-Yes, everything's in the American mind, making comprehensive science, I don't know. I just wanted to get a third of them. All right, I'm going to finish this fruit. I kind of said it so that you guys would keep talking. -Oh, no. -I used an opportunity to watch. -Oh, no. -Turn my camera off. -Hello, welcome to .zip, a podcast about big games and small packages. My name is AJ. -My name is Kim. -And I'm Chase. Today, we're here on the podcast talking about Greece, a video game that is titled After the Spanish Word for Grey. -Uh-huh. -What's going on gamers, how are we doing? -I just adjust a table set because I think the energy might be a little wild today because of the time in which we are recording. We are, it is Sunday, June 9th, 2024, in 12 minutes, Xbox is going to have their summer showcase and then there's the Call of Duty 6 one after that or whatever. But Saturday and Friday of this week have been absolute gauntlets of games going, "Oh, cool. Ooh, that's fun. I'll get that one." So, I know Kim and I have absolutely destroyed our desktops with shortcuts for demos. Chase, I don't know what your vibe is on that right now. -Yeah, I've got sort of a modest amount of demos compared to the two of you, but still littering my desktop with these things. -Yeah. -It's been a good weekend. I feel like the, I don't know if y'all were like paying attention to games back in like the, I don't know, kind of mid-2000s when like E3 was a big, big deal. But like there was definitely an excitement around that time and like demos didn't really play into that. It was just like watching coverage of E3 and being like, "Ooh, that looks neat." And largely that was around very big and established companies at the time. -Yes, yeah. -Like, you know, a bunch of big EA would have like a hundred games or whatever. That's an exaggeration, but like a lot of games and that's like not really the case anymore. This has obviously been covered quite a bit already, but like, you know, the industry is pushing more towards like one huge gigantic game that comes out every seven years and it's behind trends by like four years. -Yes. -And so like the big huge showcases from very big and established companies, minus maybe Nintendo, typically are like, at least right now I'm kind of like lukewarm on, but whenever there are these days where it's just a barrage of like, "Hey, here's a indie developer. This game is made by like one person and it looks very good, and it's going to change your life." -Yes. I think that there's something special about that and I feel like that's kind of carrying the energy of what E3 used to be for me of like, "Look at all these amazing things." And yeah, maybe the hit rate's not going to be amazing, right? Like, some of these might not be great when they actually come out, but like a lot of them are pretty good and I'm pretty excited for a lot of it. So, yeah. The indie space is really cool right now, I'm very excited for a lot of the stuff. -Yeah. If you want to hear a more in-depth conversation about the Summer Games Fest showcases, go back about three weeks in your podcast feed and listen to the Ram episode that we're going to record right after this one. -Yes. -But, you know, Jase, I think you made very good points and I'm very excited for all the indies that are coming out this year, which is upsetting so many of them said 2024. I was like, I was texting Kim yesterday, I was like, "Do we have six months left? We can't have this many games." I have to sleep, gamers. -Yes. -Well, no. -Anyway, the games. -Oh, yes. -Yes, one of the games. -That was sort of previewed at this not E3, was Neva, which is from Nomada Studio, the creators of Greece, the game that we are talking about today. -Wow, Kim. Doing my job for me. Great segue. Thank you so much. But, yeah, I mean, Kim, you already said it, Greece came out 2018 developed by Nomada Studios, published by Devolver Digital, and then their upcoming game Neva looks devastating. -Yes. -But, Kim, what is Greece? -Greece is a puzzle platformer. In the most literal sort of sense, it is about a girl who suffers a tragedy and must restore color to the world and rediscover her voice. That is literally what happens on screen, but this is a sort of abstract kind of metaphorical story. It has no dialogue, but very clear themes centered around sort of overcoming grief. The art style is this phenomenally beautiful sort of watercolor style. The sort of lead artist on this was a guy named Conrad Rosette. I don't know if it's Rosette or Rosette. His art is really, really cool. If you're a fan of the art in Greece, you should definitely check out some of his work. He sells prints. I have bought some. And it is also backed by a gorgeous soundtrack by a composer called Berlinist. -Yes. -And all of that creates this very kind of introspective, emotionally moving journey. But I think one thing. I played this game back when it came out, which I don't know, what was it? -2018. -2018. So, yeah. I played this back when it came out and a thing that I had sort of forgotten that in addition to being very beautiful to play and a beautiful story, it is also a very good puzzle platformer, I think. Not too complicated in its puzzles, but as you go, the character gains different abilities. Like this little sprite with big black dress on that sort of can turn into different things that give her different abilities. For example, the first one you get is she can turn into like a big square. That turns her basically into like a block of stone. So, you know, that comes into play in different ways. And those abilities get used throughout the rest of the journey in a way that towards the end kind of culminates in this pretty sophisticated like puzzle platforming experience. -Mm-hmm. -Yeah, I had just sort of forgotten how good the mechanics were because my memory of this was like the art and the music and the story. It is just all around such a good game. -Yeah. -Yeah. This was my first time playing it after hearing about it for literally six years. -That's also my experience. -Yeah. Because, I mean, Kim specifically, I remember you really loving Greece, and I also really remember you really loving control two games that I have still, like in Greece, I finished now, but control a game I have started twice and not finished, but I'm like, man, this game is really good, apparently. -Yeah. -Not apparently. I also had a great time playing it. Whatever. Doesn't matter. So, but that was, that was, it's interesting to hear your experience remembering the game being so similar to my experience starting the game for the first time because immediately it's like, hey, this is beautiful, this sounds amazing. Like, it feels like, I've written in my notes, it feels like I'm playing a piece of art, like it just feels like I'm looking at like a painting and I'm like interacting with the painting, especially in those early stages. There's not, like the platforming is not so intense that you're basically just like moving left and right and maybe jumping every once in a while, so like the world is kind of just forming around you as you're moving, which is just really, oh my God, it's so good. And then as it goes on, it's like, oh, the platforming in this game is like actually really good and like fun and feels great. I personally did have, I think for myself, I wanted the game to stay more like it was in the beginning and I was getting toward the end and the more the platforming puzzles were getting more like complicated and precise, I was like, I wish there was no fail state for these puzzles in some ways, which I understand