SEO 101

Web Design for SEO

Ross and John discuss the issues that you can come across when you are an SEO working with a web designer, including securing pages being indexed, plus how web designers are expected to understand SEO, and what are the best ways to work with a design firm. Our Sponsors: * Producer Brasco: As digital professionals and business owners, we understand the critical importance of a secure and high-performing website. That's why I want to talk to you about Kinsta, a managed WordPress hosting provider that delivers exceptional speed, security, and reliability. Kinsta's infrastructure is optimized for WordPress, ensuring your site loads lightning-fast and ranks well in search results. They utilize Google Cloud's premium tier network and C3D virtual machines, which significantly boost performance. In fact, Kinsta customers often experience up to a 200% increase in site speed just by migrating to their platform. Security is paramount, and Kinsta provides enterprise-grade measures to protect your valuable data. They are one of the few WordPress hosting providers with SOC2 certification, guaranteeing the highest level of security for your website. Kinsta's MyKinsta dashboard offers a user-friendly interface with a comprehensive suite of tools to manage your site efficiently. From cache control and debugging to redirects and CDN setup, MyKinsta simplifies website administration. For SEO 101 listeners, Kinsta offers specific advantages. Their platform is optimized for speed, a crucial ranking factor in search engine algorithms. Their security measures protect your site from malware and hacking attempts that could damage your online presence. And their expert support team is available 24/7 to assist with any technical issues that may arise. If you're serious about your online presence and want a hosting provider that prioritizes performance, security, and support, I highly recommend Kinsta. Visit kinsta.com today to learn more and take advantage of their limited-time offer for new customers. That's k-i-n-s-t-a dot com. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Duration:: 34m
Broadcast on:: 25 Jan 2010
Audio Format:: other

Ross and John discuss the issues that you can come across when you are an SEO working with a web designer, including securing pages being indexed, plus how web designers are expected to understand SEO, and what are the best ways to work with a design firm.

Our Sponsors:
* Producer Brasco: As digital professionals and business owners, we understand the critical importance of a secure and high-performing website. That's why I want to talk to you about Kinsta, a managed WordPress hosting provider that delivers exceptional speed, security, and reliability. Kinsta's infrastructure is optimized for WordPress, ensuring your site loads lightning-fast and ranks well in search results. They utilize Google Cloud's premium tier network and C3D virtual machines, which significantly boost performance. In fact, Kinsta customers often experience up to a 200% increase in site speed just by migrating to their platform. Security is paramount, and Kinsta provides enterprise-grade measures to protect your valuable data. They are one of the few WordPress hosting providers with SOC2 certification, guaranteeing the highest level of security for your website. Kinsta's MyKinsta dashboard offers a user-friendly interface with a comprehensive suite of tools to manage your site efficiently. From cache control and debugging to redirects and CDN setup, MyKinsta simplifies website administration. For SEO 101 listeners, Kinsta offers specific advantages. Their platform is optimized for speed, a crucial ranking factor in search engine algorithms. Their security measures protect your site from malware and hacking attempts that could damage your online presence. And their expert support team is available 24/7 to assist with any technical issues that may arise. If you're serious about your online presence and want a hosting provider that prioritizes performance, security, and support, I highly recommend Kinsta. Visit kinsta.com today to learn more and take advantage of their limited-time offer for new customers. That's k-i-n-s-t-a dot com.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

The opinions expressed on this webmasterradio.fm program are those of the hosts, guests and callers. And do not reflect those of the staff, management or advertisers of webmasterradio.fm. Any rebroadcast or retransmission of this program, without the express written consent of webmasterradio.fm is prohibited. Welcome to SEO 101, your introductory course on search engine optimization. So turn on your computers, open your minds, grab your mouse and get ready to get back to the basics. SEO 10101 on webmasterradio.fm is now in session. Hello and welcome to SEO 101 on webmasterradio.fm. This is Ross Dunn, CEO of Step 4th Web Marketing and my co-host is John Carcutt, the SEO manager for MediaWiz. How are you doing, John? I'm doing great. Ross, how are you? Excellent. Excellent. I forget to ask you, are you headed out to Pubcon South by your chance? No. I'm sticking close until SMX West, which is in March 2nd to 4th. Okay, just hoping to see you in one of these shows one of these days. Yeah, the last one would be nice, are you going to that? Well, I'm going to try. I really, really am, but you said it's March, correct? March 2nd to 4th. Yeah, it's such a big one, you know, and it's got Steve Bomber speaking. Yeah, I know. I want to see. Was it keynote? That would be cool. I'm going to give it a shot. We'll see. Awesome. Just tell them