Rhythms of Grace
S10E10 - Does The Bible Condone Slavery?
- Well, hello and welcome to Rhythms of Grace. I'm Christine and I'm here with Nate. - Yes. - And son. - I was gonna say, hey, before you said so. I was quick to the draw. - Oh man, yeah, I see. We're all, I think, fully caffeinated this week. - Yeah, do it better. - As you can tell. So, yeah, son, you previewed it last week. But, well, let's start with, what did, remind us what we talked about. There were three threads. - Three threads. - The phenomenological language, ancients wrote according to what they observed, heard and saw. And so, we need to take that into consideration as we read the Bible. And so, they would talk about the four corners of the earth, right? And so, some flat earthers would say, yay, right? The Bible actually. - It's the same, the Bible. - Yeah. And back then, they had a three-tier universe, cosmology, right? Earth here, and actually a lot of people today do too, but I don't know that that's, like, so, earth is here, heaven is above, hell is below, right? And so, Dante and all that kind of, there's the same kind of thing. But, we won't get too much into it, but that's, again, an ancient cosmology. So, phenomenological language, progressive revelation. - Sorry, I don't know what's happening. - Okay. - It's your alarm to wake up. - Yeah, oh, yeah. - Progressive revelation that the New Testament actually clarifies what the Old Testament is saying, and God reveals more and more throughout the story of scripture. - But doesn't mean that the Old Testament is no longer applicable to me. - Right, right, yes. And then the whole redemptive movement, hermeneutic, which is, there's a trajectory that God is engaging in, in the redemption of all creation, from small movements of redemption, progressively greater and greater redemption in the world. - And from our perspective, we are in some ways looking back at what was a step forward, based on sort of their understanding of the time. You use the X, Y, Z, sort of like, X was where the culture existed, Y was where the scripture was written, which often represented progression. We live, Z is sort of like the fully realized heavens and earth, and we live somewhere past Y, where we're in some ways looking backwards. But that doesn't mean that Y didn't represent a tremendous step forward culturally at the time. - Right, yeah. - And so that's a seminary professor, William Webb. And this is the way he describes in his chapter on slavery, X, which is the original culture, their slavery with many abuses. Y is slavery with better conditions and fewer abuses, right? And again, like, we think like, well, why doesn't he just abolish it right then and there, right? Our culture, slavery eliminated and working conditions often improved, right? And this goes to not only child labor, back in the days of Dickens and, you know, even today atrocious practices to more equitable just practices. But the ultimate ethic Z is he says slavery eliminated, improved working conditions, wages maximized for all and harmony, respect and unified purpose between all levels in an organizational structure. So even in the ultimate ethic, right, there is work, there is organization, there is society, but it is with equality, there is just and fair practices and there is harmony and respect. And so our culture is, we are still on the way to Z. - Right. - And so his issue of slavery goes beyond just like American slavery or biblical slavery to just human humans engaging in work together with each other. - Interesting. - Yeah. So that's a larger trajectory. That's kind of like the summary right from the get go. - Yeah. - Let's dive into slavery now. - Wow, I'm so scared. (laughing) So I'm gonna let you start. - Yeah. - Yeah, you took your thoughts on that. - Okay. Try to look at my notes here. Okay, so I think we could say that in Z, the ultimate ethic, there is no slave, there is no slave owners, right, and there is all redeemed creation in revelation, right? And the Bible actually uses the word slaves, right? And I actually had a good friend saying, "You know, Son, and he's black." And he's like, "Even when you talk about being a slave "to sin or this or that, it really triggers me." I remember asking him, "What word should I use?" And he's like, "I don't know." And so it's a continuing conversation. But just to say, there is a cultural baggage, if you will, with a lot of atrocities in our history attached to the word slaves, but actually Paul uses that word in a positive way to say he's a slave to Jesus Christ. Meaning that he is indebted to, if you will, to his quote unquote master, right? So that's kind of the final vision of slavery. - Can I ask you, oh yeah, okay, go ahead. - No, no, go ahead, go ahead. - Well, I was gonna say, you know, is this, I'm wondering if this is an example of some of the threads that we talked about. Like, if you think about the fact that the founders of America considered slaves to be three-fifths of a person, like we look at that now and we're like, how could you possibly be so backwards in your thinking? But am I correct in assuming that that actually represented significant progress forward in terms of how people were sort of how they viewed slavery? - That is a great point. - Okay. - And I think you're right, because if you look at the arc of history, yeah, they weren't considered persons at all. And even if you think of a lot of the like American documents in government where, you