SEO 101

Keyword Research with the Keyword Guru

Keyword Research with the Keyword Guru Dan Thies, and he discusses keyword relevance, tools , the acquisiton of customers versus traffic, and finally spy tools Our Sponsors: * Producer Brasco: As digital professionals and business owners, we understand the critical importance of a secure and high-performing website. That's why I want to talk to you about Kinsta, a managed WordPress hosting provider that delivers exceptional speed, security, and reliability. Kinsta's infrastructure is optimized for WordPress, ensuring your site loads lightning-fast and ranks well in search results. They utilize Google Cloud's premium tier network and C3D virtual machines, which significantly boost performance. In fact, Kinsta customers often experience up to a 200% increase in site speed just by migrating to their platform. Security is paramount, and Kinsta provides enterprise-grade measures to protect your valuable data. They are one of the few WordPress hosting providers with SOC2 certification, guaranteeing the highest level of security for your website. Kinsta's MyKinsta dashboard offers a user-friendly interface with a comprehensive suite of tools to manage your site efficiently. From cache control and debugging to redirects and CDN setup, MyKinsta simplifies website administration. For SEO 101 listeners, Kinsta offers specific advantages. Their platform is optimized for speed, a crucial ranking factor in search engine algorithms. Their security measures protect your site from malware and hacking attempts that could damage your online presence. And their expert support team is available 24/7 to assist with any technical issues that may arise. If you're serious about your online presence and want a hosting provider that prioritizes performance, security, and support, I highly recommend Kinsta. Visit kinsta.com today to learn more and take advantage of their limited-time offer for new customers. That's k-i-n-s-t-a dot com. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Duration:: 32m
Broadcast on:: 13 Apr 2009
Audio Format:: other

Keyword Research with the Keyword Guru Dan Thies, and he discusses keyword relevance, tools , the acquisiton of customers versus traffic, and finally spy tools

Our Sponsors:
* Producer Brasco: As digital professionals and business owners, we understand the critical importance of a secure and high-performing website. That's why I want to talk to you about Kinsta, a managed WordPress hosting provider that delivers exceptional speed, security, and reliability. Kinsta's infrastructure is optimized for WordPress, ensuring your site loads lightning-fast and ranks well in search results. They utilize Google Cloud's premium tier network and C3D virtual machines, which significantly boost performance. In fact, Kinsta customers often experience up to a 200% increase in site speed just by migrating to their platform. Security is paramount, and Kinsta provides enterprise-grade measures to protect your valuable data. They are one of the few WordPress hosting providers with SOC2 certification, guaranteeing the highest level of security for your website. Kinsta's MyKinsta dashboard offers a user-friendly interface with a comprehensive suite of tools to manage your site efficiently. From cache control and debugging to redirects and CDN setup, MyKinsta simplifies website administration. For SEO 101 listeners, Kinsta offers specific advantages. Their platform is optimized for speed, a crucial ranking factor in search engine algorithms. Their security measures protect your site from malware and hacking attempts that could damage your online presence. And their expert support team is available 24/7 to assist with any technical issues that may arise. If you're serious about your online presence and want a hosting provider that prioritizes performance, security, and support, I highly recommend Kinsta. Visit kinsta.com today to learn more and take advantage of their limited-time offer for new customers. That's k-i-n-s-t-a dot com.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Are you tired of juggling contacts, manually following up and deals falling to the cracks? We can fix it so you never lose another lead, enabling 24/7 sales support via an AI that learns your business. Ready to close more deals with less hassle? Get a free trial of our marketing automation at the BuzzCRM.com Are you tired of juggling contacts, manually following up and deals falling to the cracks? We can fix it so you never lose another lead, enabling 24/7 sales support via an AI that learns your business. Ready to close more deals with less hassle? Get a free trial of our marketing automation at the BuzzCRM.com Free transmission of this program without the express written consent of WebmasterRadio.fm Welcome to SEO 101, your introductory course on search engine optimization. So turn on your computers, open your minds, grab your mouse and get ready to get back to the basis. Hello, and welcome to SEO 101 on WebmasterRadio.fm. This is Ross Don, CEO of Step 4th Web Marketing, and my co-host is independent SEO consultant Eric Lander. Today's show is yet another one, plus by a great guest, a man by the name of Dan Thies, who is the founder of SEO Research Lab. And although Dan does much more than just keyword research, he's widely known as the keyword guru, which is why we have him on the show today. Hi, Dan. Thanks for being here. Hi, good to be here. So what have you been up to lately? You're writing another book? Fill us in. Boy, that's a long story. I have been trying to get-- SEO Fast Start has