I got a story to tell everywhere to the true except for the part I made up for you just some history that has been reworded into a mystery called the way I heard it. It's official everybody's rolling it's a big day here at the podcast we're at the micro works world headquarters. This is episode number 391 it's called credit where it's due we're in person which is always fun and my special guest today you know him you love him you've probably formed any number of opinions about him I don't want to say too much but it's Chuck Klausmeyer. Hey how are you Mike I'm here man you are I'm wrapped in an American made flannel shirt sitting across from my old pal and upon your suggestion we're going to experiment a little today. You have suggested that I read a new story for the curious mind with a short attention span yep that I do it right here a camera yeah right so people who are listening should know that this does exist in video form probably on YouTube at this point. And I'm going to read the story live as it were yes and then we're going to talk about it as we have been doing you know I'm glad to say people seem to be buying it man I think they're enjoying these conversations we're having about these stories. We get a lot of comments about the stories people do love the stories it's a throwback to the way this podcast started which was brief mysteries for the curious mind with a short attention span that's right and that is working out and people are digging it. That's nice by the way I mean if you haven't heard and if you have the story behind the story is the format where we do this on the TV every week over on TV and now something to stand for is a movie that's been embraced really by that same format or vice versa that's coming out in theater So I mean how strange is this actually to be sitting here having this conversation right now knowing that what six seven years ago it started with me on a plane trying to pass the time. And now we got three cameras it's ridiculous really. Well you know before then I didn't work for you I just worked with you you would call me up and say hey I'm doing this job with Kimberly Clark do you want to come and when did you start working for me actually because I still haven't had that experience of thinking you actually work for me. I would appreciate if you wouldn't interrupt my stories when I'm trying to tell. I don't think so you know I forget things. I do. Now listen hey I got you your coffee didn't I? Yeah that's not working for me that's just getting me a cup of coffee. A lot of people would do that for any number of other people on the planet that they're not really employed by. Actually I don't think I did get him a cup of coffee did I know why he got his own cup of coffee. No you said you would. When got you the pen because you didn't have a pen. Anyway the point is I started working for you when this podcast was in its infancy. I started working with you when you called me up and said hey you want to act goofy on camera in a thing that I'm doing. Yes. Blah blah blah Kimberly Clark Novartis Ford all these different things we had a lot of fun. Sure. I think I started working for you in 2014. You said to me in 2010 and I'm not making this up it embarrassed me when you said it. You say this all the time. And I think you were embarrassed to hear these words come out of your mouth. This is wrong this is not accurate. You look me swear in the face and you said listen I want to be in the micro business. Not exactly what happened. No I recall you saying to me hey I needed assistant but you know it's got to be somebody I trust implicitly. And I said okay. No anybody. Yeah and and then you said you know it's got to be somebody who's willing to travel with me and handle stuff. But someone that I can trust implicitly and then you said would you ever be interested in this job. I thought about it for like a couple of weeks and then I came back to you and I said yeah I would do that job. And then you never mentioned it again. Because I couldn't believe you were even pretending to be mildly interested. Did this happen before or after you tagged along on the dirty job shoot that took us up to Wenatchee. Yeah. In Washington right we remember going to that hockey rink. This was after. So you got a taste of it. You got a taste of life on the road shooting dirty jobs with me. Sure yeah so I already knew what that was like. And by the way just a little sidebar that Wenatchee trip. Yeah. And people should know this about you in particular. Because people say he's the same guy in person as yet. He really is. And not only that but incredibly gracious and you really appreciate your fans because we were in a 4,000 seat arena that was packed. And when this game was over we had a box there. And all of the crew and me went down on the ice and we started playing hockey. They gave us skates and pucks and sticks. And we started playing with no like padding or anything. Well you were a pig and poop man because you love that stuff. Yeah you're a hockey freak. But while we did that you stood up there while all 4,000 of those people lined up and you signed autographs. And that was like an hour and a half after the thing was we were the last ones to leave that arena. Yeah you drew the long straw that night. You got to play hockey and I stood there like a Christmas ham. Yeah. Saying hello and thanks. And I met both those things. Look it was a privilege to do that show. It's a privilege to have you sort of in my life and pretend to bring me coffee and occasionally give me a pen. Thank you for all of that. I'm going to read this story. Am I going to do it now or are you going to play that little jingle you like to play? You're the producer. What do you want to do? I mean what we normally do with a preamble is we say you're going to read this. Oh I tease him and then I tell him I'll be right after this. Right so let's do that. Okay. All right. Keep listening. It's going to be a fun conversation and you're going to love this story. It's called credit where it's due. Chuck just gave me some. I just gave him some. And when we come back I'm going to give you some. Right after this. Dumb. The simple satisfaction that comes from building a thing is something I hear about every day. Whether it's through dirty jobs or somebody's got to do it or my foundation. Or just a random conversation with a construction worker who stops to chat and say hello. That theme. The satisfaction of building a road or a bridge or a home. It's always top of mind. Which is perhaps why skilled trades people and just about every field are flocking today to build submarines.com. If you haven't heard the American submarine industrial bases in the process of hiring 100,000 skilled trades people over the next decade. To start building Virginia and Columbia class nuclear submarines. I'm not talking about 100,000 jobs. I'm talking about 100,000 careers for skilled trades people in every area. Careers with excellent pay and constant opportunities to advance. Build submarines.com. That's where all the recruiting is happening. And that's where you should go. The website offers up to the minute access to thousands of different opportunities. And allows you to create your own career profile that will highlight your skills for any of the 15,000 companies that make up America's submarine industrial