Billy & Lisa in the Morning
Karen Read Trial Recap 6.26.24
You slept through your alarm, missed the train, and your breakfast sandwich. Cool. Sounds like you could use some luck. I'm Victoria Cash, and Luckyland is where people go every day to get lucky. At Luckyland, you can play over a hundred casino-style games for free for your chance to redeem some serious prizes. Go to Luckylandslots.com and get lucky today. No purchase necessary, VGW Group, where prohibited by law, 18-plus terms and conditions apply. I've been lied to in this courtroom. Karen Reed is innocent. Do justice and find her not guilty. Closing arguments in the Karen Reed trial yesterday, both sides getting to tell their present their cases. And it was kind of a crazy day. The jury's going to be back deliberating today. Katherine Loftus is in studio with us, she joins us after every day's testimony. So let's start there, closing arguments. Who do you think did better? Listen, I think Alan Jackson is a very skilled lawyer. He could tell us. He doesn't have to say anything. He's great. He, you know, weaved it in and out. There were no pauses. There was, you know, it just flowed. So I think if we're, you know, serving points, he probably gets the point. I don't think, listen, I don't think the Commonwealth did terrible. There was a lot of information presented from Adam Lally. He started out a little bit slow. I thought the middle was the best of his and the most substantive. And then towards the end, it was a little bit of a struggle. One, the judge, you know, interrupted him with the five minutes in the closing, but I 100% agree with you, but there was one distraction in the courtroom, which I couldn't stop looking at. And that was the presence of Brian Albert, Jen McCabe, Colin Albert, and Carrie Roberts. I thought it was wrong sitting right with the O.K. family. It looked like intimidation, jury intimidation to me. It did interesting. So why all of a sudden they're all sitting there staring at the jury? Well, I think, again, like with everything we talk about, there's two different perspectives to this. So the one is the one, how you feel is that this seems inappropriate. They shouldn't be here. They're accused of being, you know, part of this. And for the people who believe that she's being framed and they are murders, I can see that point on the converse of that. We have the people who believe Karen Reed is guilty that the Alberts and McCabe's have nothing to do with this, that they've been slandered. And I would imagine that the O.K. family had to okay them coming in. And so I think there's a lot of dynamics. I just, I just, I think they waited and, you know, I think they waited until the end. And I do think it's either way it was meant to show a presence and there's two different feelings that are coming from that based on which side of the case you're on. I have tried to remain in the middle here as a juror, listening to the evidence. Me too. I found it to be completely distracting. Yeah, I also wanted. And I think that was the intention. I would also like to ask and point out that, first of all, these people, especially like Colin Albert, he's a 20 year old kid, right? That was his neighbor. Why would he have any connection to go sit there for the closing arguments? Did these people go to his funeral? If you did not go to my funeral, you don't need to come to the closing arguments of my murder trial. I think I would, I mean, I don't have any insight, so this is literally just speculation. I would guess that Mrs. O'Keefe is the one who gets to make the decisions about who comes in. Yeah, okay. Well, that makes sense. And so I would bet that she, you know, she believes Karen Reed is guilty is right. That's my understanding and she probably believes, hey, because of this case and everything that's happened, all of these people have been subjected to, you know, harassment and all that kind of stuff. And if she invites them. Right. But why only that day? Why did they wait for the jury instructions in the closing argument? I think because you wait till the, you know, you, you do wait till the close of evidence because it's probably even more of a distraction if you're coming in every day. If you're, if this is ruining your life, okay, these four people, three people, why would you want to be there? I'd be like, you know what? I appreciate the offer. I hope everything goes well, but I'm going to, I'm going to set this one out. I think it, I think it goes both ways. It, to be honest, I think it depends on the person, like I'm the kind of person that if you were accusing me of murder and I didn't do anything, I'm not hiding. I'm going to be right out front and say, no, no, no, I'm here. You could look me in the eye. I didn't do anything. And then there's other people who say, I don't want any of this heat. I'm not. So I think it really at the end of the day comes down to personality. Right. It fits their personality. And what they're all saying. And what they presented on the stand in keeping with that. I have a question about Karen Reed, where do, where does she have to be while the jury is deliberating? So generally they're not, you don't wait at the courthouse. Usually go, you get lunch or you go someplace close. You have to be within, you know, once the jury calls, the jury comes back with a verdict and the clerk calls the lawyers and says, okay, we have a verdict. They usually within like 20, 30 minutes. So they're close. Are they given a room in the courthouse to stay in if they choose to? They