know, where it's like they talk about equality, but yet in culture, there were still like restrooms for different races, right? - Yeah, right. - And so again, like even in our culture, and I would even say today, there's a lot of ideals that we champion and yet our practice is always lags behind. And again, like that is our reality. And yet like we wanna say to God, like, why can't you just, bam, like in one snap of the finger go from dark to light, right? Where we have to understand, this is the way humanity works in this broken and imperfect world. But I think that's a great insight because the whole cancel culture. Well, let's cancel George Washington. Let's cancel. - 'Cause you don't. - Yeah. Let's cancel this and if you, I mean, even Lincoln, even though he, you know, he kind of won the Civil War, freed slavery, I mean, if you look at some of his private letters and things like that, I don't remember, I don't remember all the details. Maybe you do, Christine, but he was torn on the issue of slavery as well too. Even though publicly he like, he proposed the emancipation of slavery. So again, let's just understand that this is our human condition. And so I think that's a great insight, Nate. - Are there arguments? I'm going back to our conversation last week. Are there arguments against those threads? Are there theologians who sort of say like that's not the way that we're supposed to read the Bible, that sort of like the X, Y, Z metric? Or are there people that think that? - I think, Sung, you mentioned like there are literalists, right? - Yeah. - Who are like, oh, this is the law and therefore that is what we should be doing. We shouldn't be saying how does this law move forward? We should be saying, you know, what does this law say? And how can we do it? I think, yeah. That's one that I'm aware of. - So the thing that's really interesting, and I'm gonna quote him 'cause it's just so good. He says, "Some who hold to a static hermeneutic..." - Okay. - "wants to portray their position as a historic or traditional hermeneutic. This of course has the benefit of sounding as if it embraces the way hermeneutic has always been done. But he talks about a redemptive movement hermeneutic has always been a major part of the historic church apostolic and beyond. And so he says, you could actually wrongly interpret scripture by being so frozen in time in your hermeneutic versus, so you're focusing on the tree versus zooming out and understanding where is this story going, right? So I think that's really-- - That's helpful. - Yeah, that's helpful. - So yeah, I think you're right. Either people, and I see this on both ends. People who I will call hyper-literalists and hyper-metaphoricalists, right? The hyper-literalists who are like, they're just stuck on, well, it's, I'm gonna use some easy examples. God says days. So first day this happened, second day, it's right there, it's pretty easy, right? Or you have other people on the other end saying, oh, Jesus' resurrection, it was a symbolic metaphor for a new life that comes around every spring, right? - Okay. - You have two very different, and you could say hyper-conservative, hyper-liberal interpretations of scripture where some would say, we've talked about this, well, God says it, I believe it, you know, whatever, right? It's just that easy and simple, and others who say, well, the Bible, like, isn't the authoritative word of God, it's good literature. Of course, it has inspirational stories, and it really points to the person of Jesus, and here's my issue with people who say, like, Jesus is the culmination. Maybe I went on this rant before, but Jesus is the culmination, but he's not the end of the story, right? And so people want to point to a Jesus ethic, yes, but even that Jesus pointing to, and is aligned with the ultimate ethic. And again, he is living that ethic in a very broken and oppressive Roman culture and government. So even there, right, it's-- - I mean, so much of it goes back to what we've talked about early on earlier episodes this season, which is the requirement for discernment and nuance, it only becomes more evident that the deeper you dive in. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when we look at slavery in general in the Bible, it may seem imperceptible, but there is a movement towards greater redemption. So in the old, for example, so there were slaves in the ancient Near East and in Israel, and they were always considered property, always. - Yeah. - In fact, a father could sell his daughter into slavery, but the slave owners could not sell that daughter to Gentiles. Slaves could be beaten and treated harshly back in the ancient Near East, and slaves could be taken as war brides. That was a culture of the ancient Near East. And so when you see in-breakings of God's redemption and that's anticipating his ultimate kingdom, I mean, you see a lot, actually, when you compare it to that background. - So what I immediately thought of as you were describing that slaves had to be, it couldn't be sold to Gentiles. They had to stay. What I immediately thought of was the year of Jubilee. - That was, yeah. - Which is, I guess there isn't evidence that the Israelites ever did it, but the concept was that all slaves were released of their debts. So sort of saying like, look, even in keeping slaves within our community, means that there is a plan for their freedom and redemption. I mean, 50 years is within like someone's lifetime. So