walked straight over to us out of the dressing room, so Gareth, first of all, what was the mood in there, I think I can probably imagine. Yeah, you can imagine the scene, nothing being said really. I've said to the players how proud I am of what they've done across the tournament. We fell a little bit short tonight, we, in the end, we didn't keep the ball well enough. We actually minimised, I think, I thought they are attacking us, particularly in the first half, but we weren't able to play through their counter press, and in the end that starts to tell, because you keep giving the ball away, it's coming back at you and late in the game you can have those moments like we did where, in the end, I think you get punished for not having enough position at the ball really. You came up against clearly what has been the best team of the tournament, yeah. Yeah, no, without doubt, congratulations to Spain, they deserved the win, not only tonight but across the whole tournament. Do you feel that there's anything else that you could have done? You made relatively early changes this evening, you decided to take Harry Kane off? Yeah, I mean, Harry's led the team brilliantly, but we've had a few that are a little bit short of their physical peak, I think, and we've been battling with that all tournament, really. Is that the case with Harry and Jude Bellingham, who contributed five goals to the cause, but were they up their absolute best? Well, I think you could see the toll of the extra times, the intensity of a tournament, we know that that's what happens and we've used the bench well, I think. We've had great contributions from the squad, but I think you could see in a few of the games the legs were starting to go with several of the players, really, so, yeah, and ultimately, if you're having less of the ball than the opponent, which was the case tonight, then that's going to tell. And what does happen next? What, you've got this contract until December? You tell me? Yeah, well, look, now's not the time for me to discuss that, really, I understand the question, of course, but I think I need to speak to the right people and we'll go from there, it's been an amazing experience to lead the team to another final. But obviously, at the moment, to come short as we have is very painful. And does this issue, as you've said before, not outstaying your welcome? Is that part of it? There's a lot of things that are part of it, there's what's right for the team, there's what's right for me. Yeah, lots of things to consider. Thanks, Gareth. Appreciate it. And congratulations again. Thank you. That was Gareth Southgate speaking with John Murray. Thank you today, Chris. What did it make of? Yeah. What make of Dave, or what was it for you? Just quickly on what Dave said, you know, Dave may have had a point about Harry Kane and Gareth, in an earlier interview, spoke about Harry Kane's fitness, I don't quite get there, if he's not fit, don't play him. But where I take, where I take umbrage what Dave said is he used the words embarrassed and humiliated, England won, embarrassed and humiliated. You know, that's wrong. And under Gareth's reign, England have made great strides back-to-back Euro-finals. That's making great strides. The issue they had is Spain with our superior, and that's the level. And the challenges is how England are going to get to that next level, the Spanish level, can they do it under Gareth Southgate? But with no, what is it? He needs to make a quick decision. But I'm with you. I'm with you. But in that second half, no Rodgi, they got the equaliser. Once again, Gareth big good substitutions. You know, we've done it in the semi-fanner, he's done it again tonight. You know, but with no Rodgi, when they've equalised, they've never put the, you know, they've never put the foreign accelerator, they did go back again. Yep, you know, absolutely, it's a difference in class between Spain and all the other teams in this tournament. What surprised me a little bit? And, you know, mentioned Declan Rice at the end to Mark Chapman when we were, you know, mulling over what needs doing. When you watched the way that Rodgi and that was a position you played, Fabian Ruiz, really dictated the game from that number six position or, I mean, Ruiz drifts at times as well. But why, you know, England have been crying out for a player like that for a long, long time now. And that's the level. Why can't Declan Rice do that? I don't know. Alan, how are you? Yeah, I just want to read a quote to Chris Sutton. This is what Gareth Southgate said in 2009 when Steve Gibson sacked him. I have lots of games like that, since I've been a manager here, where you wonder about the consequences of defeat, but we were very positive in the way we approached everything. I think that's just about sums him up, doesn't it? We call him the nearly man, the lucky manager, because he's been very lucky. He didn't have to call it fine in the last year, because it was in the UK. He got a lucky draw in the World Cup, and he did a very, very lucky pass right through to the finals. Right. Well, hang on a minute. So, so, so, so, so, what is the altar? What was the alternative? I don't know. You're trying to interrupt me. No, I'm just going to pull you up, and we had the best players in a generation. I thought they had to qualify for the last year, they had to qualify for the last year. Alan. Yeah. They did have to qualify for the last year. I can't hear what you're saying. Sorry, I'll go to the window. They did. They did have to qualify for the last year. Yes, I know, but look at the draw they got, he's always been very lucky. This is this is embarrassing, right? So, so, so you're saying Gareth got the lucky draw? What did you want him to do in the group? Did you, did you want England to finish third? Would that have been preferable if English finished third or second and then went into a tougher part of the draw? Gareth finishes top of the group, and you're, you're criticising Gareth and his England team for finishing top of the group. That's absolutely ridiculous. That's not his fault. It doesn't mean anything when you come top of the group with easy teams and then you go and lose to Iceland. We lost to Iceland before we started the Euros, it was a friendly, it was embarrassing. It was a dead rubber, didn't, didn't matter, the, the scored was already picked. Oh, well, that's what you say, but I don't think that's the way the England fans see it. OK, Alan, thank you for the call. I think people have been slightly harsh on Gareth Southgate tonight, Chris and Harry Kane. Listen, you know, he's got to a final to top the group. It doesn't matter what side of the draw they were on, it's a demand, you know, a better team early. They might have gone out. You know, Harry Kane seems to be getting hammered, but everybody, everybody's thought about Harry Kane have to start the final. OK, he has not played well, but not a due belling him tonight, not a, not a full forward yet. You know, everybody's thought about Harry Kane. I think it's a little unfair, Alan, how are you? Hello. I was a bit, being a bit critical, then, with what you were saying then, and it's, it's, it's frustrating is what it is after tonight, and I just feel like at points in that game, England needed to grab it by the scuffle neck after you score, we're still in the game. It's, it's one one, but obviously as the game flows, you've got that three or four minute period where you're on top, but then we sit back and we go back into the same, the same formation, same situation where we just sit back and we just don't go for it. I just don't, I don't understand it. I don't get it. And this is why, for me, Southgate has got to go. He has got to go. He can't stay in this position. I understand Southgate has got us to two finals in the last, well, three years yet. I get that. He's done well. He has done well. Yeah. I understand that. But he, he cannot get a team of this quality to play as, man for man, England, the England team is better than that Spain team. Is it so much better than that Spain team? Is it really? Of course it is. You take mother for man, England are a better team than that Spain team. Well, that's, that's, that's absolute nonsense based on this tournament. So, that's a tournament, but, okay, you're going on. How many, how many, how many champions leagues and trophies does Danny Carverhill won? What about Rodary? Would you, would you, would you take Declan Rice over Rodary Fabian Ruiz? Would you, would you, you know, where, where are you on that? Would you take any, any, would you take Kobe Mayne who over Fabian Ruiz? Well, you wouldn't based on this tournament. You take it in. Nico, Nico Williams. So, are you taking me in your mouth or the, the kale sucker? You know, the kale sucker starts every game. I mean, based on, based on this tournament, I mean, it's not my, your, your mouth has been sensational. We can't be. They're so arrogant to come on and, you know, our players are much better than, than any other nation. Well, no, they're not. They're not. They're, you know, and they've, you know, proven tonight, the Spanish players run another level. That's collectively as a team, as a team, Spain are a better team than we are, but individual players, England have got the better players, but we didn't show it as a team because we are not, we don't, in the moments where we can be a bit more aggressive. I mean, in that first half, we showed no intent of going for the win. What, what intended England to win that first half? The, the, the intently nom. The intent was to stifle Spain and, you know, it got away with that, but the one thing which confusing about what, what, what Alice said, as he said, Garra Southgate, his words, had done well, but we need to sack him. So which is it? If you do well, is that what you get? It sounds like Mackelsfield. Let's go to Dave. How are you, Dave? Hi. I'm all right man. How are you? Good. Thanks, Dave. Are you, are you going to be a good one? You're going to be a good one. Yeah, because this is Garra Southgate, and