been out for years, and I give that away. It's at SEOfaststart.com. Anybody's dying to get it right now. And I've been dying to get my pay-per-click Fast Start book out, but we've been running into all kinds of fun and games with some non-computed agreements that I have. So I know my readers are getting anxious, and I'm working real hard on getting that solved so that I can actually publish the book. So until I can actually publish that one, I'm not going to write another one. But I do have one on email marketing that'll be along at some point. Great. Well, I definitely like the site. So keep it up. It's great work. Thanks. So since a large portion of our listeners are doing yourself, let's start with the broadest question I suppose. How should the average Joe with the website conduct keyword research? I think it's important to understand some of the things that are kind of the stumbling blocks to doing keyword research well. And one of the main things that we try to drive home with people, especially when we're training with beginners and things like that, is the idea of relevance. It's easy to get into these keyword tools and see search terms that are kind of high volume, and you say, wow, well, I could be relevant for that. If you've invented-- well, gosh, I mean, I guess if you've seen the sham wow guy on the television commercials, it's a towel that will clean up anything. You might think, if you had a product like that, that unique gifts would be a great keyword. Got lots of volume, and certainly that would be a unique gift to give. But you've got to go at it from the other side and think about what's in the searchers mind, and what is their intent, what are they trying to do. And so that's the first thing, is trying to put yourself in the mind of the searcher. And there are ways to do that. You can, if you actually have an ongoing business enterprise, you can talk to your customer service people, anybody that's really interacting with customers probably has a better sense of the language that customers use, the kind of problems that they're trying to solve, and the kind of problems that they may encounter with either with your or with competing products or services. So that's a starting point, is just to understand that you've got to look for keywords that really, what you're offering would be a relevant response to that search query. Because what you're really trying to do is answer people's question, where do I find X and they're typing that into the search engine, you want to be there when you're a good answer for that especially. Okay, that's really good information, Dan, and I know a lot of our listeners are often asking us the question of what keyword research tools should they be using. And frankly, I've sort of been frustrated in my own findings on using different tools like WordTrack or keyword discovery tools like that. Do you have any tools that you sort of consider to be your standby? Well, we kind of had some radical changes in how we do some of this, especially sort of the quick look type keyword research about 10 months ago now, eight months ago, when Google released their keyword tool for AdWords with actual search volume data and things like that. And that's actually been a pretty good tool for quite a while to use because in addition to filling in the little ransom note thing or if you're logged into your AdWords account, you don't have to. But in addition to putting in keywords and checking on Google's suggestions or things like that, you can also flip it around and actually point that at a website. And so if your website isn't fully built, that's okay. You can point it at other websites that are similar, either in similar markets offering similar things or even direct competition. And you can go through and point that at the home page of the site and you'll get a whole bunch of keywords, even for stuff that's deeper into the site. And that's a great way to sort of start and get a good starting point. I don't really believe in doing a whole lot of research and trying to find the, quote, long tail specific keywords that are low volume, just it's kind of one of those things that we'd rather find out what are the highest volume search terms where they're going to be relevant in a business sense where there's some commercial intent behind it. And that would take me to another tool, which Microsoft at MSN Ad Center Labs has an online commercial intention tool. And that is a tool where you can put in keywords or point it at websites and it will give you some sense of what the percentage of people using that search term or visiting that website have of actually completing some kind of transaction. Now this is another thing that kind of leads to wishful thinking to me if the score is around 95% and I feel confident in the estimate. That's a pretty good commercial search term, 90% is okay and when you start to get down to 75%, 50%, that really indicates things that are sort of earlier on in the buying process where maybe we're still doing research about what I'm trying to figure out. What are the possible solutions to a problem? What are the possible options for things to buy or steps to take in solving a problem? And those tend not to be super hyper responsive type search terms. Maybe okay for SEO, but definitely not a great target for a pay per click. So Dan, does this mean then with Google opening a bit of their doors and giving this information away that these other pay for services aren't as really as worthwhile perhaps like keyword discovery? Well keyword discovery or word tracker I use for very