probably could if they wanted. I would bet that they left the courthouse. Yeah. Just because it can be a long wait. And you know, we have no idea. Obviously people, you know, have the internet was saying they'll be back in 10 minutes and then they deliver it all day. Yesterday, we don't know if how long they're going to deliberate. I mean, it could be days. So generally you don't wait around in the actual courthouse because it's also more stressful for everybody to just be sitting there waiting. You try to kind of distract yourself until the verdict comes in. Quick question. So she's facing several charges and that's what the jury has to decide on, one of which is the DUI? No, not just that. So the DUI is part of the manslaughter charge, but she can't be found guilty. There's no solitary DUI. So even though it's, I believe it's been proven, she was driving under the influence, right? I'm sure they took it. She can never be prosecuted for the DUI. She wasn't charged with it? No. No. She wasn't just charged with the DUI. So she has manslaughter while operating under the influence, but that requires additional elements. So you basically need the elements of OUI and manslaughter together to find her guilty of that charge. Let's go to the phones. We've got Michelle. Michelle, good morning. Thanks for tuning in and thanks for joining us. This question for the counselor. Yes, I was just curious. I noticed Mr. O'Keefe wasn't in the courtroom yesterday. Does that mean that he thinks that Karen's innocent? Why wasn't he in the courtroom yesterday? I don't know. And I know I know. Hasn't that been reported that the mother and father disagree? There's been a lot of reporting and I hate to, I wouldn't want to speculate on what, you know, they're feeling that a lot of people don't want, even when, you know, your family members are victims of crimes. Some people don't want anything to do with the trial. Some people don't want anything to do with the system. So I don't think we should read into it that, you know, anybody thinks one way or the other. It's really just speculation. It's just not clear. Yeah. Yeah. Is that answer your question, Michelle? It sure does. Thank you very much. Thanks, Michelle. Thank you. What a crazy case this is. It's true. I'm still at a loss on this DUI thing. If she was driving under the influence and was proven to be driving under the, but there's no charge. So there's no charge. So originally she was charged with a manslaughter. And then when it was upgraded, she went, it went to second degree, but they never included a straight DUI. Um, I have a question. Do you know anything about the jury, the juror being dismissed yesterday? I don't. I've tried to find out some details, but I'm getting a lot of, you know, conflicting information. So I, I haven't found anything that seems to be really solid about what the basis for. It was, but, you know, can you imagine sitting there the whole entire time? It has to be something fairly significant to get to all the way through testimony, all the day of closing arguments. And then you get dismissed. So they said it was a personal reason. Do you believe? Do you? That's all they ever said. I don't. I know. It's, it's hard because without more information, I mean, it could be. It could be. Could be that. Hey, somebody could come up and say my mother had, you know, a heart attack last night. She's in the hospital. I'm not. I can't be here. I have to go. It could be sitting there for two and a half months or whatever it's been. They said she was annoyed that she got dismissed, which means, like, I wonder who says that. You know what I mean? That's my question. That's always my question. Is that media where, you know, where it comes from. And that's the hard thing about the juries is that unless that person comes out and talks about it or somebody else, I hope they do. Well, if anybody has any insight and you're listening out there, we're coming up on topic time. By the way, I want to hear from some of the people in pink, the hundreds of people outside the courthouse every day wearing pink, like they're coming in from Alabama, flying it I was Michigan. This is a whole story in and of it's all right now should be told that a lady and right before we went to break well into music, we were asking the question about the pink people who are all the people in pink outside the courthouse. They're traveling from all over the country. We have Deanna on the phone and Deanna, are you outside the courthouse? Yes, I am. I've been out here since about four thirty this morning. Okay. Now, are you one of the pink people? Yes, I am. Oh, this is so cool. All right. So we need to get to know you, Deanna. Okay. Now, where are you from? First off, my name is Deanna. Oh, hi, Deanna. Hey, Deanna. Hey, Deanna. Where are you from? Deanna. Well, Sam, Massachusetts home of the arrow Smith warehouse. There you go. Yes. There we go. Are you outside the courthouse every day? And if so, why? I am outside this courthouse every morning, usually between four and five o'clock in the morning to save spots. And I'm out here till Karen goes in. A lot of the times I leave after that, you know, because we all got to go make money. And I'm part of the morning crew. Ah, so you guys operate in shifts? Well, a lot of them, because a lot of us have to work and stuff. We can't take every day off and stuff, but the last few days I've done nothing but been down here. Okay. We're right here. I've been doing this for so long. This is the last bit of it. So I'm here. Are