I'm with Chris as well, Dave. You know, you look at the Spanish players, player for player, they've got better players is that there's a, because we watched the Premier League because, you know, everybody says the best, it's the best league in the world, there is a thing to say, we've got England. They've got the best players. Well, if you look at it, Spain's back four as, as is a better back four than England's as well. The creativity they've shown this time, they've got better players creativity. Yeah, and I totally agree with you. I think that, I mean, everyone's, I've just sat back listening to you guys after the match and all I can hear is negativity and I don't understand it. Everyone's calling for, you know, in to be sacked and always should resign. I want him to stay for the World Cup because who else are you going to get? I mean, you know, he knows the players, he looked after them through the under 18s, under 21s, he helped them through and he knew their potential and, you know, these are the people who are now actually playing really well in the last couple of years. And I think, well, who else are you going to get? Repation that knows the players and have done so well in the last, you know, eight years. You're not going to have anybody, you know, that well informed. I agree with that. So, you know, if people are going to come on and so, well, let's get Gareth out. You know, he's useless. Well, come on and tell us who you want to take his position. Thank you for the call, Dave. Robin, how are you? Hey, I'm OK. Hello. Come on then, Robin, yeah, tell us about Gareth Southgate and England. Oh, I just wanted to say thanks to Gareth. I think he's done a lot for England. He's done a lot for the under 21s from 2013-16. Robin, sorry to interrupt you. Robin, sorry to interrupt because Ollie Watkins is just wondering over to John Murray. Yes, Ollie Watkins is just here in front of us. Ollie, great, great disappointment. Just give us an overview on how you saw it. Yeah, obviously, disappointing is the word to sum it up. I really thought it was going to be our night. Yeah, when we brought it back to one, I thought we were going to go on and win that there. And it's a shame that we've just fallen short again. Obviously, back-to-back finals is some achievement, but no one wants to finish second place. And there's been so much hard work that's been put in by everyone, you know, back-room staff, and even all the players ourselves, we've put in so much hard work and to, you know, to come away, not winning, it definitely really hurts. What's the experience been like for you to be involved in this level for the first time? You know what? I've had an unbelievable seven weeks. Yeah, I couldn't speak any highly of the coaching staff, the back-room staff, all the players. Yeah, and I really thought it was going to be our night, you know, so much hard work, just gone in and, yeah, I'm absolutely gutted that, yeah, that we've fallen short. It's given you a real hunger for more of it, yeah. Yeah, definitely it will do. Right now, me and all the boys are hurting, not thinking of our next game or anything like that. It's important to, you know, use the time to spend of our families and then, yeah, obviously, three seasons later on down the line, but right now it's hurting this loss. And just a final one, as you well know, having been involved in this game for a long time, people will say this, that and the other about Gareth Southgate and what should happen next. Give us an idea of what he's like on the inside and what he does for you and everyone in the squad. He brings a real togetherness for a start, you know, this group of lads is a tight-knit group so close. Since he's come in, he's been the most successful England manager there is. I think he deserves a lot more praise than he gets back to back finals, you know, no one's done that on foreign soil, especially. So, you know, he deserves a lot of credit and, you know, I think his record speaks for himself. I would have loved for us to win tonight because he deserves it more than anyone, him and Steve Holland. So, yeah, I'm really good. Thanks, Ollie. Commiserations again. Robbie, Ollie, what kinds? Ollie, what kinds with John Murray, Chris, final word from you because you've got to leave the stadium? Yeah, being ushered out, just really disappointed for Gareth and the England team, this and the best team, one, clearly there need to be improvements. The biggest thing, Gareth has to make a decision on his future the sooner the better, but any other Monas who do phone in saying, well, we want Gareth out, well, give us a name. OK, Rob? That's all I want. Let me know. Thank you. Thank you. Cheers, Rob. Christopher. I will speak to you soon. Listen, but thanks for everything, mate. I really enjoyed your company. I know you've got a good relationship with Daniel now. To Ian Dennis and to John Murray, but listen, have a safe trip back, mate. What have we ever done not to get that recognition, Rob? Yeah, yeah. All right, mate, let's have a safe trip back, mate. Cheers. Thank you so much, O8285, 909-69, we keep your calls coming in, but I've got a great substitute. You know, in for you, Chris, I've got Clinton, Morrison, how are you, mate? I'm all right, mate. Good evening. What did you make of that, Clinton? No, it's obviously disappointing the results. There's going to be a lot of angry and frustrated fans, but I have to say, Rob, probably the best team in the tournament deserved it. And what I would say, though, and a lot of people, they could disagree or not disagree. At the start of the tournament, no one had Spain in the reckoning. No one had Spain in the reckoning that, after the first couple of games, they saw them. They're an outstanding team. They've got outstanding young players. And you look at it and you look at England's team and you say, on paper, they've got the same one. And the Spanish manager lets the players go and play and they play with freedom. And their style of play is fantastic. Oh, eight, eight, five, nine, nine, six, nine, three. Thank you to Robyn. Oh, Robyn's back. How are you, Robyn? I'm still here. I'm still here. Hang on. Sorry, Robyn. No worries. I would agree with both what Ollie and Clinton have said there. Gareth's brought a lot of good things to the England team, but also, he's failing, he's tactics, that the team, I don't think England play positive football. They don't play with freedom. We play very, very defensively around the back. There's no speed. When we do bring on players with pace, like Ollie Watkins and Palmer, it works for us. And yet, he persisted the same stat and lined up the whole tournament. And what I said earlier, I think Gareth's been a great servant of England and he's done great things for us. But I think he's shown up on the highest stages. So you think you'll go, Robyn, do you think you'll go? I don't know. Do you know what I heard him say the way he was talking earlier? I mean, obviously he's very excited. Do you want him to go? I think you will. Do you want him to go? I think, I think I do. No, who's next? Chris, who's next? What's Chris Cutton doing? Well, there you go, Robyn, I haven't got a series of alternative to go Southgate, Alabama. I haven't talked about it. OK, Robyn, thank you so much for the call. Joel, you're calling from Sydney? Hi. Hey, Robbie, how are you, mate? How are you, Joel? I've got Clinton here as well, Chris, has left. Yeah. Yeah. Got it that we've met, we've missed the Chris this morning, you know, we've been getting up at 2am, 5am, from watch these games, and you know what, like, I'm not going to, uh, I want to come on here and bash Southgate, but we, you know, it's been a challenging watch to get up, call yourself out of bed, and watch that type of football with the quality of players that we have on our display, and look, you know, we've got to, what, two major finals, the semi-final, but every time we've come up against top quality opposition, we've been found out, and I don't know, it's disappointing, it's disappointing. Joel, sorry, I'm not Chris Sutton, I'll apologize for that, but I'm not a bad substitute, trust me, Chris Sutton is, and Savard levels, but yeah, I'm just underneath them, so don't worry about that. But what I want to argue is, what would you have done different, what do you think Gareth could have done differently, um, today, because I just think the better team won and Spain had a better team, I think, I think that we, I think, I think I'm not sure, I'm not sure Gareth has the credentials of the capability to, you know, to get the best out of the players that we have. I think that's the, I think that's the, let's be, let's be honest about it. I think that we, we, we, we're not offensive enough in our style of play by full stop. He's a, he's a defensive manager. I think if you want to win tournaments, like we proven that we can get to the latter stages of tournaments, right, through being defensive, but, you know, we've got millions and millions of people that kind of another, and whoever's the world, like if we want to win tournaments, we have to be courageous and defensive, and he isn't that, and I think that every time we come up against a quality, like, probably leaders, even a lot of players, like, we haven't, we haven't been able to get out of the line. We have to be more courageous and offensive, and we, and we haven't been that. And, and I think that will continue, and look, I think, I think Gareth is playing or like is managing to the best of his ability, right, and I love the guy, and he's a really, really great guy, and I think he's done incredible jobs in the ability, but for us to get to that next stage, we have to make a change, and look, you know, it's been a great journey, like, we've been, you know, we've been up, you know, two in the morning, five in the morning watching these games in Australia, and, like, we've been given our best go, but, like, when it comes to that final stage, when we come up against Spain, Italy, Croatia, it's fallen every single time, and we will continue