specific things and the main purpose that I apply either one of them to is to look for not long tail keywords but what we call modifiers which those are sort of the extra words that tend to tag along with the search queries that people do. One of the things that we observed many years ago when we actually, I was in Seattle and we actually put people in front of computers and gave them tasks and watch what they did. One of the things that we observed that people who had used search for more than a few weeks would do is if they didn't get a satisfactory answer to a more general query they would tend to just add words to the query and so those modifiers little extra words that tag along we do an exercise and you know this is in my book and we teach it in the video training that we do in Stompernet but the idea is to take these sort of general search terms so maybe you're selling I don't know let's call it baby gifts okay and so what you're looking for then and you put that into that tool you're not looking for how much search to blame there is for baby gifts because you can get a better answer to that from Google then you can get from word tracker or keyword discovery and Google even has seasonal data now but what Google doesn't do very well is show you all of the different variations so you can kind of pick through the list and say you know twins you know or Harley Davidson or leather baby gifts okay I don't know why if somebody is dying to give a baby leather but I guess you know they look better on the back of the bike I hope they're not really writing around a motorcycle but but you know you can find those extra little words and those are words that can be really important to mix into your into your copy and things like that and you'll find some interesting discoveries there I did some work a few years ago with a company that did high-end managed web hosting and you know it was a long story about how we had to break them into into pay per click especially in ad words without buying you know fifty dollar clicks and things like that and working on some of the link building other strategies but one of the interesting things that we found out by doing this deep dive into what are the variations is that the phrase unlimited bandwidth shows up an awful lot in in search queries that are relevant for for you know web hosting businesses and what we actually did was we flipped that around then and threw unlimited bandwidth into at this time we were using a word tracker and found out that there weren't a whole lot of search terms that weren't relevant that included unlimited bandwidth so that became of a good phrase match for us to target for our pay per click advertising that had negligible competition but tended to catch a lot of people that were looking for services that this company could offer and so we you know we took them to a landing page where it said are you tired of limitations you know there's no limitations on bandwidth and blah blah blah I can't remember the copy but that's not really relevant but that's those tools are still good for things like that you know there there's a the other side of it which word tracker has a new system and I believe it's out we've been using the beta since you know like seven eight months ago so I'm not really sure if it's actually been released but I think it is but one of the other things too is is to gather data about the keywords besides search volume and Google doesn't give you things like you know how many links to the does the average of the top ten sites have and things like that and they don't help you map out the level of competition and things like that and word trackers tool helps you do that it's kind of taken a little bit of the the joy out of what we were doing with SEO research labs because we had a sort of our own tool that that did that and word tracker is starting to sort of I won't say encroach because I'm dying to stop maintaining that application but but they are starting to sort of place what was unique about the keyword reporting that we do so that's good news for us because we don't have to be in the software business but it does kind of also make it so that anyone who's doing their own keyword research can get that kind of data themselves. So the just one sec here the that that new form of word tracker so is it so you don't know they're not it's available I'm just like is this word tracker or keyword discovery I got lost there it's a word tracker and we're tracking and I'm gonna go ahead and see if I can figure out what they have but but it's it's I'll just log in and see if I can see it but but what it does is it has a lot of different metrics for competition and things like that I believe it's in the keyword researcher now a lot of that's been deployed which is one of the tools that you get when you log in to your word tracker account it's not in the free stuff but but it does have but it does have some of that in there but there's a whole lot more coming and you know we get to see that kind of stuff as as they develop it and I really think that by the end of this year word tracker will sort of re-establish themselves as the leader in the space as a keyword research tool good to know thank you so we're gonna take a quick break and when we get back we're gonna touch on essentially you know finding the customers and really making the proper keywords work for you SEO 101 will be back right after recess Affiliate Convention 2009 Denver free for all affiliates and all the information you need to know to grow your business June 18th and 19th for more information