What does the movie "Inside Out" teach us about leadership?
My conversation with Wayland Lum from Copperbox Leadership Advisory, who brought up "fear is the precursor to courage," reminded me of Joy and Sadness in "Inside Out."
The movie is all about human emotions. And there's this interesting dynamic between Joy and Sadness in the movie. The big lesson is that you can't really appreciate joy if you've never experienced sadness. I see a similar principle in what you were saying about fear and courage. They are not as separate as we might think. They are two sides of the same coin.
In this episode, you'll find out why fear isn't your enemy, but rather your courage's hype man. Wayland also shared his 8 principles of modern leadership. His moves from California to Mexico to Chicago and London. From Nvidia to Chicago Booth to Korn Ferry, now building his own leadership advisory practice in Austin, Texas. Lastly, his views on the AI coaching.
Episode Breakdown:
00:14—Welcome and Introductions: Meet Your Human Host (While Human Intelligence is still Valued)
02:54—The Great Escape: Why Wayland decided to ditch the cushy corporate life and bet on himself. Spoiler: It wasn't for the free snacks
11:33—"We Develop Modern Leaders to Face the Biggest Business Challenges": How Wayland Defines Modern in the Context of Leadership?
15:33—Wayland's Eight Principles of Modern Leadership:
- Get Grounded in Core Purpose
- Pick up the Torch of Leadership
- Understand the Origins of Humanity
- Embrace Life's Stages and Seasons
- See in Systems
- Nature as Majestic Teacher
- Shackles of Time Forged by Humans
- Technologies as Tools
24:48—Wayland on AI coaching: "Coaching involves human connection, empathy, and understanding deeply personal experiences. We must ask ourselves, is an interaction with AI what we want, or do we seek genuine human connection and support?"
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(upbeat music) - Hi everyone, welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer. I'm your host, Vince Chan. Today's guest is from Austin, Texas, in the United States. Wayland Blonde. His career in HR has nothing short of remarkable. Back in college, he studied industrial and organizational psychology. Then, after graduation, he worked at some of the biggest and most influential institutions in the world, including the highest valued company of the present day and video and a global organizational consulting firm, Corn Ferry. He also spent eight years in Chicago and London at Chicago Booth School of Fitness, helping MBA students shape their career futures. Now, he's in Texas running his own leadership practice. On this show, we'll explore three areas of interest. First, his career evolution from big corporations to consulting, to business school, and private practice. Second, the eight principles of modern leadership he creates for his leadership clients. Third, his vision for human and AI coaching partnerships. Let's get started. Wayland, welcome to our show. Finally, I got you on the call with me. Yeah, that was great. Thanks for having me, Vincent. I'm looking forward to our conversation. If my memory serves me right. Last time we met in person, it was in London. And last time, for where did Texas? It was before COVID for South by Southwest. Time flies, yet I'm happy that we've kept in contact we've reunited at some point. And now you come to my show to share your wisdom and insights with the audience. Thank you so much. How are you doing? I'm doing well, Vince. Yeah, it's another ball-me-ed day in Austin, Texas. And I'm looking forward to the summer as we chat about before. So, yeah, and also excited to be with you and have a great conversation. Wayland, let's start with your history. Your career in HR has been nothing short of remarkable. Back in college, you studied industrial and organizational psychology. Then after graduation, you've worked at some of the biggest and most influential institutions in the world, including the highest value company of the present day, NVIDIA, a global organizational consulting firm, CoinFairy. You've even spent eight years in Chicago and London shaping the careers of MBA students at the top one business school, Chicago Booth. Now, you're in tactless, running your own leadership practice. Can you walk us through your career evolution? Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Vince. So, I think early on, going back to undergrad, I knew early on that I had a desire to melt the disciplines of psychology and business. And so, it was a very easy choice for me to study industrial organizational psychology. I did that as soon as I stayed, go Spartans. And from that experience launched my career into HR, which got me close to talent, organizational talent, first in Silicon Valley, then high-tech, and then more broadly, across to New York, and then other parts of the country as well. And I would say, Vince, the thing that has been a prevailing theme in my career is how to work with and provide value to the best talent in the world. And so, if you look at my career trajectory, it's really been a journey and a sort of quest, if you will, to find who those individuals are or those group to people and be able to work closely with them to really help them to develop their maximum potential and become the, now, the folk that I have now, the leaders that they're meant to become. And by doing so, we know that the world is more positively impacted and becomes a better place. Here's what I find truly admiring and courageous of you. You've taken the