to do that, unless we do make a change. And Joel, yeah, Joel, thank you so much for the call, James, how are you? Yep, fine, thank you guys. Come on then, James. Yeah, so by quick point, it's probably a bit more about Harry Kane, although it's obviously Gareth Southgate's choice, I think he made a big mistake in making Harry Kane captain from the start. Oh, come on. Well, it's more just the pressure that that puts you under. When he doesn't, when he doesn't score, everybody starts talking about he's not scoring in the matches. He's not going to bet. He's England. He's got the most golfing in this tournament. I'm not saying you shouldn't play it. I'm just saying the question mark of him being captain, that double pressure, just kind of, I think, hung over him, and I do remember that being the case with Wayne Rooney. Well, James, you know what, James, Maratha, Maratha was the captain for Spain. He's not really a natural goalscore. Harry Kane scored more goals than him. Not pressure on him. Spain have actually won the Euro as well. I question the wisdom of making a striker a captain, because a striker has one role and that is to score goals, and as soon as they don't score goals, the press starts getting on them. And then, actually, I think Kane would have been used better as a substitute in this tournament, because he was captain. Come on. He couldn't. With all the goals, he scored, James. Really and truly, he would have Harry Kane sitting on the bench. Well, I think evidence would prove that he should have been on the bench for these last tournament. So, yes, I would say that. But, you know, I think... So, coming into the tournament, you would have won the Gareth Southgate to do a bigger announcement. Do you know what? I'm not going to have Harry Kane as my captain going into this tournament. Not at the beginning of the tournament, Rob. When he scored, when he scored 36 goals in the Bundesliga, all of 14 this year. What, Gareth? If you're England's record goalscore, but I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what, everybody, yeah, Harry Kane is not going to be the captain in this tournament. That's absolute nonsense. I think after two or three games, that was what you should have done. You can't do that after two or two games games. You can't do that during a tournament, no one. Well, how many goals did he score? Three. What was the evidence? Three. More than any... More than any England player. More than any... More than any England player. Yeah. Well, he scored a penalty and he scored a header, if I remember correctly. Still got scored. If he scored the penalty against France, you know, in the World Cup, he might have still been in it. I think... I'm not saying he's a bad player, and I think he's a great player, and I think he should have played his part. I just think it was a mistake to make him captain. Well, okay, James. And I do remember that being the case with Wayne Rooney as well. We were, you know, Wayne Rooney had to start because he was the captain. No, Wayne, James, Wayne Rooney had to start because he was England's best player by a country model. That's why Wayne Rooney had to start, and not nothing to do with being captain. And it's the same way, Harry Kane, you would never... They would never be having this conversation about Harry Kane. If he had not been... Listen, he hasn't been 100% fit. I totally get that with some of the corners, but you still got to be playing Harry Kane. He's 100% agree with you. Thank you so much for the cold, Dave. Let's go to Nat. How are you, Nat? Oh, er, er, er, disgruntled, disgruntled. Three points I'd like to make, if I may. The first is regarding Trippio. The second is regarding Friendlies, and the third one is Palmer to see. Back to see. So Friendies, my point about Friendies, I played against you, Robbie. I played in the Langshire League when I was at U-Mist, and we was playing against some top teams. We had a settled side of 11 players, and we won a couple of matches, right? It would be ever at youth, it would be Liverpool youth, I think we did United once. But the thing is, we were a team, right? If you look at Leicester, they won the Premiership, 11 of their players played more than 30 games in one season together, right? They won it as a team. We have no doubt got the best talented individuals. And Roy Chris sub must end, blah, blah, blah, whatever he is saying. If you look at the FIFA rankings, or fantasies, fans are more comfortable. If you add up the rankings for those England players, they'd be every other team individually. It's no question about it, right? But when we play Friendlies, why do we tinker and tader and put five subs on and five subs off? Those Friendlies, we should be playing our strongest team, get everyone to gel, and everyone talks about the Lampard, uh, um, um, um, uh, Joe, I'd sort of debate. The way to get those two players to play them in the same team was playing them in every single friendly. They work it out. They work it out. We should be using Friendlies to get our strongest team, not as a training exercise. I'm so angry because if we'd have gone in to the, we didn't know what's outside, we got into the final and he's still tinkering. He's taken, he's talked tripier, poor old tripier, he's got us into the final. What, what a legend. Playing out position. And they drop him. They drop him. Okay, sure might be a better player, but sure, as we played for two years, tripier was part of family. He's got us in that final. He drops him. He even makes him strip off to go on the bench to come on the pitch and then tell them to close back one. I guarantee next season, at Newcastle, tripier would be a broken man, right? And my third point is, I think Palmer needs to go back to city, right? The only reason he left city was because he wanted to play more games, so he confronted Pep. He dropped the ego. Anyway, I don't want to play anymore. I want to play more games. I want to play more games. And Pep's from right there at the door. Joe's Chelsea, player of the season. Price Freeman. He's a Manchester boy. He's going to go back to city. If he's, if he's pride related, but the Friendlies is my main point. Why do we use Friendlies as a training exercise for players that we know that good or no good? And then, and then don't know our full side. I'll pop a side. It's crazy. That's my point. Now, you may, I understand the fear of your points. I get that. But everyone wanted Lucha in the team for that natural whip down the left-hand side. I thought Lucha had done well in the first half against your mile. I thought it was really positive. The reason Trippier I didn't come on is because Spain went and scored. I think he was bringing Trippier on. Spain went and scored, actually changed that substitution and put on an attacking player. As for Friendlies, you need to give other people opportunities because if you get injuries to key players, how are those players that are going to fare if they've not been given any international football? So you can't just keep playing the same 11 all the time because other international players that come off the bench, they need an opportunity as well. Listen, I get your points. You make a few good ones, but yeah, I don't understand the Trippier and Shoreline. What about you? Well, I'm with you as well, Clinton, because we both played internationals, you for Republic of Miami, for Wales. If you were going to every friendly game throughout the summer in the season and you knew that he was going to play strong this team every time, players would just keep pulling out. Exactly. What am I going there? What's the point? Exactly. People say, "Well, you've got to earn your right, but if you're playing well for your side and you're smashing it, and you know that he's just going to play as strong as I am in that, how are you going to get in it?" Exactly. Agree me. Yeah. Oh, wait, wait, five, nine, nine, six, nine, three. Tom, how are you? Yeah, I'm good. Thanks, boys. How are you doing? Good. Good. Thanks. Yeah. It's a pretty tough evening, isn't it? It hurts, but I think my point is that we should be proud of our boys, and I don't want to go into specifics or players or tactics, because I don't think it's time for that, but if you compare off to the group stage, it was bad. The whole country was sad about it, but the joy that Southgate and the lads have given this country over the last few weeks has been incredible. If you compare off to the last 10 years of English football, two finals in a row, the World Cup Florence is, I think, it's just fab, and I think, I mean, whether Southgate's days or goes, I hope he makes the right choice for him. Whatever his choice, I think, he's been a great servant to English football, and there's so much for him to work on, but we were a great tournament side tag that we got into two finals. No matter what the tactics are, the way that they play, I think that we're a better team than we were years ago, and I think a better team tonight won, but my point's one of positivity, I think, the joy and the great stuff that is given the whole country, you see the scenes on social media, on Facebook, and all of that, and the amount of happiness that he's brought this country, I think, can't be forgotten, and I think it's to be praised for that. No, I agree with you, too. I like it, I think that's a calling that's really positive, I do agree, listen, his style of football might not be the best, but you're right, to get to two finals and a semi-final at the World Cup, it's a great achievement, listen, he wants to get over that, cross that line, but they just haven't done it, and I think Spain were the better team and Farley deserved it this evening, but would you like Gareth to stay on, Tom? Tom's gone, Tom's still there, Tom's still there. I'm still there. I'm not sure, I think we've got a great platform. I think we might want someone who can pay a more expansive, aggressive style of football, but whether he stays or goes, I'm happy, because I want it to be his choice, because I think he's given so much. OK, Tom, thank