base. The opportunities are real and numerous at build submarines.com. Come on and build a submarine. Why don't you build a submarine at build submarines.com. In 1988, Touchstone Pictures released a movie that was so bad it won the Golden Raspberry Award for Worst Film of the Year. It was also nominated for Worst Screenplay of the Year, Worst Director of the Year, and Worst Actor of the Year. Roger Ebert called it "a monument to emptiness and fabrication." And every other movie critic in the country seemed to agree. Caught up in the midst of countless single-star reviews was a pretty young actress named Liz, who played the role of an aspiring artist who falls for the leading man. A man who, according to the Seattle Star, "chewed up every piece of scenery with a performance that demonstrated a unique ability to remove from his personality anything resembling charm or charisma." But Liz, God Lucky, she was spared a nomination for a razzie and survived the movie that nearly killed her career, thanks to scenes like the cringe-worthy montage that attempted to chronicle the unlikely events that caused the leading couple to fall in love. This montage, which the Montauk Monitor called "a ham-fisted barrage of platitudinous predictability" features the two co-stars on jet skis, cruising around the Caribbean with the wind in their hair, followed by a series of completely unsurprising moments where in the happy couple, dance with random street performers, stare soulfully into each other's eyes, laugh hysterically for no good reason, drive a jeep through a rainforest and nowhere in particular, and drink a few cocktails in a beachside cantina to the obligatory soundtrack of steel drums and reggae. At one point, the man nominated for Worst Actor of 1988, an actor whose performance the Altoona Cryer called "an unforgivable assault on plausibility and verisimilitude" sits on the beach, grinning, dreamily into space, as Liz tries to capture his likeness with pencil and paper. Before she can finish, he snatches the drawing from her hands and says, "This looks nothing like me at all!" at which point the young couple start wrestling around in the sand before falling into each other's arms and kissing with great passion. Then, apropos of nothing, they appear on horseback racing down the beach during the golden hour, where the soft light at sunset makes everything look a little bit better than it really is. And that's the moment in the movie that nearly killed Liz's career. During the first take of the horseback sequence, which was filmed from a helicopter, Liz's horse ran too fast, creating too much distance between the riders. "Cut!" yelled the director from his perch in the helicopter. "You guys need to stay closer together." Now, everybody back to one. During the second take, Liz's horse ran too slow, creating the same problem. "Cut!" yelled the director again. "Come on, guys. I need you to stay together." Back to one, everybody. During the third take, the horses ran exactly side-by-side, which blocked Liz from the shot entirely. "Cut!" yelled the director. "Okay, maybe not exactly side-by-side. Maybe one of you just stays a few feet in front of the other one. Figure it out. Back to one." At this point, the star of the film, the man whose performance the Paducah morning son called, "Soul-deadening, yet one-dimensional," became frustrated with the director and asked to review the previous takes so that he and Liz could see exactly what the cameraman was seeing and better understand precisely how much distance to leave between the two horses. The director instructed the pilot of the helicopter to land on the beach quickly. The pilot complied, at which point the actors rode their horses over to the idling chopper, dismounted, and jogged over to the open back door, where an aerial camera operator replayed the last several takes on a monitor. It was very instructive. Once the actors understood the angles, they knew exactly what to do. The director, eager to get the scene in the can before the golden hour came to an end, implored his actors to hurry along. Back to one, everyone. Come on now. Let's make this the keeper. Eager to please, Liz turned and ran back toward her horse, waiting for her on the other side of the helicopter. Unfortunately, Liz knew nothing about helicopters. She didn't know, for instance, that the tail rotor on an idling chopper was always spinning. Spinning so fast it was invisible to the naked eye. Thus, the pretty young actress ran straight into the whirling blades, slicing her into many small pieces and transforming the worst film of 1988 into the most tragic. At least, that's what would have happened if Liz's co-star hadn't delivered a performance worthy of an Oscar. According to Bill Bennett, the aerial photographer who witnessed the whole thing, the leading man didn't hesitate. He bolted after Liz the instant she took off and tackled her a split second before she ran into the whirling rotor blades. According to Bill, no one aboard the helicopter could move or talk. They were all frozen in shock, struck dumb by the disaster that was so narrowly avoided. As for Liz, she sat on the sand with her co-star, weeping with gratitude. You probably don't remember Roger Donaldson, the accomplished director who, according to the Sheboygan Register, "appeared to have misplaced his sense of direction." And you probably don't remember Haywood Gould, the talented and respected novelist who struggled with depression after winning a Golden Razzie for turning in the worst screenplay of the year. But you might remember the movie itself. A movie described by the Indianapolis Inquirer as "so relentlessly insipid, the unsuspecting viewers compelled to find the nearest bar, order a bottle of tequila, and pray he awakens with no memory of the film that drove him to drink." A film whose only redeeming moment occurred when the cameras weren't rolling. And a young actress named Elizabeth Shoe was dragged to the ground by a movie star who saved her career along with her life. A real-life action hero named Tom Cruise, who turned in the best performance of his career in the worst movie of 1988. A real stinker, called Cocktail. Anyway, that's the way I heard it. Ta-da! I haven't done that a while. Dude, you got all the way through that without one pickup, as far as they know. Oh, come on, tell them the truth. It's the truth. You did it. You did it all in one take. That's the beauty of micro. If you're cutting, you're lying. That's the truth, man. And you know something? That's why I'm not in movies, by and large. That's why I'm really not really in TV anymore. And yet you have a movie coming on. I do. But we shot that in a way that was really not annoying at all. Well, you shot the very opening scene last, as I recall. Yeah. And of course we shot the bulk of it over the last two years when I didn't realize I was shooting a movie. That's right. You had no idea you were making a movie at that time. And that's the key to getting me in film, Chuck. Shoot for a couple years. Just don't tell me why. And then cobble it all together and make a movie. That makes sense. Alright, be honest. What do you think of that story? I love this story. What's great about it is that you don't see it coming. You know, you fool us. We don't know exactly what's going on until the helicopter lands. And then it's