A Multi-Billion-Dollar Question for Employers: Is Your Next CEO More Likely to Be Chosen by an Algorithm or a Headhunter?
In this episode of the Chief Change Officer podcast, host Vince Chan welcomes back Mary Shea, PhD, a seasoned tech leader in sales and revenue enablement, to discuss the evolving landscape of HR and recruitment.
The conversation delves into Mary's career journey, from classical musician to a senior tech role, and her current collaboration with HR tech company HireQuotient. They explore how generative AI and sophisticated recruitment technology are transforming the hiring process, especially in identifying and engaging diverse candidates.
Additionally, Vince and Mary discuss the importance of human touch in technology-driven recruitment, share personal anecdotes, and offer advice for job seekers navigating an increasingly AI-driven market.
Episode Breakdown:
00:20—Welcome and Introductions: Meet Your Human Host (While I'm Still Employed)
03:17—HireQuotient: Where Mary Decided to Play Cupid Between Job Seekers and AI
09:01—Unveiling HireQuotient's Secret Sauce: Is It AI, Magic, or Just Really Good Coffee?
14:35—Myth-Busting Time: How Can AI Hire Better Fit and Higher-Skilled Candidates Than Just Entry-Level Positions?
22:28—Vince's Personal Tale: When AI Recruitment Felt More Human Than Human Recruiters (Plot Twist!)
32:26—Mary's Job-Seeking Wisdom: Navigate the AI Maze Without Losing Your Human Touch
36:51—Why You Should Still Network with Humans (At Least Until AI Learns to Enjoy Happy Hour)
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[Music] Hi everyone, welcome to the Chief Chief Officer podcast. I'm your host, Vince Chen. Today, I've got a treat for you. We are welcoming back a familiar voice to the show, Mary Shea. If you called our first season back in March, you might remember her from Episode 3 and 4. If you missed those, don't worry. They're still there if you want to catch them. But we'll cover plenty of wrong today. Now, let me tell you, Mary's career path is anything but ordinary. We're talking a journey from classical musician to frontline salesperson, all the way to senior tech leader in sales and revenue and ablement. Talk about range, huh? But here's what really makes Mary tick. She's all about using tack to shake things off in how we work. As she put it in her last conversation, she's not one for playing by the standard rule book. Nope, Mary's is all about making waves and driving positive change. So it's no surprise, she's now team up with a rising star in the HL Tech world. Let's talk about why this matters. Our job market right now is like a roller coaster. We've got layoffs, downsizing, companies flipping the business models on their heads, and AI stepping into the rain. Throw in some political and economic curveballs. And you've got a recipe for a lot of people hunting for jobs. But it's not just about finding work, isn't it? We are in this fascinating era where you might have full generations all working side by side. And AI is like this double ash soul opening doors for some while others are wondering if it will show them the door. So where does all leave us? What's the future of work looking like? That's exactly what we are diving in today with Mary. She's going to give us the low down on what's happening in HR and recruitment. Ready? Let's jump in and hear what Mary's got to say. [Music] Mary, welcome back. Thank you Vince. It's wonderful to be here. You've had a deep career journey from being an industry analyst at Ferrester to now collaborating with a rising star in HR technology. What drew you to this HR tech space? What makes you believe we are at a tipping point for accelerated growth in this sector? Wow that's a great question and there's lots of questions within the question and I think that's why you're so wonderful at what you do but thank you for asking. So yeah I won't go too far back in time but I was an industry analyst at Ferrester for seven years or so. It's one of the most wonderful jobs that you could ever possibly have. You are working with some of the most intelligent, creative, forward-looking colleagues and the clients are the same as well. At a certain point in life I decided to go back into industry and I worked with a unicorn out in Seattle and was CEO of a RevTech company based in Chicago recently and I've absolutely fallen in love with not only the technology that higher quotient has but the leader of the company who is smart Sedana. He's a founder entrepreneur based out of India the company is based in Singapore and San Francisco and I met smart at Sasser probably about two and a half or almost coming up on three years now and I was a keynote speaker and he and I swore one of his colleagues cracked me down pretty much the whole time I thought I was at Sasser and they just wanted to talk tech and introduce me to the burgeoning company and build a relationship with me because I'm fairly well known in the industry and have a nice following grateful for that and we had so much to talk about that I invited him to come have breakfast with me at the hotel the next day and you probably know me a little bit then some a bit of an introvert even though I'm out there in the digital world and speaking but I don't typically invite people I meet for breakfast and so that was a strong indicator of my interest in smarts and the company and its vision the company essentially is HR Tech as you mentioned with a focus on recruiting and it's a software company it's not an agency I just want to be really clear and the software really takes some of the most sophisticated uses of generative AI and also automation the company has built rich ecosystem partnerships with a range of data providers that you would know and it can essentially offload the first three quarters of the recruiting process for the recruiter and why is this important it's important because everyone's doing more with less these days many of the recruiters that I talk to whether they're external or internal are one human band so to speak there's not a lot of them and so having an AI agent that's how I like to refer to the technology easy source to assist them and