Welcome to the Starting Messy Podcast where chaos and courage come together to create magic. On this show, we're flipping the script on perfectionism and embracing the messy imperfect journey of entrepreneurship. I'm your host Misty Jane, a life and money empowerment coach for people who are obsessed with personal growth. My guests and I are sharing the truth behind what it means to start messy and why it's worth the leap, because let's be real. All the best stories start with a little chaos. Welcome back to the starting messy podcast. So today I'm super pumped. I am talking with my friend Maddie Cook. She is a, oh my gosh, how would I even describe this? She helps hairstylists with their pricing. Let's just put it that way. So not all my listeners are hairstylists anymore, but trust me, that is something that is so needed in the industry. And she's also got a new venture that she's working on that I'm going to ask her about a little bit later. So you definitely want to stick around for that. Maddie, welcome to the starting messy podcast. Thank you. If I haven't been, this is so exciting. Oh, thank you for being on. I'm excited to talk to you because you have went down a lot of different paths in your life and you have started messy numerous times, correct? Yeah, always. I want you to start just with the one story that pops in your head. What, in what way have you started messy? So I think, like, I always think of these little moments, like sliding doors, moments, just really random things that happen that just take you on this completely different path. And I think from where I am now, I could pinpoint that back to, I had to sell on and it was going, it was going fine. It was going well and I got a leaf look through the door and I would go and collect the post and it was from, so I'm from the UK, it was pre Brexit. So we were part of the European Union and it was like a fully funded business course from the EU. And I just read it, Misty, and I was like, "Shit, this is free." I just saw the free stuff and I live a freebie, so I was like, "Oh, this sounds cool." And it was like a two-day business course over like a couple of weeks. And I thought, "Oh, that sounds fun, like, you know, something to do." And I just signed up for it and I went and it was this guy called Ross who's a big business consultant guy and I was like, "Oh my God, I know nothing." It was like the most humbling experience ever, just like you don't know what you don't know. And it just like blew my mind and then I got, I have ADHD so I get like very easily obsessed with things and like hyper focus, so I started getting into like the podcasts and the books and everything else. And once you're in that world of going to courses, you know, you're then on the email lists and you get invited to all this other stuff. And I just loved it and then I realised really quickly I had a bit of a skill for taking, I guess I bore in complicated business concepts and going right, how can I put this into like easy to understand language for my industry, for her and beauty? And, yeah, then I just kind of got a reputation on me and they're for like knowing stuff, people were like, "Maddie will know this." And then I started a Facebook group, so I kind of got bored of answering the same question privately in DMs and again, part of ADHD. I think people call it laziness, but I've rebranded it efficiency. For efficiency, I was like, "I'm going to just start a Facebook group to answer the same question." And now that Facebook group has like 33,000 people because it just went absolutely insane. So that was like, if I hadn't have got that leaflet or someone else got the post, I think things would have just been, I mean, you know, I might have got here in a different road club. Yeah, that was, and I did start completely messy like I had no branding, like no website, no coaching qualification, I was just like, "Yeah, okay, let's see what happens." And then, you know, fast forward five years, so that's 2018, so yeah, and that's happened. Wow. So I have a question for you because I have a question. So you got the leaflet and you went, right? Do you believe in luck? Oh, so my favorite with luck is that it's very much like a mindset. So I think I'm a very lucky person, but I do a lot of lucky things. It's like, I look for things to prove that, right? There's a really good, I don't know if he's known over here, but Darren Brown is like in the UK, he's a magician, he does a psychology stuff and he's got a really good TV show from years ago called The Secret of Luck. Okay. And if you can watch it online, it's amazing. He takes these people who say they're lucky, and then a guy who says he's really unlucky and it shows you their paths of how they behave and what they do, and that really changed my life where you get people to go and never win anything. And I'm like, okay, when was the last time you did a competition or I don't know, but a lottery ticket? And I'm like, oh, never. Never. Okay. My favorite is like, I can't wait to win the lottery and it's like, but you don't play the lottery. So you're waiting for something that you don't actually do. I actually had this conversation with my mom recently because she was starting to like visualize. Like before she goes to bed, she tries to visualize like things in her future. So I visualize myself winning the lottery and then all the things I would do with it. I said, well, what if you started to visualize all the things you would do with that money and you got it in a different way than winning the lottery because you don't play the lottery. And she was like, you never thought about it like that. And I'm like, you're visualizing something that you're not even actively doing. Like, it's like, you can't visualize it and then it just shows up in your bank account. Yeah. That's like where people go wrong. I literally have the same conversation with a family member of mine who is obsessed about talking about winning the lottery. And I don't play the lottery because I'm like, I know how to make money and I know how to like be entrepreneurial. So it's like, I'd much rather have control of my luck than go, I'm going to pay five pounds a month and hope that one day I win this thing where the odds really start against me. I'm just like, I know people have made as much as a lottery winners made by working to make that. So yeah, I'm like, I feel like an incredibly lucky person, but I'm a very opportunistic person. And I like, but I have all these weird, like weird little moments I got thinking yesterday. One of my best friends now, I met her in the comments section of an Instagram post. And she now works for me, she works for a couple of my friends. She's been able to quit, start her, quit her by a camper van, have this like achieve her dream because we all kind of help each other to do that. And how I met her and then, you know, she became friends with us was there was a sober influencer who posted a thread saying, find your friends where you live. And you know, maybe in me, I was like, Oh, I'm going to just find a friend. And then I went and had a coffee with her. And then we look at friends and like, So I do all these, I'm a very like, yes person, like a massive, yes person. Yes. I love that. I was talking recently about overthinking and it was talking about how overthinking is lack of decisions. So like, we overthink