you so much for going on. Tom makes some good points, Clint, because of the joy, you know, I've watched it in, you know, at the football club, Michael Zoot tonight in the bar, and there were so many England shirts, so many kids, so many, you know, grandparents watching together, you know, when they scored the equaliser, the joy, the excitement, and that's lasted now, until the 86-minute, whenever Spain scored, they thought they could win it and the joy and the excitement. You've seen on social media, Clint, the, you know, all around the country celebrations and that disappeared the last four or five weeks, as given England fans so much to think about, so much excitement, so much joy, isn't it, and Gareth Southgate has created that? Totally agree with you, Sam, he has created that huge credit, he's been under huge pressure, Gareth Southgate, so manage the English, for me it's one of the hardest jobs, if not the hardest job out there, because it's so much scrutiny on him, and I think he's handled the pressure ever so well, listen, as I said, he'll be really disappointed, he didn't manage to get over that line, but I think the job he's done at England, if he does leave, he's been fantastic. Gary, how are you? Hello, Tom, how are you, guys? Good? And yeah, does take something special, I think Gareth Southgate did something special, so get the performances he did out of those great players that we've got, making folding and soccer look like honest plotters in the midfield, making Duke Bellingham play the way he did after he scored in the rest of the games, and to continue play, how he came in a system that he's totally unsuited for, where he's can't run, can't head the ball, can't chase him and down, but we're still playing a low block, and then getting the ball forward to him in desperation, yeah, takes something really special to do that, well, by the way, doing a great job, you know, the last three games we lost in the World Cup, the last two year olds, you know, we've got possession, we've got in all three games, 35%, can't win with 35% in finals like that, unless you've got to win, unless you've got to win. Unless you've got to win the league, unless you've got to win the league, unless you've got to win the league, unless you've got to win the league, unless you've got to win the league. You've got to win the league, unless you've got to win the league, unless you've got to win the league, unless you've got to win the league, unless you've got to win the league and you've got to win the league, because you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win it, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league, you've got to win the league Yeah, they wouldn't like, you know, like the euros 2031 final I think made their penalties They win it the game that everyone's thinking that something else just like you're such a fine margin the finals like it's it's unbelievable like Who else would they get in? That's what I always are like so they always ain't very better football Who else would they get in like for England like the house not house ops? You know they come in like who is the next best? I would come in like I throw a name, but I don't think you'd be out. I don't think you'd be able to get him But it's a good name. Yeah, you're gonna clop. Yeah, I can clops available Isn't he but I don't think you'd be out to get him I think he wants a bit of a break But that would be attacking football for sure if the Gareth does decide to leave But I like your call Max is positive because I think Gareth and listen I understand what people are saying the call is about the style of play but Gareth's not gonna change He's always been a defensive manager wherever he's been and it's that's the style of play But one thing he's done. He's got this team to two finals and a World Cup semi final for me That's a big achievement and all the other teams like you've got France Like you've heard all like Spain were amazing this year like my France won They were rubbish like in the ground every single game like it's actually football is always boring You just have to be like defensive and You're the wind you don't like don't know. It's just I feel like people expecting things just just aren't realistic For an attached report with me for merely Max. Yeah, Max. Thank you so much for the call Ben Hi, how you doing? Well, I've been a do you think south get or carry an old would you want something else in charge? This is not gonna be popular. I don't think but someone posed a question earlier on who's gonna be in charge Why haven't we looked at Marcelo the Elsa? I am a formerly a well currently found obviously the former manager for his honor a Yorkshire man I think he's fitting well straight into the into the group he plays Football that is joyous and just Ben Ben Ben watching England Ben. Is he he's I need to interrupt you here Ben. He'd be also is very similar to go Southgate. He's the defense of our minded manager I did watch you a lot and I did and you got relegated in this world one is yeah They did and you know what that's the difference between club football and international football It's only about right. We've lost touch with that. The only one club is gonna win it into these tournaments Having you to go I just lost a Colombian and I just want to That's the difference. I'm not here to win. I'm here to feel pride and enjoyment and entertainment from football We've lost sight of what football's about. It's not about - It's not exclusively about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - It's about winning. - All those players that win the accolades for their clubs, it's very unlikely you have to win anything for 60 years that any of them will win for their country. But what they can do is hold their heads up high and say, do you know what? We put smiles on people's faces. - We have the England players have the England players have. - Pardon? - No, they have the England players. - So I've just, I've just, I've watched every, I've watched every, what the heck you just said. - They can't play with in a defensive system. - But you just said, put smiles on people's faces. I've seen lots of smiles on loads of people's faces over this tournament. - I'm fine, that's absolutely fine. On some people, you're talking about a massive group of people, there'll be a lot of people and we've lost touch with it. International football should be about pride. It shouldn't, there's nothing on the line. - Ben, how old are you? - Whether it's in the quarters, but that means-- - Ben, how old are you? - I'm 36, so I'm-- - So how many times have you seen England get to a final then? How many times have you seen? - No, how many-- - Just answers, answer them twice, right? - And he's been the manager of that. - It doesn't matter to me. I don't, look, you mentioned earlier on about Maniai against a final. I've been just, I've been just, I've been just, I've been joined the football. They watch a lot of time. - They won't go. - They're not, it's not about winning. When, when have we lost touch with this guy? It's a game, it's about, it's about entertainment. It's about enjoyment. - No, it's about winning, Ben. It's about winning. - It's not about winning, it's about winning. - So let me ask you a question then, so let me ask you a question then, so let me ask you a question then. - Would you rather, would you rather, would you rather, would you rather-- - With that, I'd rather win, I'd rather win. - Yeah. - Yeah, as a player you would, or fans you don't, you want to see your team play well and give it everything out on the pitch. You know what? When we lost that semi-final to Brown, that was our best game in that tournament and I totally would come to the ball. - Right, we're there, so wait there, so wait there, they're there, Ben. I'd go back to the FA Cup final. Manchester United, 26% possession. Man City, you know, probably the better team. Do you think, Man United fans come away from that saying, "Oh, do you know what, we didn't play well, but we won." Or do you think, "Oh, George, I think we, "oh, you know, what, yeah, we played, "we played really well, we got four and a half hours, "we played really, really well, we were brilliant, "we played some dynamic and entertaining football, "but we got four and a half hours back now "to Manchester, from London, and we've lost." - Yeah, this is a problem for you as running this with Sony. It's very much from the player's perspective. I've been watching them almost 26 years that I've been on the planet, and it is dire and painful watching it, whereas there was something energetic and free and fun about watching those BLC years. - And yeah, leave your leaving by the end, but what was the first game that we all turned on a match the day? What was the first game we all wanted to watch? It was the lead matches, it was fun. - Ben, Ben, sorry to interrupt you, but if England went today, are we still having this same conversation? Are you saying you still want to be entertained, or are you out-pying? - Yeah, I'm totally entertained. - Would you still ring up and say, "No, sorry, would you still ring up?" And no, let me say one thing. Would you ring up and still say, "I'd rather be entertained than if England went." - Totally, yeah, I would... - Oh, wow. - I would always rather go for entertainment, because it's not cool. When you use lost touch, you're not touching what football is, it's not like for a day. It's the same as the 19 minutes or two hours. That's what the essence of the game is. Be able to sort of spoke about it at the time when you're out at the moment with Uruguay, and you've all completely lost your mind, thinking it's only about winning. We've got big issues in the world. We've got wars going on and stuff like that, and payments should be, and it probably should be a release, it should be entertaining, it should be fun, it should be enigmatic, and you should leave it as then to pride whether your team wins or loses, and that's what we've lost, because if we had lost in one of those stages earlier on, when we've been playing dialing, you know what would have happened. I mean, it's definitely a man who's come up with a 94-minute winner. You know what would have happened. We'd have all left that tournament, feeling absolutely good ring. And that wasn't the case. - Ben, thank you. Yeah, Ben. - I couldn't guarantee it. - There you go, Ben. Ben wants to be able to be the next England manager. Chris, you were at the game. - I was, yes, I was there. Mixed emotions, pretty conflicted, to be honest. 