up level the engagement process with candidates is absolutely amazing the company takes a wide swath looking at candidates across a range of platforms not just linked in and I know you and I will talk about that because there's some challenges with just focusing on linked in naturally and it can go out and find very specific candidates with very specific skills but not limited to just one or two sources and so that really helps the recruiter manage against the bias problem that I think sometimes we think about when we think about technology and automation and AI and so I'm just blown away the technology is elegant it solves a timely real world problem and the team is there to support every single customer 24/7 and it's a really special company and I'll just say one more thing and then I'll pause because I know you mentioned why is it the moment for HR tech I've been following tech for close to two decades now I started at Forrester back in the mid to late 90s and we saw the emergence of a skip CRM but we'll start with marketing automation right which we saw some amazing innovation in the 2000s and consolidation around 2009 and marketing automation really transformed the way marketers communicated with their total addressable market on a one to many setting that was so successful in fact somebody argued too successful we got too good at that game but that's another podcast then you saw the emergence of sales tech in 2015 where many of these founders took some of the principles and approaches that marketing automation showed us and applied it to a one-to-one scenario with the sales individual sales rep allowing them to offload some of the downstream activities engaged in more personalization and shared digital content and then we saw some consolidation around 2021 and we're still in a period where we're waiting to see what's next there as a former analyst and evangelist at multiple companies I really had the strong sense that we were on the cost of really being able to transform how recruiters did their jobs and their activities and their day-to-day activities and processes exactly the same way that we were able to do that in marketing and sales digital transformation and so I know the timing is right and we are seeing tremendous momentum in the market and incredibly positive responses from not only the tech as I mentioned but our team as well. Let's talk about higher quotient with which you are partnering in the US market. I check out the website they offer a full suite of solutions and products for businesses and enterprises. I'm in freak by the idea of uncovering hidden talent pools. Can you walk us through how this actually works in practice? I believe this is the this is what you call a differentiation or differentiation factor in high quotient. There's a couple of differentiating factors and many really one is the level of sophistication and in quality of the AI and the ability to use very sophisticated prompts. The second is rich external relationships with database companies whether that's Apollo, Zoom, Navigator, Crunchbase and I won't list them all out but there's a very rich ecosystem which allows clients to minimize their spend and focus on consolidating all of their tech providers but what this does is allows us to we the recruiter will have a search and maybe it's I'll give you without revealing the name of the soon-to-be client I'll give you an example. We were doing a search on the technology for a database company that's soon-to-be unicorn closing around in funding and they wanted to hire a principal engineer and that engineer had to have 10 years of experience in engineering. They had to have the ability to understand Java, C++, a range of other different code. They needed to work at a database company so they were looking for some someone that had come from a competitor understood the space and there were several others as well. It's very detailed and so what we were able to do is enter in the prompts around where we wanted this person to be located. The amount of experience that they had to have in not only database company but in their coding languages because the experience was different in either and we went on and on it was pretty deep the recruiter had been having lots of challenges we immediately entered in the prompts and the system went to work and identified in two to three minutes about 50 candidates. What was interesting was the response of the recruiter is blown away who said I've seen hundreds of tools like this over my last 12 years in business I've seen nothing this happened before. We looked through and we found the top candidates the system ranked the candidates based on the must have and nice to have skills we only looked at the five-star candidates and oh by the way we found out they were only male candidates I'm sure you're not too overly surprised and so we said maybe your hiring manager wants to bring a more diverse set of candidates to the tables let's add in another prompt and let's look for some female candidates as well and we did we found someone and this person was not what we would call a five-star candidate but a four-star candidate because she didn't have every single must-have aspect and we said to the hiring manager okay let's take a look at this skill set the resume and the other thing the system does is it automates out beautiful profiles of each individual candidate you can see at my blog what it looks like which allows the recruiter to share that with their hiring manager or client and we said to her this is a case where candidate may not have put on her LinkedIn and other social profiles that she had C+ that she had Java that she had some of the other elements so we recommend you reach out to her talk to her and see if that was just no mission this is how many underrepresented candidates female and others get missed by bots evaluating bots there's a human component that needs to be brought into this and so we're not trying to take the job away from the recruiter but rather augment the things that the machine is good at and let the human have more time to do the things that they're good at so the recruiter went out to speak with that