that even if you were a slave, there was a very good chance that you would receive your freedom and there'd be sort of like this massive cultural reset. So when you look at that, you see that that, what did represent a significant step forward culturally, even though when we look at it and how it's like, it was okay for Gads to sell their daughters to slavery. There's nothing that justifies, I don't care if it's to your next-door neighbor, like it's not okay, but it's sort of the XYZ metric. - Yeah. And if you read a lot of the historical narratives of the first five books of the Old Testament, you see God sets out a lot of laws regarding slavery and just work because Israel themselves were slaves in Egypt. And so there are so many times God will say, you were oppressed as slaves. So therefore, right? And even laws against like the poor and slaves, right? We talked about this in other episodes, right? Like you don't harvest the edges of your field, right? Because there's a very fair equitable just system and God goes over and over again to Israel because you were one slaves. Remember this. So even that, like in a world, again, considering how barbaric it was, you see the beginnings of that redemption breaking through. - And it's interesting to see how I guess a lot of these things, just how hard God worked to combat like our natural trajectory, which is like, yeah, I was a slave, but now I'm free. And I have the power to like, you know, it kind of punish everyone else for what I went through or to do to others what they did to me instead of what I would have wanted. So like just seeing that, like, I think that being our maybe natural trajectory as humans and God saying like, no, because you've experienced this do different. - Yeah. - Or the year of Jubilee, you know, he talks about like, and don't like not, you know, help your neighbor out by like, you know, buying their daughter, just because, you know, the year of Jubilee is next year, still still hire them and free them on the year of Jubilee. And just those things to try to stop our natural. - Anyone who's ever worked in the trades understands what it's like to be the low man on the totem pole, sort of like the youngest, the greenest person on the job site and how you so much crap rolls downhill. And it is always because, hey, when I first started out, I had to blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, like that is the way that it goes instead of sort of saying like, man, when I first started out in construction or whatever, I didn't know anything, let me take you under my wing. Let me, you know, let me sort of show you the rope so that you don't have to suffer the way that I suffer. That is almost never the way that it goes. And actually the guys that do that, who actually do sort of apprentice young people are sort of known as like, oh, this person is someone you wanna work for, work with, you know. So that's good. I would even say the in-breaking of redemption in regards to slavery happens in Genesis 1 where God says he makes us a Mago Day in his image, right? Which again, broke against the Babylonian and ancient Near East narrative. I'm actually right now reading this book called The Lost World of Adam and Eve by a scholar named John Walton. And it's so interesting 'cause he has, he talks about 13 different ancient Near East narratives. And in every single one of those creation narratives, humanity is created because the gods don't wanna do work anymore. And so like you were saying, all the, you know, stuff that nobody wants to do gets thrown down to the lowest person on the totem pole. And here in all the ancient Near East narratives of creation, they are not made in the image of the gods. They are there for the express purpose of being slaves to the gods. And then the Hebrew narrative comes in and it is out of the overflow of the love and community of who God is that he creates them in his image, which breaks against all the ancient Near East narratives. So right there is the seed for, no, you will not oppress. Or possess any other human being. - Yeah. - Wow. It's good. So then, so you start in Genesis and then somebody wanted to turn to Deuteronomy chapter five verse 15. I don't even know if I have my Bible app over there. Christine's gonna beat you. - I'm already there. - Let's see. I'm not in Deuteronomy, but I'm in the Bible app. Okay, Deuteronomy 15? - Five. - Five. - 15. - 15. - All right, remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. - Yeah, so this is just reading the scripture that we just talked about, right? We just had this discussion that the memory of their own experience of slavery was written into the very fabric of their own story and to give them opportunity to actually be kind and compassionate. - Yeah. - And then I'm gonna go to what you were saying Nate. Exodus, why don't you go there, 21? Exodus 21, verse two to four. - If you buy a Hebrew servant, he has to serve you for six years, but in the seventh year he shall go free without paying anything. Said two and three. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone, but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. - Yeah, verse four too. - Oh, if his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master and only the man shall go free. - So yeah, like sometimes, again, from the perspective of somewhere between Y and Z, we go, okay, this still seems pretty regressive. But he's putting restrictions on slavery, which is more redemptive. Children born to slaves are now freed with the parent, who is freed. - Verse says the woman and the children stay. - Oh yeah. - If the wife was given by the master. - All right, right, right, okay, yeah, all right. So that is, so there's some good, some still not pointing to ultimate effect, right? At the same time, a better sign of redemption is the Israelite slave owner treating fellow Israelite slaves and his family so well, the slave chooses to remain in the household. - Yeah. - Verse five and six. - But if the servant declares, "I love my master and my wife and children "and do not want to go free," then his master must take him before the judge. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an all. Then he will be a servant for life. - So again, this is very different. Again, like one, we're gonna come, like you compare that to even American slavery. It's very different. If you compare that to ancient Near East slavery, it's very different. - Yeah. - Right, there's actually a potential for a love relationship, not like erotic love, but filial love. - Yeah. - That is unheard of. So this is why breaking through in the context of X, and if you don't know what that means, listen to the last episode, moving towards Z. - Right, right. And another sign is when fellow Hebrews, male or female sell themselves into slavery to pay off a debt. And so we've talked about that too. And so there is a profound recognition of the status and condition of a slave being not just property, but also a strong sympathy towards them because of Israel's own story and slavery. - I think it's easy to read these sections and see how differently men and women were treated in sort of like the slave-servant relationship. But if you read through it, sort of like remember that even the way that he described women slaves and servants was drastically different from what was expected, a drastic improvement. This is a same passage, verse eight, sort of like if a man sells his daughter as a servant, she's not to go free. But if she doesn't please the master, he must let her be redeemed. In other words, like you don't have the right to keep someone that you don't have the right to mistreat someone, basically. If you don't like the way that it's going, you have to let her go free. You don't get to just mistreat her, which would be the expectation culturally. And then that's where that verse that you referenced earlier sung, "She can't be sold to foreigners." And if he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing, and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she's to go free without any payment of money. So again, looking backwards, it's like, wait a minute. Women were treated differently than men. The women slaves didn't get to go free, but there's all of these other protections that are put in place that would be, again, shockwaves, in terms of this being the law, versus the way that they expected things to be. - Yeah, that's so good. Also in Leviticus chapter 25, I'm just gonna, okay, 25, 39 to 46. So I'll read it, and then maybe I'll have you two share thoughts on this as it relates to the whole discussion. If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave. He shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner. He shall serve you with you until the year of the Jubilee. Then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and go back to his own clan and return to the possessions of his fathers. For they are my servants, whom I brought out the land of Egypt. They shall not be sold as slaves. You shall not rule over him ruthlessly, but shall fear your God. As your male and female slaves, whom you may have, you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may be queef them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves to them, but over your brothers, the people of Israel, you should not rule one over another ruthlessly. Again, it's easy to go like, man, the whole system is so terrible. - Yeah. - Mm-hmm. - I mean, and from Y perspective, our, sorry. - Y.5. - Y.5, it does, it seems like, what kind of barbaric practice is this? But here you go from somebody who is in debt, who it's almost saying, you're not actually supposed to call them even a slave. - Yeah. - They are a hired worker, or even a temporary resident. Again, it really represented a safety net from people sort of spiraling into abject poverty. - Mm-hmm. - Which, again, like, you look at the way that they did that, you're like, well, there's gotta be a better way, but it represented a step forward, yeah. - And the fact that they're not supposed to treat them harshly or ruthlessly, it says, but fear God. - Like, again, there's another protection, or a limitation or restriction on the master, to not act harshly. - Yeah. - Well, and, you know, when I'm reading through, like, some of these, I'm like, yeah, I mean, we're saying we're at Y.5, but, like, a hundred years ago, we weren't at Y.5, you know what I mean? - No, all right. - And around the world, there are lots of places that I think could still probably follow this, and it would be a step forward, from the way that treatment is today. And so, I think that is maybe helpful context for me, too, of like, we feel like we've come so far from this passage of the Bible, and it's so barbaric, but-- - We have not. - Yeah. I mean, really? - Yeah. - I can see people reading this, I can see people reading this in early America, and sort of