leap from these large prestigious organizations to running your own leadership practice. Many people will shine away from that, taking to the comfort zone, this stable paycheck, and the prestige of a big corporate name and a nice piece of scar. But you did not. What was the pivotal aha moment that let you down this path of building your own practice? What was there a specific experience that made you think? This is it. I just need to do this. And once you made that decision, how did the transition actually play out? Yeah, so the decision was really many years in the making and it really started as I coached a lot of the leaders that I work with and understand more about them. It really does start with early formative experiences, right? Growing up, when I was thinking about career and stuff, I actually thought I was going to be an artist. My dad, he was a graphic artist. oil painting, using Prismacolor drawing, et cetera. And that creativity has always stayed with me. And then when I moved into business psychology, industrial organizational psychology, it wrote that creativity and wanting to innovate really manifested itself in now this new area of interest for me that became my career. And so I always had that. And when I was at these larger organizations, I felt that I wasn't fully able to express that sort of creativity and maybe perhaps fully work with leaders in the way that I wanted, which would be much deeper, more transformational and really wanting them to make significant changes in terms of who they were and then in turn, make changes in who they were as leaders. One thing that I often coach my clients on, and indeed as coaches and consultants, particularly as coaches, we have and leaders, we've got to walk our talk. And so we cannot simply be coaching other leaders on what they may need to do and how they need to change, but we also need to step into our own change ourselves and be held accountable for that. And so I'd often coach my leaders to be bold, courageous in their decision-making, to really go with their intuition, follow their heart and really step out into the directions in which they believe they need to go. And when it came down to the fundamental question I asked myself, is way, are you going to stay within a large organization, rely on the reputation of this firm, the resources, the beautiful steel and glass building that you walk into every day and with all the nice facilities and the office environment that you have privilege of having access to? Or are you going to go step out and bet on yourself? And when I framed the question like that, Vince, the answer became very clear. I had to go step out and bet on myself as I would have coached and encouraged my leaders that I work with to do. And I can say that I have not regretted a single moment. That's been absolutely amazing. - I am 200% agreeable with your choice in walking the walk and talking the talk. In a world where a lot of people just talk, a lot of times they will talk very, very loud without much substance at all. Walking the walk and talking the talk becomes very precious and courageous. Unfortunately, it is also something that is silenced by the noise in the world. But that's what makes a true leader. - Absolutely great. You are a coach, yet I'm curious. Have you ever been on the other side of the coaching relationship? What was it like being coached? And how has that experience shaped your approach with your own clients today? - Yeah, early on in my career when I was just starting out at HR, I actually did hire a coach for myself. And my coach, the reason why I hired him, this is way back in the, gosh, early 2000s, I wanted to become a coach and therefore I thought a good way to do that would be to get mentorship and be able to learn from a really experienced executive coach. And I remember I think one of the most important things that he taught me 'cause he used to continuously push me and they whaling, you can do this. You can work with these types of leaders. You can have the type of impact that you wanna have with a certain level of leader. And at the time of insight, I didn't quite believe him or I didn't feel ready. And that's probably understandable given I was much younger and didn't have the experience and the tools. And I would say even the life experience that I have now. However, that experience of working with him has influenced the way that I develop others. And so I'm always pushing them to be more than what they've envisioned themselves being at this point in time. And I do that with my team and certainly do that with the client leaders that I work with as well. And what I found is that when you have that expectation of people more often than not, they're able to rise to the occasion and they will become more than they have thought possible. And that's really awesome to see. I think in terms of coaching area, I highly recommend that to anybody and whatever sort of aspect of your life that you might want coaching for, I do encourage you to explore that. Of course, you need to find the right person, the right fit. But I found it for myself to be tremendously rewarding. I still work with some business coaches here and there to help me with thought partnership and just being a good counterpoint or a good thought partner as I think about growing my own business and also how I am leading others, so. - On your LinkedIn profile, you have this statement. We develop modern leaders to face the biggest business challenges. Speaking of leaders, who are the people you typically work