candidate i don't know what the outcome is but that gives you an example and then i'll give you one final point we're focused on outbound so if you think of applicant tracking systems that just evaluate rank candidates and then practice them through the back end process our differentiator is that we will go out and actively find passive and active candidates from a range of sources cross check them their experience maybe you want a sales leader who's grown a SaaS business from 5 million to 100 million and they don't have that on their linkedin would cross the ai will quickly cross check their experience and time with crunch base and come back with a recommendation so then what happens is the ai will create outbound messaging through a range of different omni channels whether it's text or linkedin or email and the recruiter can go out and have the email automate and reach out to all of these candidates and the ai also picks based on each individual candidate very specific aspects of their qualifications to excite them about how qualified they are for the role so automation sophisticated use of or robust use of generative ai and working in concert with the recruiter those are the big differentiators i see there's a common belief that scalable h0 tech solutions are best suited for lower-end less skilled jobs versus higher-end highly skilled and senior jobs i know you have some strong views on this can you share your perspective and perhaps debunk some of the misconceptions around the topic yeah it that is so true Vince i think there is and i have i've had this conversation with some of our business partners and with other folks and there is this misconception yes this is great for the transactional roles look this is great for any role i think maybe the best way for me to answer the question is to just give your audience an example of when i was co-CEO at a revenue enablement company i just raised 50 million in funding but simultaneously we had to really streamline and restructure the organization multiple times we had a new vc partner and they wanted us to be able to be cash flow break even on a dime within two quarters to be frank and we needed to really make the company smaller which is difficult obviously on the human personal side but it's the reality of business and where we are in the world right now and then simultaneously i needed to upskill several very key roles and about ten roles to fill and i had one internal recruiter that's a lot Vince that's a lot for one individual and and he wasn't just sourcing after my go-to-market roles he was sourcing engineers in a range of other roles that i wasn't intimately involved in at the time and i couldn't afford to hire an external recruiting firm which could cost me 80 to 100 grand a role you know that i've done it many times and it's great but again it's just not the reality the business reality that many of us are in today so i didn't use higher culture for every role i hired them and i said look i can't i don't know how i'm going to fill these roles in the time fashion in the time that i need to do it with the highest quality candidates and oh by the way i have a personal platform around elevating and amplifying the voices of underrepresented in business so on every single role for my credibility within the organization and externally outside of the firm i need to bring in a diverse set of finalists that's no joke i can't say one thing and then do another when the rubber meets the road and without higher culture i never wouldn't be able to do it so i didn't use them for every single every single search i had but there were three that i used that i needed two one was i needed a demand gen manager and as one your listeners know demand gen is really hard right now now that's not a senior role but we couldn't fill it and hard quotient did an amazing job of finding someone that had three three different degrees two masters data science phenomenal the other role i had to fill was a sales rep based in europe in the continent and as you probably know all my contacts are pretty much in the uk but we needed someone in the continent because we had a deep partnership with sap and we needed that person to speak german english and at least one other european language we needed them to have worked at or understood or have relationships with sap and we needed them to have come from a revenue enablement company and there was no way i could find that person higher quotient found several candidates that met all of my criteria within i don't know two to three weeks and we had hired that role in four weeks which blew my mind and exceeded all my expectations those are two i think pretty inspiring examples but to directly answer your question about senior level talent or c-suite talent or talent where you need a white glove experience this was the most eye opening for me i had to hire a chief customer officer this was the most important role that i needed to hire at the company for a range of reasons that sass companies have been struggling with churn over the last 18 to 24 months it's been a very tough market and so in order to grow your businesses you need to first stop the leaky bucket so i thought this was an incredibly important role i had a board member refer a candidate to me i also found a candidate that i'd worked with in the past someone who had grown a business to about a hundred million and a very strong candidate but to be frank those were folks that they were both one was a man was a woman was a woman they weren't people of color they didn't they didn't really feel my deep need for more diverse candidates i posted online i got a hundred applicants and hire quotient went through and found the top one percent on a daily basis surfaced those to me and i was very actively involved in this along with our recruiter he did an amazing job and we found this amazing diamond and rough we found several candidates that had scaled customer success organizations to a hundred million that had been in sass businesses that had experienced mna because we were hired highly acquisitive company that was important that had managed multiple sass products and so on