Our Own Devices with Nandagopal Rajan

How to rethink the smartphone

In this episode of The Indian Express tech podcast – Our Own Devices, host Nandagopal Rajan, COO, The Indian Express Online is joined by Akis Evangelidis, Co-founder, Nothing. Smartphones have become a very common gadget these days, and all sorts of innovations have already been tried and tested on them. But, Nothing comes like a breath of fresh air with a new and exciting user experience in smartphones. Akis talks about his thought behind coming up and experimenting with new innovations in smartphone technology. He discusses how seeing himself as a user as well as a creator made him believe that he was creating a promising product. To understand what's unique about Nothing smartphones, tune into today's episode of Our Own Devices with Nandagopal Rajan.

Introduction 00:00
How do you re-imagine a smartphone? 00:35
Bringing a unique user experience 2:48
Consumer adoption 6:23
Exploring and experimenting with new technology 8:11
User against founder conflict 10:55
Manufacturing in India 13:35

Edited and mixed by Suresh Pawar

Duration:: 19m
Broadcast on:: 15 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

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[Music] Hello, and welcome to another episode of our own devices. This time, we have a very interesting person to speak about a very interesting brand. And it's literally the new kid on the block though it's been here for a couple of years at least. We're going to talk about the brand, Nothing. And to speak about nothing and a lot of things, which nothing has been doing over the past couple of years, is Akhis Evangelidis, who is the co-founder of Nothing. So Akhis, welcome to the show. Hey, super excited to be here and yeah, talking about Tech, my favorite topic. So Akhis, it's a very exciting new brand that you guys have brought out there. And it's come at a time where everybody was thinking, what new can you do in this space, right? You know, even I am guilty of having written pieces saying, you know, innovation is literally dead in the smartphone space. And into that, you bring in nothing which reimagines the smartphone, started reimagining the smartphone, then accessories. Everything is coming with a new twist and that is not just in design. Even in the UI UX, you have a different take on how things can be done. So my first question is, how do you reimagine a phone, something that has been literally done today? Yeah, I guess the way you felt is the way we felt. You know, when we started, everything started, you know, from that very genuine feeling from an end user standpoint, you know, we felt that was, I think now things have changed a bit with kind of the AI coming up and it will be changing a lot of things. And there is a lot of new players starting new stuff. So I think the sort of current landscape has slightly changed. But like four years ago, when we started, we definitely were on the same page as you were writing that article. And yeah, at the time, we didn't really know how we were going to do things. But the whole intent was, you know, can we make Tech fun again? It started from a very simple, kind of almost childish feeling of ours, you know, like we grew up with Tech, you know, like all the sort of, you know, the first iPhone launch, the interacting with the first iPod. I still remember, you know, that feeling, you know, Tech was exciting. And that was the whole point of what initiated the start of nothing in a way. And I think what has happened across the last four years, we've come to develop a product philosophy and an associated user experience that's really unique to nothing. That basically blends hardware innovation and associated to a very unique software experience. And for me, that's what I've been the most exciting about, because we've kind of crafting and refining that user experience and really building something truly unique that we have to offer us a brand. So we know a brand that's kind of will jump on trends like, oh, foldable. Here is our foldable. This is happening. Oh, here is amazing specs for a very low price and so on. No, no, no. We are about bringing a very unique user experience, which is true to us. And I think with phone one, phone two, we really kind of build our product capabilities to, you know, bring that to life in a way, both on a hardware and software level. I think phone two was, I think it was, yeah, awarded the most improved smartphone by MKBHD, which kind of meant the last for us, you know, because it took a lot of effort to, you know, be able to deliver a product at that level from a user experience standpoint. And all of a sudden, we had like a very unique recipe. And this year was all about, you know, scaling that. Can we bring that kind of nothing recipe that results in this very unique user experience onto other price segments? So the first bet was with phone two, A, and each price segment brings its own restriction and parameters, right? Because of course, you have a cost associated to it. So are we able to do something fun? Are we able to bring this kind of design innovation and kind of, you know, having still the similar software experience than our flagship line? So we did that with a phone two way. We had to kind of play with polycarbonate for the first time. So we had this kind of really kick-ass kind