about registration and sponsorship visit www.affiliateconvention.com SEOSeq.com is your one stop site for everything SEO from search and marketing to pay for click management SEOSeq.com delivers high quality SEO services and affordable prices SEOSeq.com can help you with SEO analysis month and reports title and meta tag optimization email support and so much more want to keep your SEO in house let our professional trainers teach SEO to your staff get a free quote and a free competitive analysis today at SEOSeq.com Do you consider yourself a super affiliate then listen up one of the most trusted names in affiliate marketing since 2003 XY7.com 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and on time offshoring.com Join marketing to women expert Maria Rietan as she chats with those in the know so your business can grow purse strings Tuesdays at 3 p.m. Eastern noon Pacific or on demand anytime inside the advertising channel only on webmaster radio dot FM okay class take your seats and no talking recess is over and SEO 101 is back in session only on webmaster radio dot FM welcome back to SEO 101 on webmaster radio dot FM with Eric Glender independent SEO and myself Ross Dunn CEO of Step 4th Web Marketing Inc before the break we were discussing a word tracker in fact about keywords and what tools to use and now I believe Eric's got a question for our guest Dan Thies thanks again Dan for being here and talking keyword research with us one of the things that you touched on before we took break that I think is really important for our listeners to understand is that you believe in sort of this mentality where you want to target the acquisition of customers versus traffic and in particular at least in some of the things that I've read and it's you know with what you've written out there you don't really want people to be blinded by this year search volume as much as you are the productivity of particular search terms is that true yeah the well you know volume is obviously important I mean it's at a certain point it's not worth putting a whole lot of effort into something that people search for once a month that's kind of the you know the fallacy of you know there's always this sort of ongoing concept of the long tail that we don't really define very well what we're talking about and the long tail is you know it's from a book that wasn't really about search but people have kind of spun it around about that and basically the idea is that the highest volume search terms you know the bulk of search is really represented in a small set of the keywords that happen and the rest you know maybe 80-90% even is in search terms that are maybe only you know typed in a few times a month I believe Google has said that you know half their searches in a given month are one-offs in that month that they're gonna see them one time and maybe never ever see them again in the history of the earth so that's there's a lot of volume there but you can't go and you know build a web page to target a nine word phrase that's gonna get used once you kind of have to attack those three different methods so the volume is important but the more important thing is you're trying to find your customer and what we came up with many years ago at SEO research labs was a concept called weighted popularity and the idea is to take the number of searches that are out there and to figure out it just estimate what percentage of the people using a given search term are going to be happy with what you have are gonna be interested in your offer and when you do that and do a reasonable assessment and we have some methods to do that that again it's you know it's in my book but you can actually take and sort of take all the different variations and analyze those and figure out you know maybe 10% maybe 20% maybe 30% of the people using a search term are going to be interested in what you have to offer and so you multiply that by the number of searches and that's the number of targeted searches that's the number of searches that are actually going to be shown to people that might become your customer and when you do that the the more generic kind of general search terms don't get quite so attractive you know for example one time we did a detailed analysis for an interior design firm and they wanted to be number one for interior design well what we came up with as our best estimate was that about 7% of people searching for that would actually be interested in an interior design firm and that was our optimistic assessment and when they actually went and bought the traffic and you know through some landing pages underneath it um well it was about that bad so um so they decided to refocus you know their escrow efforts on two things like interior designer interior designers interior design firm interior design consulting consultant all that stuff these things have lower volume but again it sort of qualifies the the that visitor as a prospect for what you do and um and that's really important I mean it I you know can run a six figure a year business on 180 visitors a day um in in the keyword research business and so so you know you don't have to necessarily have super high volume to have a pretty good business and I think then you just touched on something there that I kind of wanted to bring up and get your opinion of and that is using different keyword strategies for paper click or paid search advertising versus organic search um in short because I know this is quite a a big topic how would somebody let's say who's out there sort of managing search maybe for an in-house company