when we don't make a decision, right? So sometimes if we just make a decision. So for example, someone reaches out, you know, Hey, you want to go have coffee and you start overthinking. Well, what if they don't like me? What if this? What if that? You know, instead of just going, yes, yeah, and just seeing what happens. And I really, that really resonated with me because I'm a bit, I can, I'm both depending on what we're talking about. I can be an overthinker, but I can, I'm getting better. I'm not as much of the overthinkers I used to be. That can be changed for anyone listening. Like that is not something that is just like who you are, like you can work to get out of that. But I'm a pretty quick decision maker, sometimes too, but so, yeah, so I think that that is really, really interesting. There's something else that you said earlier that I really liked because I can relate to it. And it was that you wanted to take that information and put it in your own language and your own hairstylist language. This is something that I felt when it came to my money coaching because the money coaching is everywhere. Like, like learning how to manage your money is you can find it anywhere, but it's very hard to find in a way that like resonates with like the creative mind with the, I do what I want mind with, you know, in a way that like I needed to hear, because I could hear the Ramses all day long and I'm like, fuck you. I don't want to do that. I want to play. Right? So I think it's interesting that you had something similar and for anyone listening who maybe has an idea, right, but they're like, there's so many people out there that are already doing it. Hmm. What is your message for them? Like, there's no one doing it how you do it, like, and the kind of new thing that I've just started very messy, which we'll surely go into, is one of the most saturated corners of coaching in the internet. And to be fair, I was the same and I was like, I had so much like mind-set bullshit around it for literally like two years and I got, I think a really good phase is when you get so sick of yourself. Do you ever get that where you're like, I just can't bear to sit in this and I hate indecision and I found myself in this really annoying phase of having made a decision. I keep thinking about the same thing. This is piss, I'm piss myself off. I'm actually just going to do this to stop annoying myself. And then as always, I did the thing. It was much easier than I thought it would be the, like, it was fine and results. Yeah, like all the time. Yeah. I will never learn this lesson, but do this again and again. And I'm literally in this really, really saturated competitive space. And I said today, I didn't, yesterday, I am enrolling people from, I'm charging more than what Amy Porterfield charges because we're charging the same but she charges US dollars at charge pounds. And I had this moment where I was like, oh my God, people are literally paying me more than they would pay Amy Porterfield for me is like the, you know, the head honcho in our, you know, in the world and right online coaching space. And that was really validating as well. And I was like, but also a bit scary. But I just thought I was like, it's because they know, because I resonate with them, because I speak in a way that I understand them fully and because a lot of them are coming from that world of her and beauty, like I know that exact path from being a fully booked stylist or scaling your business behind the chair to then get into the point where you like, I don't want to do this anymore on my body starting to say, no, what is my future financially like, can I get past this, this kind of income ceiling? So yes, there are other people who are like arguably much better and more experienced than me in the online coaching space, but they don't know that so specifically how I know that they haven't experienced that fully. So you have every single person has, even if you don't have a, like a quote unquote skill set, you have experience like I'm so convinced that every single person has something in them that other people would love to know about and you need to find those those people. Yeah, it's totally doable. Well, you are the magic, right? I had a friend say that about her business recently because she was talking about how there's other people out there doing what she's doing and she was trying to think of what makes her business unique and why someone should come to her. And she just was like, I'm the magic, me, I'm the, you know, and I'm like, damn, like I've been like repeating that in my brain because you get in your head. You know what I mean? Yeah, sure. Why would somebody hire me? Why am I the one when there's all these other people out there blah, blah, blah and it's like because of me, because of my integrity, because of the way that I show up, because you know, the way that I can speak to somebody and like, and it's like, sometimes that feels selfish in a way of like, I don't know, it's almost the opposite of imposter syndrome. So it feels weird, but like, it's true. Yeah. But I hire people based off of them as a human period, like if they're, if I like them and I resonate with them and they have like a skill set that I need to learn, like I would much rather pay so much more to work with somebody that I trust than somebody random person on the internet that has, you know, maybe a million more followers. Like, that doesn't, that doesn't equal integrity to me. No, I think that my kind of protocol, if you want to call it, that is they have to have either gotten results themselves in the exact specific thing that I want to do or have gotten other people results, because I find this argument funny when people go, oh, I wouldn't hire a, you know, I wouldn't hire a social media manager with not, with not many followers. I would if they'd helped other people to get loads of followers because it's still results. It's a bit like saying, oh, I wouldn't get a brain tumor removed by a surgeon who's never had a brain tumor. I don't care about that. I just want the person who's very good at getting rid of those, like, they've got the results for the people who don't need to necessarily append that themselves. But also, there has to be that point of I have to like them. I have to want to be in a space with them. I want to feel like I'm safe, you know, interacting with them and that for me is probably one of the most important things, because it's without sounding sort of wonky, like, it's quite a sacred kind of exchange for someone to invest in you and for you to help them and for them to put that trust in you, to help with their businesses if you deal. And it is when we work, when we hire coaches and mentors. So you've got to really want to work with that person and get on with them. But yeah, for me, I much prefer vulnerability, like, I don't really like now this whole very polished, perfect, same value produced. And I've been, I've worked with coaches like that, but that's not me. I mean, literally, if you're watching the video, like, I've literally been out on a walk, my fringe is really annoying me, my hair. It's like your rest. And I don't need to turn up with, like, the full production, the full shebang, and I worked with a mentor who is phenomenal and I paid $15,000 and I remember working through the classes and my husband was like, "Are