'Cause it wasn't a hugely different to any of our other performances. It's just at times we squeaked it, and at other times, like tonight, we didn't. And we did everything we do normally. We go down, then we go on the offensive, we make the changes, we put a better team on the pitch, we score, and then we go backwards again. And it was just, it was so predictable, and poor Harry, I love Harry. I'm a West fan fan, and what Gareth Southgate's going through is exactly what Moise went through. But he's done so much for you. He's brought everyone on, everything's fantastic. Be careful what you wish for. Life moves on, and people that were fantastic suddenly can become unfantastic. And unfortunately, that's just the way evolution works, just because you were fantastic. He's talking about the manager, Harry Kane. Both, I think both. Harry Kane's just got more 40 goals last season. I'd give that in where? 40 goals last season. In the 36, in the Bundesliga, and his England's highest goals go on this tournament. Well, Robbie, I went to both of the Biologics for the games. Yeah, I'm not saying he's played well. But I'm not saying he's played well. Well, what are you saying then? But you're saying, you're not saying Harry Kane's finished in English, are you? I think he might be Robbie. Oh, well, I think that's a big thing. Come on, Moise. Chris, you can't be saying that's a big statement. Come on, yes. He's gone far as he goes last year for one of the biggest clubs in the world. OK, so it's the highest pitch voice competition. Excellent. Don't do it. No, boy, boy, boy. That's just been really clear with you. I like that. That's a good read. He's carrying a back injury, right? He's had a back injury at the end of the fight, he's by Munich season. He was pretty a mobile. You couldn't have watched tonight. I watched in the stadium. I couldn't take my eye, dropped him. It didn't matter if the ball went two yards to the side of him. He couldn't get there. The ball rolled into his feet. His out-ball was off. Everything wasn't working tonight. Chris, I love to agree with you, mate. But I want to ask you a question. I have to agree with you. Your answer back to me and Robbie was brilliant, mate. So you've won. You've won the best of calling so far tonight on my evidence tonight. But what I want to ask you is, you said you was at the game. What was the atmosphere like with the England fans after the game in the stadium? It was, do you know what? It was, I think it was pretty respectful. A lot of, so, you know, in these stadiums, you've got the England and the Spanish end and then everything else is sort of mixed up and in between. The mixed up area was primarily England fans. The England then did empty out a bit, but everybody sort of clapped the Spanish team when they picked up. It wasn't, it really wasn't a very moody atmosphere. There wasn't trouble. There wasn't anything. It was, it was, it was a great, it was a good atmosphere. The game was there until the very end. You know, and sometimes you can go into a game and you can be two-nil down after 30 minutes and the game just peeped it out. This game didn't. The game was on, you know, even with the head tennis that they played in the 18-yard box. You know, we were still in it. It was a game of five margins, but, you know, unfortunately. I honestly think we shouldn't be talking about Southgate because Southgate, I think, is an incredible man-manager and any replacement that we're talking about. I mean, the last call of Biosa. Yeah, lovely, fantastic. Klopp, he doesn't want it. So, you're literally talking about, "Do you want Eddie Howe or do you want Graham Potter?" And we're going to be in exactly the same space with Southgate, where everybody's going to say, "We're just a failed middles for a manager, isn't he? "We'll see you have it done." Well, Eddie Howe will become the failed Newcastle manager and ballman manager and Potter will become, "Well, this is exactly what happened at Chelsea. "None of these guys have got a winning mentality." So unless you've got a game changer, you need to keep Southgate in place. It might be the team behind him that need a shuffle. Stevie Holland's cracking, absolutely brilliant. But perhaps a few people with some tactical nows or even a different approach, I'm not saying Stevie Holland hasn't got a tactical approach, but somebody whispering in his ear saying, "I think we need to do something here, boss." We kind of changed this earlier. Yeah, we can't leave it till the 70, 70, 50 minute. There's no way Harry Kane was not going to leave that England team out tonight. And he probably should have, right? When all of a sudden done, the team played to Harry, but it wasn't working and he could have come off at half time. He came off earlier than he'd come off in any other game, which you have to tip your hat to Gareth on that. So the change might not be the lead man. It might be the supporting cast. Chris, thank you. Listen, ladies and gentlemen, these points, Chris. Yeah, he did. In the high voice competition, he's got that. Yeah, he's good. Well done, Chris. Scott, how are you? Hi, good evening. How are you, both? Yeah, we're good. Thanks. I think for me, I think I'm going to probably upset a lot of people but agree with what you guys have said. I might believe it's a call if I don't want anything. But I think I'd give Gareth some of the tournament, at least. I think, for me, looking at tonight, we probably got our class by Spain. Let's be honest, it wasn't seven out of seven. So probably deserved winners. But I think what you look at, for me, 33 years old, 25, probably years of tournament football, he's got us close twice. He's got us close twice. We've been outclass tonight, but ultimately, the perception of English football, and I was getting this close. And some of the calls you've heard are, you know, tonight. I've listened to last two with Ben and Chris. But we're talking about how close we've got. We've lost two ones tonight against the best team in the tournament. And ultimately, for me personally, I think, you know, the 60s, about 60 million, sorry, in the managers who have played football manager who'd make a change at 55 minutes, had a 61. Actually, we've got really close. And ultimately, we've been beaten by the better side. I think perspective is a thing that's locked in football these days. I think I heard, I think it was Clinton touch on earlier about Leicester when they won the league. They probably weren't the best team on paper. They weren't the best team that won the league. But they got results. You know, you've all said it yourselves. It's about results at this time at the tournament. And we've got very close. We've been in it in 86 minutes. Probably the state's cost was. But I've got to think perspective is a lot to talk about in this. And we've lost a bit of that because everyone's probably getting a bit carried away. No respect. But, you know, Bellingham, great player. Third, and maybe not had the best time he could. Had a good half against Netherlands. And we've come close, but we've fallen just short for me personally. And I think Gareth deserves another opportunity personally. I think he will walk away. I've heard a few names chucked about. I would go and get caught, whatever he costs. But people weren't like a German mamajoon. I think he won't come. We're not that far off. And we're talking about a team that's reached two finals in the last four tournaments, got close in the seven in a quarter. We're not a million miles away. Absolutely not at all. Scott, thank you so much for the call. An update on call of Chris Clinton. He's getting up at 4am to get four trains back to London. Oh, that's a fair play. That's what football fans do to Clinton, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. We've had a call from Sydney tonight, Clinton. Let's go to Vancouver. How are you, Rob? Hi, guys. How's it going? Evening, Rob. All right, Rob. Go now. Yeah, I mean, I have to agree with Scott to your previous caller. I think perspective is needed now. But I wanted just to call in and remind people with short memories just how far we have come. As I was saying to your producer, I was born in 1962. My first football memory was watching England lose to West Germany in 1970. We didn't qualify for either 74 or 78 World Cups. We didn't qualify for 84 European Championships. We lost all three group games in '88. We were all talking about Dyer and pathetic, I think one of your callers says, in '92, that was probably the worst England team I've ever seen in my life. So think of-- if you put that into context in regards to Gauss reign, it's been tremendously successful. I mean, reaching finals and semi-finals on a regular basis in my lifetime is practically unheard of, other than '96 and '99. But to get to finals, I thought that would never happen in my lifetime. So we have to give credit where it's due. I mean, I think certainly in 2021, I think he was outcoached by the Italian, and you could make a case possibly tonight, too, although I think everyone agrees that on balance the better team won. But we have to be careful what we wish for, because there's no immediate successor that comes to mind that we all seem to be in agreement with that. But I think just the Gareth needs to be given the proper credit here. I think he's done an incredible job in getting us to a level that I didn't anticipate ever seeing again, to be quite honest. Thanks for the call. If you wear Gareth Southgate, listen, I think it should be his choice. And I agree with both Rob and Scott. What would you do if you were