with? Can you paint a picture for listeners of the kinds of leaders you code? - Yeah, absolutely. And that statement is talking about walking the talk and we develop modern leaders to face their biggest challenges. That is really a derivation also of what the vision of Copperbox is, which is to prepare leaders to confront and address the greatest challenges of our time. And that is both our vision. It's also an aspirational goal that we have for our firm. And it goes beyond the realm of business and into areas such as government policy, certainly large big problems that the world faces, such as climate change and misinformation, loneliness, et cetera. And so that's our aspiration. Now, how do we do that in more sort of purposeful and day-to-day terms is through our work with business leaders? And so, one area that we are very focused on and do a lot of work in is private equity and supporting private equity operating companies and their executives. As we know, private equity moves at a very fast pace. Firms have investment pieces that they need to achieve and fulfill. And they do that through the talent that they have at their portfolio companies. A lot of our work is really helping those leaders to quickly identify the areas of their leadership that need to be, the gaps need to be quickly closed and to really partner with them closely at pace in order to do that. And what I mean at pace, I really mean on a quarter-by-quarter basis, which is the cadence of business in general, that's certainly the cadence of business within private equity, where they're trying to achieve very specific objectives and goals, quarter-by-quarter. - You know, we hear the term modern leadership thrown around a lot these days. I was wondering, what does that actually mean to you? How would you define modern in the context of leadership? - Yes, so modern leadership is really about the many demands of a leader today that didn't exist for, they didn't have those expectations put upon them, even let's say four or five years ago, pre-COVID. But in a post-COVID era, and particularly with the challenges that we faced today, societal, not to mention in business, right, modern leadership is required. And so how I define it, and I know we'll talk in a moment, it's about the eight principles, but how I really define it is taking a more timeless view on leadership based on understandings of human nature, based on understandings of patterns that we've seen occur throughout history. And based on an understanding of the, on the ways in which people typically react and respond to different types of stimuli in their environment. So those are just a few examples, but what we're really looking at here is understanding leaders and leadership and how to lead from a much more systemic point of view. And not simply, oh, I'm interacting with this individual, or this group, but really understanding that individual and that group within the context of a system and more timeless principles about how individuals and groups operate. - Yes, you're eight principles of modern leadership. I read them all before I'll call today. I'm so impressed. For example, what are those as nature as majestic teacher? You write, nature serves as a timeless source of wisdom. Wisdom is both ancient and modern. Here's another one, embrace lives, stages, and seasons. Every person is born, lives, and dies. We have seasons in life, bring summer, fall, and winter. On the show, unfortunately, we can go through all of those principles and details. But could we explore those a bit? Maybe you could share some real world examples of stories, that illustrate them that you use to help your clients become a modern leader to face, to embrace, and to master the biggest challenges? - Yeah, absolutely. And so the eight principles are our perspective, our copper box, our ethos, if you will, about how we think about modern leadership. So at the end of the day, you must help business leaders achieve their outcomes. And so that is first and foremost. And that being said, working with them is an opportunity to go for transformational change for the leader. And we know that when they achieve transformational change, when they become stronger leaders, not only in work, but also in different aspects of their life, there is a much more powerful cascading benefit and impact that is much more far-reaching. And that's what we want to help them achieve. And so when we think about the eight principles, we have that in mind, that it's not simply about business outcomes, we are confident that when we help leaders to become more modern, to achieve transformation inevitably, that is going to have great impact on the businesses that they lead and they run. So when we think about the principles, first, it really does start with getting grounded in core purpose. And there's a lot of talk about purpose. There's a lot of talk about finding your purpose or finding your why. And in essence, it is where everything starts. Core purpose is understanding both that your deeply held values, how you move in the world, what's important to you, what you'll put a stake in the ground for. It's also about the values and gifts that you bring to the world and that you want to use, because you're superpowers. And the combination of your values and your gifts are very powerful. And when you're able to combine both of those and then channel that into your purpose, you really do become unstoppable. So I've seen that in my own life, being able to have the renewed energy to really drive my business and to have the