like, oh, they're making a movie. But, I mean, I had no clue that this ever happened. Do you remember watching the movie? I don't. I don't remember watching the movie. No. I mean, I know that I've seen the movie, but I think I probably watched it on TV and probably didn't watch the whole thing. Taylor, you remember? I've never seen it. You've never seen cocktail? I've never seen it. Oh, my God. Well, then statistically, that means that a few people listening probably haven't either. Right. So, A, in spite of everything you just heard, let me recommend you see it. Because it has become a weird kind of touch tone. I mean, it was so badly reviewed. And yet, I think it grossed like $180 million or something. $71, yeah. Worldwide. Yeah. So, what are we to make of a failure that succeeds? No, I mean, it's so, I think that's what appealed to me. I stumbled across the story. I read Bennett's account of Tom Cruise saving, saving Elizabeth's life. And it's funny, the first thing I remembered or thought about when I read that was me in the theater on a date in 1988 seeing this movie and actually not hating it. I don't remember hating it when I watched it, but I remember seeing it years later going, boy, that's not good. And then I remember being really annoyed with Tom Cruise just on general principles because he was, he's always the best, you know. I mean, he's the best possible bartender. He's the best possible pilot. He's the best possible pool player. And that was just envy, you know. Yeah. And then I started thinking, you know, about the episodes we've done on this podcast about Scientology and the somewhat uncharitable things. I've said about him in the course of those conversations. Or at least his religion. His quote unquote religion. Or whatever, you know. But it's just like, we're left in life in so many cases with this weird yin and yang, you know, where we have to, we have to accept the fact that that was a really bad movie that made a lot of money. And Tom Cruise is one of the last great movie stars. Who's, you know, a little weird, right? If I can be so bold. And these two things can be true at the same time, in my opinion. I agree entirely. And people who cannot distinguish art from reality. It's like, oh, I don't agree with that actor's politics. Therefore, I hate him. And I won't see one of his movies. It's like, really? I mean, it's like, I don't like that. I mean, art is art. So you're either good at your art or you're not good at your art. And if you're good at your art, I want to see you do in your art. Now, that's from the point of view of the artist. And that makes perfect sense. But I'm wrestling more with the point of view of the viewer. Are you able to separate the man's talent from his religious beliefs or not? And isn't it interesting how so many Americans today have absolutely no problem at all. Ignoring all the straight up crazy pants stuff that's happened in Scientology. And elevating Tom because his talent is certainly worthy and deserving of it. But the minute you hear that, oh, John Voigt's over on this side of things. Dennis Quaid's on this side of things. So now all of a sudden becomes a litmus test, right? Alec Baldwin. Right. Oh, God. Well, yeah, there you go. Yeah. I mean, at the risk of showing too much of our slip, right? I mean, he is funny. Yeah. And talented. Yeah. And I found myself just wishing I didn't know anything else about him. I mean, that's just the way. That doesn't bother me. I don't know why exactly, but like, I can totally let all of that go. You know, when I'm watching, I mean, first of all, Top Gun Maverick. This movie was intense, amazing, and Tom Cruise was so good in it. Yeah. I mean, he just showed what a movie star is. Yeah. And what commitment is, I mean, you know, to shoot it at the time he shot it. Yeah. And we were filming, I think we were filming. Six degrees? No, I think it was returning the favor. What the heck was it? I was in Texas, and I drove to the theater to go see it. And it was the first time I had been in the theater in years. Okay. And I mean, if for nothing else, I do want to publicly thank him for that. That was a treat, you know? Right? Just a treat to be in the theater and to see a movie that didn't try and do anything other than entertain and celebrate movies. And look, it's a love letter to the military, and I appreciate that. But it was also a love letter to cinema and great movie making, and all of that. All I met earlier was, why challenge somebody to like you? Why dare them? You know what I mean? Like, if you're a political figure, or if you're a rack on tour, or if you're a gadfly, then your job is to say things that tweak people. But if your fundamental job is to entertain, like, what really happened to the movie stars of the day? I'm talking about, like, Jack Nicholson, he didn't give interviews. He would never come on this podcast. Yeah. I'll let you know. But they would never do it. Don't say never. Because you've got a way to out, right? He's got a new book coming out, and yeah, I've been talking to Luke. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we'll see. So I guess it's just a question of if you're going to put yourself out there, whether you're a movie star or not, and you're going to talk for hours at a time, truly unscripted world, then you're going to have to reveal some things about yourself, and then the viewer/listener is going to have to decide if that's annoying or not, good or not, problematic or not. And yeah, you know, for me, by and large, I think I'm with you. I think I'm pretty discriminating. I can look at one thing and not look at the other unless it gets personal. And Spanky Taylor came into my life, and I made it personal. Right. Right. Spanky helped me with publicity stuff for years, and then she appeared in a movie called Going Clear. Yep. The Disney, if you go on, truly amazing documentary about Scientology. And I just found myself angry, you know, at all on her behalf. Yeah. That's right. What happened to her was criminal. Criminal. And that's going on to or has gone on. I don't know if it's still going on, probably, but you know, has happened to, you know, hundreds of other people. There are plenty of other people who have stories like hers. I'm not in business with American giant because they make great clothing, even though they do, or because they make great clothing here in the USA, even though they do, I'm in business with American giant because we've been singing out of the same hymn book now for the last 13 years, American giant, just like micro works was founded on a really simple belief. Work is good. Work is not a curse, work is not a necessary evil, work is not a plot to keep you from happiness. In fact, the pursuit of happiness looks an awful lot like a full time job at American giant. Jobs bring purpose and dignity and respect and work brings people together. People who might never meet otherwise co-workers who become colleagues and friends. Work builds communities, in other words, and because American giant makes all their stuff in America, their company is a community. And boy, do we need more community in these United States. Go to americangiant.com/mike, use code mike and get 20% off your order. You'll find all sorts of high quality essentials there that are made to last a lifetime at american-giant.com, hoodies, t-shirts, jeans, they've