to Steve Bomber. Just tell them to tell them to tell them to hear your ears and they'll go, "Okay. You've got to be there." Yeah. West to me, personally. He wants to talk to me. Yes, Steve. You've got to send me. We'll leave it and I'll listen to the show. So today, we want to talk about an often run into issue which is web designers and SEO. You know, kudos to web designers, they've got a lot on their plate these days. There is so much they've got to keep on top of. Back when I did web design, it was really a joke and comparison to now. There's so much CSS styles are constantly changing. W3C compliance, which many don't really worry about these days, but, you know, it is still there. There's a lot to do. And, you know, what do you think, John? I think a web designer, in my opinion, shouldn't have to know SEO. In fact, I think it's dangerous to expect they do. Yeah. And I also started out web design. You know, I think I built my first site in '96. I think it was for any commerce site and there was like two companies that even offered e-commerce services at the time online and the difference between what we had to do back then versus what designers have to deal with today is just immense and amazing. I can't imagine that, to do what they do and do what we do and have any kind of ability to be good at either one, because, you know what I mean? It's like, I can see a web design firm, maybe having an SEO guy in the house to help, you know, training and reviewing sites they build, but web designers have to try to do what they do plus do what we do, I would just do a drive me crazy. Yeah. And you know what? I think it's a good point you made there about an agency or someone that has an SEO in house. I think if I were a client looking at a company who said, "Look, we've got someone in a house we can handle that. You don't need to hire out." I would say, "All right, does that person only do SEO?" They say, "Yes, well, no. Do they only do SEO or do they also do social media because if they're doing both, I'm sorry, you know, speaking from my perspective here, not as a client, but as a student SEO, it's no frickin' way. You can keep up on both. 100%. It has gotten so intense. Yeah. And part of the problem designers are facing right now is that at some point in the past couple years, web design firms, web design companies have started saying, "Hey, I do SEO, too." And whether they did it or not, or whether they knew what they were doing or not, they were saying they were doing it, and they were pitching it to clients. Now, it's expected. There's a lot of people that go out looking for design firm, and one of their criteria is that design firm has to know SEO. Yeah. So they're under a lot of pressure. They're under a ton of pressure to at least present themselves as knowing SEO, again. And that's where the problem lies, and, you know, I say it again, I feel for them. Unfortunately, I've been put into a lot of awkward positions lately because I'm getting design sent to me, which are not optimized, or the client has come to me and said, "Look, I don't understand. My site was optimized. It was launched six months ago or even two years ago sometimes, and, you know, they optimized it. They did it, and it's not working." I'm like, "Well, those tactics that were applied, you know, I'll do an audit for them, and I'll find out what's wrong." And so much of what was applied is way outdated because they're going by the old rule books. It's the stuff that's easiest to find online. It's not the difficult, "Okay, what's good? What's working on SEO right now?" And that takes a lot of reading, and frankly, you just can't keep up on that kind of stuff. Yeah, and there's a whole other level of those, too, Ross. There's a lot of firms building websites that are not design firms. So I've been with a number of companies that go to programming houses that have, you know, in-house CMS systems that manage e-commerce platforms and all this stuff. And that programming house, "Oh, yeah, we have a design team, too. We'll deal with your design, as well." No, don't worry about SEO. We've built everything to be SEO-friendly. And then, if I goodness client will say, "Well, we're going to have our SEOs look at it." And then, next thing you know, I'm at a screaming match with a .NET programmer. So... [laughter] You would never scream. No. And I will tell you, and I've said this for many years, and if there's any programmers out there, I apologize ahead of time. Programmers are the bane of my existence, I'm sorry. [laughter] You shouldn't get me a hate mail for that, I don't know. Yeah. [laughter] Listen once in a while. [laughter] Oh, yeah. Well, we all have our things, that's for sure. One of the recent ones, recent issues, and one of the ones I've got run down here, was I was getting to the company, a very good design company. Oh my God, I'm very impressed with what they did. Their content management system and everything is amazing. Now, I would normally say their name, of course, now I've got to put something out here that they wouldn't like. So, essentially, the deal is, they did exactly what we were just talking about. They optimized the site, and they did a half-decent job. You know, the URLs looked good, titles weren't bad, the layout, the navigation was stupendous, it was really well done, very search engine friendly. In fact, I gave it a, which is pretty hard to get, a 7, 7 1/2 out of 10, on optimization before I even got into it. So, that's pretty good. That's good. Unfortunately, there's some major issues, and they were using the nofollow tag on particular