saying, again, like, this represents white people and people of color, sort of saying, like, oh, I would never, like, if my neighbor is in poverty, I will make him sort of a laborer, but there's a lot of things that say that the foreigner can be a slave for life. - Yeah. - So, again, you can see, we feel like we're so advanced, and yet you look at this and you're like, oh my gosh. It wasn't so long ago when people were still, like, this would have represented like a step forward for that man. - Yeah. Well, to continue the story, Ark, right? When a fugitive slave were to arrive in the land of Israel, the question is, what were the Hebrew people to do? Well, dude around me, 23, if a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master, let them live among you wherever they like, and in whatever town they choose, do not oppress them. So here's, again, another sliver of God's redemption and shining through that becomes a powerful vision for what the ultimate ethic and kingdom should and will look like, where grace is shown towards the fugitive, and grace is actually experienced by, you know, in the life of that slave. - Yeah. Well, and it's also, I think it points toward, you know, at first it's like, wait a second, the Bible seems like it's endorsing slavery, but if you run away, then you can be like, protect, like what does this mean? And then when you think about that passage where it's like, oh, if a slave like loves his master and his working situation and life is good, like he's welcome to stay, but if it's so bad that he's running away, then he can be free. Like, don't return him to his master 'cause clearly there's something broken in the system. And I think for me, like, growing up mostly hearing about American slavery where I think everyone wanted to run away, it feels like who wouldn't, everyone would want to run away. So I think just opens my eyes like, oh, it's 'cause we're dealing with a broken system. And God is trying to like point to a different way. I don't know, I don't know if that makes sense. - Yeah, yeah, it does. I mean, again, like you just have to read it with such sort of an open mind and a humility and a willingness to live in the discomfort of shades of gray really. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's another passage in Job 31. He says, "If I've denied justice to any of my servants, "whether male or female, when they had a grievance "against me, what will I do when God confronts me? "What will I answer when called to account? "Did he, did not he who made me in the womb, "make them, meaning his slaves, his servants, "did not the same one form as both within our mothers?" So he recognizes, though he has servants, whether they be hired servants or slaves, that they are no different than he is. - Yeah. - And that's because it's based on again, Imago Dei, the image of God. - Yeah. - And a lot of Christian apologists will say this, and I think it's true. It is Christian doctrine and theology that gives the basis for our society and not killing off euthanasia, or let's kill all the old people, let's get rid of all the disoevable people, right? It is Christian theology alone. And if there are humanists or atheists who believe that, they're actually living above their own worldview. In the sense that, think about an atheist. There's no God, and they would say the strong meet the weak. That's the animal world. That is how the universe operates. And so if that is true in civilized society, who are the strong and who are the weak? And what do you do to the weak? You kill them off. And so as an atheist, you actually have a higher sense of ethic than what your theology would permit. Does that make sense? - Yes. - Once you explain it. - So are we gonna delve into New Testament passages? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Because I feel like, and I don't know off the top of my head, but I feel like there's also like steps forward around foreign slaves in the New Testament, as they talk about how they're supposed to be treated. - Yeah, so Bible drill. - Oh, dang, I always lose these, man. - I'm already ready. - Oh, geez. - Well, okay, before we jump into any passages, what are some thoughts off the top of your head in terms of slavery in the New Testament? What does it say, or what doesn't it say? - The only passage that comes to my mind right away is the kind of picture of Z, which is there is no male or female slave or free. Just kind of that like, yeah, there was such a hierarchy, obviously between male and female, there was such a hierarchy between slave and free, and that's washed away. - Yeah, that's good. Oh, that's the one I was gonna use too. (laughing) I'm just kidding, nothing comes to mind off the top of my head that I can quote. - Okay. Yeah, I think that is one sign of redemption, a moment of redemption, moving towards Z, which is that, yeah, in Christ, there's no differentiation and status, slave and free, we are all one, right? It also says male and female. That doesn't say there's no such thing as male and female. It's just saying, again, and this will be the next episode talking about women, right? There is to be mutual submission and mutual, whatever, equality in their interactions. That just reminded, for some reason, I just remembered another passage about slave and free. - Okay. - Which is in the New Testament where, I think Paul says if you're a slave, do not seek to be free, which is maybe a controversial