got it all at 20% off when you use code mike at checkout. It's 20% off when you place an order at american-giant.com promo code mike. American giant, American made, American giant, American made. And I think maybe the other thing that was going on with me at the time when I wrote this was just the business of being critiqued, you know, and the business of criticizing. Because today, I mean, let's face it, thanks to, you know, thanks to Facebook, thanks to all the social media. It's we're all critics, like we all get our 15 minutes of fame, but we all get an unlimited amount of time to criticize everybody. And so, you know, here I am saying some critical things to Tom Cruise, and maybe that's lazy, maybe that's a cheap shot. Was it really you, or was it the Paducah morning sun, or the Chibwegan register? Anything you'd like to tell us about that, Mike? Well, those newspapers don't exist, folks. What? I made those newspapers up. What? And the quotes, to be fair, exist in part, but they're largely composites and amalgams. I combined them because I didn't want, in this case, to take a super specific critic and assign him or her to a super specific organ, right? Because there's no point to drag them into it. But since we're now talking about it, I've got one. Well, listen, in my defense, there is no shortage of brutal critiques of this film at all. Well, I mean, from what I remember of the film, well, first of all, can I just say this that you put Elizabeth Shoe in a film, and I just love Elizabeth Shoe. Who doesn't love Elizabeth Shoe? She's really, really good, and she's just so, she's that girl next door type. I just adore her. And if not for Tom Cruise, she'd be that girl next door without a head, you know? That's right. I mean, straight up, he saved her life. Credit where credit is due. Hence the title. And blame where it's due, right? I mean, everybody, you know, they're going to be times, they're going to be things you want to be remembered for, and maybe some things that you don't want to be remembered for. And man, if you're Tom Cruise, it's look at all those awards, look at all those relationships. Look at all the good the guy is done. Oh my gosh. You know, he's very charitable, very philanthropy, helped a lot of people. You know, I think he's, I think he saved other people's lives, actually. Yeah. There was a, apparently, when he was filming Mission Impossible 7 in the UK, he saved a cameraman's life on a train. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, he does, and by the way, too, as long as we're blown sunshine, man, I mean, how many of his own stunts has he done? I mean, and what kind of stunts are they? They're amazing. I mean, when he takes that motorcycle off the cliff and that Mission Impossible, and he did that six times. I know. I know. Can you imagine, can you, the director go up, that was great Tom, really good. I mean, super, super good, you know, and you lived, which is really, really important. But can we just get one more? I'm not sure that's what happened. I think what happens is he does it and he goes back and looks at it and goes, "I can do that better." So, it was him, you think? I think so. I mean, who in their right mind is going to say, "Sorry, Tom, I need you to risk your life again." I mean, can you imagine the insurance rider on a stunt like that, on a movie like that? But that's just the beginning. I mean, think of the motorcycle stunts he's done in earlier Mission Impossible's. Think of, "Oh, man, when I read a story, I think he literally either fractured, broke, or were sprained at ankle and was still running, still jumping, doing." Well, I think he broke his ankle when he jumped from rooftop to rooftop. That's it. In Mission Impossible. And that scene is in the movie. You see him get up and hobble off. He finished the take, but that was really him really jumping from a rooftop to another rooftop and he broke his ankle or fractured it. All right. All right. So, that's enough. Let's take a little air out of the tire with an actual review from CineCap's Digest. Okay. So, these are some of the reviews that I felt gave me permission to take a little what you call cinematic creative license here. I'd like to bring the Sheboygan Register and the Paduka Morning Sun into it. Yeah. This is a direct quote. We're meant to lap up the phony ambiance and showy flare bar tending, but Tom is supposed to be holding the center of this film. And not only is he uninteresting, but he's the sort of grinning pseudo earnest creep who cheat on a nice girl to win a bet, which might work in a character study, but not one where we're supposed to root for the guaranteed happy ending. A self-aware jerk is still a jerk. And the world he inhabits is just as shallow, just as empty and just as counterfeit as he is. I got that's funny, come on. All right. Here's the one that I got. This is from Rita Kempley of the Washington Post staff writer cruises walking in the footsteps of Troy Donahue and John Trevolta here. He does what comes easy. He bumps and grinds and grins till his lip's ache. It's a performance with all the intensity of wax fruit and cocktail is mud in your eye. Oh, God, do I hate critics? God, they're so awful. It's so easy. And here I am, you know, trying to be a self-aware as possible because let's face it, man. Yeah. To be a critic. It's so much fun, you know, it's so much harder to think and create than it is to judge. And now we've all been equipped with this tool. Yeah. You know, we've all been given gavels and we're all just out there, yelping this and glass during that and five stars here, two stars there, half a star for you. And my God, like the thing I really do admire about Tom and any other person in the public, I, who has been able to weather all of that with good humor is exactly that. Like you either learn to let that stuff roll off your back or better yet learn to laugh at it in the face or you don't. Well in Tom's defense, he never sees these things because he apparently doesn't have the internet. Because if he did, he would see that Scientology is a mother, well, there you go, man. Listen, it's a big world with many opinions and when we're, and we're all invited to share them and clearly that's happening here. You know, what made me feel a little, a little icky about this story, aside from the obvious plagiarism that I've confessed it, it's the way I heard it, sure. And I still stand by it. But I remember waking up in 2000, late 2003 and the pilots for dirty job had aired and I called the producer a guy named Craig the night before and I said, what are we hoping for here? I mean, what does success look like? And he's like, we need a one, Mike. We need a one. We need a one in the demo. That's what we need. We get a one in the demo. We're golden. What does that one represent? What does that translate to? At the time, it was probably close to a million viewers and a million viewers in the demo, man, we're looking for a million viewers, 18 to 35, something like that. Something like that, 24, 18 to 34, I think it was. Okay. That's the key demo. By the way, today, you get a million viewers overall and you're like, wow, they make you get a parade. You get your own channel, you know, and you get a hundred thousand in the demo and they love you. Yeah. I mean, CNN's getting a hundred thousand right