they Zoom recordings?" I was like, "Yeah." And he was so surprised that it wasn't this, you know, highly produced course. And I was like, it could have been written on the back of, like, a scrap of paper and I wouldn't care because the content was so good and that, and that shifted so much for me because I thought, "Okay, I've bought this and this has worked for me and I've got results, like, okay, that just dissolved this idea of it has to be polished." Mm-hmm. Yep. I cannot agree more. One of my favorite educators, Mottie Woodard, if you've ever talked about marketing, yeah. If you have ever talked about marketing with me, I will direct you to his page. It's so good. I have bought all of his courses and that's what they are. They are literally just, usually they're his lives recorded. They are worth every penny, the amount of notes that I take. I would pay so much money. I can't wait. I want him to go out on tour, like, I will pay so much money on him to be in a room with him. And he just shows up how he is, you know, he's usually in a beanie, in a black t-shirt. And that's just, I like that. It feels like when I meet him in person, he's going to be the exact same person. Yes. That's such a compliment when people, everyone says to me, "Are you much taller than a foe? Even though I tell everyone that I'm tall, I'm six foot, but everyone's still surprised." No, you are tall. I'm only five foot. I am three. I know. It's because everyone else, like, Haley and Emma, who hang around with the loads of little coach in bubble, they're all so small, so I think just by comparison, I say much bigger. But everyone's like, "You're exactly the same." You sound the same. You speak the same, like, it's, it's, and I think that's a compliment, like, I hate the people to say, "Oh, you're so different in my life." Yes. I agree. I agree. Well, I had a one-on-one client one time. I will never forget her. I mean, she's probably going to listen to this. She knows who she is. We got on a consult call before she hired me, and she said, and I'll never forget this, and it was the, this is what my goal is for every single person that hires me. She got on the call, and she said, "I already knew I wanted to hire you. I just wanted to get on the call and make sure that you were the same person that I hear on your podcast." And I was like... Oh, it's amazing. It's the biggest compliment ever, and she's still, I mean, she's been an amazing client, all the things, but yeah. I think that that goes a long way, because there is a lot of, like, fakeness out there, and it's funny, because I went back and forth of, like, what is, like, fake, what is authentic, and what is just, like, I don't feel like sharing with the world, you know? Because social media is so interesting, where I can get in a spot where I feel like I have to constantly share everything with the outside world. If I'm going to a movie with my son, I'm going to post it something. And sometimes I'm like, "No, people want to see this." And then sometimes I'm like, "People don't need to see all of it." So I think there's an interesting, there's a very interesting balance there that our friend, Haley, actually, her voice comes in my head often with, you know, what is the purpose of posting this. And sometimes the purpose is, "Hey, I go to the movies with my son." Look at that. You know what I mean? And sometimes I have to not post something, because I'm like, "Ooh, I'm actually searching for some type of validation here. I'm actually not going to post this." Yeah. And it's really, really interesting. Very wise. Yeah. It's like, what's the, exactly that, what's the purpose, and I think it's funny, I'm really interested actually in the concept of, like, parasocial relationships and, like, that people, we all feel like we know so much about people because of what they share online. And, like, I'm shaking, like, a fair amount, not loads, but, you know, I do a lot of behind the scenes stuff, mainly I go for my pastry all the time, and, you know, the people see that stuff. And if I'm travelling, but there is a lot that people don't see. So when people see, when people, like, I feel like I know you so well, I'm like, "You don't. You just know what I share with you in the same way that I know what you share with me." But yeah, we did, we did a podcast episode of, "Is it vulnerability or is it oversharing?" And especially in the hair and beauty space, there are people where they're, like, very publicly having quite, you know, mental health struggles, or crying, and things like this, and, yeah, there is that argument of, like, we want, you know, being vulnerable is good. And if he'd lost me a lot, how I got over the whole thing of being visible online and doing live videos and stuff like that, and I just got really into, like, Brene Brown for a period where I was like, "Okay, I'm just going to listen to this," and, like, gifts of vulnerability and things like that, and I've had that really helpful, and realising that no one really cares that much, like, no one really cares a shit about how we sound or how we look really anyway. But yeah, there's definitely, like, a line for me, and also, like, once that, once stuff's out there, you can't take that back, and I think there's people who probably share stuff that I think you'll really regret that one day, or people will never forget that one post that you put on or that one video that you did. Yeah. But yeah, it is strange when, you know, say you go to events and stuff, and people obviously recognize that I'm very easy to recognize, because I'm, like, covered in tattoos, and, you know, everyone sees me all the time, but sometimes people say, "Oh, I'll never forget that thing that you said," and they'll repeat it back to you, and I'm like, "I don't even remember saying that." Yeah. Yeah. That's how starting messy started. I used to get so many people be like, "I thought of you today. I thought of you today. I started messy today," and I'm like, "Yeah, you say that all the time," and I'm like, "Do I?" And then that's how it evolved, because it was like, I do say that all the time. I mean, I always used to say perfectly imperfect, and then it kind of evolved into starting messy. But yeah, it's very interesting. Yeah, the vulnerability thing is very interesting. I like the saying, "Share from your scars, not your wounds. Get share after you've got through it," and that's what I try to remember, because there are some days where, now, Grana, I'm not one, I'll accidentally cry on my stories. There has been times where I've been saying something, and then I'll start crying, but I'm not going to, like, "Oh my God, I'm crying. Let me go grab my phone." Like, that doesn't feel good to me, so it's, but it feels good to some people. So... That's fine. Who am I always watching? Yeah. Like, you know, it's like, who am I to judge, right? Yeah, like, I don't, you know, I'm not, it's just what's okay for you. Sometimes when people put reels on them, like, "How do you remember to grab your phone to the one crying? Like, the last thing I want to do is like, "Oh, I'm just going to get a good angle." But it's their means of making content, and that's all, like, you know, everyone can do what they want, but it's, I have seen people later on regret, they're in so much personal stuff because they've had issues where clients have been, like, "Oh, I don't