pages to, or no index, nofollow, on, okay, this is a little weird, which is what really confused me. I think when I first dealt with it, their secure pages within the site, say, there are just a good pages like order information, or, you know, these are general pages, you don't have to go through a shopping cart, there's no clicks that would, you know, cut out a search engine. This is, these are actually accessible pages, and they had some good content on them. They were blocking those because they figured that they would rather have the non-HTTP, the non-secure version indexed, because they figured they'd both get indexed, so we should block the one that's secure. Now, all the links on the site go to the secure page, there's really no link going to the non-secure. I mean, this isn't making sense, right? Don't, I was forced to explain that you always want to open up something unless it's, but it's frankly, if it's something you don't want people to see, it shouldn't be available visibly without logging in anyway. Yeah. For secure pages, you'd want to log in. But I've run across this many times, HTTPS pages being indexed in the search engines from a site, and I treat this exactly the same way I treat www versus non-WWW. You pick one, you go with it, and you block the other one. So I've seen this as where, like, what'll happen is someone will have a, they'll use, this is really, from a designer standpoint, what causes this is whether you're using relative URLs for your internal links or full URLs for your internal links. If you're using relative URLs, and the difference here is that, for those of you who are not designers and do HTML coding all the time, if in your link on your site, it says http www.domain.com/page, and that's what it links to is the URL, that's a full URL. The URL is when it goes dot, dot, backslash, page name, dot, ASP, or whatever it is. That's a relative URL. It's linking to a page based on where it's at relative to the current page. If you're using relative pages, and someone drills through and gets to a secure page, and somewhere on that page, there's a link back to the home page, or back to another page, and it's a relative URL, it now goes back to the HTTPS version of that page. So now you've got the HTTPS version of the whole site's going to be indexed HTTPS now, and then the standard site. So you've got two versions of your site being indexed, and I've seen it happen where just like with www versus non-WWW, one day a page that's the right page will be indexed, and the next page it drops out because the HTTPS version was indexed, and it didn't have any links, juice, or anything to it. So it drops out of the rankings. So to me, it is an issue, however, from what you're saying, Ross, if there's no other links, if they're using full URLs, instead of relative URLs, I agree with you completely. Pick one and go with it, and if you're using HTTPS pages, use that, if you're not using the non-severe. Yeah, I mean, if you're going to choose a choose the one that you would actually want people to go to. I mean, these things had forms on them, and they didn't want their information to be compromised. Well, keep it HTTPS, and they didn't think that HTTPS was indexed, and it is. Anyone who doesn't know that, it's important to know, they are indexed just fine. Literally, less than an hour ago, I was looking at a site that's a prospect, and it's a pretty big name, and they had the first two listings for their brand, was the home page, and then the deep site. The third listing for their brand was an HTTPS page on their same domain, so they actually had the first three listings for the same domain for their brand, because one of them was HTTPS. Perfect. There you go. Okay, we'll take a quick break, and when we come back, we're going to move on to another question or another issue that we've at least I've faced recently with a web designer as well. SEO 101 will be back right after recess. Hey, this is Danny Sullivan to talk to you about the Bruce Clay Incorporated. 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Welcome back to SEO 101 on webmasterradio.fm, which is on Carcutt, SEO manager for MediaWiz, and myself, Ross Don, CEO of Stepforth Web Marketing, Inc. So we were just talking about issues that come from, in this case, it was secure pages being indexed and whether or not they should be indexed. There's some stuff that, unfortunately, web designers, just because they don't have all the information, make leaps and it can cause problems. So, I guess what we're coming around to here is that the object of this or the topic here is don't just rely on the web design company, I don't know what you, but I highly recommend it at least get it verified by an independent SEO who's doing it 100% of the time. So, real quick question, Ross, what do you think about SEOs who offer design services? I like to stick to one thing. I don't know how they can do that well, too. I mean, how can you do that well? You've got to do one thing and do it right. I agree completely. Just like we talked about, if a design firm had an SEO on staff, it did nothing but SEO. Maybe if the SEO company is big enough to have their own design team, possibly. But I agree. I mean, if you're going to focus on something in this particular case where it's so detailed and so many different things to be aware of and so many changes happening on a regular base as you find an SEO, you're not going to be at the level you should be if you're trying to focus on too many different aspects of online web development. Yeah, in these days, you have to be at the