and so forth and we interviewed those folks and they were great so what happened was we dramatically reduced the time that it would have taken me and other executives on the interview loops because by the time hire quotient had surfaced the candidates they were really good i was able to put four finalists together which also included the internal referrals and i i'll tell you personally i fully expected to hire my former colleague and as we went through the interview process i was becoming more and more taken with the two candidates that hire quotient found my final set finalist was two women two men two people of color and honestly i would have been happy to hire any one of them they were also strong everyone at the company thought it was an incredibly fair and well-run process and i hired an amazing person who is now doing a tremendous job in leading not only her organization but is a strong number two for the current CEO of that company and i get it i understand maybe i'm not going to change the hearts and minds of die-hard recruiters who truly believe that the c-suite needs to be handheld every step of the way but i will say because the ai can customize the external messaging so much and because that's automated and on-me channel it allows the person to stay in content the recruiter to stay in content constant contact with the candidate this is a whole other topic but how many times have you been ghosted and i've been ghosted by HR folks it happens so it created a brighter brand experience even for the candidates we didn't hire and ultimately once that's three quarters of the recruiting process was handled by hire quotient we did white glove internally i was involved in every interview i was talking as was our recruiter and i was texting talking with our finalists on a regular basis so just because you're augmenting a part of the process doesn't mean you walk away from a white glove or blue chip experience and so i really hope this these stories help come to life why i am debunking hopefully that theory and i know you have a different perspective so i really want to hear your thoughts i can appreciate that if i were one of those candidates by the way in your process i totally appreciate the fact that someone's senior like you and your colleagues got really involved in the process because if i join if you offer me a job i will be working with you how you'd treat me it's indicative of how i will be treated as well okay so yes i do have a story to share i don't usually share a lot of personal stories especially if i do interviews i want the focus to be on the guest but this time for this topic i do have a personal story so if you you could allow me this recent experience of mine really got me thinking about the challenges and opportunities in the hl's base today so i was up for this senior position at a great international break you know what are those roles that ask for over 20 years of work experience exciting stuff right now here's where it gets interesting the person interviewing me a young hl professional maybe two or three years out of college and she asked me to join her on the zoom call she sent this request through a automatic recruitment system so i replied i said yes i pick a date and now keep in mind this isn't during covid and we are in the same city so i offered to pop into the office for face-to-face conversation well she did not come back to me maybe it's because of the automatic system then when i got on the call i once again mentioned to her that i would love to meet her in person i reached out to her before call and her response was oh no friday is work from home we just do the call all right i thought let's roll with it from the moment we started i can tell she's just just reading questions off the screen next to her computer it felt like i was in some kind of robotic interfere simulator the question were all over the place a valley touching on what the job was actually about and i can tell you some questions were inappropriate touching upon age in generation there i'm thinking where's the human touch in all this it really left me wondering about company's culture if this is how they treat potential candidates and executives what's it like to work there it wasn't exactly the best first impression i think in today's world where competition for top talent then more and more intensive HR is not only for recruitment for administration but training what sets one employer apart from an other employer for recruitment of top talents HR plays a very very crucial role in the whole process HR is the front line ambassador for the company my experience felt like a missed opportunity it made me wonder in today's market do you think advanced tap and AI solutions might actually offer a more personal life an effective experience than human recruiters especially when there is a significant gap in experience or multi-generational understanding how do you see technology potentially bridging these gaps wow there's so many layers to unravel here as it always is with the events which is why i just here speaking with you first of all i'm so sorry that you experienced that because no one deserves that and it's a very poor experience i think i will get to your question about technology helping and having the time bringing more humanity into the process but in this case to me i think this is just a miss right you said a missed opportunity unfortunately someone that early in their career in my view should probably not have been running the interview search for a 20 plus year veteran at a big international brand and so to me i don't know if you reached back out to the chief HR officer chro or senior executive there but i think you would be doing them an incredible favor if you just let them know what your experience was like and maybe once you package up this podcast we can you can send them the podcast and they can listen to it and hear the impact of someone who's just simply not ready in their career or has not had the appropriate training or support i don't want to be aged against someone who's new in their career unfortunately that was just a miss and i don't think that company would want