him? And you've seen the media, you know, I've seen people now writing about, you know, hindsight's wonderful. You know, Harry Kane shouldn't have started. People writing that now. But before the game, there's nowhere in the world. Larry Kane was going to get left out. And you're right. So it's all right, writing it now after the event when he's come after 60 minutes. You know, but I didn't see many people writing it. Leave Kane out, you know, before the final. If he was Southgate now with everything that's happened to him in this tournament, what would you do? See, it's a difficult one. I think he's built something really well there. And I do believe that, obviously, the next World Cup England, they have a good chance. They've got some fantastic young players. But when I hear a lot of things that are going on, Rob, I think this might be the hit on the end for Gareth Southgate. Not like the FA made that decision. I think he walks away himself, maybe tries to go into club football, has a bit of a break. And then goes into club football. It's up to him. I think, as I said, I think the job he's done there. He's done a fantastic job for England. But his time might be now to move on. And as I say, sometimes, Rob, you have to be careful what you wish for. Because he's took this group of players, and there's a great togetherness with the group of players. I know players have to come out and say that, but they look like no player ever says anything about it, even the squad players that are not playing. And you're sitting on that bench and you're frustrated. They're all together, they're all celebrating together. So, I think that's down to Gareth. So, I do think his time probably has come to an end, I think, but he'll call it himself, I think. April, how are you? Thank you. How are you? How are you? I'm good are you? Yeah, we're good. Thanks. What do you think? Do you think Gareth Southgate will stay? I'll just think he'll go. I think he will go, but I've got a proposal for another manager, Eddie Howe. OK. So, with Eddie. So, obviously, with Eddie, he's came into Newcastle, and he's developed a nurture for the few players. So, you've got people like Joel and who he paid 40 million for. And at the time, he was underperforming, and he's managed to implement, obviously, team cohesion with Joel and obviously his nurture. Then, into the Newcastle team. And then, you've got people like Gordon. Obviously, he was at Everton. Obviously, a good player. And then, when he's came into Newcastle, he's nurtured him again and provided him with a confidence that he needed. I think that with, obviously, the young team with England, I think Eddie Howe will be a good shout for that role. What do you think, Clint? He always gets mentioned. I was going to ask you that, Robbie. Eddie Howe always gets mentioned in this. He does definitely always get mentioned. It is a good shout. Don't get me wrong. I think you've got some fans. I think April will be upset in the Newcastle fans because I think the job he's done there has been fantastic. But, yeah, Eddie Howe would be a good shout. I actually think April makes a really good point. April, April, and April, you live in McOsfield. Yeah, it just goes with not far from the Saltman. Yeah, there you go. There you go. So, how do you think Robbie will do as manager? No, let's move on. No, just... We'll move on from that one. April, thank you for the call. April, thanks, Eddie Howe. It should be the next England manager. Oh, should we try and squeeze Nathan in before the news? No, let's go to Nathan after the news. So, I'm with you, Clint. I think it's going to be Gareth Southgate's decision. I think you think what he's being through this tournament. I think, if I was Southgate, you've got the World Cup in a couple of years. I think they'll breeze through qualifying again, wasn't it? Yeah, that's right. And then it comes to a tournament, this group of players. You know, Waterwood have had another couple of seasons. Yes. He's a fantastic player. Cobby Maynew, another couple of years of experience. Saka, Fordham, Bellingham. Bellingham. You know, there's so many options and another two years of experience. You know, these players would have a great opportunity. Will he be thinking about that? I think, you know what? The World Cup? Or do you think? I think he might think he's had enough. It's going to be a big, big call. But I think it has to be that of Southgate. Definitely. I think the FA should be, leave it up to him and say, "Gather, what do you want to do?" Because back to about Euro finals, you know, so close in major tournaments, it should be down to Gareth. Now, more 606. On Five Live. ♪ This is BBC Radio 5 Live. Call free. 08085. 909-693. Text 85058. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Plus, see our privacy notice. BBC.co.uk/5live. Welcome back to 606. Just a reminder, I will be presenting a special 606 tomorrow morning alongside Natalie Pike and Stephen Hornet between 9am and 11am, getting your reaction from tonight's world. Yesterday's final now, Clinton, because, you know, we'll be here, myself and you, Clinton, until just about half 12. The number to call is 08085, 909-693. Rob, before you go, before you go, I want to ask you a question. I think you cannot. Why is it, you know, when England scored that goal? Why do you think they dropped off? I've seen a lot of teams do that in this tournament. Yeah, but England, I said on the show last night to Chris, and Chris hammered me for it, watching England play this tournament, when they go behind, they seem to be more expansive, you think they are going to go on and win the game. So when they got the equaliser tonight, I thought, go on the front foot, you know, and go and win it, but they did drop. I don't know why. I really don't know why. You know, we've been on the pitch, Clinton, many, many times. When you go up, you're natural instinct. As the clock's running down, we've been in teams where you go backwards. You go towards your ongoing defender. And people will tell you, get out, get up the pitch. But as players, you don't. That's hard. You'll never understand why. When you're on that pitch in that scenario, we've been in that team. We've won the lot, and you're thinking, right, you've got forward players, do agree yourself. You know, we had to make our foresell. Yeah, exactly. You know, I'm thinking, right, with five yards outside our own box, and then hold it in our own half. And the manager's saying, get up the path, get out, get out. You can't. Yeah, it does happen. He's right. I was just wondering, because I'm thinking England had them then. When they scored that equaliser, go on the front foot, but they just let Spain come back into it. But maybe Spain turned it up another gear as well. And you know what, as well, you know, Harry Kane's getting a lot of stick. I think, you know, unfairly for what he's done. Yeah. Declan Rice. So people talk about Rodger and Fabian Ruiz in Mill of the Park. Listen, Coby Manu, you know, has had a brilliant tournament. Declan Rice for 100 million. It's not his fault, the price tag. Should he do more? Yeah, I think Declan Rice will be... Yeah, I think... No, but I actually think he could have done more. I think Declan Rice is a fantastic foreblower to figure out a great season. Arsenal, listen, I don't think he's been poor in this tournament, but I think when you look at him in that deeper role, I don't think he has to be that deep to collect the ball of stones on Mark Gay. I think we can push Declan Rice further... England, so we can push Declan Rice further on where he's driving with the ball, because he can be a number eight and drive and make fantastic runs like he did at Arsenal and scored goals. So I think he was just a bit too deep in this tournament. Oh, wait, 25, nine, nine, six, nine, three. Nathan, how are you? Yeah, good thanks, nice to speak to you. Good, good. What did you make of that final yesterday? Well, before I go in my tirade of criticism, I do want to say the positives in that we haven't gone out of the tournament in disgrace. We haven't gone out of any tournament in disgrace and to self-gate, and there are positive memories, and I'm grateful again for at least one moment I have to know it where. I watched the first half in the pub, and then I got sentimental, and I went to my dad's for the second half. We were one-nil down, and that equalizer was just such a wonderful moment, you know, to share that with my dad. And then we did end up losing, but it's something we all never forget, you know, and that's what football is about. So I do want to like keep some positivity in there and show some gratitude for what Southgate's done. But I just think we lost this final before the final started, you know, throughout the tournament, we haven't found our fee, we haven't prepared well. I just think it's a bit unforgivable that, you know, we prayed Southgate for making big calls of leaving Grieish and Rashford at home, and, you know, taking Gordon, who is the more informed player, but he didn't play him at all. And I think it was really obvious from the first game, you know, he tried to play, vote, and I'm betting him together. And most people who had agreed with that, they're two absolutely amazing players. You won all your best players on the pitch. But it was clear that, you know, Foden wasn't able to keep wide. He wanted to come inside now. You weren't the group that got to the final? Well, yeah, but, you know, that's fine. But in terms of when we did enough to get to the final, but in terms of winning the final, we weren't, if we'd had, like, the team that was needed power from day one, the one that I'd best throw out the tournament and maybe been good enough to be the best team in the tournament and beat Spain in the final. But because we struggle with trying to play, you know, it's like one part Gerardo over again. You know, I think Foden controversial, maybe, but I think Foden maybe should have been dropped and we should have backed. But the attacking would feel down and said, "Do you know what, Phil?" And, you