impact on leaders, but also see them in the lives of others, both my team members and also our clients. And the last thing I'll say about getting grounded in core purpose is that we talk a lot about inspiration in leadership, but really to be inspirational, you yourself have to be inspired. And so what is it in the world that inspires you, that gets you up in the morning and how you're able to bring that energy, which by the way, other people can see very quickly whether you have it or not. But as a leader, it is important to have. And so how are you bringing that, so therefore those that you lead can also be inspired? Because, hey, Waylin's got a light and energy, a spark that's being driven deep within and that intrigues me. And as my leader, I know that he's operating from a place of real inspiration and real purpose. And I'm inspired by that. And secondly, it's interesting because I found time and again, and this is very consistent across organizations, is that leaders certainly, they've got big titles, right? We work with leaders that have really big titles, really big roles. But they sometimes need leadership as a responsibility as opposed to a choice. And what I mean by that is, yeah, there are responsibilities to leadership, but leadership really starts with the choice. And so we talk about picking up the torch of leadership. And picking up the torch is a conscious choice. And there's two things to that. When you pick up the torch, you can certainly, and it's a great metaphor, you can light the way for others as a torch bearer. But at the same time, if you pick up the torch, there is a bit of playing with fire, you can get burned. So you understand that as a leader. There is going to be a certain level of personal discomfort. There's going to be sacrifice. If you're not sacrificing, then there's an aspect of leadership that is about sacrifice. So I would argue if you're not sacrificing, then there's not full or true display of leadership on your part. Because if you didn't have to sacrifice, it'd be easy, and leadership isn't easy. And so picking up the torch, I think, is really critically important. And making that decision for every leader is this first step. And I guess the last thing I'll say about picking up the torch is, leadership can be scary. I've found myself fearful in different situations and just had to punch my teeth and move forward. But I think one thing, perhaps, maybe might be comforting two leaders, or at least a good reminder of what you're there for and why you're there is that fear is a precursor to courage. So these two aspects of the human condition, they always appear in that order. You do not get courage without first experiencing fear. And so as you understand that, and you understand yourself in those kinds of situations, you understand that you're probably in the places that you need to be making the decisions that you need to be making, and that's leadership. Wow, as I was listening to you, two things really jump out at me. First, you've had on this idea that leadership is a choice. That actually takes me back to my days at Chicago Booth. There was this professor, Linda Ginzel, who used to drill that idea into our heads constantly. "Leadership was a choice," she would say. And hearing what you talk is clear that idea really lies up with what you're describing. The other thing that struck me was your take on fear and courage. It reminds me of this animated movie, "End Side Out." Have you seen it yourselves? They just released the sequel. The movie is all about human emotion. And there's this interesting dynamic between joy and sadness in the movie. At first, they seem like totally opposites, right? But as the story unfolds, you start to see how they're actually connected. The big lesson is that you can't really appreciate joy if you've never experienced sadness. I see a similar principle in what you're saying about fear and courage. They are not as separate as we might think. They are two sides of the same coin, each one giving meaning to the other. That's resonating with what you were getting at? Yeah, so it's Vincent. I love what you're sharing here. And actually, I need to catch that movie myself. I've been meaning to do that because I've been hearing such great things. And when it comes to these emotions that are juxtaposed or two sides of the same coin, it's a good lesson for us as leaders generally speaking. Another one, as I was listening to you that comes to mind, is love. For example, love that you have for somebody else, a deep love. And with deep love can also come profound grief, right? When losing a loved one, let's say. And so these strong emotions and the best of the emotions that you can experience in the world, such as joy, such as love, they do come with also other profound emotions that can also be at times devastating in one's life, right? Understanding both of those things, accepting that and going seeking love out anyways or wanting to be joyful, knowing that there'll be days when there will be profound sadness and understanding and accepting that, I think, is a bit of wisdom that we're talking about here in terms of modern leadership because it's really been an understanding of human nature, both the human experience for oneself but also for others. Yes, humanity. This brings us to the final part of the episode today. Let's shift gears and talk about something that has been making waves in the coaching world, AI agents and coaches. Whatever you say here will be an opinion based on your experience and expectation, so