that to happen and i think the onus is on us to tell the executives the other thing i think is when you think about everyone always talks about pricing is so important and pricing is always inextricably linked to your brand and we talk a lot about that at booth right and JP duvet has a class on pricing and we know how important pricing is but i think you bring up another really important point which is the experience in the recruiting process is also linked to your brand and whether or not you hire someone in some ways is irrelevant from a brand perspective you've got to deliver consistent professional experiences and you've got to weave some into humanity into the process into what is quite quite a challenging process particularly for a range of different people out there looking and it's not just not you're going to get a bad review on whatever the the HR site is you want to make sure that every candidate has a stellar experience and i'll just give you one really quick experience of mine and then i will i promise i will directly answer your question but i interviewed partner a little bit ago and like you i'm deep into my career i'd done the job many years i think they had a more junior candidate in mind but they were incredibly professional and kind to me i worked with a recruiter and i also reached out to an executive three or four or five levels above the recruiter to introduce myself and ask her to look after the process and she did in every single executive that i talked to treated me with the utmost responsibility respect sorry i don't think they ever intended to actually hire me they had a playbook and i didn't fit into it and i was probably too expensive vince and you could say two two two and it's all fine it turned out great but i had an amazing experience in working with them and i did a lot of work for the interview i wrote a report i did a presentation like it's no joke when you interview for these senior level positions i walked away sad that i didn't get the position but i was like you know what it's probably for the better and now i'm a gartner client you know the way gartner looks at it is everyone they interview this is how i everyone they interview is a potential client and so i think that's how this inner national branch should have looked at it all right now to answer your question i don't think that technology can overcome some of the limitations that you described because the technology is it's designed to be that agent or a partner not to disintermediate the recruiter and i think that's where a lot of people get confused so you have to have a strong professional in partnership with the tech just like you need a strong sales rep in partnership with the sales tech right sales tech is not going to close the deal people buy from people they know and trust and they want to look someone in the eye at that final moment and they want someone's throat to choke if something goes wrong so it's not going to solve for the kind of problem that you described but what it will do is let someone who's very talented who's maybe overloaded with work who can't respond back or can't meet you for coffee it frees them up from the downstream activity so that they can interact in more meaningful ways with the candidate like yourself and so that's the way i see it sure the fact that we have an automated communication system that's on a work-flow cadence helps because we're constantly folks who use our software constantly in communication with that candidate and i think that helps but it won't take away a problem of someone who's simply not qualified or trained to do their job effectively and i hope it's very long-winded but i hope that gets to the crux looking for our while this is all good it's really good as we speak a lot of the issues i've raised the solutions to these issues the approach to dealing with and managing the risks of what AI technology can and will bring to the table are still being developed and explored that's the beauty of change change is changing itself we'll come back to this in our next episode together before we web up i have one more question for you we've talked about a lot of technological potential and advancements in HR for employers let's flip the table and talk about job seekers giving you experience in this area you'll read on this industry what advice would you give to job seekers in this increasingly AI driven market how can they position themselves better and stronger in the AI driven recruitment process to become a standout candidate for example and effectively communicate the value the real value to the employers for this question you and i know very well that using chat gpt or any AI tool to create a hundred percent polish resume and cover letter is not the answer so what's your advice yes dear Vince i hope this email finds you well and in good health no we can't do that that's not going to help you get a job sure it and i want to acknowledge that it is so difficult out there right now i know so many wonderful folks who are on the beach who are job seeking right now who are act sales force zoom info forest are super high quality companies and it's tough for every search you're getting hundreds if not thousands of applicants i applied for a service now position and there were thousands and thousands of positions or applicants rather there's a couple of things and i'll go over some of the basics but i think again it does come back to your humanity and in your network in your community really but sure you've got to make sure you've got a resume that is going to signal or provide the right triggers to whatever AI is evaluating your experience the biggest thing you can do is be provide excruciating detail whether you're a software engineer in terms of all of the skills language development languages certifications or if you're in sales or sales leadership or some of the other roles like you've scaled businesses from five million to fifteen million or like you need to be super specific on exactly what what you've done be very granular there the next piece of advice i would say is make sure that you're linked in really matches that level of detail because