think you keep it. I want to cancel my contract with you because you're obviously going through it and it can diminish. It can shift people's levels of, like, the perception of your professionality or trust, which sucks because we're all just hearing and all this stuff goes on in the background. But I've seen brands, like, draw people because they're, like, your volatile online or this doesn't align with our, you know, our stuff and it's tricky, yeah. It's all human experience stuff, but it's, there are consequences to it whether we like that or not, or whether we agree with that or not. Yes. The consequences that, so that is something that I am ingrained in my nine-year-old right now because it's like, "Hey, you can, yeah, sure, you can do whatever you want, but you're going to have consequences, so, you know, keep that in mind." That's funny because I have this conversation with my dad who's, like, in his 60s, so maybe you'll have this conversation for a while, which was freedom of speech and not freedom of consequences. Like, you can say whatever you want to say, but you are not free from the consequences of those things. Like, they, you know, we need to consider that. So, there you go, the lesson continues. Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. Okay. So, you've got this new thing happening. Tell me about it. Tell me, kind of, you were resistant to it for a while. Tell me how you just decided, you know what, I think it's just time to go all in and tell the people that are listening what it is. Yeah. Okay. And this is, this is like a scoop because I'm not, I'm not like officially told anyone, well, it's, it's kind of launched in a very, very messy way, which I'll go into, but this is the first time I'll, like, tell this story about it. Um, so, obviously, I was a hairdresser and I, like, I did have extensions, then I started doing business coaching, which was very much like a little baby side hustle from 2018. Then pandemic, obviously, the salon had to be shut down for the lockdowns and I just, I had a very miniature identity crisis as I think we all did, which was who am I, if I'm not a hairdresser. This was a very good lesson for me. In there. Yeah. Yeah. For anyone listening, do not wrap up your identity and the work that you do, because when it is taken away from you, it is horrific. So, you can do what you do, but it isn't you, and that was a great, great lesson for me, then. Um, so anyway, kind of went all in on, on the coaching stuff, did actually go back and do her after the lockdown, because I had a lot of people pleasing around my clients and it took me till, took me till needing, needing back surgery at the age of about 32 to finally go, okay, I'm off the hook and I can stop doing her and I said to my clients, I'm going to have surgery, then I'm not going to come back. Um, so anyway, since about like 2020, 2021, I've been like quote unquote successful with like your mind coach and like enough that my husband works with me and, you know, we make good money and stuff like this. So since then I've had people asking me like, can you help me with this? Like how do you do, like webinars, how do you do paid ads? How do you decide what to teach and, you know, all of, all of those kind of questions. And I had a lot of like very private conversations, I'm like, I'll just, you know, go and zoom with you or, you know, all of this like behind the scenes stuff. And then, um, I need to tell you this story about this like, weird manifestations thing. This is like the worst thing in the still at the back end of last year is maybe on September, we have a consultant who we meet with every two weeks like business, fully enough, it's the guy who taught the first ever business course, which is also a weird story. Yeah, yeah. So when I, when I learned from him, I wasn't like, oh my God, one day I want to work with a guy like this because he was telling me about all these amazing businesses that he helped. And anyway, it took me like since 2018 and we hired him last year. So that's a cool, like full circle thing. So anyway, we don't love that. I know my life's full of these things. So we, we had our meeting and we're always kind of thinking like, you know, what's the next thing and what's, you know, we've got like a five year plan. And one of the things was we called it the IP day. So it was just like in person working with people to be who want to be called squares. And this was maybe September last year and I thought, oh, I've just no time. I've not got the capacity like that will be like a next year thing, but we've, we roll like we kind of came up with a few ideas like bullet points. And he told me the price, he said, I think you should charge this. And honestly, I was like, oh my God. And I teach money stuff, but it's about money mindset. And I was like, no, no, I mean, I always say, even though it's a money code, I still have my own money things I'm still working through. Yeah. We're all a work in progress. We have like the awareness, which is a good thing. So I had this whole like, oh my God, but it's just one day of work, which it isn't like I can do the whole launch support stuff. And he actually crossed it out and he said, no, it needs to be more than this. I mean, I added a number 50% on and honestly, I could have been sick, but anyway, and I don't know if you do this, but I really keep in mind people that I'm creating stuff for, like I have real people in my head because it makes it just so much easier to think about the offer and the messaging and stuff. And I wrote down, I wrote down three people's names, like real people that I've worked with. I thought these would be such a good fit for like where they are in business, they're really coachable, I could really help these people with this particular thing. And anyway, I thought, right, I'll kind of forget about it, I'll come back to it in a few months. And I think it was the next day or the day after that, the first person whose name I wrote down messaged me and said, Maddy, would you help me with my, I want to do, I want to do an online course. I don't know what, I'd like how to do it. Would you help me with it? And I was like, she's very woo as well. And I said, I need to tell you this. And I was like, I wrote your name down two days ago, like as the person, it's insane. And I said, I was like, look, this is the price. And I literally was like, and I know it's wild, but I said, I guarantee that I guarantee the ROI, like, I know that we'll make it back if you do what we work on. And she just was like, it's a lot, but leave it with me, came back to me a few days later, and it was like, can you meet in like a week from today? And I was like, yeah, because I do that in person. So they come up to me in person and we spend like a day or two together. And she's literally in the first launch that we worked on, in the first two hours, she made 68,000 pounds, just like $80,000 or something, in two hours, in the first two hours of open car, and she has now made a quarter of a million pounds as well, so I'm more in dollars in with this one offer that we came up with, with this one launch. And I was so daft for me, I was like, why the hell am I not doing this? Like, this is insane. But I still kept it like, behind closed doors and I worked with a couple of other people and this same, obviously like word gets around and then