know, you want to come naturally in the centre. You can do that off the bench. We're going to start Gerardo because we know he'll stay left. I'm crying out at the left. He didn't pose any further. Oh, the line's not great, Nathan. Sorry, Nathan, the line's not good at all. Do you think Nathan's got a point in clicking off? He makes a good point about Gerardo. I think this game was crying out for Gerardo. Again, Spain. I think Cavio, I think he's a brilliant defender. But whereas the game goes on, I think Gerardo's pace, he could have brought him on and made it different. But I would never be dropping Phil Foden. I'll have to find a way to get Phil Foden. He's just got a player of the year in the Premier League. He's been the best player in the Premier League. Drew Belling's got a player of the year for Real Madrid. So both of them you find a way of getting them. Maybe I was crying out, Rob, I wanted Belling to drop deeper with Rice and put Foden in the tournament. And then there would have been room for Gordon on that left hand side. But that's too positive. That's me with my manager's head on, but I'm not Gareth Southgate. He sees these players day in, day out in training. Everyone's screaming for Gordon. But for some reason, Gareth didn't give him a lot of opportunities. You know, I listen, managers have big decisions to make. It's like you leave, you want to play all your best players. You want to try and find a formation for all your best players, your creative players. It's got to be a balance. You know, and it's such a tough one. I'm sure as my managerial career goes on and like, listen, my end quick. You'll be enough. You know what I wanted to say, Seth? So to try and make big decisions. One thing I would have done though, I definitely would have taught Jack Greenish. I think he's a big, big moment player. I'd have taken Rice with me. Yeah, that's another one you can take. They've got to experience that tournament, isn't it? And that pays for cause problems, Mum. We're not the managers, are we? So, can I? Gary, how are you? Evening traps. Evening, but getting by. Come on then. The reason I was taught him is, I feel like people see this South Coast stuff as sort of like a binary issue, where you've got to love him or hate him. I think that you can respect anything that he's done for England, but then also hope that he falls on his sword. I'm a Chelsea fan, so just to look at it from a Chelsea perspective, I'm assuming, you know, other people do it at clubs. But with Chelsea, Ranieri is really well respected. Chelsea is really well liked, you know, fans still love him. And he did a great job at Chelsea, really building it, even before a Brownbridge came in. People think that Roman came in and suddenly Chelsea became a team. But he built Chelsea, where he signed Frank Manpark for 11 million from West Ham. He replaced Frank the birth in the defense with John Terry, and really brought John Terry through. He signed Idica Johnson, you know, integrated him. And then when Roman came in, he signed the likes of Wayne Bridge, McAlaylee, he even signed Petter Chek and I and Robin, before Jose came in in the January, and then obviously Jose used them, Damian Duff. He built an incredible nucleus and spine at Chelsea, but then he just wasn't a killer as a manager. And I don't know if you guys ever remember when he took Chelsea to our first Champions League semi-final. We beat the invincibles of Arsenal in the quarters, Wayne Bridge called the winner. - Wayne Bridge, yeah. - And we played. - Yeah, and we played Monaco at the start of Louis Duh, and now the player sent off, and the game was gifted to us. But then he sort of had this erratic moment where he put Jimmy Ford Housellbank as a right back and brought Veron off the bench when he wasn't even fit, and he sort of just lost it in this moment, and that sort of was just the final nail in the coffin. And then Jose wins the Champions League report, so he gets that Monaco team, and then he becomes the special one, and the pro-scomp is everything. But Chelsea fans never looked down around the area. They sort of just see it that he took us as far as he could, and I feel like the Southgate is that, I think what he's done for this football has been incredible. It's done eight years where you've got to think about where we were when he came in, and he's been a gentleman about it. He's made us respected again, but he's got us to two finals, which I think is incredible. I'm 41. My first World Cup, I remember, was Italian 90. You know, England was my first love before Chelsea, and he's brought that back. But I just feel like now someone else needs to come in. I don't know that man is, but someone needs to come in to make this team kill us. And I feel like looking at Chelsea 20 years ago when Jose became that guy, I was thinking in a national perspective, that England need to find someone to do that, because we've got so many incredible young players. You know, and I'll talk about Chelsea again, Cole Palmer, the goal we scored tonight, and I was there professing to everyone that he was going to win us, you know, the Euros, unfortunately, it happened. But I just feel like you look at what we've got, and we've got incredible talent from Harry Kane right down to younger players. And if we don't find someone is going to make them killers in those moments. - But who would you, who then? - Who then, Gary, who? It's like, obviously, you know. - I know, that's when it becomes, that's when it becomes fantasy football, and people, you know, can talk about crop, they can talk about others. I honestly would love to say to you. Yeah, I know the guy. Obviously, that's what people at the FA have paid to, you know, to unearth these gems. - If Gareth Southgate decides to leave, yeah, because I think it has to be his decision for what he's done. And the FA were to appoint a potter, or a Eddie Howe. How would you feel? - Well, I would like to see potter, because I know it sounds silly to Chelsea fan, because he didn't have the best experience. But as he was, when he got the sack, things were actually getting better, and he took over a madhouse on the club anyway. But then, equally, look, I know I'm Chelsea fan, and I'm a Chelsea fan, and you're probably going to laugh and say I'm deluded. I'll look at what Frank Lampard did when he came in after Sarri, transfer and bar go, everything else. And the way he got a nucleus of young players, Tammy Abraham, Takari, Tomori, Mason, Mount, Reish James, and he bought that team through and got Chelsea into the top four. And six weeks before he got sacked, you know, six months after that, he was top of the table. I know, you know, in different circumstances ever in the last season when he came in at Chelsea, it was just dreadful. But I feel like what he's done with young players, maybe someone like that could do it. I know he hasn't got the experience and it would be a shot in the dark. But, you know, I'm not here advocating Frank, by the way, but I just look at that and you look at Spain tonight. You know, their coach has gone on to win the Euro. See, he will, I'm sure that if you had asked any Spanish fans, who would you like to be coached? They wouldn't have had him at the top of this, but look what he's done. Gary, you must have been thinking exactly what I was going to say to you, because I was going to say that. I bet a lot of the fans were happy when he got the manager's job, but he's come from the younger age groups, and I think that's the next option. And that's what Gareth did and came in and done a good job. I don't know about Frank Lamport. It's a difficult one, but Frank's name does get mentioned a lot when it comes to the England manager. Would you take Frank Lamport as the next England manager? Take your Chelsea hat off, by the way. Well, I would because I'm fortunate to have worked with Frank, and I love him as a person, and in my eyes, he's the greatest player I've ever seen in the flesh, and I've watched a lot of times as well, Robbie. But honestly, the way he talks about football and the way he sees it, and look, I know it's all theory and it's tactics board stuff, and you've got to apply it. But at the same time, he did stuff. You've got Chelsea to an FA Cup final. I know we lost it, but Pulisic was on fire in that game, and he got injured and did his hamstring, and the whole game flipped on the back of that, and maybe we would have won the FA Cup as Chelsea manager. But I feel like someone like him, and I know Gary Linek has made a big play about him on his podcast, and he's talking about him, and we've spent a lot of time together on the BBC's coverage around the tournament. So I try to take my Chelsea hat off, I can't. I know I'm completely biased, but I feel like someone like him, you've done incredible things with young players and is well respected, and someone has been in tournaments with England and failed, and maybe knows how to get around that failure. But also as well, the football Chelsea played on the Frank. Again, people put it down a little bit. But we played incredible, attacking football. There was a few dingdongs in there where we'd win games for three or three. You know what? Guys, we've established your mate with Frank, but you know what I'd say, Rob? What about Lee Cosby then? Lee Cosby, he's doing a good job at the England under 21s. I don't know if he'd won the job. Well, the Spanish manager won the 19s, the 21s, and now... But you know, Gareth Southgate was the... Yes. Was he the 21s manager? No. No, he's right, you're right. Yeah, of course you're right. So there is a natural progression there. Gareth Southgate has proven that there is a progression there, but... I would have loved to... Not sure Lee Cosby's... Yeah, quite... I don't think he won there anyway, because he got off of the island job. I think so. There was rumours and... But I wasn't sure about Southgate. But he's proven, you know, the last two tournaments. Two finals. I'd have loved to know, Rob, though, how Gary worked with Frank Denny. Yeah, yeah. Oh, wait, 