of back cover that kind of goes on the side, further expirating our transparency, so bringing that design innovation. And then same thing when we look at like CMF1, same principle. Can we bring hardware design innovation into price segment that has seen more of the same across the last five, ten years? You know, I think products that I launched like five years ago and taking similar been recently launched, the user experience feels more or less the same. So for us, it was a key challenge. And again, a lot of restrictions comes into that price bracket, of course. But same principle started with CMF, you know, we started with engineering, see what we could surface, we brought the kind of the screws, and we really like this kind of industrial feel to it. And when we think about designs always about, you know, can we add function to it, you know, function, follow function. We're feeling believers of that. It's not just kind of looking cool or, you know, we need to always look for an element of functionality. So this is quite rapidly, we gravitate around this kind of, you know, swappable back cover and also bringing a sense of nostalgia, you know, like I had the 33, 10 at the time, you know, I remember going to the street markets, like getting all the different covers and so on. So that kind of nostalgia as well, bringing those memories back to our product, something we're quite excited about. But then yet it's quite functional because you change your whole back cover. And we all guilty of like dropping our phones quite a few times, right? And it does as much as all the products go through very kind of thorough quality testing and different drop tests and whatnot issue that it sort of have dense when you drop it from two meters, it will have a dense or, you know, having the ability to change that back cover and having whole new phone six months, one year down the line, I think super cool. And also just the ability to change colors, if you feel like it without having to buy a whole new phone. So we were quite excited about this. And then, you know, we came off course pushes things always further. And then they thought about this kind of accessory point, I can further enhance your user experience, you know, where lanyard like even myself, I'm wearing that more and more. But then I had to use like a case and I never use case for our products. You know, I just love our products. So much of design, you know, I feel bad putting a case. You want to flaunt the design? Exactly. So, you know, like using the accessory point put the lanyard, you know, I think it was a very clever and then the stand. Same. I think we all been in those kind of situations like in the plane and so on, you're when you're trying to balance your phone to be watching content and so on. So it worked actually super well. And again, within those kind of price constraints that exists. And I think the team did a tremendous job. So at times when you are really thinking out of the box and again in a segment, you know, which hasn't really done a lot in this space, except for some flirtations, I would say here and there, how easy or difficult is it to get the consumer adoption? Because it's one thing, you know, innovating at the product level. But how do you get the users to use it, accept it and then love it? This comes up often as a question, but I think, you know, we treat ourselves as users, right? Like we make this one. We are a founder led brand. We are behind every single decision that goes into those products. And there are a lot of things that didn't make the cut, right? Like, you know, when it comes to it, like we think about it, like would I use this as simple as that? You know, sometimes they are a lot of like data, user data led decisions that go into our product. So for instance, in this point segment, we realized the majority of people buy 128 gigabyte version and add expendable storage. So for us, we added this. So this is definitely very kind of data-led decisions. But there are also decisions that we are taking being user ourselves. You know, ever since we started nothing, we're making products that we're proud of. As simple as it sounds, I think it's not the case for a lot of brands that they're especially in this price segment. And when you look at the product, when you explain the product, you definitely realize it's not the case. For us, every single price point we are making products that we would be using ourselves. And this kind of sets very, I guess, strong principle from that end. So, you know, like covered, made sense. You know, we draw phones. You know, it's as simple as that, like the accessories always been there in terms of a stand. Lanyard, I'm using a third-party case and Lanyard to be able to use it. So those are use cases that we kind of think from a user standpoint, not from a company or brand level. So it's as simple as that. And when you are looking at products or new problems to solve, are there problems which you think? No, you don't really have a viable solution for it in the smartphone space. No? Are there things that you want to do now, but you know, maybe technology is not there yet. And you have to wait, maybe six moments to do it. We have to wait or we have to experiment, explore. Carl recently posted a video, right, talking about how we look at AI. And I think his vision when it comes to it is