people were like messaging me, like, I heard you did this. Can you help me with this one? Yeah, I don't have this mindset thing of, well, I need a way to, I've done this, I need to have done it with five people to make sure I definitely know what I'm talking about. Right. Because I was like, well, I've done it, I've helped this other person to do it. But I still, my mindset was like, no, no, you need more evidence. And then I had this whole thing of, you know, I have, I have a lot of like peers and friends who are online coaches, but none of them were teaching other coaches, they were all teaching like her and beauty professionals or other industry and a hard mindset thing of, who do you think you are? Like, do you think you're better than all of these people? Because it's like, it's like a level up in a sense, like the I could teach them. And it's like looking back, the most ridiculous thing ever because like what it just, that would just make no sense, but that was very strong in me at that time. And so anyway, so I thought, okay, I'm going to just start, I knew what the long term plan was. I thought I'm going to make a course which sort of distills this one to one work that I do to help people to like come up with a course, come up with a launch, do the launch, debrief it. Like, how can you scale it different like ways to relaunch it stuff like that. So I started in your page because I thought this isn't really relevant to the, my previous page, which was all for having beauty entrepreneurs, I thought I'll start on your page. And honestly, there's something, do you know when people hate the idea of having no followers, it's so nice to have no followers because it's like, oh, I believe it. It's, yeah, like on, on my other page, I've got just over 30,000 and it's like it feels like the stakes is so low. I had, I've just hit today 400 followers, which feels really quite exciting. But like at the beginning, I had less than a hundred followers. I had one post, literally just an intro post that people knew it was me. And I was just in stories. And my engagement in stories, like the conversations that I was having and people, the minute that I said, oh, I'm thinking about doing this, everyone was like, tell me when it's ready. And I was like, okay, maybe I need to do this. And I knew that I was going to do it a few months from now and I thought I'm just going to put like a pre-sale offer. I mean, you can't get messier than this. I've got no branding at the moment. I have no website. I have no sales page. I literally have just linked it to my existing business because I was like, I can't even bother to set up a home, you think. I have an order form and the existing Stripe account. And I just thought, that's it. I'm just going to write like five bullet points on an order form and just send it to people who want to be sent it. Yeah. And that's the launch. It's the messiest. And I'm going to do like a big, a big launch when I open it officially because I also want to teach. I love how meta our world is of like, you can, um, the blues, for anyone watching the video, not watching the video, when you do an air-cool with your fingers, loads of blues pop up. The blues pop up. If you do your thumbs up, well, I'm on a computer and I don't think it'll do it, but it's like insane. It's every time I was doing something on Zoom and I said something and put my hands like this and fireworks came from the movie and I was like, I don't know what's happening. Anyway, I'm literally having calls with like, lawyers and I'm like, I don't know what's happening. I know what's happening. I'm literally having calls with like, lawyers and I'm like, I don't know the blues and the blues and so forth and so forth. It's so fun. It's so destructive. Yeah. But I love, one thing I love about our world is, I don't know if you're in this mystery, but do you know when you enroll on a course and then you're also, you kind of are as a student, but you're also watching how they do everything. So we also kind of are very aware of like, how they're launching it or what their sales strategy is or what made you buy and I love, I really like that about the industry stuff. I'm literally going to show people this is how you guys actually joined right at the beginning, but also this is what happens if you do like a big quote unquote, like, you know, bigger live launch, but you can get numbers and you can get enrollments with literally nothing. But like, no sales page, no big websites. I think so many people don't start until they're like, I have to have everything perfect and I need to register my domain. I don't even have an email address. Yeah. I have one. Yeah. That is why again, the starting messy exists because that is exactly what I want people to understand is that you don't have to have all of the puzzle pieces. No. You literally just find a couple outside pieces and the rest will eventually fall into place. And honestly, I think that if you wait until everything is perfect to do something, you're going to realize really quickly that you're going to have to go back and redo a whole bunch of shit. Yeah. Yeah. So it's funny. I'm glad we're having this conversation though, because I'm in a place right now since pivoting with the whole starting messy thing is I have. So I've launched a new coaching package, but I haven't, well, let's put it this way. I haven't fully launched it. It's been kind of the behind the scenes thing. I have no sales page. I have, I don't have a website at all right now because I was, had one of those like nothing feels aligned. I'm burning everything to the ground moment. Yeah. So I'm just, I'm just coming soon, mrjain.com page. I have a checkout and that's it. And I have a calendly link to like, hey, you want to work with me, let's get on a call. And that's it right now. And I keep telling myself, I need the website. I need the, I need all the things. I need all the things. And then everything will fall into place. And I'm like, no, Missy, you need to work with what you have and what you know. And that's fine. And that's enough. But it's hard sometimes when you see, and we'll go back to kind of seeing the outside world doing it one way, and we see this perceived success, which by the way is perceived success. Because I have a lot of conversations behind the scenes of people that I thought were making all kinds of money that are not, but it looks like it on Instagram. So keep that in mind. But we see all these, you know, perceived successes. And it's not always what we need or what works for us, or what is going to work for our audience. Would you agree with that? 100%. Yeah. Like I think I've said this on our podcast as well, like I think there are two camps. I think there are people who pretend to make more than they do. And there are people who are doing very well, but they don't really talk about it. And it's like one of those two sides, but what's worked really, really well for me in the new one? And obviously for transparency, like I'm leapfrogging from an existing business. So I'm not, you know, let's be honest, I'm not starting with like, I've left a full-time corporate job. And I've just enrolled like a bunch of people. But this to say like there, there are always people in an audience that you've got, or as a community that you've got, who are ready to work with you. So all I needed was like the first 