or maybe for a small provider how would their techniques towards keyword research differ for SEO versus PPC well there's one thing about paper click and there's there's sort of two ways that people go about doing the research and the strategy and one is sort of what I call landing page first which is you decided you're going to throw throw some traffic at a page and often they do the home page or something like that but you come up with this huge list of keywords and you come up with a very generic ad and you throw all those keywords in a in an ad campaign and you in the idea is you're going to see which ones convert see which ones work but with a generic ad and and a big list of keywords you really didn't give yourself a chance of converting um what I prefer to do is be very strategic uh come up with a very short list of our best prospects for profitable keywords based on you know there's some volume we're very relevant we've got a good offer there's um reasonably high commercial intent and then we want to write an ad that is very specific for each keyword in fact a set of ads we'll do testing and test some different landing pages for those things but we like to attack it one keyword at a time initially one keyword exact match on google adwords standard match on yahoo if you have to go there but we'd prefer to test things on adwords first because they give you the most control with the exact match and the point of that is that if you can't get profitable on one exact search query where you know exactly what they typed in how are you going to get profitable on some giant long list of keywords and so you want to kind of start start smaller and um i've actually got a video up uh we call this the adwords triangulation method um kind of came up with that name later because we were triangulating but it's so that you can call it the google atm um and i am going to actually have a page of links up uh when you know folks are listening to this um at seofastar.com/seo101 so all the links that i've dropped all the different tools i've mentioned there'll be links there so people can go get them but that's really the the the difference with with seo you can target a broader range i mean you're gonna probably have a list of 50 or 100 keywords that you're going to go for fairly early on in a campaign and that's really just a matter of mapping those on the right pages on your site and getting things going with paper click you have to be more strategic and if you start slower you learn some things about the types of offers and types of headlines that get people to respond and so you can actually you know leverage that as you expand to larger groups of keywords but i know people running you know multi-million dollar businesses off of one exact match keyword adwords so um you don't have to necessarily go long and deep in keyword strategy in fact with adwords they've made it really hard to do that uh recently low volume keywords tend to just have the ads shut off anymore um so one of the things that comes up a lot with uh when i when we get a new client or something and they come in and they say all right i've got a new website i'd like to go for um let's go for the absurd here cars i want to be found under cars so someone has a really lofty goal um if someone comes to you and says that to you what do you say i mean right off the bat my perception is okay let's let's take a step back here and focus on some other phrases and and make that the ultimate goal but it depends if uh if you know there's vhix.com there's cars.com what if vhix.com comes to you and says hey we've just built this really cool site where you know you can do the 360 degree view and we've got all this data on all these different cars and these cool comparison tools if they came to me i'd say yeah let's go for cars um you know if if Fred's um you know used pickup shop in podunk comes to me and wants to be number one for cars i'm going to say Fred your website is not a good answer for that query and it never will be um but um so part of it is answered by by relevance and but i think that if if the site is of sufficient quality if it really is a player if it really deserves to be there i think you can get it there and i don't think it takes that long i mean you know i would say you know six months to be in the game and um you know longer you know certainly it's going to require some real marketing and you know public relations and all kinds of stuff not just you know quote just seo um you know it's really hard to do anything competitive with quote just seo you know good luck you stuff the keyword in the title tag now what but um but you know if you've really got something good it's easy to create buzz um in the age of the internet where there's instant communication and you know you can whip the market up into a frenzy and you can build a lot of links really fast and you can get a lot of traffic without seo i mean for for most of the folks that i work with that are really doing marketing well you know seo is somewhere between five and fifteen percent of the traffic even if they're completely dominant uh in search so um you know most of the time we can buy more profits from paper click than we'll ever get for free from organic even if organic was really free excellent thank you um so we're going to take a quick break and when we come back we're going to touch on a favorite topic of uh dance and that's spy tools seo 101 is now on iTunes write us a review and tell us how much you love us seo 101 will be back right after recess your company's website sucks you know it