25, nine, nine, six, nine, three. Just ten minutes to get your calls in before Dotten comes on. Ha, past 12. Brian, how are you? Numbers, how are you? Are you good tonight? We're all right, right? Good. It's a shame about tonight, because we've played decent football. But I think, to a degree, you got picked apart tonight... By a farmer, skill 14. I think, personally, the top three leagues in British football. They still play basketball. Get in there, bang, I cross, forced me, bang, bang, bang, but I whistle. And if that don't work, you get lost. You don't know what to do. Spain picked it apart tonight, by sheer skill. Until we can get some kind of mentality, where skill and ball play can come into me in a game will always be second or third best. I've always looked at the best football team I've ever seen. I'm 17, 17, 17, 78 now. We're Brazil in 66, 70. It is simple. It's a pure, it is simple. Now, they've got the ball on the bat, bat, bat, bat, bat. Now, there's our defenders all over that field. We want to go by the bottom, pass, pass, bang. We're in there. Come again, bat, bat, bat, bat, bat, bat, bat. Again, bat, bat, bat, bat, bat, bat, bat, bat, bat, bat. And people realized, if you score one goal, we'll score four. And you can prove yourself. But we've got to get past this mentality of... Thunderclap football. It's going to be a long way to set in red. Hello? Yeah, I'm listening, Brian. I'm listening. I'm so entertaining at what you're saying. I do agree with you. I think Spain were the better team. And Spain gave England a lesson in the way they played football, without a shadow of doubt. I even thought when Roger went off, I thought England were going to win it. But then they just bring on replacements who adapt and know the style of play. Spain won a play so I totally agree with you. But you know what I'm saying today? The way Spain press with their intensity. That was the thing. They stop England playing. They go and press with their intensity. I don't think England do that enough. And the problem with England, I don't think the reason they did that was Spain, is because as you said, Spain would pop, pop, pop. So you make some really good points, Brian. But they don't pick just some sort of it. And to watch that team... We've got to get that kind of mentality. Seeping into England game. We're passing and probing. And join defenders here and there. If you hold on to it, standing around on field. You can beat a team, somebody's still. We've got pass in that place at the right time. And that's a lot of time. So they did it. Okay, Brian. You've got to get some kind of skill by catching England game. So a lot of it is certainly the best. Brian, thank you so much for the call. Let's go to Mohammed. How are you, Mohammed? I believe you guys, okay? Yeah, because thanks. I mean, you could hear in my voice very, very disappointed today. You know, you've got the nation together. I've got a few things that I have to get out of my chest today. I feel, you know, kind of a fat gate. Let us down. I'll be honest. I'm not sure you guys would agree with me. I mean, yes. He's taken us to use finals. He's taken us to a semi-final. But we, I just don't understand today. I mean, the nation has been crying out of this. But today was a day where he did not have to put Hurricane on. Acting is not bigger than the country. Reading that cup was more important than adapting. It's fantastic there. But playing Spain, playing that team, was not Hurricane's game. We needed attacking football. We needed people who were going to go onto the defense of Spain. And, you know, making mistakes. And we see when the substitutions happen. But that should have been from the outset. That should have been from the beginning. And we could have probably won them. I mean, I just see Barastar there and let us down. I'll be honest. He's got away with it in the last two or three games where, you know, individual players got him out of jail. But today was the day he had to make some crucial decisions where he thought, you know, how it came, maybe today you can't play from the beginning. We're going to have to, you know, the country is more important. Reading that cup is more important than any individual. Yeah, Mohammed, you make some good points. But let me tell you something. Now, any manager, any manager, and I'm going to top manager like Pep Guardiola, any manager would have started Hurricane today. They would have started Hurricane. I disagree. No, honestly. I think they would have. I'll tell you why I disagree with you. I'll tell you why I disagree with you. If you think Pep Guardiola are merigno, you name me some top managers. You know, when they want to win something, they look at how to win that game. What do you say, Pochatino is a top manager? Pochatino is a good manager. He started Hurricane when he wasn't fit in the Champions League Final. Yes, yes. The top managers have started Hurricane when he's not quite right. OK, so let me put something else forward to you then. So what was the point of taking all those top English players warming the bench? What was the point of that? Yes, yes. So he could have put Gordon on. He could have put a title exam. He could have. He could have, yeah. And he should have made those decisions. Today, we wouldn't have been, today, I was at the moment, I was sure if he played, he started without having came today and we even lost. The nation wouldn't have been upset. They would have said, at least he's changed it. We've had, you know, we've got our way within that game. Who would you have started? Who would you have started? If you're not playing Hurricane, who would you have played? I would have called Palmer 110%. Well, as a number nine. No, no, no. I would have had called Palmer today in the starting line and I would have had Watkins. Right? Okay. So let me put something else for you guys, right? So tell me if I'm wrong in this. So these English players, so I'm going out of this, talking about something else now. English players, are they looking, are these players looking great because they're playing around ordinary players in the public? Why don't we have skillful players like Spain have? So why, like for example, there's called Palmer. There's Gordon City. These are skillful players. But Spain took decisions for a 16 year old and they played him for the whole tournament. So why can't England take risks? Mohamed, thank you so much for the call. Clinton, we've got one more call. Salim, how are you? Yeah, I'm going to thank. I appreciate the place. I'll quickly get to it again. Listen to all the guys. They haven't talked about our ability to pass the ball and that I've been watching football for the first years and the three teams we've lost to Croatia, Spain, Italy, where it outlays us. You know, you've been out there. Junior, moderate, lottery and we talk about England, they have to pass better. But I'm being honest in all my fun watching, we don't have many players that can actually keep the ball or hold the ball or transition us through the defensive field. I mean, probably Paul Gasco and the first time I watched England was the closest we had to, probably Paul Skoll's, but then we moved him out of position. So we talked about, you know, can we just pass better? Cole Palmer's greenish. But actually, you know, how are we ever going to play like Spain, Italy, Croatia? We, you know, we don't actually have that player. Maybe maybe you might get there. Deccan-wise, Deccan-wise, I'd say, Deccan-wise is more similar to Jude Bellamyen. And actually, you'd probably only want one other team. So in the absence of that, maybe, you know, we have to change away with play. High prep attacking. If you look at the Liverpool team under Klopp, they didn't have that great pass or someone could do it. So actually, I think, you know, I do think it's time for Gareth to probably move on. I think he's done a great job. I mean, he's had some good games. I know he's been talking about the extent of selection. But I've gained against France in '22. I've only had about 58% of selection. So people do forget that, you know, we have had plays in decent games at high possessions. I think I do think it's time for Gareth to go. I don't think it's easier to always be, like, staying and learn to pass if you don't have the players. So, I mean, my final point now, pause is really, I think we probably need to go to a high-press install. I mean, I'm a Newcastle fan. I'm hoping to see Eddie Howe go. But, you know, Eddie Howe has got those players playing in position, working hard, high-press. And maybe that is the right style thing. And, you know, things can happen in short times. You know, look at Germany. There were nowhere a year ago. There were no Julian Megalsman calling there. And probably, you know, they paid the second best football of the tournament. Actually, they could have potentially beaten Spain. So, with the right management, that's big. You know, you don't have to be the same as all the other teams. But at Liverpool, they're in quite the older. You can go a different win-win, though. I think just thinking about differently about it. All in the same, we want to be the same as everyone else. If you don't have the players, you sort of think about it differently. Yeah, selling some good points there. Thank you so much for ending 6-0-6 this evening. Clinton, thank you so much. I enjoyed your company once again, mate. Really good. You're having a little break now from football? Yeah, holiday time now with the family. Nice. You have a great time. You have a great time. Thank you so much. And thanks for listening. And thanks for all your calls tonight. If you didn't get through apologies, we had so many calls. But you've got another chance tomorrow morning. As I'm back with 6-0-6 between 9am and 11am, alongside Natalie Pike and Stephen Warner to get more of your action from tonight's final Next Up on Five Live. It's the legend that is Dotton Adebayo. 6-0-6 is a shooting shot production for BBC Radio. Five Live. Good night, Clinton. And over to you, Dotton. Well, thank you very much.