10 people to come and follow me. And they're like, obviously the most interested to work with you. And I think people love that I'm super transparent. So whenever I share something about like, okay, this is what this person's doing or this is what I've done, it's like, yes, but that took me like the other day. I did a live yesterday and I said, if you could see my year on year, you could see quite clearly like the point at which I would have stepped out and then the point that I'm really glad that I didn't. And someone said, oh, I'd love to see that. So I thought, oh, you know, I'm a bit of a nerd. I was like, I'll make a little chart because I wanted a visual of like literally we made a loss the first year. And so many people would go, this doesn't work. And it was like loss, it was like 2000 in the entire year, 3000 in the entire year. And then it just shoots up to like, I think over 100 K and I got something in year four. If I would have just looked at the first, second and third year and thought, oh, this isn't working. This is always going to be a side hustle. Like you have to put the reps, it's like going to the gym, isn't it? It's like you don't just wake up tomorrow with a six pack. You have to keep getting up and you have to go when you don't want to go. And you have to think about you, you know, considering your nutrition and makes decisions that might not feel that thrilling in the moment, but it's all for this, you know, the result that you want. And I think that's what pisses me off about a lot of marketing is you can make 30K in the months with no audience and nothing and overnight and it's like, you, I think the people can be incredibly successful and I think there's never actually been a better time for people to make a lot of money. You know, you don't need to do the traditional route that our parents or grandparents have to go down, but we have to be realistic and think it is those reps like we have to keep showing up and you have, it's like a lot, even now, when I do a live launch, I'm sure if you're wrestling with this, day one, great, final day, great, middle of the launch, oh my god, you will make no saves and you will, you want to just try, you will try, you will say, and while everyone who's going to buy it is boarded, why am I even embarrassing myself by showing up and talking about it and how can I have enthusiasm, I just want to close my car and say, well, listen, you know, I've got my few people, I'm going to stop, but you have to show up with like the same, if not more enthusiasm and intensity right the way until the end because the magic is at the end, like the last, oh, everyone buys at the end and then everyone wants to buy, I've had people buy like a couple hours after. Yeah, yeah, the deadline dances, yeah, and then, I mean, God, I have a like a kind of high ticket group coaching program, at the minute I only open it once a year, but I used to do twice a year, we closed cart for that, in fact, I'm up to week seven now, and I'm getting messages now going, can I join, sorry, seven, seven, seven weeks, I've been delivering it for some time, like, no, I don't have a membership, but I closed it because I, turns out I'm not a membership person, but I don't want to say that, I'll tell you why I didn't like it, just in case anyone's thinking about this and is in a similar position, so many people picture membership is like the be all an end all, you know, monthly recurring revenue, imaginary from the first of the month all your bills are paid, which is a very sexy concept. The way I think you've got to be so mindful of how you like to work, I am like a commitment full in a lot of ways, I felt like I was in a never ending relationship with like hundreds of people, and although I really enjoyed working with those people, I hated the never ending as well the type of work that I like to do is like transformative work, so I like to be able to say, by the end of our time together, you will have raised your prices, or you will have reduced your work behind the chair, or you will have launched a course, like, I like that because I know that I've done a good job, and I know that it's worked, and mine was a money membership, and although there's never ending things to talk about, it's... I just found it like every month I was like, I need a guest, I need to come up with a session, and you know, you could obviously be really prepared, that's also not how I work, I like to do things, like quite on the fly. I don't know, I loved it and it did well, and people were very sad after you went and closed it, but I just was honest with them, and I was like, this isn't how I enjoy how to work. I do double with it, I said to Haley recently, I think I want to do a membership, she was like, no, you do not. So she was like, I'm with you, I've heard too many people have closed it for that exact reason, and I'm like, hmm, I don't like that either, I'm with you, I like an end date, and if somebody wants to continue to work with me after the end date, that's great, then we'll just have a different end date. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's awesome, retention is everything, right? But like, yeah, they'll kind of, yeah, no, I don't know, I don't know if I don't think I like that very much. I think there's almost like a scarcity mindset of the membership of like, I just want people to keep paying me every month, because if the container comes to an end, then they go. But actually, what my experience is, is they get to the end of the program, as long as you've done a good job and they've got the outcome, they are literally like, "Maddie, can we work together on the next thing?" And that's all I do, that's how I build out programs is we get one result, and then the position that they're in at the end of that, it's like, okay, what might be the next thing? And I just listen to people and see what they want to do. And my last program in Bossie Salons called Breakthrough, and the whole thing of that is for fully booked stylists or nail technicians who want to drop a day a week of client work without sacrificing profit. So we help them to do that. So the next natural thing that they do is, okay, now, how can I take that day and use it to then make more money and a lot of them want to be coaches and educators? So I was like, okay, I'll make this thing. And I'm seeing in the data for the enrollments for the new called course Creator Club, most of them have come through that program, off through my other program. So we have a really high retention rate, and you can just buy knowing what the next offer is in it. Not even like in a strategic way, just listen to your people and make good programs that solve problems, and you will never have a shortage of people who want to work with you at that next level. And that feels much easier to me than. And it gives people choice as well, like I want people to feel like they've got the choice and autonomy of how closely do I want to work with Maddy, like in what do I want to work one to one, do I want to work in a group, do I want something kind of like self-paced and give those sort of options to people as well? Yeah, I love that because everyone does learn a little differently. Like I used to love courses, and then I used to love group coaching, and now I'm only hiring one-on-one. I don't watch the courses anymore. I don't have time, but I