now. Overall. Come on. Yeah. Really? Lowest, I mean, this is appalling. So I'm nervous, I'm nervous partly because I'm kind of hoping the whole thing tanks because this thing's not supposed to be a show. This was just a thing and now all of a sudden, there's a certain amount of interest. I'm thinking, God, if they like it, you know, I'm going to be crawling through sewers for the next 20 years. I'm not sure what to root for, but mostly I wanted it to work because it's always better if they like you and I wouldn't know. We like you. So I woke up the next morning at Craig called, he says, 1.1, we're golden and I was so happy and then I got an email from somebody who said, you might want to see this and I clicked on a review, somebody had written a review already and it was online and it was every bit as bad as everything. I just read you. Really? Oh my God. A middle-aged, tired, a pretender, crawling through a sewer to turn the average worker into a cheap punchline in pursuit of a pot of gold at the end of a dirty rainbow that he will surely never achieve. I'm like, what in the world? And I mean, this guy hated the show, didn't get it, hated me and all of the, the elation, all of the joy that I had felt, it was gone because a guy I'd never heard of had leaned into the lexicon and really cherry picked a couple of nice turns of phrase and shoved it right up my ass man. And I just felt so hollowed out and beaten, you know, and I didn't know how to feel about it. Back to the very first point, how do you feel about a movie that makes $171 million in 1988 that everybody hates? I mean, it's like putting on a pair of fresh underpants with a skid mark and a little bit of poop. You know, just a little bit of poop or maybe more than a little bit. Like you go through life going, you know what I want my underpants, 100% poof-free. Now, these are largely poof-free. We can get you 98%, I'm afraid there is going to be a little poof. Oh God. Or like, what would you rather have? Would you rather have a movie that is so well-reviewed, so critically acclaimed that nobody sees? No. What do you want? Where do you get your success? In the end, it's both feedback. You know, do you want a critical darling or do you want an audience hit? I got to tell you, when I look at Flickster for the reviews, Rotten Tomatoes and stuff like that, if I see that it's critics, 38%, audience, 98%, I'm like, I want to see that. Me too. I want to see that. Yeah. Because I got a feeling that's my kind of movie. Yeah. Yeah. Because a lot of those critics are bought and paid for. Is that true? Well, sure. They work for papers, but papers are no longer papers. They're largely on the ropes. And so all the funding that's keeping these enterprises on their feet, if you follow it back, there's an extraordinary amount of money that comes out of the studio system that ultimately finds its way to critics. And so, you know, how else can you explain? Like there were some glowing reviews of cocktail from people you've never heard of. Right. Like Tom Cruise and Elizabeth Shoe. No. Geez. Anyway, yeah, man, that's it. Credit where it's due, you know, and a lot of the other stories, you know, we've done on this thing. And in a lot of the conversations that we've had, it kind of comes back to that in some way. We're trying to figure out how to feel about notoriety or recognition, blame, the opposite. I always used to say with dirty jobs. By the way, as long as I'm confessing things, I found myself really in a weird place, like a few years down the road after the show did become favorable to a lot of critics. Free jobs wound up getting a lot of credit and people got up to speed with it. And then it became a pretty big hit. And then to my shame, I found myself resenting the credits. Like the actual credits in the show because I was credited as the host. You know, I never thought of myself really. I didn't want to think of myself as a host of that show. Well, you were more than the host of that show, but you didn't get the credit until much later. It took a long time. When you start to have those conversations, you realize a lot about your own ego. And it's not always good. But in the interest of fairness, I felt like, look, there are no new ideas. I mean, George Plimpton was immersing himself in the stories, Charles Keralt and Studs Circle and all these guys. So it's not like I had a revolutionary idea with dirty jobs, but it was my idea. I did film The Pilot. Yeah, you did. By myself. I remember seeing it. Yeah. And I shopped it. You know? And then I found Craig Peligen and he helped shepherd it through discovery and we finally got the thing made. But when it came down to it, at the time, I didn't care. I was just tickled to get this thing on the air because it was an honest tribute to my pop. And like I said, I wasn't even sure I wanted the damn thing to work. But then it started to, and then we got that rating and I got that awful review and I was like, you know what? I'll show them. And so we did some more and some more and it grew and it grew and it grew and all of a sudden it was what it was. And I'm thinking this thing in myself, you know, it's like, why am I feeling resentful? Why am I unhappy? It's the number one show on the network and other shows are starting to come out of it. And that's when I start saying to myself, you know something, I'm not the host. I produce this thing. I executive produced it. If that means anything at all, hell, I created it. And so suddenly I'm having this argument with the network and with the production company about a created by credit. It was suddenly important to me. And what's weird, Chuck, is that it never had been. But then it was. What do you think made it important later like that? I think because, you know, you knew me in the days when I didn't care at all about the work. Yes. I remember. It was. At all. Yeah. Travis McGee for sure. Yeah. I took pride in doing the best job I could on projects that didn't interest me in the slightest. Unfomercials, pilots, mostly commercial things, game shows, narrations, it's just like I always did my best, but I never gave a damn. Yeah. To be honest, that's kind of how Dirty Job started too, it was just a miscalculation. But once that those first lousy reviews turned into nicer reviews and then kind of like love letters, and then, you know, a foundation evolved out of that show. Yeah. Normally it was consuming like all of my time, but it wasn't just that, it was that I cared about it. You know, I mean, I really started to care about it. You didn't care about it. At first, it was a job. You had created a job for yourself. It's like, oh, yes. If somebody else gets credit for this, but it doesn't matter because I'm working. It wasn't dirty wish fulfillment, it wasn't dirty goals, it wasn't dirty dreams, it wasn't dirty laundry. No, it was dirty jobs. It was just a job, man. And I loved that part about my career prior to that. Like every job, I touched everything like it was hot, you know, beginning and middle in an end, you're done, take a week or two off, then go back to work when the coffers run dry and do it again. And in a way, Dirty Jobs did that within the show itself. Like we shot from sun up to sundown. And when we were done, we were done, we left, we never stayed longer, we never made a meal out of it. You know, we just like, that was it, life