is not what the game is trying to do. And so that's like a totally unfair thing to leverage against it, but I'm just personally that is what I was feeling. But you know, overcoming those, but like they're not complicated puzzles, even even the more complicated ones toward the end, but they really, really do work in such, such incredible ways. In this case, you said you had also heard about this game for six years and not played it. Yeah, it was like, for a while, I feel like this was like kind of the face of like indie games that are saying something. Yes. And I was, I don't know, part of me was just like, yeah, it's good, like I don't need to play it. I already know that it's good. Yeah. Yep. But obviously like, you know, it's a different experience to actually like go through it and play it. The fail state thing is interesting because I know that they had said it like the developers had said that they are building this game without fail states, right? Yeah, I guess that's like there's the fail state doesn't like, you don't die and restart. It's just like, I have to walk back up to this platform. Correct. Yeah. But it's a really interesting thing. Like I have heard from people who it was, I think in 2018, I had had a handful of friends who were going to PAX West and were seeing this game and they're really into it. And I think that this game has a, at least visually and especially with the not fail states, a good way to like pull people in who might not be super into other games. And I know that like sometimes that gets, I don't know, gets a bad rap sometimes from capital G gamers who are like, it's not hard or whatever. Yes. Yeah. That the lack of challenge can make it not a good game, but like it's just so unclear when or like that is so clearly not the case when you're playing this because like, yes, it's still really, really good. And I don't think failure in this game would have added much at all. Totally. Yeah. We didn't need like a bonfire or anything to like what we saw at your point. I, 2018 was sort of early on when I was first like really getting into video games. This is one of the first games that I sort of played beyond the, you know, first few games that that like got me out of my comfort zone. And yeah, the fact that it was so approachable and you know, I remember seeing kind of trailers for this game and thinking like, oh, video games can be this shit like that's incredible. And so like like that, this was very much like a formative game for me and like getting my, my foot in the door and making this a hobby that I'm really, you know, into now enough to have hosted two video game podcasts. So yeah, I like, I think it is like shit, like this is important. And it is, I love that there is such a like breadth of games that something like this can, can get made and have the praise that it had. And yeah, like by, by the end, platforming challenges are like actually challenging. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I, you know, I sort of agree with you, AJ, I don't know if they had to be quite as difficult as they are at the end. I remember sort of the first time I played it being kind of frustrated. And also like the first time I played it, it was on Switch and I was like, I had it up on like, I had the Switch docked and was on my TV screen and there were definitely like things that I was missing because I was not like as close to the screen as I should have been essentially there are so because there's like no dialogue in this game, nothing like that. There are very good and subtle like visual and audio cues about things, but if you're not actually like close enough to it or have headphones in, it's hard, it can be easy to miss those. And so I think it's, it's very well done in terms of that like non-verbal kind of storytelling and hinting and you just, I think it's, don't, don't play it docked or, or, or, you know, I think it's best played with, with headphones and, you know, making sure that you can see the details on the screen, especially because they're, they play with like perspective, not perspective, but like the camera will zoom in and out to sort of show you different things. And sometimes your little dude is like kind of small on the screen. Yes. Yeah. It's, it's really interesting. I, I played this game on, it's on Game Pass at time of recording. So I played it on my television and we've recently rearranged like a couple of months ago. We rearranged our living room. So our TV is like a little farther away than you would want a TV normally. And so there were moments where I'm like, Oh my God, I can't see anything. And it's really interesting here. And you say like, Oh, you should play this handheld. So you can be close to the screen. I was like, Oh, I need to play this on like a, a movie theater, so I can see all the details. But I do feel like those are the two extremes. You like existing in the middle space is like you're missing out on some of the details are like losing your guy every once in a while. That's very funny. I do think what they do with the like environmental cues and like the audio cues and stuff is like very, very good. And, and it kind of works like pretty seamlessly. Like the, the, the first thing that you see, or the first like the first obstacle, obstacle you encounter is like the heavy wind, right? And they like you get into this area and there are just like little windmills just like standing, like in the background, like, Oh, this is cool set dressing. And then they start spinning and I'm like, Oh, what's going on? And then they start spinning really fast and the music picks up and you blow back. I'm like, Oh, whoa, that was like, like that moment. And there's so many moments like that throughout the whole game. They're like, Oh, I wonder how this is going to. And from from that moment on, I'm like, Oh, I wonder how this is going to incorporate into whatever is about to happen next. The use of sound there is really cool too with like the kind of music changing to be frightening. Yes. Like we'll get into this, but you know, the metaphor is right there. It's right in front of you. Yeah, but I like I appreciate that. And I don't know. I think that there, yeah, there use of sound there to kind of like emphasize the terror that the character is feeling is really effective and like affected me as well. While we're still in in general space, I do think talking about like the metaphor being right in front of you in some ways is like I had read a couple of articles after I finished the game. I read Charlie Hall's Greece is about the fear we live with and finding a voice to defeat it, and I also read Vicki Blake's Eurogamer review and an evocative ethereal experience you don't want to miss. And in the Eurogamer review, Vicki said the dress that Greece wears is a manifestation of sorrow. Wow. And I think just like having that as like the general thing, I think is good. I definitely want to get into the specifics of it when we get into this boiler section. But I do think it is really, really cool how they use the dress to express the various like feelings or like stages of, you know, grief or loss or fear or whatever kind of negative emotion you want to attribute to it. It's really good. I have a lot of thoughts throughout this game because of the dress, but also just because of just like the vibes, I thought about journey a lot while playing this game. Yeah, for sure. Kim, I don't have you played journey? No. It's what I would describe more as an experience than like a quote unquote game because you're like basically playing through this art piece. There