actually spot on. You know, there is a big race in terms of, you know, AI, this AI that whereas as Carl mentioned, there is no doubt that the future AI hardware, the main gateway will be your smartphone. You know, as much as shut out to everyone that has tried and we're in loving seeing people coming with concepts and so on, there is no doubt that it's going to be the smartphone, right? But the user interface for the next kind of AI led user experience is not going to be abled. You know, everything is going to be extremely dynamic, contextualized, highly personalized where that interface should be delivering value to you. I think too often now even with our current technology, the reality is like some of the technology is extracting value from you, right? When it sort of, you know, it keeps you in apps, scrolling and so on. But think about the very kind of dynamic AI led interface where it's your preferences, your personality, everything is dictating the content that's been surfaced and fed to you versus, you know, third parties, which monetize that, right? Or that has a lot of like, you know, complexity associated to it, technological kind of limitations and so on. And that, you know, I think Carl's vision is extremely strong when it comes to it, but this will take time. We'll take a lot of R&D from our side kind of get it right. And this is why also, you know, Frontway is coming on the next year, because yeah, it does take time to innovate in that space. But we're equally, extremely excited for us. It's an exciting time because we've been developing that kind of innovative muscle, you know, it started as simple as like hardware innovation, and then quite rapidly software innovation and rethinking the user interface and how we interact with technology. And the product team has developed this very kind of creative muscle that I think it's very unique in kind of trying to crack that next user interface that will be coming with the AI. I think we're in a very good spot and we're extremely agile as well, right? Big companies, they often like the product development cycle and so on. And there are a lot of opportunity costs associated to some decisions they could make. Whereas, you know, we have a lot more much bigger agility when it comes to product development, when it comes to innovation, you know, how drastic we can be with our approach. So yeah, quite excited. The other question I asked a lot of smartphone company founders and CEOs over the years is that Akis the co-founder versus Akis the smartphone user. Is there a conflict that keeps happening? Because you, as somebody's running the company, you have to balance a lot of things, right? You have to balance the cost, you have to balance the technology that is available now, you have to balance user demand. How do you do that against, you know, Akis the consumer who wants to use a product which is solving all your problems? I mean, I think it's more, hopefully, we're going to be able to operate like this for many years to come. I think there are always kind of, you know, business aspect that's coming to play, and even for us not to, and this we're quite open about it, you know, indeed, to be operating and driving innovation and surviving in this industry is probably the toughest industry people don't realize what it takes to be in this industry, you know, as much as fun as it is. The entry buyer is extremely hard. This is why all new companies are felt. The value chain is extremely extensive. You need to get, and not only super expensive, but also you need to be perfect at it, you know, you are in an ensure you're competing with the biggest brand in the world. So the bar to be in this industry is extremely high. So, you know, for us scale was a must, you know, it's important to be scaling, and this is what all this here is about. It was important, and I guess that's where we were not nervous, but like, you know, going into front way, we had a lot of expectation, because, you know, is this experience that bet we put into, you know, nothing, you know, like, we felt excited, but will the mass adopt this? Will they understand that value? And front way was the first test, you know, this kind of hardware design innovation and software with people who see value in this in terms of buying these versus, you know, another smartphone or a company that's been around for years. Thankfully, the answer was yes, as a front way was by far our best selling phone. We managed to, our best forecast was best now it was selling 100,000 units in one week. We sold 100,000 units in 24 hours, so that was a big relief. And now it's a month from one. Same. I personally never launched a product in that price segment. Everything was a bit unknown to me. It was more kind of looking at data and also taking the bet. Will people appreciate our user experience into this part segment? And yeah, looking at all the buzz and excitement over the last 48 hours, I think the answer is is definitely yes. I mean, now there is the sales happening in two days. So that's like, I guess 50% done. The other 50% hopefully in the next 48 hours. But yeah, to answer your question, we're trying to remain as true as possible to what we've kind of, you know, promised ourselves going into nothing. Hopefully that will be always the case and how we think about product. And I think if you think about product