can show up for a call when I'm talking to somebody. And I think that's important to understand as a consumer as well, how do you work best? How do you learn best? Because I think there's people out there that are buying courses and they're never watching it. And it's like when I just wasting money. Yeah, like the statistics are horrendous on course completion. We can see on our dashboard who completes our stuff. Someone asked me the other day about this new one, and she said, "How will you keep me accountable?" And I was like, "No, no, I don't keep you accountable. You keep yourself accountable. I'll make the content and I'll do the emails and I'll send the reminders and stuff." But I was like, "It's digital. I can't physically come and drunk you out of bed and make you show up and do the work." But yeah, I'm the same as you now. I think my next thing is that I want to join a mastermind. I think that's where I'm at at the moment. I think I do like courses, but I love buying courses and they're not doing them. Which is funny because I know exactly what they're doing. I'm like, "Okay, I'm getting funnels, but I still do it. I still buy them." Right, and that's the thing, right? I know what this is, but do I want it or not? I'm impressed about the process. What I'm really hoping starts being more of a trend is taking courses and making them audio, because I have gotten to the point now where when I go for my walks, I like to listen to something that I listen to over and over again. I like study it. I would love for courses to be where I can just be doing something and then just keep listening to it. I'm starting to hear people talk about that, but I think that I hope that that becomes more of a thing. I'm thinking about doing it with my new thing as well. It's not going to be for everyone, but podcasting is so popular. It's like, why not put educational content in there as well, especially if it's something that can be taught just audibly. I don't know, just something I've been thinking about. Okay, so you're in this new phase. Is it going well? I mean, how are you feeling? Yeah, really good. We're at your close car day to day, so I expect there'll be the last minute sort of flurry, but at the minute, we've done like just under £15,000 in revenue. For something that you didn't even really think about doing yet? No, it won't start until September, so they're getting it on a pre-sale, and I just did some bonus strategy calls. I was like, they always like to give people obviously stuff for joining early. They haven't happened yet, and yeah, it's been so much easier, like in the course creation world, not all money is the same, and not all launches are the same, and I've done launches that have felt physically, mentally exhausting, that have cost me so much money to do in terms of like ads and the tech and everything else. And then the delivery of it's maybe being more labor intensive, and then that's why I love to do an VIP day, because I was like, this feels like the easiest work that I've done, not because it was easy, but it just comes to me so easily, and I was literally sat in person, they were like asking me things, I was asking them things, we kind of distilled it down to like, okay, this is what it's going to be, this is going to be the launch, that actually felt easier to me than going, right, I'm going to put together, like we've built out an app before, or putting together all of these, like we sources and setting everything up, and I was programmed to like, deliver week by week and writing every email, and yes, I think it's just felt so natural, it's probably the word, and it's made me feel so excited as well to do the quote, quote, big launch, although we actually do, I kind of don't need to in part of me, so like, maybe I'll just do the same thing in September and just go look, you know what it is, there you go, I only want to kind of do it to show people more to teach people inside of it, these are your options, like yes, you will get bigger numbers with a bigger launch, but also if you just don't have capacity to do that, you could actually still get really good numbers with something, like you've got options, that's what I want people to see is that like, that isn't just one way, because they're all local, just who say, you know, you have to do high ticket group, you have to do one-on-one, you shouldn't do anyone to one, you have to have a membership, you have to do webinars, webinars are dead, like there's so much conflicted information, and I just want to show people like, there's loads of different ways, they all work for different ways, we just find what works for you and your audience, and just what you've got capacity for, like, it is very exhausting, launching is really tiring, delivery can be really tiring, and I don't want people to just be obsessed that they have to follow the exact pathway that a person's laid out just because it's worked for them, that doesn't mean that it's the right thing for everyone. Yeah, I absolutely love that, that's been kind of the phase that I've been in, it's just like, you know what, I'm tired of this is how you should do this, this is how you should do that, I'm like, fuck it all, I'm going to show up how I want to go up, if it doesn't work, I still learn something, it's kind of work, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, and it's like, so it's been interesting, because I feel better, you know, I haven't really launched anything yet, so I can't say it's working yet financially, but I feel really good, so it's like, okay, let's just see how this is going to look, you know what I mean? So it's very interesting, there's a lot of shuds out there, a lot, are you on threads yet? I am on threads, but only on the other page, and I've started getting loads of, you know, you get the suggested ones, and obviously some algorithms, I'm looking at them and I'm getting more, but I am seeing so many threads of threads about people who were sucked into, in particular, the mastery cell rights, the faceless Instagram TikTok, who are like, I have lost a bunch of money, I've exhausted myself, this hasn't worked, and I'm not going to say I told you so, yeah, that's what I am doing, because if you are on threads, it is quite a negative place, I mean, I still get some like, positivity, because I'm trying to be on there, I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to do the platforms, right? Like, and it's like, wow, this is like, if you are trying to create courses, if you are an educator, if you are a coach, this app alone will make you quit. Yeah, like a couple of people that I've been mentored like under have said, and especially women, like the minute you start talking about your success in business, or the success you've got for your clients, threads hated, it's just become Twitter, it was really nice at the beginning when it was like positive, and everyone was like, a whole new world, and yeah, there was a hot mess over here, and now it's like, you're either getting people telling you you're bullshit, or you're getting, I've gotten so many like cold, cold DMs of trying to sell me shit, because I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, I don't know you, I don't like this. I think it's about me, but I'm not 100%, but it's a bit too coincidental with who this person is, and the timing of me, on the new page I shared