everybody knows it so get it to do list to fix it on target a subscription service from future now and brian eisenberg monitors your website 24/7 analyzing the actions of every potential customer it gives you a to-do list it tells you exactly what to fix and how to fix it so that more of your visitors do what you need them to do on target pricing starts at one thousand dollars a month see more at futurenowate.com/ontarget friend finder 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and write this down the keywords are the keywords they don't change based on what your competitors are trying to do they don't change based on what your competitors are actually doing they don't change based on what some spy tool that's got some fraction of a fraction of a percent of of the data that the actual search data um is telling you let me tell you how these spy tools work for the most part most of them work like this a user goes to the spy tool and types in a keyword the spy tool then goes and fetches the search results and anyone that's showing up on that search result is now in their database tag matching that keyword that's not real searchers that's seos and paper click and search marketers trying to figure out what the competitors are doing what you do by typing all of your keywords into those things is make sure that your competitors can find you uh for the keywords that you're using but really it doesn't matter what your competitors are or aren't doing or aren't trying to do because with things like the google keyword tool with um you know if you want to get into really expansive keyword research and and really go broad and in you know leave no stone unturned there's tools like niche watch and uh theme zoom you know i don't necessarily buy the religion on you know how to do seo from these guys but i'll certainly buy their tools because their tools kick butt and they let you do brainstorming um on a scale that isn't possible with just your brain added a speed uh that you know we used to spend a couple hours prepping before we did every keyword report and the reason why we haven't had to raise the price on a keyword research report in like five years uh even though the cost of you know people's time um as these people you know have been around for years and become more expert has gone up is because the tools have gotten better to be able to do brainstorming and and come up with all these related concepts and things like that but um with all the tools that are out there with with google with word tracker with keyword discovery theme zoom niche watch all these cool tools um you can figure out what the keywords ought to be you can figure out exactly what keywords are out there as a possibility for you in your market and i don't know what a spy tool would add to that they don't accurately tell you what the pay per click bids are all they do is go and do the same thing you could do which is go ask adwords how much they would charge you and then you can figure based on my experience with adwords that you'll get twice as much traffic for half the price if you do a decent job and so what good are these tools um i don't know i mean there's my apparently it's a good business model but um i i've never found a use for them in any any work that i've done with any student or client ever so that was my rant now i i can share a lot of the sentiments too i mean i was with an organization before that used uh hit wise subscriptions with oh i think it's probably the epitome of of what one of those tools would be i mean you effectively pay tens of thousands of dollars a month for access to a database that tells you what common sense what otherwise tell you you're basically renting their user panel for about a buck a person per month for your share of their data exactly you just you know continue to willingly contribute as you said to to what they're kind of throwing back to other people so so in in that light in in looking at how we can kind of approach keyword research on a more affordable and a more realistic and productive scale if you were to leave it because we kind of have to wrap up here in the interest of time if you were to leave with maybe three to five tips for anyone who's really trying to get started with keyword research without wasting their time or wasting their money uh what what kind of things should people look to be doing definitely use that google adwords keyword tool pointed at websites and um if you want to get real um search volume data you have to select the exact match option uh that's one of those things that people uh uh get confused by all the time because it's really it's it's a tool for advertisers to show them how many ad impressions are there so that's important understand use the exact match on the google keyword tool and that will get you pretty much everything you need except for sort of the the modifiers the long tail stuff and for that you've got free uh word tracker and free keyword discovery tools if if you don't have the the means if you don't do it often enough to afford the paid tools uh to help you fill in the gaps on modifiers thank you very much Dan that was excellent uh i was just saying to eric on instant message we're gonna have to get back on because I know when we're on our game we're gonna have even more questions for you but i think we both be sick this weekend so we're a bit off but uh excellent answers and it's been a really good interview um on behalf of myself Ross Dunn CEO of step 4th web marketing and eric lander independent SEO thanks for joining us today on seo 101 on remraster radio.fm