top of your game and everything you do for a client to succeed. And so, I think it's actually irresponsible to try and do both. And it's going to be a -- there's a bit of a backlash there. You know, these companies that are saying they can do it all, it's going to look good to some people, but it's also going to look bad to others. So, I don't envy them, they're not an easy position at all. But I do think that they've got a very sound argument that they say, "No, we don't do SEO in a house. We work with a solid company that has this and provide their information that talks about, you know, just how good they are, their experience, perhaps already being written, perhaps that they're a host on SEO 101, you know, just show that they know what they're doing. And I think it would be very difficult for anyone to say that's bad. And, you know, they can handle it all, they can be in between so the client doesn't have to worry about it, but doesn't mean that that SEO has to be in-house. I agree. I definitely agree. So the next one -- the next one is based on some old intel. And that is -- and I've run it this multiple times, not quite recently, actually, where web designers say that any duplicate content is the worst thing possible, like they are just fanatical about it. So if there's any duplicate content, it must be blocked, as simple as that. Well, the fact is Google -- I'm not going to face the Google's name, I know it's just saying Google, like, you know, Bing, you know, they're there there, but Google's one. They are much, much smarter with duplicate content. They don't worry about the odd thing being duplicated. And obviously you want to block stuff that's 100% duplicate, you know, if there's a PDF version of the page, if there's a print version of the page, yeah, sure, block those. You know, put that in your robust.text, make sure that that is an area that the search engines don't index. If they do, it's not the end of the world, though. The page that gets the links is the one you want, the one that's going to do well. And you can also use rel canonical links, you know, canonical rel equals canonical meta text on each of the pages. If you left all of it open -- and this is not a thing you guess you can do now, John, you could set up rel canonical on all sort of every page in your site. I do that, man. And all the PDFs are, sorry, the print version, you could rel canonical back to the one that was the original. Can you do rel canonical on PDFs, the files themselves? That's it. You know what? I doubt it. But I don't know if it can. I guess it's possible. This is not for a PDF oriented. If you actually own the software, can you add your own meta data, I guess, into the header of a PDF? Yes. So now, whether or not that can be done, I don't know. I've had the pro version for years, and I have still been taking all the tutorials. There's so much you can learn about that stuff. It's crazy. When it comes to duplicate content for me, and this is, you know, if you're dealing with a design firm or even an SEO or SEO firm, the easiest way to tell if they have any clue of what they're talking about when it comes to duplicate content is listen for one word. If they call it a duplicate penalty, run away. Just turn around and say, "Nice talk with you. Bye-bye." Because that's the thing is a duplicate penalty. It might seem that way because some pages get filtered, but if they call it, their penalty still means they're not up to the speed on what the issues really are with duplicate content. Yeah. You know what? I disagree slightly, just not based on what you said. You're right about what you said, but there is a duplicate content. And that is if your whole site is duplicated, but it's not a penalty per se. It's still a filter. It's true, but I mean, what is a penalty? It is a filter. It always is. There's real penalties. Yeah. But I mean, if your site is 100% duplicated from another site, let's say a scraped site, that's going to get a penalty. Yeah. A scraped site is going to get a penalty. That kind of thing would be correct there, but that's... I'm being literal. But that's because that's a good point. I'll have to think about some kind of response to that one of these days. I'll tell you over cigar. Okay. Okay. You added one here, too. Yeah. We're talking about this, you know, and I'll show you that as well, Ross. How do you deal with a firm? Because so you've got a client. Your client has a design firm they work with. They may have a couple different types of third-party people they work with, and you brought into the mix to help kind of let's make sure our site's going to do well in search. As an SEO, you're probably going to have to deal with design firms. You're probably going to have to deal with programmers that are not working for the client or not your client. What's the best way to do that? That's a good question. And you know what? It's such a good question. We're going to take a quick break and we're going to get back and talk about it. SEO 101 will be back right after recess. Are you tired of standing around while everyone gets rich, want to be an affiliate marketer that makes six figures online every month, then let me introduce you to MediaBiasCoach.com. 