about being like a multiple six figure coaching company, and straight away it was a guy, because it's always a fucking guy, I was like, all of these people sharing multiple six figures, well, yeah, you can do that in turn over but it's about profit, and I was like, oh yeah, we do six figures in profit, FYI, so I was just like, yeah, and I thought, okay, that's my experience of threads, is that everyone's just there to go, no, you're not, that didn't happen, or you're lying, but just, I don't know if this helps you, Missy, but, and if any of you listeners, I am not doing the multi-platform thing, I tried to do it with the old business, I found it exhausting, like, I know that I could make much more money if I was on TikTok, but mentally, it's not, I just cannot do it, it's not for me, I am just on the new one, it's literally Instagram, mainly stories, I've done some reels, I think I've got 20 posts at the moment, yeah, Instagram stories works with you well for me, obviously you've got to do, you know, reels if you want to do audience build, if you, I'm obviously bringing people over from an existing audience, so if you were starting actually from zero, um, many chat, like, absolutely obsessed with the whole DM account, DM a word, I'm sending them a Google doc, and then it's like, if you want to work with me here, so, when I was out of launch, and when I, when I, when I close a moment tonight, it will literally be a Google form, which is what you need help with, I will link the back up to them and go, these are the options, what's also worked really well for me and this is personal outreach, and I think that's where a lot of people get very, um, it's a bit like big fear booths to go, I'm not going, you know, I've got this amazing, slick funnel, like the whole point is that it doesn't rely on me, yeah, but what does it take to just reply to a message or send someone a voice note or just have an actual conversation with someone, like, um, my old yanto said, used to say that like sales is a full contact spot, and I totally agree with that, like, you, especially at a higher price point, like, people need to feel comfortable with someone and they need to know that you can solve their problem and like, it doesn't take much to just ask them questions, like, where are you at with this? Are you, have you started a course yet? Do you have any ideas yet? Um, what are you goals around this? We've, we've seen that translate into people and rolling because we haven't just been so foolish to say, build it and they'll come, you know, the office, great, let's just put it out there and people come to us and I love that, I love speaking to people directly as well, that feels really nice for me. Um, but it's not hard, none of it's hard is in. It's, I'd rather sit in DM a person and go, I'm going to build out this really fancy brand and the website and because of DM, we'll do this job much better. Not easy. Well, and for me, that's why I got into this is for connection. So like, I want to connect with people. Like when I say on this podcast, when at the end, when I'm like DM me, if you like had any aha moments, like I mean it, like I want to have a calm calm. Yeah, like really, like, I'm not just saying that and I'm not going to just sell you something. That's, you know what I mean? Like, I, I truly am here for connection period, you know, and if that turns into a client, then great. But if it doesn't, that's not like, oh, because I have wanted to work with people before, had a really like weird interaction in the DMs of like, just not like engaging. And I'm like, I don't want to work with them anymore. Like, I thought that there was some kind of connection. Now I'm like, oh, they were just trying to sell me this thing. Like it feels different. There's a bad energy exchange there that I just don't, I'm not here for. Some of my favorite DMs on the new page of literally being talked about like when Taylor Swift's new album came out. And I was just like in this stuff. That's, I love Instagram stories because you can do, obviously you do a bit of like talking about your offer, but I'll be like, people know me for pastries that I love pastries. So people will be like, asking me like, my Q&A's. I'm always like, ask me business stuff when people are like, what's your favorite croissant? But I love that. I love, I love those DMs. I love that this people, like I had a message from a woman who'd set up a completely different page. She had no face on a channel name, but I recognized that a handle was very similar to one that I used to speak to. And I said, oh, it was, I said, it's been really nice to speak to Danielle. And she was like, oh my God, you knew who I was from. And I said, yeah, of course I did, because I remember, I remember like everyone that I messaged and I get lots of messages, but I, I'm much, I love to have those connections. So when we meet in person or we meet in an event, someone will go, Oh, I've got a dog called Milo. I'm like, yes, I know exactly who you are. We had a chat about this other thing. And yeah, you don't want to feel obviously there's an energetic thing and you've got to make sure you're okay with capacity, but I don't want to feel like untouchable. I don't want to feel like on a pedestal or in this like back to the parasocial relationship thing. I don't want people to think that I'm this like otherworldly alien creature, like I'm just a person the same as them who you can't DM me, you can't voice note me, like, I love, I love that stuff. And that's how I obviously met you and Jody and how I met Haley, like, really great things can happen from those, you know, little connections online as well. And that's such a cool part of it. Yep, I agree. 1000 1000%. Matty, I love you so much. I knew this is a good conversation. I have to cut it off because I feel like we could keep going. We're gonna forget. We're recording. So I want you to tell everybody where they can find you, tell them about your podcast, all of the things. Yeah, sure. So if you're a heron beauty person, I always struggle to say this in Americans really struggle to hear what I'm saying. So it's in English, boss your salon. American, it's boss your salon. It's called Boston. It's my accent, it's obviously insane. It's B-O-S-S, boss your salon. I will put all of it in the show now. Please tell me with some show notes, Missy. And then the new one is It's Muddy Cook. So I-T-S, Muddy is M-A-D-D-I. It's seedable. Okay, that's the, like, course career. Even if you're just interested in, like, I do lots of travel. I'm obsessed with air miles. Pastries. Pastries, that's all happening over there. Both thrilling. And the podcast that I do with Haley is called Coffee Isn't Lunch. It is more for her and beauty people, but it's boundaries. It's probably good for anyone who is an entrepreneur or especially in a service-based business. You might get some something from that as well. I love it. I love it. Muddy, thank you so much. I enjoy everything that you put out, our conversations, all of the things. And this will be the last one. Yeah, thanks, Missy. Once again, thank you so much for listening to the Starting Missy podcast. I hope that this inspires you to get out of your own way and start messy. If you like what you heard, please share it, leave a review, and tag us on social media. I'll talk with you on the next one. [BLANK_AUDIO]