there isn't any right or wrong answer. Now, let's imagine in the ideal world you have all kinds of AI agents and tools at good disposal. They are ethical, legitimate and functionally useful. And you are UX a fairly good. So, how do you want to use them to your maximum benefit in your leadership coaching practice? Where do you see the value for you and for your clients? Perhaps in quality control, in quality enhancement, in improving their learning outcome and experience, driving up your scale of operation, expanding your market-rich, increasing time efficiency, making your cost structure more agile. What do you think? So, AI certainly does have its place. So, remembering that, yes, it is a tool and tools are useful. We remain the masters using the tools. When it comes to AI, I see a really exciting opportunity in terms of precision development. And precision development in terms of what is required for specific roles. And I'll use the example going back to private equity, working with a portfolio company CFO. And one of the things that is important is really understanding the very unique context of the CFO role, for example, in different types of portfolio companies. So, it's not simply that as a CFO as a CFO, but it really depends on the business context in terms of what the CFO needs to bring in terms of knowledge, skills and attributes and ultimately performance in order to help that company achieve its performance goals and the private equity firm to achieve its investment thesis and investment outcomes. And so, there's, I think, a lot of opportunity around better understanding what exactly are going to be the key knowledge skills and attributes that will lead to success or are indicative of success in particular roles. And that allows them the coach to get there faster and then enables the coach to then help those clients to achieve the development and growth goals that they have for themselves so they can perform at the highest level. Now, what that's not talking about their events is the transformation of the person. So, if AI helps with the science of leadership, precision development knowledge skills and attributes, the art of leadership would be then the transformational aspects such as the things we talked about before, understanding human nature, tapping into one's core purpose. Thinking about the larger problems of society and how one can contribute in a positive way to solving those. Having a human human connection with a team member who is having a bad day and needed literally just a minute or two of empathy and maybe a listening ear to feel they've been supported and then can get back on their feet and continue with the rest of their day. So, we want to keep again the tools in context, and we also want to be able to really take advantage of technology like AI, and I think the way that I described is one valuable way that we can do that as coaches. What do you think are the essential human elements of leadership coaching that AI might struggle to replicate efficiently and cause effectively? Very interesting question and of course one that we're all doing some sense making around, perhaps to make people even feel that they're grappling with, right. When we think about AI and coaching, coaching is fundamentally a human experience. And, but just take a step back if I could, Vince, and one of the, one of the, I know I shared sort of a couple of eight principles, but one that's important and very germane to the question you just asked it, the principle as using technologies as tools as a modern leader. And one of the things that I like to remind people, particularly leaders that we work with that are making technology decisions for their companies, is that the master remains the master, and the tools remain the tools. So, remembering that technology is a tool that serves us with a betterment of humankind, not the other way around. And technology, in my opinion, is also, it's not good enough to have something that's clever, or innovative, or cool without understanding the larger value that it provides, hopefully to humanity. As we talked about AI and, and coaching, we want to remember that coaching is fundamentally a human to human interaction, and through that interaction and through the, the specialness of the magic of that relationship, there's growth that is achieved in transformation that was achieved. Now, can you get that through a human interacting with AI, perhaps to philosophical question, my question to you and just generally to the audience to consider is, which you want that. Do you want to be interacting with AI versus an actual human? Do you want to be having a real connection with someone of your own kind of your own species, if you will, or do you want to be having it with a machine that is pretending to act as if it's human? And so, I think we have to ask ourselves those questions and then make this technology decisions, including around AI with that in mind. And of course, I know it's much more complex than that. There's a lot of different layers. But I think that is a fundamental question that we all need to be posing and reflecting on. Wayland has loved us so much to reflect on and explore. If anyone is interested in learning more about the eight principles of modern leadership, reach out to me or Wayland on LinkedIn. I've included our contact links in the show note. If you like what you heard, subscribe to our show for the latest updates. Thanks for listening. And Vince, your hardworking human host. Until next time, take care. [MUSIC] (upbeat music)