linked in for better or for worse is the primary source that a lot of internal and external recruiters use and so what i see is um linked in profiles are typically have a lot less detail right and if you have less detail on your linked in you could be completely looked over even though you might be perfect for for the job and so that's where you see this is advice i give to a lot of underrepresented folks who are job seeking be very detailed and linked in and then it comes down to your community in your network i don't know if this is true for you vince even in the post digital age every single position i have had comes from a relationship and i don't know if i shared maybe i shared on this this pod or you and i spoke about it before but i met smart cedana close to three years ago at saster when he came up to speak with me after i did a keynote speech and brought one of his colleagues and we became professional friends through that interaction and we stayed in touch even though we didn't work together even though i wasn't a client for years i eventually became a client and then i eventually became a customer an employee so focus on your human connections have community if you don't have a community or personal board use some of the communities that are out there there's uh Wednesdays women there's sales assembly there's a range of different women in revenue i i skew a little bit more to the go-to market but i'm sure there's many other communities for HR and technical professionals pay to be involved in those and get the advice and build that network and network like hell don't stop doing that so that's those are the pieces of advice i would give folks you answer one of the questions on my list is about networking you and i started and built our careers before the digital age so our training our experience involve a lot of human touch a lot of personal touch for example whole calling in this free event socialization face-to-face keeping in touch in close touch with people before we had linked end the gesture of reciprocation yet the younger generations they've grown up in a digital era so the definition of networking the approach to communicating with people to building and developing sustainable meaningful relationships so much different from ours yeah i thank you for bringing that up because i think you know it wasn't exactly top of mind and you're absolutely right and i've had you know bringing that analog to the sales world when you know when i was an operator what i saw from digital natives would be you know they were really great at many aspects of the sales process but when it came to asking the difficult questions when it came to looking someone in the eye and being a little uncomfortable when it came to closing some of the folks that were early in their career just were lost in space they couldn't do it and i instituted bilateral mentorship programs so that would help i get more tenured folks with more junior folks on the sales side the junior ones would help the tenured ones to be more effective with technology and using it for greater efficiencies and the tenured would help them really understand some of the nuances of reading the room eye contact and with in sales as events if you're not making someone feel a little bit uncomfortable at some point in the process you're not selling right there's always that moment yeah and yeah it's that's such a great point i think technology should not be designed to replace human interactions it should be designed designed to augment them or to make our lives better and we know from social media and some of the terrible horror stories we've heard and the impact of younger folks and preteens that's not always the case until we're struggling with that at a societal level but for some of these folks that haven't done it i'm not saying you need to go to the old del Carnegie meetups or whatever i don't want to disparage anyone you've got a morph sort of these networking opportunities into what's relevant today so women in sales is a wonderful community that alexine mudar is built and i love what she does she takes her team and she goes to different cities and she does regional dinners with um women in sales who are climbing the corporate ladder there's only a third of women a third of b2b sellers are women she has lots of classes courses certifications a range of things that could be done digitally right but she does smaller group formats where these folks get together we see all kinds of industry events and even just anything as simple as virtual coffees and virtual virtual wine tasting is and things of that nature so put yourself out there i'm not saying you have to go to some old school awkward job fair to i would never do that but you've got to use an omni channel approach and you've got to rely on the human connections and you're right if you're not connecting with people at a certain point you're not going to feel good i started my day on the deck looking out over a meadow in this stream which is my backyard i'm fortunate watching the birds and i take 20 minutes each day to do that to level set and to practice gratitude and then i'm on zoom like everyone else and i take breaks but i guess the big piece of advice is transfer yourself to the right formats and lean in don't lean out to the human connections and those can be omni channel but don't forget in person because that's that's what feeds us that feeds our humanity a hundred percent agree that's why i never see myself building a podcast a show i am building a community a global community involving minds like yourself who is progressive about developing evolving and revolutionizing their careers their future with that mary thank you so much for your time today thank you for having me vince and thank you for all you do special thanks to mary for coming back to our show i said if you want to learn more and size and four sites for mary regarding career development and tech and leadership check out season one episode three and four if you like what you heard please subscribe to our show that's a web on today's episode thanks again for listening i'm your host vince chan catch you next time you