are moments where you have to like jump around and stuff, but there's no like jumping from platform to platform or anything and there's just like, you're kind of just like skating around and whatnot. But and it was really interesting to then come up against, not come up against, it was interesting to run into the platforming puzzles and stuff in this game because I was expecting it to be more like journey. And I think that's a lot of where my semi frustration with some of the later game puzzles came with because I was like, I just want this to be journey. But journey is journey and this game is this game, so, you know, it's unfair. But I don't know. It's just, it's just like really, really cool to, I think journey came out in 2011, but it's just cool to see like this as a stepping stone, 2012. Okay. It was interesting to see journey as like a stepping stone to this game in 2018 and it makes me curious to see, you know, the trends, ebb and flow and stuff. And I'm curious to see if we will have another like flowy garment running around an art piece with a good soundtrack game in the next couple of years. When I was like studying games in 2013, 2014, journey was like the thing. Yeah. That was like really, really popular. I think just because like there had been indie games and like kind of ethereal games prior to that, but a lot of them were like mechanical advances, right? So like something like braid or binding of Isaac or like, or super meat boy, we're all very like mechanical video games, but journey was like, no, that is not the thing we are doing. And I feel like it was wildly influential for people who were maybe considering getting into making games and were like, what if I don't want to make Call of Duty? Like, is there another thing that I could do? And I think journey was like a perfect little encapsulation of that. There's a there's an interview with Roger Mendoza and Adrian Cuevas from the folks who made Greece talking about on games, industry.biz. There's this interview with them where they say specifically like, yes, journey was a thing that like heavily, heavily influenced this game. They had mentioned that and then also Ori in the Blind Forest, which I think really makes sense in the same way that Ori kind of plays with scale sometimes where you can be very close in, or, you know, if it's a big set piece, it'll pull way out and you can just like, you're supposed to focus on kind of the landscape that's in front of you instead of being like really pulled in on the character or whatever. I always love it when games kind of play with scale and perspective like that to make you feel something. I think it can be really, really, yeah, effective just because like for so long games were in it. It had the camera in exactly the same position all the time. So when something pulls way out or way in, it's suddenly like, oh, I'm supposed to feel something else now. It's cool. Unless, Kim, you have anything else to say about general thoughts here, I think bringing up the use of mechanics in these other games is a good segue into some of the spoiler stuff I want to talk about in the way that this game does use mechanics. Yeah, let's get into it. So let's talk about a metaphor. Let's talk about a metaphor. We'll be right back. So mechanics, I think, in this game, like you said, Chase, it's this isn't using mechanics in the same way that like super meet boy or like braid or something was as like a, wow, look at this new thing we're doing with mechanics. But I do think they use various mechanics to tell the story. And just the dress really is kind of this, you know, being being the quote manifestation of sorrow, you know, you are, there are obstacles that you have to overcome. And the way you overcome them is kind of embracing your feelings or like embracing your sorrow, so to speak. And so like when the wind is blowing, you know, you're getting blown back and whatever, but then she learns to, you know, she uses the weight of her sorrow to stop her from blowing away, which is so good. I didn't like clock that stuff really until I finished the game and read that article. And I was like, oh, I see it all now. I was like, see the matrix. But there's that. And then the using the same wins that we're an obstacle in the beginning to like then carry you further with the double jump and then, yes, you know, instead of the water being an obstacle, letting it kind of just like take you where it will and just kind of like letting go of control and et cetera. That one's a little looser because you do kind of just like gain full control over the water. I think the metaphor is there, but yeah, I just think it's just like it's it's it's so genius to have that be how we are kind of like moving through the stages here because they're like you said, Kim, there's no dialogue. There's like minimal cutscene stuff happening. Mm hmm. It's just like the the dress is like a really good thing in this game. I really like it. I'm curious if y'all discovered any of the secrets corresponding to the five stages of grief. Just like the circle things or like. Yeah. Yeah. Just the the things that say denial, bargaining, anger or no, I didn't. Yeah. I must not have. Yeah. So there are there are little like secret achievements, I guess you can get that there's some that are like just like little, you know, like white dot kind of things that if you get all of those, you get a secret cutscene, which we can talk about later. But there's also ones that are there's just five of them throughout the different stages that that are the names of the five stages of grief. And so those moments are supposed to sort of correspond to to those different stages of, you know, what the character is going through. The first stage is denial. Right. Yeah. So so yeah, I don't I guess that one is probably denial, but but yeah, so I think that that also ties into this idea of like using the dress, which blackness in general, the color black is used to, to sort of denote the feeling of grief in this game. Color is very important. Sort of each phase you are restoring another color to the world. I guess we should start with like what happens at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is like not a huge, I think it's like in all of the trailers for this game and stuff. So it's not like this had to be in the spoiler section, but the character is is standing in the palm of this giant statue of a woman singing and suddenly loses her voice. The statue crumbles all of the colors, like drained from the world and she sort of set out on her journey. And so you're trying to restore color to the world, I forget which point I was making at the beginning that led me to to explain this from the start. I think you were emphasizing the point of the colors in the world and then your journey to restore them. Yeah. And I remember now I was talking about how the color black is associated with this feeling of grief that sort of manifests as these terrifying creatures that sort of hunt you throughout the latter stages of some of these levels. It is interesting because at some point you do actually, just as you do with the dress, you start to use those creatures to keep moving forward. There's a part where like one of them is this like giant bird and it screeches at you and causes winds where you have to like use your, your like, I am a big block of square block ability to, to, you know, stop yourself from being blown away. But after a while, you start using those winds just, just as you did previously in the level, start using those winds to, to navigate. And so it does feel