the right way, people will ask a user, a lot more users out there that hopefully will feel the same way. And so far, so good, I would say. So before we wind up, one last question. I remember last time we met, you were so excited about what actually manufactured in India. So I want to understand about your journey, how much does making in India help nothing? I mean, it's helped a lot first, you know, we're able to produce a lot more, a lot faster. You know, I think a fun way we've been kind of chasing demand ever since we launched. So it's ensuring that we're able to make our product more widely available. First time, I mean, it was a bit overdue, but first time I visited our factory in Chennai was early this year. And yeah, shout out to you guys. Honestly, I think India is such an exciting market. And I was extremely impressed by the factory, how everything is super high tech, the cleanness of the factory. I was definitely extremely impressed by how things have been run in India. And I think it's definitely a very exciting market that will be playing a major role within the tech ecosystem. It's going to be, you know, quite rapidly looking at not only making products for India for the India market, but also for the international markets as, you know, the level of manufacturing is actually catching up with the best factories globally. So yeah, quite excited. I think a whole India journey is actually extremely exciting. You know, like even myself, when I come here, the level of excitement and enthusiasm, there is, first of all, around the brand, but also tech as a whole, you know, like users here, mainstream people are extremely tech savvy, you know, they're not the stuff. And you know, being making tech, those people are the ones that will know how to appreciate the decision that you're making to your product, right? And I think there are not many markets like this, I will understand why you made certain decisions, all that will appreciate, for instance, as a software experience, not having bloatware, not having trackware and so on, whereas, you know, in markets where people are less tech savvy and so on, then eventually don't care when they don't even understand or appreciate that experience. But for us, from a kind of tech enthusiast standpoint, it's something very important. And that's what I find a lot here, that people appreciate the main things that we appreciate about tech. So yeah, quite an exciting market for us. And now we're going to be, yeah, I mean, the growth is exponential, of course, actually, it's quite funny, from our growth journeys, actually a nice kind of exponential graph, because it took us two years to cross one million product, it took us one extra year to use to cross our second million product, then it took us six months, extra months across a third million, and less than three months now the fourth million. So hopefully the fifth million will be coming in one and a half month now. But yeah, the market has been also kind of growing exponentially. We're actually going to be doubling our team here in India. We were, for the longest period of time, we're in a, we work space. Now we moved into our own office, so we've got a big office. We had this show that was recently a point as a general manager, someone super experienced, that will be kind of building our operation in a very serious way as well. We have now over 300 service centers across India, and that's also going to be scaling and a lot of more plants coming. So yeah, definitely big markets in terms of both making our products, but also establishing nothing as a leading consumer type brand here. So, I guess, thanks for being on the show. Again, a very insightful session where we learned a lot about how the smartphone industry can be changed and the kind of effort a new company like yours is doing. So thanks for being on the show. Thank you, woman. And yeah, I appreciate our conversation. You listening to our own devices, we'll be back again next week with another guest and lot more insight. Till then we are available everywhere, you'll listen to your parts. You will listen to our own devices with Nand Gopal Rajan by the Indian Express. This week's episode was edited and mixed by Suresh Pawar and produced by Meen Harakananda. If you like the show, then do share it on your social media handles and do not forget to tag us. We go by Express Audio. You can find us on X and Instagram, and if you have any feedback, do right to us at partcasts@inexpress.com. That's partcast within S. And do not forget to tune in next Monday at 4 p.m. for another episode of our own devices. You have to celebrate your wins. We've won the Mint 400 and I celebrated that win for weeks, but then we had to focus and move on. Dustin Jones, championship winning Can Am Off Road Racer. Can Am is the same. The most race wins in all types of terrain with the Maverick X3, but then they focus and move on. The Maverick are 240 horsepower in the first 7-speed dual-clutch transmission. This thing's a game-changer. We celebrate those wins, but never for too long. The Can Am Maverick X3 in Maverick R. Visit canamoffroad.com. It's time for today's Lucky Land horoscope with Victoria Cash. Life's gotten mundane, so shake up the daily routine and be adventurous with a trip to Lucky Land. You know what they say. 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