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With up to 75% commission, real-time sales tracking, free in-depth sales analytics and reporting tools, campaign optimization resources and now weekly payments for top-performing affiliates, our sales are climbing higher and higher. Thanks to Revenue Wire. Find out more at revenuewire.com. It's time to start jamming and spamming again with the princes of PageRank, the heroes of HTML, the sultans of surf, SEO rock stars, Tuesdays at 4 p.m. Eastern, 1 p.m. Pacific only on Webmaster Radio.fm. Okay, class, take your seats and no talking. Recess is over and SEO 101 is back in session only on webmasterradio.fm. Welcome back to SEO 101 on Webmaster Radio.fm with John Kirkut, SEO manager for MediaWiz and myself, Ross Dunn, CEO of Stepforth Web Marketing Inc. Now, John just led with a wicked question, which I'd easily cut off to break. So the gist of it was, what is the best way to work with a design firm as an SEO? Did that see it? That's in a nutshell, yeah. All right. So I think you and I may be in a little bit of advantage, Ross, because we both have a design background, and it really helps to be able to empathize with the design people and you feel their pain, you know what they're going through. If you've never dealt with scope creep on a project from a design perspective, that just drives them crazy. So, fortunately, when we get into SEO in a design project, most of the things that we recommend fall into the scope creep category, because it's not something they had planned on doing because they didn't know they were supposed to. So they end up having to do more work, and they usually have a set fee, so they don't want to do the work because they're not getting paid for the extra fee. So it becomes an issue, not just from, you know, they don't want to do it because they want to do it through a way. They don't want to do it because they're not getting paid to do it anymore, because it wasn't fit, it wasn't built into the original proposals. Do you want to cross that, Ross? Yeah, even what, I actually created a service that I don't have my website because frankly, I'm already busy enough doing it, and that is, the SEO really is a good person for an overview. Maybe I'm stressing that, but I like being the guy who's the overview. I can, you know, really, we're involved in so much of the market, and the marketing's got to be planned before a site's even designed, really, to make sure that the site can fulfill the promises of the marketing. So in my ideal world, the way to work with an SEO and a design company is design company just does the blueprint that's been created by the client and the web marketer. The blueprint is this page is about this, this, this, this, this, and it shows the structure. It even outlines the keywords so that they can create the right file names. They're like the architects, or I know the architects, I guess the builders. The architect is a mixture of the client and the web marketer and perhaps anyone else, if we're going higher level than, you know, the neighboring beginning, bringing in like the usability analyst, that kind of stuff. Once this is all put down on paper, they hand it to the designer that designer does it. This is what they do best. They do the programming, they're tickle-pink, and all the scope creep is managed by, in this case, myself, I actually am between keeping the client in line as well as the SEO, or say, the designer, to make sure that the little look there, to keep, first of all, to translate. You know, like you said, we've got this advantage of having done both. I sympathize to know and don't scope creep. It's the worst thing known to any designer. But having a person who doesn't have any interest in the designer's success, or at least how much money they're making, you just want to make sure they do a good job is a good thing. I'm not hiring anyone that actually works from my company. There's no favoritism whatsoever, unless they've done a really good job for all my other clients. You know, if they've got a good track record, there's obviously some favoritism there, but that's it. You know, independents have someone there who can run everything, who doesn't have a fiduciary interest in the third parties, and what they do, other than the fact that they should do a good job. So that's the best way to go. So I think that's a win-win situation across the board, I agree, but in most cases I don't think an SEO is going to have that luxury. They're going to be the one dealing with the client. They're going to be the one dealing with the design firm, and they're also going to be responsible for their own work. If we could get that kind of situation with a third party, that would be killer, just like a project manager. Pulling a project manager for the whole thing, that would be great. The way things are going really is it has to be, because too many 99 probably percent of at least small businesses, and probably even 100% of them actually, but 99% because I'm doing it, you know, take their website to a designer, or take their website concept to the designer, and it goes to the designer before he even touches a web marketer. You can't do that. There's too much these days to plan before a design, and the site can even be designed. Even if they don't choose the project manager, they very least have to plan the site beforehand. It's like any kind of business plan. You have to plan it all beforehand, and you can't know everything. You need to bring an expert, or experts, to help you make sure that your site is going to be, everything you need it to be. Do you need social media? Do you need, what are your goals going to be on the site, so we can make sure the site structure matches that? What kind of branding have you got ready to go? Let's get a branding company to do that. Make sure that everything is in all of ducks and a row so that they don't go to a designer, have a site launch that doesn't meet their