very much like, it's, it feels similar to like themes of, it's less where it's, okay, how do I, how do I take this, this difficult emotion or this difficult thing that I'm going through and figure out how to work with it as, as part of my life? Because I think it's also interesting that like the color black is, is all color, right? Just sort of like mushed together. Yeah, there's a lot of fun metaphors in this game. I think you could probably talk about it forever and find new interesting things. Most of the avenues with which you can look at the game kind of lead you back to the same interpretation that it's, it's presenting you, which is cool, like I, there is a little while where games I think were not judged, but like there was a reaction to want to push games as narrative closer to the mechanics of it. I think a lot of that was a response to the like ludo narrative dissonance conversation in the early 2010s of like, why do, why does Nathan Drake shoot a bunch of people? And like, he's concerned about one person dying later in the game, like, what is that? Which I, you know, it's standing in 2024. I do agree that like, I don't know if I need that to be totally in line, you know, like it can be Indiana Jones. Okay, but I think that there is something to be said for coupling a game's story and its mechanics, like right next to each other, like the concept, I can't say in practice it's perfect, but the concept of LA Noir being like, the story is about uncovering secrets and like kind of digging around and rooting around in the dark to figure out like what's happening. And mechanics also being that with like trying to read people and figure out what secrets they have, right, like, that's, that's cool, that's cool that you can have both things happening at the same time. And I think this is probably a better example of that of pretty much everything you're doing can be interpreted along with the narrative, right, like they're not out of whack with one another of when she's getting pushed back by the wind, it's like, well, she's experiencing some kind of grief, right, and it's kind of kicking our ass and she doesn't have like some kind of coping mechanism to, you know, win these like winds of sadness or grief or whatever, try to push her over, she doesn't have something to kind of like lock her heels in place and, and stick around. And so like, it's cool when you do get that because even without the game giving you like a story beat of now in real life, the allegory is that Grease has a cool new tactic from her therapist that will allow her to feel grief better. No, it's like you just, you kind of into it that you feel the power of what pressing X to kind of like lock yourself in place feels like. Yeah. And yeah, I really appreciate that it's, it's a hard thing to do to, to just rely on feeling in a game. And I think like it's smart that they only did it or that they did it with like no words in this game. And they made the game itself fairly straightforward so that like you can really focus on what exactly something is saying, even if it's not, you know, you don't get a textbook definition, like you can interpret it your own way. And it'll probably be pretty close to what, you know, the, the intended experiences and even the fact that like, God, it's so good. The more I think about this game, the more I'm like, wow, this is, this is a really good, like they did a really great job making this game. But just like Jay's hearing you talk about like, Oh, well, now I have a new coping mechanism and I, you know, I can, I can withstand the winds. There are moments where you're running through the winds where like you put yourself into a cave that the caves that the winds can't reach. And like you're not being affected by the winds, but you're also not moving. And I think that also that little moment also is an allegory for like, Oh, well, if I just stay in bed all the time, like, I don't have to move at all, I'll feel great. But then getting the, getting the box. And then, you know, using the box at first to like stop yourself from moving and then realizing that the winds aren't stopping and you can move in the box form, you just move like much slower and much heavier. It's just like, Hey, this is so real and so good. It's unbelievable. The way that they create that feeling of heaviness to with like both the visuals and the sound is really incredible. I also, I don't think when I played this, I had like controller rumble enabled or maybe it wasn't like a thing. But, but yeah, that is also really, really effective that like tactile, tactile element for the storytelling of this game. So if you, if you have a controller with that capability, I highly recommend that too. Because it really just adds to it's, it's, I think it's really incredible. The way that they manage to combine all of these different things to create an abstract feeling that feels like the emotional process of going through it. Right. Like it's, it's really remarkable. It's true because you can really feel like how heavy she feels in that moment. And like how kind of like sturdy your character now feels after getting like tossed around on the wind. Yeah. Not to mention like her character design is just like her legs are like little sticks in person. Yeah. Yeah. So like to suddenly have kind of a sturdy build is like, this feels different than it did before. Right. And you can kind of feel the, the, I don't know if resistance is the right word from her, but like kind of the power from her, which is a cool thing to feel in that moment, especially because like, you know, the first couple moments of the game when you get control, you're barely able to move at all. She's just kind of like dragging herself forward. Right. And when you try to jump, you just kind of collapse. And so to get any power over that is suddenly like very moving, I guess, like it's, it, it feels different. You can feel the contrast and how she started. Yeah. So yeah, you, you run into the, the, the big bird monster. So I guess first you free like a bunch of little birds or like bats or whatever they're supposed to be. Yeah. And then they turn into the big bird. Yeah. Well, so that, that is in a section where you learn that if you jump and then trigger your big block effect, you can smash things. That happens if you, if you, you basically get like dropped into this area that is just full of, you know, ceramic pots or whatever that are fun to smash. So worth noting throughout the game, you see statues of the same woman that you saw at the beginning in sort of like various states of emotional distress, which is very powerful. Yeah. But you're, you're in this area. And I think this might be the part that corresponds to anger, I don't remember. But like you, as you smash all of those things, you're actually creating that like dark energy, right? And it's, it is sort of a symbol of like going through something and coping with it in, in a sort of destructive, either outwardly or inwardly destructive way. And like what that creates sort of within you. And so, yeah, so you basically create this, you know, this monster and are, are trying to outrun it for the rest of the game. And so interesting, my, my sort of interpretation with a lot of the like monster stuff is that it was maybe there and she's just kind of letting herself experience some of the grief. Like, every time she, you know, gets a new color in the game, it's right after she's being held in the palm of this like statue. And so like in my mind, this is somebody who is maybe running from that feeling at all. And then every now