they long? So you dress in pink? Yeah. Wow. And black sometimes. Now, what is pink is not too pink is not too kind on us. Big girl. Okay, Deanna. Oh, so I'm a black. I'm a fan of black. Me too. Always one. What's the meaning of pink, Deanna? Karen picked the color because we couldn't if we really when the buffer zone went into effects, we really couldn't. It was, you know, you can't display any Karen Reed stuff or free turtle boy or anything. And so we decided they were we couldn't have a symbol like you couldn't wear anything. So we picked the color pink. Okay. So everyone. Karen. Do you know, Karen? No, how did she pick the color pink? I guess it's her favorite color, but she never was never seen her work never in a never seen her in a second. Never. It's usually in darker colors. Apparently, that's a favorite color. She picked it. So that's. Oh, but how and when did she pick it? Just. I don't know. Just let her out. She's been connecting with people over the course of the last two years. Yeah. Because she's very into blacks and grays. Yeah. This is Billy Costa. He is the gayest straight man you'll ever need. Why is she wearing that color? Why did she pick that color? He's stuck on the pink anyway, trial for murder and you're concerned about the pink. Wow. Well, asked and answered. I'm glad we asked the question. Anyway, thank you, Deanna. My name being again, we kid. You know what? That's what we do. The show, OK? And again, the only victim here is John O'Keefe. Let's go back to the phones and Amy Amy, yes, you have a question? I do. So my question is you guys were talking about how Karen didn't get charged with a DUI on top of everything. So in this case is all said and done, will they go back and charge all these law enforcement officers who admittedly have been driving drunk? Like some of them were in their cruisers and state cars like what happens to all of them? I'm asking that of Katherine. It's a good question. Katherine, you say no way. Nobody's going to be prosecuted. So the two things. So you have to prove somebody guilty of an OUI. You have to prove that they're operating on a public way and they're under the influence of intoxicating like liquor and basically in that they were operating, obviously. So I think what happens with this is you can't really prove backwards, right? Even from people's perspective, because it's not actually illegal to have a drink and drive. It's illegal to be intoxicated and drive. So you, even though the trooper, you trooper practice said, you know, we had a drink and then drove, that doesn't necessarily mean you're under the influence and you know, there's all kinds of burden of proof issues, but basically, no, nobody's going to get charged. They can't go back in time. Yeah. No one witnessed it. Right. They were told over. They weren't. All right. Let's go to Dixie. Dixie, you from the deep South or something, you don't get many Dixie's around here. No, you guys are funny. I've called before. I was, I was born in North Carolina, but I'm a Boston girl all day long. All right. You have a question for the counselor? Yeah. So look, I'm a die hard care and weed supporter. I follow the case for at least six months. Haven't missed a trial, but so for a thousand reasons, I think she's innocent, but I'm just going to focus on one thing and I'm curious, Catherine, what your thoughts are on it and it does come down to the dog bites. I think it has been proven unequivocally that they are, in fact, at least animal bites, but specifically probably dog bites in a pretty fresh. And if that is the case, to me that says, look, John went in the house period game over. So why are they asking everybody, as Jackson says, to look the other way on this? These are dog bites. Where would he get them? The Lexus didn't bite them. Well, I think one thing that, the first part of that analysis, I think, is we could get closer to there than the dog. So the pathologist basically said they look like animal bites and they could be a large dog. But the problem with that is it doesn't equal is, you know, and I have said for a while that there is some distinct possibilities maybe in the middle between him going into the house and Karen Reed hitting him, you know, we're in a fairly suburban area that's not there's not a it's not completely impossible that someone or an animal or something like a coyote. Yeah, I could have, you know, come to his body if he was on the ground. So I don't get to the next necessary inference that you need to get to in order to get him into the house. I know that other people do, but, you know, that's for the jury to decide back to the phones we go and Aubrey Aubrey have a question for Katherine. Hi, yes, I'm wondering why the Albert and the McCabe were allowed to sit in for closing arguments yesterday for the trial and especially their position, they're right across from the jury. Mm hmm. Yeah. So I mean, they're civilians. They're allowed in just like anybody else's there's been people on the defense side as well as the Commonwealth side. How did they get all those seats though? So each so behind Karen is basically her family and who she she chooses to go in with her. So she's had supporters from outside. She's had people from YouTube come. She has her family. And then on John's side, it's mostly been family and friends until now. And like we were saying before, I expect it's probably the O'Kee family who dictates who can come in. And ultimately they, you know, if the family says it's okay to sit with some, they have a right to