needs. If you've been to SEO for more than 10 minutes, even today, you're going to get a request for a quote. They're going to say, "Hey, I've just finished building my site in the U.S. for me now." That's cringe every time. I've told this story before, I don't know if I've told it on the show or not. I was working for a major agency a few years ago, and we had a client come in. They had just finished building their website. They wanted SEO reviews. They wanted to say, "Now we want to get it ready for the search engines." Okay, after I bid my time for a minute, I say, "All right, let's do this." Went through, dug into their site, found tons and tons of issues, got on a conference call with the CEO, the CFO, they did it all in-house, by the way. They hired IT people, the director of IT was on the call, so they called everybody. The first thing I said is, "Okay, this is great. We've got probably 30 or 40 items we can work on here. To make this site much, much better for the search engines." I said, "But I'm going to tell you right up front, we can do every one of these items. But if you don't start your site from scratch tomorrow, none of them are going to matter. You've got to start all over again." Their architecture was so bad, I literally, that the home page redirected to a page that had over 700 characters in the URL. Oh my, wow, it was heavy. And they used a form of redirection that I had never seen before. They used a redirection using a form of field. What? I know, I wouldn't even sure how it worked, but that's what it did. And I couldn't replicate it today if I tried. It was the ridiculous thing I've ever seen. And of course, the director gets on the phone and says, "Well, he starts basically trying to cover his ass." They'd spent like $200,000 on this site. And I said, "Look, if you don't start from scratch, you're never going to be in any search engine. Period." And that's the kind of thing you've got to avoid, you need, back to the programmers being in the existence thing. That was from the last show, by the way. But you've got to have at least a base understanding of what's going to happen before you build your site. And if you go ahead and go to your SEO, you could have literally wasted all your time and money. Yeah, and I had a chat with someone recently, and I said, "When I said that you need to plan this stuff before you go, you need someone to walk you through what needs to be done. Because you simply can't know it all. You've got your own thing. You're a woodworker. You know what you do. You're the best at it. Stick to what you do. What helped you with this." And there was a certain layout and cost. And the client was, "I'm paying for a hand holder. He was just, he was flummoxed for the whole idea." I'm like, "Look, first of all, that's, I think, negative way of putting it. It's not handled here." You need an expert to help you understand what your site's going to need. And then make sure that it's built out properly before it even goes to a design. You're going to save money. I mean, look at that example. You just set 200 grand. I mean, even it was 10 grand, even it was 50. That's all redone again. That's a lot of money. And never mind that. That's jobs. Someone's going to get fired for that. Yeah. But I'm going to go back to our original question, how do we, as SEO's deal with a design firm? And the way I try to do it is, I try to be advocates for both the client and the design firm at the same time. So I'm going to go into the design firm and say, "We've got to do this. We've got to do this because it's going to make a really big impact on how successful this site is going to be for our client." If the design firm says, "Well, look, this is outside the scope of what I do and it's going to cost me money." If they haven't promised SEO in the deal, then I'll actually go back to the client and say, "Look, we've recommended a lot of stuff these guys and it's going to cost them a lot of time and resources to get this done. You might want to talk to them about renegotiating a deal a little bit because they aren't -- they aren't SEOs. You brought me into the SEO site, there's work to do. And it's not something that they would have done normally. That's just a plain design firm, so you've got to make sure that we compensate them. Try to try to be a media moderator at that point. Yeah, it's a joy of our job, though, I want to tell you, I'm there almost every day doing that. And you know what, it's right. You're right. You've got to be the person that just handles everything and makes it easy. So definitely online with you on that one. Sometimes the design company just won't be, unfortunately. Sometimes they're just not going to help. They maybe wanted to move right on and that's just an unfortunate position and it does happen to the clients to really get left, holding the bag and, you know, plan, plan, plan, please, everyone, plan. You're just going to save yourself a ton of money and, frankly, your site will be ready to rock right when it launches, which is a lot to be said instead of coming to a designer or a web marketer who is saying, look, I need this done. Okay, now we're going to take a few months to get that done. It just doesn't make any sense. Anyways, we are running over time here on behalf of myself, Ross Dunn, CEO of Step 4th Web Marketing and John Carcutt, SEO Manager for MediaWiz. Thanks for joining us today. Our Twitter ideas are mine's @RossDunn. John's. John Carcutt. Okay. And 5 p.m. Eastern, 2 p.m. Pacific, every Monday is our show, but forward to speaking with you next week. Cheers. [Music]