and then kind of lets herself feel it. And then eventually like once she's fully there with like, hey, I'm maybe not comfortable, but I'm approaching feeling that it is overwhelming and damn near antagonistic to her, you know, the, I heard fairly recently that somebody said this is not a new quote at all, but like somebody saying that like grief is love without any direction, like it's just like love with nowhere to go, right? And that kind of feels similar here of like, what do I do with this angsty, horrible feeling? And a lot of the time, the answer to that is, you know, you should hold it. But for most of the game, you were just running from this thing that looks terrifying, right? Yeah. That's really effective for me. I think that really works. Yeah. The fact that that is the only way that you can get back to the statue every time is so, so powerful and reminded me of our first episode, a birth of saying when somebody dies, they become an object. Yes. Yeah. In this case, when somebody dies, they become a star. When somebody leaves your life in some way, they become a statue in your mind. Yeah. I think the, these sort of like monster sequences of being like chased by this thing, it does sort of mirror the way that like grief is not a linear process. It's not like I am at my peak of grief and slowly it goes down. It comes in waves, right? So they use the like kind of narrative arc of like rising and falling action in each level to convey that. And you know, not to skip too far ahead, but the game sort of comes to an end when she is fully overtaken by the like darkness. And only then does the statue sort of start to sing with her and that sort of like is the end of the game. You can sort of interpret that as like a Deus Ex Machina or perhaps like she had to feel it all all in once like let it overcome her in order to overcome it. Yeah. I think that that arc of, of, you know, the grief coming and then coming back to this memory and then the grief coming again, like every time the grief comes, it is more and more intense. And yeah, I think that's all it is just like following the arc of like every time I think about this person. I'm thinking maybe the grief will be gone and then it comes back and it sucks. And then until you're like fully, yeah, like you said, until you're fully enveloped then the memory of that person is able to kind of be more than just a like a static thing in your mind. And you can be more than just pain too. Yes. Yeah. And you can remember the moments before your final moments with them, you know, like in the final moments, and I guess in the beginning of the game, you're technically seeing the final moment of like she's singing, but the statue is not. Yeah. But then when she is singing and then later on, the statue begins to sing. I imagine that is like, I, or I interpret that as like an earlier memory of like when I was with this person and we were both singing, you know, stuff like that. Yeah. I think it's really effective that like she doesn't look like she is struggling super hard against it at the end, like she's just she keeps singing too. That's it. Yeah. Like that's the thing. She's doing the thing that at the, I don't know if it's supposed to be literally interpreted as singing in real life, but like she's doing the thing that has reminded her of this person throughout the whole game of like, here's the thing that I lost connection with and wasn't able to do for a long time. But I'm just going to do that and let myself feel it and have that be the way through. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to that point about, you know, is the singing like literal or just part of the metaphor, I do think that there's an alternative or maybe not alternative, but like secondary interpretation of this game as being about kind of the power of art. Yeah. And also community maybe, like I, this is something I was thinking about as I was going on where like you, as you go on, you are continuing to breathe life into the world around you. Yeah. And I think is appropriately like interpreted as a, a sort of internal, a metaphor for that like internal kind of coming back to the world after experiencing a tragedy. But I think there's also an interpretation of it's, it's part of engaging with the world around you, you know, as you go on, there are more creatures that you discover. You know, one of the early phases is you bring back the color green and then your, the next level is like a forest that's full of these little critters and you make a friend who I have a plush version of my shelf over there. Yeah. It's so cute. He's like a little like square rock with a leaf coming out of his head. He's really cute. But it feels like there is something to be said here for the fact that by bringing color back into the world, you're bringing beauty into the world and therefore becoming more connected to it, you know, in later levels, when she gets her voice back, it makes flowers bloom and things like that. And then at the end, the fact that the thing that that sort of helps you overcome this malevolent force is that the statue starts singing with her for the first time, you know, like two voices instead of one. I think there is an interpretation here that's about why we create art and what it adds to the world and how it helps us connect with people. But again, I think that that is sort of perfectly in line with this theme of grief because the fact is one of the things that is so important in getting over a tragedy, not that you ever get over it. But like in rebuilding after a tragedy like that is finding community and being embraced by loved ones, you know, so yeah, I just, I love this game so much. It's so good. Yeah. Yeah. So there are two kind of prevailing interpretations of this game, and one is more common. And I think probably the right one, but the other one is really appealing to me. Yeah. Which is who has, who has passed? Is it the woman depicted in the statue? Or is it the character you're playing? Right. Yeah. Because at the end, the stars create a platform that at the very end of the game, the very last thing you do is you walk up them and ascend to heaven, it appears. And so when I played this game the second time for the show, I was like trying to figure out which one I think it is. And you can really take it either way. At some point towards the end of the game, you literally see a statue of the woman laying down with her arms crossed over her chest as if she is, you know, it is her funeral. So like, I think that it is pretty clearly that interpretation, but I don't know, there's, I do think that there is a read of this that is this is the woman in the statue is the person who is grieving and like going through her grief journey is how she is sort of symbolized by like helping Greece, the player character like move on. I think even if it's not literal death, you know, like, yeah, even if it's not the main player character is dying, I think you could have the read of like the person who she was is dying, right? Like, you know, if you want to take the allegory all the way out, right? Like, maybe this is a person who just moved to a new city or something. And the person who they were doesn't feel right anymore. You know, you're losing the ability to sing. And so you have to kind of like rediscover who am I? Who is this person? How do I like, you know, have color in the world in the way that I used to? And then kind of saying goodbye to that old version of yourself at the end there. Yeah, I, that's a, that's very fun. I like that read a lot. Yeah, I was kind of stuck, I was