be there. Mm hmm. Quickly, did you say she has people from YouTube coming in? Well, there's a lot of people who have been covering the case. Yeah. There's been one spot that has been reserved in that Karen reads supporter section in the courtroom for kind of a rotating guest list. Yeah. Inside edition is covering. Yeah. I saw that. Yeah. Anyway, Catherine, for you. Good morning. Question for Catherine. I watched her TikTok last night where she presented both sides of the case and like I appreciated the neutral stance and like, oh, this is a perspective of the other side. But how did he get hit by a car? I don't understand. Like, there's nothing that points to that other than some people say, she said I did it. I don't get it. Please explain. Okay. I mean, that's, it's not. Listen, that's up for the jury to the side. And we were just talking about before that I actually think one of the likely fatal flaws in the Commonwealth case was actually the troop of Paul, not Trooper Proctor. We all thought it was going to be Proctor Proctor. And obviously this terrible stuff that came from him. But if we had been able to see an expert on both sides that presented in the same way that the defense had, you know, we might be able to say, okay, this is how they got, he got hit by a car. This is the manner. But it just wasn't that persuasive from the Commonwealth's perspective and their expert. So I do think when we're talking about the actual evaluation of how he got hit, what happened, that point definitely goes to the defense. Were you surprised that Alan Jackson went so hard in on the third party defense and pretty much didn't even talk about the witnesses that were on the stand the day before that we all thought were so credible? I actually did. I really thought that the third party argument was going to be sort of the minor argument and the main part of it was going to be reasonable doubt, reasonable doubt, police investigation, all these problems. And then on top of it, hey, we have witnesses that have essentially conclusively shown that he couldn't have been hit by a car. But it was a very interesting way to go about it because the entire argument for the defense was really about the third party theory, which was surprising to me. I really thought they didn't even need to go there. I thought that they did such a good job establishing reasonable doubt that that alone would have been a pretty strong argument. But that's tactical. Justin, talk back. So I was just wondering what Catherine thought if the jury takes a long time, if they take a couple of days, does that hold bad for Karen? I would say generally the longer it takes, the more worried I would get if I were the defense. Yeah. Because that means they're thinking about it. That means they're thinking about that means they're not coming to a quick decision. That means you likely have people who are sticking to their guns. So I would say the longer it goes, the more worried you get. And what is she thinking? I mean, did she sleep at all last night? The verdict? Oh, it's going to be. I will say for me covering the case last week, yesterday, I felt like trials over it was you get this really like intense, you know, release of energy. But for her and for the defense team, that doesn't come until the verdict comes and she's found not guilty. So you're basically just like a stress ball waiting for the verdict to come back. I can't imagine. It's all because they've been stuck together for the last two months. Right. Right. It's a weird feeling. Yeah. It's like you're in this bubble, right? Before we wrap, I just want to, a lot of people are sending him messages. I guess she's staying Karen and her team are at a church. They rented a church. I guess near the courthouse. Hi, Lisa. Just a quick FYI. They rented the church right next door. They sit in there for their lunches and they were there yesterday to go back and forth to the courtroom. I did get several that said the same thing. Wow. I saw live yesterday where she, I didn't know it was a church, but she was in front of a white building. Oh, yeah. The whole one across the street. Yes. Yes. Yes. And that's where they came out. That's where they stay. Yeah. Oh, boy. It's close. Right. Yes. I hope she's praying to somebody. All right. So going forward, Catherine, there's no more testimony. That's right. The closing arguments are over. Well, will you be joining us tomorrow? I'll join you if you will. I think until this is over, you should just come back. We actually have so many calls and I don't know just in talkbacks that we didn't even get to. Yeah. So tomorrow, if there's no conclusion, we can just keep going with the talkback. If not, we can just obviously talk about the verdict. It's kind of like people want to talk more now. They want to give me even just make this Catherine see us. Yeah. It's almost like people want to talk more now than before during the trial. Yeah. And that's what happens often like the post trial. It is Ryan C. Chris here. People always say it's good to unwind, but that's easier said than done. The exception, Chumba Casino, they actually make it easier done than said, or at least the same. Chumba Casino is an online social casino with hundreds of casino style games like slots and blackjack. Play for fun. Play for free for your chance to redeem some serious prizes. Sign up now. Collect your free welcome bonus at Chumba Casino dot com sponsored by Chumba Casino. No purchase necessary, VGW group void where prohibited by law 18 plus terms and conditions