one. - Yeah, yeah. - Especially, probably because of its abuses in American history. - Yeah, yeah, and that's an interesting case to consider, especially given some of the Old Testament, conditions and restrictions and limitations on slavery. But we mentioned this a little before, but maybe we're jumping ahead a little bit, but I think one of the redemptive qualities, redemptive movements in the New Testament is the language of not only following Jesus, knowing Jesus, loving Jesus and obeying him, but also turning around the whole metaphor of slavery, right? So Matthew 624, Nate. - Oh man, oh boy. - I was literally like reading something else. - Oh okay, what were you reading? What were you-- - It's okay, it's okay. Matthew 628, you said. Do I have that right? I'm stalling for time. - It's 24. - Oh 24. No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money. - So in using the word master, he's saying, we're slaves. So I can't think of a phenomenon right now, but like a word that has a lot of negative baggage that is then redeemed and used in a positive way. So Paul actually turns the word slavery around, which was, I mean, inhumane throughout the ancient Near East. And now he uses it in a way in Christian doctrine to say actually, kind of like that one passage of like, oh, I love my master, I wanna stay with him in a way that's redemptive to say like actually slavery. Yes, it comes with all this baggage, but I am now using it in a way that actually there is a love relationship and a mutual delight in that relationship. - I'm thinking of something controversial. I'm not sure if I'm gonna say it out loud yet. - Okay. - Okay. - I'm gonna say it. It's almost like, it's almost like, oh boy, forgive me everyone. It's almost like it's not the elimination of slavery that is the ultimate ethic, but instead of fully redeemed understanding of slavery that is the ultimate ethic. - That is so good. - So that's all I'm gonna say. I can't fleshed it out without treading on thin ice. - Right, because when it comes, yeah, that's so good because slavery we think of just other people in terms of making them less and human. The way Paul talk about slavery is when we're slaves to something else, it makes us less than human. And the only way to go on fully human is only when we're slaves to Christ. - Oh, yeah. See, I'm glad you did the fleshing out. - Yeah. - Right, because that's what slavery does, dehumanize us, but that's what slavery does send us. And that's this whole metaphor throughout the New Testament is it will dehumanize you. Boom, Nate. - Okay. - Wow. - That's those multiple cups of coffee worked out. (laughing) - There's a whole book in the Bible in the New Testament where Paul interacts and has kind of situationally talks about slavery, the book of Philemon. - Yeah, the runaway slave. - Yes, yes. - So here, gosh, trying to summarize the book. - I think basically, so Philemon had runaway, right? But he ran away to Paul and did incredible work for Paul. He was like an incredible fellow, I guess, servant of Christ. And so Paul is writing to his former master and sending Philemon back. - Yep, so Philemon is actually the slave owner. - Oh. - Onissimus. - Oh, onissimus. - But yeah, yeah, yeah, but you got the story right. - Okay, so onissimus ran away to Paul, did incredible work, and then Paul sends onissimus back to Philemon. And what does he say to Philemon? - So first, I think it's interesting that Paul tries to get Philemon's sympathy towards in this onissimus, right? And he says to him, almost becomes a reference. Yeah, this slave, onissimus, has become, and in his words, his, quote unquote, son. - Yeah. - I mean, there's affectionate language that is being used. There's family language being used. And so imagine Philemon, he's probably stunned. That Paul is even talking this way. - Yeah. - Like, what, like he's actually useful, and you call him your son, not biologically, but spiritually and in partnership with the work that he was doing. So he's trying to explain onissimus's departure as almost a divinely orchestrated event so that this could come about. And he addresses Philemon as a brother. So again, you could see a New Testament ethic that is starting to come out that is very different from ancient Near East. - Sure. - And even, you know, even in the Roman Empire. - Sure. I mean, verse eight is super interesting because Paul says, like, look, I could order you to do the right thing here. - Right, you're right. - But instead, I'm asking you to do the right thing out of love for me, and I'd love for your slave, which is a really, that's a very, even in that exchange, he's sort of turning the idea of master, serve an obedient submission, authority, et cetera, sort of turning it on his head a little bit. - Yeah, yeah. So verse 16, Nate, can you read that? - Yes, I can. No longer as a slave, but better than a slave as a dear brother. He's very dear to me, but even dear to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord. - Okay, that is like earth shattering in that time. So looking from where we are, looking at why, it still seems like, oh, come on, you should just abolish it. But when you think of Acts, the culture it's in, like he's no longer a slave. He's better than a slave, meaning he is made in the image of God, he is a fellow brother in Christ, and I treat him that way, and I want you to treat him that way, and I plead with you as a, you know, a brother in Christ that you would treat him that