kind of stuck on the mother daughter read of this, which I also like, I think that that's the maybe canonical version of this. I think so. Yeah. But I like that it's vague enough that it's not like definitely yes, 100% that you can kind of have whatever experience you want with it and that's still valid. Yeah. I will say supporting that we is now I will talk about the, the hidden cut scene. If you unlock the collectibles, it is just a scene of the, the woman depicted in the statue and a younger version of the player character sort of like stargazing and catching fireflies. So yeah, I think it is supposed to be a mother daughter relationship. And the most likely interpretation is like, this is the daughter grieving her mother. Yeah. But yeah, there's a darker read that it's the other way around because it's a, it's, which is like, at the beginning of the game, I was like, it's kind of hard not to see it that way. Cause like you see these, you know, smaller statues of the woman depicted in like complete anguish. Like it is so visceral, these like, you know, emotions she is clearly having. And so yeah, I don't know, but I, I do think like, you know, star imagery is also, you know, there's, there's like the literal kind of like, okay, from this, this is like a very special memory that you unlock. If you get all the things, it's like, okay, stars matter because it was something that they did together that they shared. Um, but I mean, just thinking about like the kind of tarot interpretation of the star guard, like it is, it is a symbol of like renewal, especially after tragedy. Yeah. That I think that, that totally fits here, right? Like the idea that like, this is her sort of path forward now after kind of going through the events of the game. It's pretty close to what I ended up feeling cause I think for most of the game, the thing that kept coming up to me was like navigation and like how to get from one place to another in the way that like, you know, somebody sailing on a boat uses the stars to like place themselves to be able to get where they want to go. And it feels kind of similar here of like, she's using these, I mean, literally sometimes using the stars to get from one place to another. But I think, you know, just metaphorically, it felt like she is using this as a way to, I don't know, center herself or find her place among where she, you know, is kind of lost. And yeah, I don't know. I feel like that's kind of, at least for me in the moment, it was kind of empowering to be like, this is cool. It's kind of a strength here. I like that interpretation too, because part of sort of one of the last like colors to fill in is like the color of the sky at the end, right? It's like beautiful, like night sky with like a bright moon, you know, in the center of it. So I like that interpretation of like the night sky being the thing that is like kind of guiding her for. Yeah. Good video game. Good. Yeah. Wow. I was just listening to my two friends make a podcast just now. That's good. I like that a lot, I think unrelated to that completely just thinking about the turtle on the level. What do we think the turtle is? How do we interpret the turtle? Because she does get eaten by the eel, right? And then the turtle frees her from the eel. Yeah. But we do create the turtle by finding the stars, right? I mean, there's a certain amount of like, you've gone through part of this journey already and you're developing the resilience to kind of propel yourself forward out of those, those really lowest, darkest moments. Yeah. I think also if we're interpreting stars as like tied to this memory, I think there's also an interpretation of like part of, part of grief is, is, is memory. It's, it's remembering the, the moments. I think it was Chase said earlier, like, not just the last moment when things were, you know, as dark as they could have been, but like the moments that preceded it, which I feel also ties into like finding color again in the world. Yeah. That would be my interpretation of that. I think like for while I was playing it, I was running a parallel and like, I don't know, thought about like what's happening. Cause like for most of the playthrough, I was kind of like, this is just a straight down the middle metaphor. It's like an allegory almost. And my feeling was like turtles or any of the people that are like helping her along her way or just like maybe friends in her real life that she has learned to connect with. And like in the same way that when somebody is totally overcome with grief, sometimes you just need somebody to be like, Hey, can I come over and just like fall to pieces for a little while? And that that's like effective and helpful, that that's kind of what my feeling was about turtle friend was like, she has, you know, I don't know if created is the right word, but at least found someone who was willing to help her along her way. And that, you know, when, when things are pretty dark and pretty dire that you can lean on someone like that to at least pull you out of it for a moment, I like that I have any more like specific connected thoughts. I just have a bunch of random bullet point thoughts around shout out, shout them out. Yeah. I had already said, I feel like I was playing a piece of art as soon as the game started. Yeah. When the title screen happened after you find the top of that tower and the sun and it just we love a link title screen. God, dude. I said, Oh my God out loud to myself alone in my living room. Yeah. And then there was the moment, you know, we can talk about obviously the statue imagery of the woman, there's the moment where you like walk into a cave kind of thing and there's like pillars of the woman, like, you know, in various states of sadness. But I think what's really, what really struck me about that specific beat, and I think that's the first time you see any statue of the woman that's not like the giant one is like the first one is like, you know, a fully carved like person. The second one, she's like a little more, there's like four stages and at the end of it, she just is, it's just a pillar. There is no like even sense that there was something carved in it at one point. And I do think that it's just like that being the first thing you encounter and denial being the first stage of reef, I think is just like, well, I'm just going to turn this person into another like thing in my mind, like I'm going to turn it into a pillar and it's just going to be there and it's whatever. It's just so good. And then the, there's a moment, I think the game direction in this game is so good. Just like the way that it teaches you mechanics and how to use mechanics in various different ways, there's one moment specifically where you have to use your like ground bound to break through the ground. And then you fall into, you know, a thing of water and then like a body of water. Yeah. And like a minute after that, you have to do that to solve the puzzle. It was like, oh, the game was showing me that if I jump from a high height in the, in the ground pound form, I will sink a bit. Yeah. It's just so, it's just good. I mean, it's like, like really simple, but like that's the thing that it's like, well, sometimes it's so simple that you just don't bother, you know, to put it in a game or something, but it was just like, it's just really, very good. It's doing the Mario thing where like exactly, you barely think about the fact that you are learning how the game works. And then the game without even asking you or telling you what's going to happen, just twist it a little bit. And you're