on a pig farm, life building a bridge, whatever. And off we go. But we stitched all of them together, and then it became this thing. And then the ethos of that show became micro works. And that became terribly personal because, you know, I'm out in the press talking about my grandfather, yeah, you know, who inspired all of this. And so suddenly, yeah, one day I'm sitting home and I'm watching the show and the credits come up and I'm like, you know what? That's wrong. I'm not hosting this show. I'm trying to shepherd, this is so grand, it's so ridiculous. And I hate to say it out loud, but it was a truth. I'm shepherding something new into television. And you know, it's not that I want the credit. It's just that I want the truth. I want people to know the truth is a story I'm telling myself. But the reality is I wanted the credit, you know, because I wanted to be able to take the show and everything beyond it and use it to get to whatever was next. And I thought that it was more impressive to have created this thing, than to simply, you know, show up and crawl through the sewer. Dumb. So I didn't switch to Pure Talk because they're half the price of Verizon, AT&T and T-Mobile. And I didn't switch because there are no contract wireless company with the money back guarantee. But I didn't switch because they're on the most dependable 5G network in America. Don't get me wrong, I like saving money and I'm enjoying more dependable coverage with Pure Talk. But the reason that I switched from Verizon is because Pure Talk stands for something that's bigger than reliable wireless at half the price. For starters, they invest heavily in US jobs. Their customer service team is 100% US-based and they are seriously committed to supporting veterans and veteran causes. I especially love what they're doing to help prevent veteran suicide. Not only does Pure Talk support America's warrior partnership, 30% of their new customers round up every month to support the same cause. And I encourage you guys to do the same. Again, Pure Talk is a no contract wireless company with a money back guarantee that actually stands for something more than great service at half the price. Check them out at puretalk.com/ro get great discounts on the latest iPhones and androids, international roaming in 50 countries and a 50% savings off your first month when you switch to pure talk today at puretalk.com/ro. Well, it was also true, you know, because it did come out of a segment that you did called somebody's got to do it way back when you were working for Evening Magazine. So I understand that. I want to circle back and hit two points in what you just said. One is that idea of like, you know, you're elated, you're happy. And then the next day you read this stinking review and it's like, what is it? Why can the words of someone who we don't even know who doesn't know us at all? But they can sting so hard. Why is that that we can be so hurt by a stranger? Because we're fragile. Because we we yearn for the opposite. We want to hear out of boy. We want to hear good job. It's something happened in the crib, something happened before my memories or you know, whatever it is, it's the same thing that happens to a lot of people. And look, what we really crave is feedback and we tell ourselves what we really crave most of all is honest feedback, but that's not true what we really want is out of boy out of boy. Yeah. Yeah. But what's interesting to me is the right, but at that, if your daddy loves you, yeah, my dad loves me. I want my dad to love, but a guy I've never heard of. Right. Why is it a stranger? And what I think it is, Mike, is that it's a showbiz thing because people in show business in general, I think you, me, everybody who's on in the front of the camera at any time. There is or on the stage rather than backstage craves love from strangers. I've heard a lot of comedians say this that it's like, I want to be loved by people I don't know, by the crowd out there. That's a thing. And so I think it's just the reverse of that, that when a stranger says something that's painful, it's like, Oh, no, I really want you on my side. Yeah. I mean, you ask it exactly right. You know, the only people who should be capable of hurting my feelings or bolstering, right, my feelings are people whose opinions I value. That's right. My friends, my family, right. Why would anybody give a tinker's damn about the opinion of a stranger? But we do. And you know what? I think it's related to something else you and I have talked about. I was telling you a story because a long time ago, but they were handing out bonuses at Dial America marketing. Oh, yeah. Of course. I know this. Yeah, man. And you know, you, you get a thousand dollars for a job well done. And the manager says something super nice to you. And the feeling is very similar to reading kind words of a critic. You know? They like me. Right. They really like me. And then they give you something. Oh, this is proof. It's money. It's proof that they like me. Right? They're with an Oscar. Everything. That feeling of affirmation. It throbs. Yeah. It courses through you. And your day is about as good as it can be. And then you overhear that Frank, on the other side of the office there, got two thousand dollars. What? And in the space of a second, all of your gratitude turns to ashes in your mouth. Yeah. And resentment. Yeah. You know, how is he twice as good? Yeah. And you know, that is the fault in our stars. Right. That's just, we don't know how. We don't quite know what to do with compromised gratitude. We don't know where to put a lukewarm review or a great review if it suddenly becomes subordinate to an even greater one for another film. We don't know what to do with other people's success in light of our own relative to our own. Yeah. That sucks. Ah, this sounds, um, when you just tell me, I'll tell you how it sounds. All right. I'll try that for a change. I'm so glad you're here to help me with the, before you evaluate the thing you say, go ahead and say it. And then I'll critique it. Well, you know, like you've, I've known you so long, you're like a brother to me. You know, and I, who was it Truman Capote said, you know, when one of my friends succeeds a little piece of me dies. Yeah. Yeah. Like I don't feel that. I know you don't. I don't feel that every time you would tell me that, you know, a great success at you. And I was like, wow, that is awesome. I was so happy for you because you're like my brother to me. I think there are people who success irritates me, but you're not one of them, but just because, you know, we've been so close because you, you know, you threaten to bring me coffee every so often. Now you don't, but the idea that you make up for it, you brought me a pen. Yeah. All right. I got a couple of questions. I want to ask, well, first of all, I want to ask you one more question. Going back to where we've gone before. And that is you were talking about reviews and stuff like that. It's like, what is the thing that you're most proud of that? Is it getting dirty jobs made? Is it being listed as the creator of dirty jobs? Or is there something else in your life that you are most proud of as a body of work? I mean, as a body of work. Yeah. We're talking about, you know, I wish you'd asked me a month from now. I don't know if I'm proud of this movie