way. - Yeah, yeah. - Well, and even like, you know, the words like, he is very dear to me, both as a fellow man and as a brother. It's like, even for us, both as a fellow man and as a brother, like a fellow man means nothing, but thinking about it as not as property, but as a fellow like image bearer of God. And even near, like, near to you, like as a brother in the Lord, yeah, just thinking about, that's a very different, a much more powerful message if that is a completely different worldview. - Yeah, I mean, Jesus talks around a similar concept in John 15, and this is one of those things where like, nuance needs to be, we need to sort of sit in the discomfort of this, because he says, "I no longer call you servants, "because a servant does not know his master's business, "instead I have called you friends, "for everything that I learned from my father "I've made known to you." And so it's almost like, again, a redemptive idea of servants, which is sort of like, you could almost read it, and again, nuance and humility, folks, to sort of say Jesus was trying to explain a new concept that was akin to being a servant who fully knew his master's business in some ways, and the closest he could come up with was friends, but that doesn't remove this sort of authority and understanding that would have been inherent to Jesus and his disciples. - Yeah. - In fact, when you think of our relationship with God, there are so many different metaphors that's used throughout scripture. Slave is one in the sense of just complete obedience and indebtedness too, but then we're also, you know, there's the potter and the clay, so he's molding us and shaping us. He's a shepherd, we're the sheep, we're dumb animals that follow him at the same time. - So there may be even a progressive elevation of our status in our relationship with God, and friends is kind of the next level, or we're not servants, we're friends, so we know our master's business, and ultimately we are the bride of Christ that is now still stained and impure, but one day, like we will be the perfect bride of Christ, and so when you think of that, the ultimate relationship between spouses, right, like the level of trust and equality and working together, being together is kind of like the highest metaphor of our relationship, and so that just to say, like, we're not just slaves to Christ, we're friends, we're servants, we're sheep, we're brides. - Yeah, and like so many more that we could even name that life. - Yeah, yeah. - So another verse that's really interesting in Philemon is the first 17, so he's saying this to Philemon, the slave owner, if you consider me a partner, welcome him, Onesimus, as you would welcome me. So this is pretty earth shattering back in those days too, because if any damage was done to any property, or any theft occurred of anything you owned, Paul should actually repay Onesimus. In that worldview, slaves are property, and so what Paul should have done was like, hey, I wanna keep your slave, so I'm gonna repay you. He's saying, no, no, again, you can see the elevation of he's not property, the way you would welcome me as a partner, I want you to welcome him, 'cause I know in this culture, we see him as property, but he's not, so welcome him, give him the dignity, the respect, the affection, and the trust as you would me as your partner. Like, that's just wow. - Yeah. - There's a, yeah, there's a lot, I mean, again, there's just a lot to chew on in all of these examples. It's just, and it's helpful to sort of, again, be reminded over and over, it's just not as cut and dry. If you cherry pick a verse. - Yeah. - Yeah, to sort of say, oh, look, God's head of slaves were fine, right, right. - Right, and in cherry picking, it's, I like web's wording of like it's, we kind of keep that passage frozen in time without looking at its trajectory. And so, yeah, so, you know, I would even say this too, like, I'm not sure even in Paul's time, if he knew where, I don't know, this is just a wondering, did he know where Z was when it came to slavery? - Right. - Or did he know, looking back, well, this is what God says about people and the story of the Exodus. And this is how we are to live in this day about what we know of what God has revealed and continue to reveal. - I think one of the things that's helpful in, again, in all of these passages is that nowhere, and I think this is where we can sometimes feel from our present perspective that we have a better understanding than we do, nowhere does Paul or Jesus eliminate the concept of authority and submission. - Yeah. - And I think a lot of times we sit here and simply say, like, no one should, like, there shouldn't be authority. Like, that's sort of the structure that needs to be broken down. And I don't think Jesus and Paul actually ever say that. It's, there's a, there's like a right way to live into that. There's a Z sort of, you know, way that that can be engaged in, but it's not the elimination of it that is the eventual goal. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah. - I was just gonna say something. Let's say that again, Nate. - Well-- - That whole thing. - Yeah, let me start from the beginning. Well, what actually made me think of it was, again, I was thinking about the passage in John 15 where Jesus says, like, I don't call you-- - Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right. - So it's, but I call you friends, but there still is the understanding of like a master. Like, there's still someone who, there's still someone who has the plan, you know what I mean? Like, there still is an understanding that, look, there is something that we're trying to accomplish and you're not forming the plan, but as friends, you're coming alongside. And there's, so I was just realizing there still is a bit of like an authority metric thing. - Mm-hmm. - It's not the elimination of that. That's the ultimate goal. - Yeah, right, right, that's good. Because ultimately, even in the New Heavens and New Earth, we fall in submission to Christ, right? And so that is not eliminated. So every good thing has the most potential for abuse. Marriage, relationships, authority, right? And so when we react to the bad examples, atrocious examples, you know, 'cause I mean, you could say this about marriage, right? Like, there's so many bad examples of toxic, unhealthy marriages, even in the church, even among Christian leaders. Like, I mean, part, you know, and sometimes this may happen to some younger generations. And I remember going through the season two where you just want to cancel marriage. It's so bad, all you do is see bad examples of it. You're just like, screw it, right? But that takes you outside of kind of like the intention of marriage. - Yeah. - The thing I was gonna say too, even about this is quick comment is like, again, when I hear people say, well, Jesus didn't, you know, say this or that. Like Jesus, I mean, if you, like the argument from silence, Jesus didn't forbid slavery either. In fact, you could make the argument. I'm just playing devil's advocate. Like, he talked about masters, like the passage you just read. - Yeah. - I mean, this is to point out the fact that you could make the Bible say almost anything. You could say, Jesus is actually in saying that, condone slavery. Nobody says that though, right? But you could make that case. - Yeah, nobody says it today. - Nobody says it today, right? Because again, they make Jesus the, and this is gonna sound weird, the ultimate kingdom where he is the incarnation of God in this world. And this is another common thing. And this is especially when it comes to women. People wanna pit Jesus and Paul against each other. And that is a broken view of the story as well, too. - Yeah, and it's helpful to see, yeah, Paul is also within a broken world trying to say, okay, how do we, and I think Christians, this is why Christians disagree today. It's like, how do we best live out the kingdom within the brokenness that is all around us? Like, we can't reach Z right now, but how do we best live out with the kingdom in our context? And I think, yeah, even today, it's like, yeah, what does that mean? What does it mean to like love each other, like the image of God that we are? I think different people will live that out differently in a broken world. - Yeah. - Right, and as it relates to the issues of slavery, you have people like William Woolover Forest and things like that. Christians, and out of a Christian conviction, actually worked to abolish slavery in England and all that. And, what does it gonna say, you know, so Woolover Forest, who fought slavery, and even John Newton, the author of "Amazing Grace", a former slave owner. And when they fought against slavery, again, when it comes to ideal, Z, and kind of Y.5, the culture they're in, Woolover Forest fought against slavery for decades. And I think the parliament banned slavery as Woolover Forest was on his deathbed. Right, and so you could see there is the ideal that drives societal change for greater redemption of God's purposes. But the ideal, what am I trying to say? The ideal and the fulfillment of that in society, there's always this lag. - Yeah. - Right, and so when you think about God, he has this ideal. So how do you treat a nation that's just been freed of captivity? - There is a lag, right? This kind of goes to the question of like, why can't God just tell them, like, this is wrong, this is right, do this, don't do that, right? Slavery is wrong, so, you know, why, because there's a lag? And as we hinted before, there is a, we need the grown capacity as people, or as a nation, to live into the ideal that God is calling us to. - Yeah, yeah. So we've been talking a long time, but I just, I want to touch on a couple more verses, really quickly, really quickly, because there's, because if you look in the New Testament, there are tons and tons of times where Paul or Peter say, for example, like slaves obey your masters, as if you're obeying the Lord. And that can really be, people can read that as like, oh, I mean, that's, slavery's okay. - Yeah. - I think what's helpful to remember in context is that each of those verses falls in a passage where they are saying like, look, you need to demonstrate that you are living differently than the people around you. And that represented not a, it wasn't a statement about the correctness of slavery. It was about saying the circumstance that you are in, do it this way so that people will understand that you are different. And I think that that is helpful, because again, I'm sure that those verses have been abused, you know, for centuries where people are like, hey, you're supposed to obey me, just like I'm God, you know, and that's not really the thrust of the passage. - Yeah, that's good. - Yeah. Well, thanks, Nate, for landing us there, and I'm sure we'll tackle more tough topics next time. - I mean, I mean, nap. (laughs) (upbeat music)