like, I already know how this works, like I don't have to think about it. It's just like, I have already intuited the way that the next puzzle has to be solved without them ever bringing a dialogue box up that says, you jump from a higher platform, it'll crash through the ground, like that never happens. Yeah. And it's, it's so good because it's like, I feel like those moments, you know, for me as a person who's played a game, played games my entire life is like, well, yeah, obviously if you jump from a higher platform in your ground pound form, you'll sink deeper into the water. Like that's just how my brain works. So I'm playing a game. It's like, I know kind of how game physics works, but there are times when like I'm playing stuff with my partner Tara and like, I'll do something or like she'll be doing something like, oh, what if you try this? And she's like, how did you even think to do that? I'm like, oh, well, that's just like a thing in video games. But the fact that they were able to do the Mario thing of like showing you like, oh, if you're the block, you'll fall into the water and it not feel like, like it didn't feel like a dumb thing. I was like, oh, cool, fun. I got to do like a big cannonball and then sink a bunch. Just really, really good. I feel like a lot of that is like kind of a similar thing in like film. If you ever see like a camera or someone, like a lens or an eyeball in a, or in a, in a film and you're like, aha, they're saying something about filmmaking here. Yeah. It's kind of the same thing of like you've, you've just seen it enough times that it makes sense. But I think a good video game is, or a game that relies on that stuff, it needs to be able to stand on its own without having the context of like having played Mario for 20 years or whatever played another game. And so that it feels both satisfying for somebody who might have already known that and also satisfying for somebody who's finding that for the first time and like, oh, that was really cool. It works for both. Yeah. Which is hard. That's a hard thing to do. It's really, really hard. Yeah. Can we talk about the gravity level? Let's talk about the gravity. Yes. Let's talk about the level. Yeah. The last level is sort of like a mirror tower where like you have like the tower and it's normal and that's cool and fun and then there is like a mirror version of it above you. That is reversed gravity. And so you're bouncing from like one side to the other and they just like delineate it by like a horizontal line and you're bouncing from one to the other to like solve the puzzles. It gets me every time. Yeah. Just being like, oh, yeah, they did this. Yeah. It's very cool. Like the platforming also gets a lot trickier because you kind of have all of the tools in your arsenal now and they're like, okay, use them. Yeah. That was one of the moments that had me like, like I went like, oh, come on. Just like, you know, gamer grown because I double jumped to get from one platform to another platform. But I did it too fast and I jumped a little too high, thus triggering me passing the gravity threshold and going all the way back to the beginning of that like sequence and like, it was like 10 seconds. Exactly. Which puzzle you're talking about. Yeah. You got to wait a second before you do that second jump or you are going to jump back into normal gravity. It's like, but you know, none of this stuff is game breaking, obviously. It's just like momentarily annoying and momentarily annoying. And I think it's just, it's like all on me because it's not like, it's not like a failure in game design or anything. I think it's just like, I had such a, like, I would fall in and out of this like a kind of flow state with the game where it's like, I am playing a painting again. And then something would happen where I'd have to do something a second time and I'm like, oh, this isn't, this isn't, this isn't solely an art piece anymore. It's a video game. Yeah. That, that level starts to require a degree of precision that was like not mostly required in the earlier parts of the game for sure. But yeah, it's really stunning. Yeah. It's really, really visually. We can cut this out, but I do, I have to, I have to get it off. I just there, the moment where you have to sing to like activate the spider thing. Oh, yeah. It took me like a full five minutes to figure out because I was like, I just thought it was like another collectible. And I was like, I just don't know how to get there and like, whatever, I'm doing something else now. And so like, I went around that little area like going through the, going through the water and then through the gravity thing, like three or four times. And then I was like, okay, I get, and then I, I went and did the entire other side and then went back to it and like, what the fuck am I supposed to do here. AJ did the exact same thing. Oh my God. I was, and then when I figured this out, I was like, how was I supposed to know I had to sing at this orb? It's the thing I've never seen before, but whatever, I, you know, I'll, I'll cut that up. I just had, I had to get it off my chest. Yeah. Yeah. No, you don't have to cut it out. I mean, it's, I, it's real. Yeah. I had the same thing again, can be beautiful and have times when I'm like, wait, how was I supposed to do that? Yeah. That was, I think it's one of the, the biggest, like stumbles in terms of that, like non-verbal sort of like cue it, yeah, it's just, and, and that doesn't really happen again. Maybe like, maybe a couple of times with the like big bug, like scarab beetle ones, but yeah, even those, those, no, they're like shaped like flowers. So you know. Right. To sing at that. Yeah. Yeah. I think that would have been a more effective thing to do there. It's like, just make the flower shape. So we know this thing. Yeah. It was like a piece of architecture that had this circle in it that was like, oh, I've, I've seen this and that's like a collectible, but I'll, I'll figure that out at some point. I do think though, that's, that does bring an interesting coming back around to like talking about Journey as a, as a point of, of inspiration and then like using mechanics. Like, this is like Journey, but with a puzzle platformer put on top of it in terms of like the vibes and the story and stuff, but then you put the puzzle platformer on top. I think it's interesting to see how that works and does not work and like how so hard that balances to strike of like, well, we can't make it too easy. Cause then it doesn't, then like what's the point of having it be a puzzle, puzzle platformer at all, but then if it's like too hard or just like too like esoteric in some ways, it's like, it feels just like a video game, which is like a fine thing to be because it is a video game. Yeah. But for it to, to kind of oscillate between like this is an art piece or this is a video game is like a really, really hard balance to strike. And I think for 99% of the video game, it does it very, very well. Mm hmm. Okay. That's my, that's, that's all I got to talk about this game. It's really good. Do we want to talk about the thing that you will be left with after having played this game? A big takeaway, if you will. It's like where are we going? Uh, yeah, well, let's talk about big takeaways. So when you're finished with Greece and in two months, you're thinking about Greece. What's the thing that you're hanging on to? That's spider puzzle. No. I've been thinking about this so hard for the last 24 hours and I just, I'm having such a hard time coming up with something because the game is just