yet, but I'm really tickled that it got made the way it did. Right. I love that it got made the way it did because you could have never persuaded me to make a movie. You could have never done it. That's what six degrees kind of was and that was a hard road. That was hard because what Chuck is talking about is the singular contempt that I feel and the disdain that I have for what I call an affront to chronology. Right. Right. I'm not a literal person, but I'm a chronological person. Yes. And the only place in the universe where three belongs is right between two and four. And when you shoot a movie, eight might be one and two might be seven. And it's very, very difficult for me to understand where I am at any given time. And the only way you can do that, the only way you can do it, is with an extraordinary amount of trust. You have to trust your director. You have to trust the script supervisor. You have to trust your co-stars. And I'm not that trusting. Yeah. I don't. We were also a solo act, you know, by and large, by and large, I guess. Yeah. And look, that's what I loved about real reality TV. No scripts, no script supervisor, no real need to direct. I don't know what reality TV you were doing, but most of it. No, just kidding. Well, I mean, it's a good point because reality TV early on really was that. It lived up to its name. But then Hollywood came to it and brought with it all of the constructs of scripted. Yes. And sitcoms and movies and so forth. But look, I don't know if this movie will be well received and I have no idea how it will be critiqued. I hope that God more kindly than cocktail. It's going to be a mix, man. It's going to be a mix. There are some people who just cannot be pleased. And you know, for everybody who, you know, one man's treasure is another man's trash. Yeah. And again, what to do, right? What to do with the critic? Like what's Tom Cruise going to do? Tom, please don't sue me. I hope we meet one day. Why? Why? Why? Because being sued is no fun. Why would he sue you? Like, who knows, man? Maybe he's got an angry publicist. Did you steal his car or anything? No. Okay. No. I don't think he's going to sue me. Point is, I don't know what he's going to do. And I don't know what anybody's going to do from any moment to moment. If you go on my Facebook page right now, the top post, under the current post, is my reply to a guy who said, um, you are nothing but a washed up opera singer who never worked an honest day in your life. Get bent. Okay. Now, this is one comment, uh-huh. One comment in the wake of a couple thousand, now that wasn't signed, Peggy Rowe, was it? No. Then I wouldn't worry about it. No, but look, here's the point. And this again doesn't necessarily go to my credit, but he's the only one I responded to in that thread. Right. I do that. Like, why would I take the one guy who hates me and respond to him? And I was very kind in my response. I didn't engage him. I just said, Hey, look, man, first of all, you might be right, but to call me a washed up opera singer is not really accurate because that would imply that I would at first needed to have been an actual opera singer. It's true that I did sing in the opera for a while, but by your logic, that, that level of criticism, you could also call me a washed up skier, a washed up paper boy, a washed up jockey just because I used to ride horses, deliver papers, and try to ski, right? I think golfer too, right? Yeah. So, and then I said, you know, and what do you mean by honest days work? Do you mean a full day's work or do you mean I work full days, but never did anything worthy of getting done? You know, if you're going to insult me, I'd appreciate a little more precision and maybe just a tad of evidence. And finally, with regard to getting bent, I think we can agree that being bent is not a desirable state. I mean, like what's the point, right? To tell me to get bent is to invite me to enter into something less desirable than being not bent, but to tell me to get bent implies that I'm currently not bent, which is almost like a compliment. So thank you for that, right? So the moral of the story is hundreds of people responded to my response to him. Is any of this good? Is any of it bad? Does any of it matter? Is it all just navel gazing and a colossal waste of time? I don't know. Well, I mean, I think you've said to me before when I say, oh, hey, we got this great review or whatever he is. Oh, yeah. Well, whatever and everything. And it's like when I've said, oh, we got a bad review about everyone, that's one person, you know. So I think that the lesson that you were trying to instill is right that you can't take either of them too seriously, although we do everybody. So please leave us a five star review and see this is good because we really like a five star review and it means the world to me. Good God, dude. You know what? As a producer, you have the ability to edit that out. I would encourage you to consider it. But if you don't, good for you, but you know what, it really, that really makes the point. We are desperate to know how we're doing, not just you and me, Tom Cruise, Elizabeth Shoe. No matter what we tell you folks, we want to know how we're doing. And everybody wants, everybody wants feedback. And I mean, God, I mean, how many reviews does this podcast have? 35,000 more than yeah, almost less than 40, more than 35. Now, are they worth a damn because we ask for them? It's not like they're not like Bitcoin or anything, no, I can't go buy a Maserati with them. I've written songs, begging people to leave us a review. Yes. I mean, when you beg somebody for feedback, what in the world can you say? So songs are fun though. They are fun. We need to do one though, because I rotate them, you know, we got like five of them in a loop. It's fun. I'm working on one. Oh, are you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Talk to the symphony for the new world. Hmm. Oh, I know that. I know it. It's actually, it's rather beautiful. I'll play it for you one day and hopefully you'll give it a five star review. Great. Listen, I just want to make a couple of, I want to just some fun facts about the film. The character that Tom Cruise played, Brian Flanagan, was in Gould's protagonist, Gould wrote the book and the screenplay. Good book, by the way. Is that right? Did you read that book? Yeah, sure. It's terrific. Weirdo in a field jacket with greasy, graying hair hanging over his collar, his blue eyes streaked like the red sky at morning. Yeah. So, and of course, Tom Cruise looked like he was all of 12, but he was probably 24 or 25. I don't know how old he was when he did that. In '87, how old were we in '87? We're about to see Major Sim. '60s, '72, '82, '84, '56, '78, '26, yeah, there you go. The script, there were at least 40 different versions of the script, including adaptations made to suit Tom Cruise's character. Kokomo, by the Beach Boys, was written for the film. Yeah, and it actually, I believe, it went to, if it didn't go to number one, it was pretty close to it. Something else? I think there was another music. Bobby McFerrins, don't worry, be happy. It wasn't written for the film, but it was in the film and that hit number one. Yeah. Thanks to being in the film. Right. Yeah. So, listen, while we have a little time, we were going a little long here, but I've got a quiz, Mike. You know, I love to do these quizzes afterwards, because let's see how your research really panned out, okay? And folks, if you don't like what you're about to hear, feel free to critique it. Give us a one-star for you. No, don't tell us to give us a one-star. No, don't do that. That really does jack us up. But you could tell me about it. If you don't like it, tell me about it. Yeah, I would love to hear that. I loved it. Go to my Facebook page and tell me what you think of Chuck. What is Tom Cruise's real name? Are both names fake? No. Is his first name, Tom? Thomas. Yeah. Uh-huh. What is it? But it's not his last name. Oh. Yeah. I don't know. What? Thomas Cruise Mapother. Oh, the fourth. Yeah. Or I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. Maypother. Maypother. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe not. Yeah. In high school, what did Cruise, Tom Cruise, want to do with his life? Did he wrestle? Didn't want to be an athlete. He wrestled with his motions, yes. He wanted to become a priest if you can believe such a thing. Yeah, sure. I believe it. All right. Yeah. Fine. Uh, how many Academy Award nominations has Cruise gotten? Seven. Three. All right. Uh, 2020 Best Actor in a Supporting Role Magnolia. Remember that? That was great. Oh, yeah. You must respect the... I'm not going to say it. Anyway. And that was one of the... It rained frogs. Remember that? No, I don't remember that. Frogs came out of the sky. In Magnolia? Yeah. Oh, right. It rained frogs. Yeah. All right. 1997 Best Actor in a Leading Role, Jerry Maguire. Mm-hmm. And 1990 Best Actor in a Leading Role Born on the 4th of July. Oh. How many did he win? Three. Zero. I thought you said he got three. No, he was nominated. Oh, nominated. Yeah. How many did he win? Oh, no, he had one of anything. Yeah. You thought that was some kind of trick question? I did. I gave you three things and asked you how many. I just gave you. I thought it was a memory test. I thought I lost. OK. All right. Fair enough. How many Golden Globe Awards? Golden Globe Award nominations has Cruise gotten? Seven. That is correct. See? You just said seven. No, because seven is always the right answer to something eventually. I love it. OK. How many did he win? Oh, four. How did you know this? I didn't. Come on. You just guessed four? I did. All right. Great. Best Performance by an Actor in 2020. For Magnolia. Mm-hmm. Best Performance by an Actor in a Motion Picture Comedy or Musical, Jerry Maguire. That's a great one. Jerry Maguire. It's great, man. Those are great. Oh, so great. Oh, so earnest. And then you're fired. And so, yeah. That's right. Again, another opinion at this. Another skid mark and some otherwise clean shorts. You know, it's like, OK, you get to do the manifesto and you get to feel good about it. He also best performance by an Actor in a Motion Picture. A few good men. That was terrific. That was good. You can't handle the truth. Oh, gosh. I love that. That wasn't him. No, it wasn't him, but that was in that movie, right? That was Nicholson. Yes, of course. You need me on that wall. You want me on that wall. I haven't dismissed you yet. It's the line that he does. I love that line. And 1990, Best Performance by an Actor in a Motion Picture Drama, born on the 4th of July. I didn't buy him in that, honestly. I love Tom Cruise. I really do. I think he's a great movie star. And I just thought it was like you're too much of a movie star to play this role at this point in your life and you still look too clean cut to me. Well, you know what? I mean, had he really committed, he would have had his legs, you know? Gary Sinise did. Gary had his removes. Gary had his remove. And the put back on again, so. Yeah, amazing. And that guy's a real actor. He's committed to the bit, ran right into a tail rotor. What movie did Elizabeth Schu do? That's funny. What movie did Elizabeth Schu do right before cocktail? What movie did she do? What's she do? She did so well. She did. She did a movie, Daddy. Hey, man. Hey. I saw her as the copic about it. My God. It was open for Sammy. Honey, I married an axe murderer. No. That was later, I think. I don't know when that came, but it was actually adventures in babies. Oh, yeah. With issues are done. Right. Keith Coogan. That's right. Who I used to play poker with. I went surfing with him. Oh. When I came out to visit you. Right. Right. Oh my God. Yeah. Whatever happened to him? I follow him on social media. He's like doing all of the, what do you call those? The, the conventions, you know, where people get together and, you know, and he did quite a few movies. He did until I heard he ran right into a tail rotor. No, he. That was. See, look, if Tom Cruise is not around to tackle you. Yeah. That's what happened. That's what happened out of the fire. Yeah. Zippity, doo-dah, man. What movie was shoe nominated for an Academy Award? Nominated? She was nominated for an Academy Award. Uh, leaving Las Vegas. Yes. Yes. And where did she go to school? She didn't. Actually, she was home schooled by Wolverines. I'm afraid that's incorrect. She went to Harvard. Did she? Yes. She must be very proud. She was one month shy of graduating, I believe, when she left to pursue her career and then later, many years later, like 10, 15 years later, went back and finished to get her degree. I read it, where it's due. Hey, do you know-- have I talked to you about Eric? Eric Schatz before. Is this something we should talk about here? Yeah. It's a fine way to end this episode. Okay. Eric has a production company here in town called L-M-N-O Productions. L-M-N-O. It stands for Leave My Name Off. Oh, right, right, right. And I think it's the greatest name of any production company that I've ever come across. And I've come across a few, but L-M-N-O Productions is terrific. Credits are what they are and blame is what it is. Would it be funny if that's what the end of every film offered? The Blames. Oh, right. Instead of the credits. Exactly. The Blames. Who was it fault for this? Oh. Well, let's start with the producer and down the list we go. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one. That's a good one. Yes. You saved your life. That's pretty great. Congrats on your amazing career as well. Thank you for not suing me. We'll probably be back next week. Thanks, Chuck. I'll take that cup of coffee now. Sure. Yeah, no problem. I'm going to need my pen back, though. See you. Bye, everybody. If you leave some stars, could you make it five and before you go? Could you please subscribe? If you leave some stars, could you make it five and before you go? Could you please subscribe? If you leave some stars, could you make it five and before you go? Before you go? Could you please subscribe? The way I heard it is brought to you by Progressive. Most of you aren't just listening right now. You're driving, cleaning, and even exercising. But what if you could save money by switching to Progressive? Drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average and auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Multitask right now. Quote today at Progressive.com. Live casualty insurance company and affiliates. National average 12 month savings of $744 by new customer surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. 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