really good at illustrating what it feels like to be going through grief. It does that so well in so many ways. I don't know what the tip, like the takeaway from that sentiment is like the video game is really good. And that's not, it's like not, not to take away really. Mm hmm. Hey, it's your podcast. You can do whatever you want. Well, do you, do you have one, maybe, maybe you come back to me later and we'll see. I mean, for me, I think on a second playthrough, it's this idea that, you know, part of what you need to do in order to, you know, start to heal from going through grief like that is like embracing like the life around you. I think that that was the thing that struck me from this playthrough is like, again, like you're, you're bringing life back into the world at each phase. Like, you know, you, you, by bringing back the color blue, it starts to rain and then that fills, you know, these, these waters where suddenly there's like fish all over and your turtle friend and like, I think it is so much about like reentering the world and remembering like there are still good things even without, you know, even with this loss, there is still so much life out there and so much beauty and so much art and so much song. That's my, my big takeaway, I think, from this one. Yeah. Yeah. Mine is not, I feel like not too far away from that. I kind of like weirdly appreciate how the game is every now and then a little frustrating. Mm hmm. Yeah. Cause like, I don't know, I, I, I like the interpretation that this is someone who's just going through it and like that, that is a frustrating experience sometimes of like, I know all the right things to do. I know it needs to be done and it's still hard and difficult to do sometimes of like, I know that when the wind blows, I got to, you know, make my dress a big block and walk through it. But sometimes I just forget to do that and I get my ass kicked, you know, I get blown back. So yeah, I mean, like, you know, I, I am no stranger to grief or, you know, feeling that and especially with like the mom stuff there, like it's something that is familiar in a way and I kind of liked, I think the thing that I'm kind of walking away with is the kind of sense of strength that you walk away with at the end of this game. I felt in the beginning of the game very powerless against most of the stuff in the game. And so like, that is a familiar feeling when dealing with grief a lot of the time of just like, I don't even know what to do with this. It's just kind of a mess and I don't know how to like work with that, but I appreciate that the game intentionally like gives you all these things you can do and gives you ways that you can feel like, I know how to do this and I am going to fall off the platform a couple times and not hit it perfect the first time. But that like the way through this is to sing and let yourself get overcome by the black wave of grief and to feel that and that that's like okay and important and that there's strength in that and that like, you know, that doesn't mean leaving behind the person that is gone, but just that like, it's a different relationship now, it's something that you have to treat differently, you can't be held by this thing all the time, it's something that you have to carry with you, it's the song you have to sing, right? Yeah, I guess we didn't even really talk about the symbolism of you leaving her hand at the end to go up to the stars. Yeah, I think that's really good. I think I can't believe you brought me around to the frustration is actually a good thing. Yeah, I actually pulled a couple of quotes from the articles that I referenced earlier, but I just didn't bring them up, but the one I do want to bring up in reference to coming to my big takeaway is from Vicki Blake's piece in Eurogamer, whether by accident or design and I'm inclined to think it's the latter, it doesn't matter where you go or how you get there, you'll uncover new areas, skills, and even companions without conscious effort. And I think that is just like, the whole game is just like, there is no perfect path to take to grieve, whichever way you go is correct, but the only the only correct thing you can do is feel it all. So I think that that that is like the big takeaway is just like, there's no right way to do grief, except to feel it. Yeah, wow, video games, video game, good video game stuff. All right. Do you want to end the show now? Yeah, it wouldn't hurt. Hey, thank you so much for listening to the podcast. We're delighted to have you here. This is the first episode we're recording since we've released, I think. No, we did white ocean big jacket. Oh, we did white ocean big jacket. Never mind. I forgot. I forgot for Gore for Gore. Thank you for so much for listening. And if you haven't played Greece, hey, still play it. I mean, even if you know like the story stuff now, if you listen to the spoiler stuff, the platform is fun and it's a good time and it's beautiful and it sounds great. It's worth it just to experience the combination of like visuals and sound and the music and it's so good. Yeah, even if you know what happens, it's still effective. Like, yeah, you will still have a personal experience getting through it. So I think it's worth it, even if you know, like kind of the the meta stuff going on. Yeah, absolutely. If you do play the game or if you have played the game, we of course would love to hear your thoughts in the discord that's linked in our show notes or it's linked on our website. It's also linked on the worstgarbage.online website. We are brought to you by the worst garbage podcast network. Thank you for having us on the network. You can list a bunch of other great shows there. Can't let it go. I think we'll have just come back or is about to come back when this episode releases with their fourth season, guessing a bunch. But that's Matt and AC and they talk about stuff. They recently just changed the pitch of the show to an audio PowerPoint party, which I think is so fun. So on point two, that is the perfect way of describing it. Yeah. Also, you can listen to, of course, Kemonized Frog of the Week. You can listen to Chases, video game, Potomism, you can listen to pause and claws, a warrior read through show, you can listen to Into the Aether, a Loki video game podcast. You did it. Okay. And then I was, I was like, there's another one, but it's us. It's where the other one is. Listen to Dotsiv also. Thank you to all of our collaborators or my beautiful and wonderful partner Tara for making the art for the show and the art for this episode. Thank you to Amaranthan for making our theme music. Thank you to Brendan, aka bokeh for making the system sounds. And you can follow the show on blue sky dot zip online. And you can follow us various places as well. But the best place to reach any of us is always the TWG Discord, the only social media that is good for the time being. Temporarily, Discord in general, not not the TWG service specifically. The server is great, but Discord, you know, it's a tech company at the end of the day. So it could really just eat shit at any moment. Anyway, we'll be back next week with another episode of the podcast, Jason Kim. Thank you for making this show with me. Thank you for making the show with me. Wow. I mean, I'm going to say goodbye. I'm just behind the curtain. Chase and I are recording two more podcasts after this, Kim. We're also recording a ram after this. So it's like non stop going on a podcast, talking to my friends all day. Have a good time. All right. We'll see you next week. See you. Goodbye. Bye. [Music]
