This summer, saddle up with the only sports book where you can bet on horse racing, FanDuel. Right now, new customers can get a no-sweat first bet up to $500. Just download the app or go to fanduel.com/horses to score your no-sweat bet up to $500. 21+ in present in Colorado. Offer valid on first real money wager of $5 or more. Verify FD Racing account required. Bonus issued in non-withdrawable racing site credit that expires seven days after issuance. Max refund $500, restrictions apply. See terms at racing.fanduel.com. Gambling problem, Paul 1-800-Gambler. Here's another show you can enjoy in the True Story FM Family of Entertainment Podcasts. Ever wonder where the devil got his horns? How about those clove and hooves? For that pitchfork. Wasn't he an angel? No, he was a snake. No, he's the great red dragon. No, he's the beast. He's the prince of this world. Prince of darkness. Well, he's the prince of dark. Good morning, Star Lovelies. One of my names is Lester Ryan Clark. And I sometimes go by Keenan Diaz. And we're the hosts of the brand new podcast, The Devil's Details. What comes to mind when I say Lucifer? How about Satan? What about just The Devil? How did the big bad of the western world end up with so many faces? Join us as we dig up, decipher, and deconstruct the devil's many forms throughout history. Take a guided tour with Dante through the nine circles of hell. Or revisit Satan's angst to bad boy years in Paradise Lost. Learn the ins and outs of a Faustian contract. Easier than a 1099, but with a hell of a lot more fine prints. Slither on over to The Devil's Details on True Story FM. And join us in the diabolic discussion. Love and hisses. Why? Didn't Alpha Chino play him in a movie? I sure that wasn't Robert. Didn't he? Just one, it was Tim. That was Elizabeth Kurtz. Didn't he go down to Georgia at some point? Hello and welcome to this episode of the Superhero Ethics Podcast. Friends, you know that if we're talking about Superman, Jessica Plummer is going to be our guest. And I've been talking to Reiki, who is also a big Superman fan. And he got me to watch the My Adventures with Superman animated show that's on Max. As always, animated DC is really hitting it out of the park. And for once, they've made a Superman story that I really like. And so I wanted to talk about the story with both Jess and with Reiki. So first I'll say to you, Jessica, hello. Welcome. How you doing? I'm good. Thanks for having me back. And I love any excuse to talk about Superman. My pleasure and my pleasure. And as I've just learned, right now I just call you Superman's Superfan extraordinaire. Soon I'll be able to refer to you as published Superman author Jessica Plummer with a new book coming out. May we'll have more about that in later episodes. And Reiki Haashim and our co-host, Reiki, how are we doing? Good. I'm excited for this because shortly before I started watching the show, we had been talking about Superman just as part of a conversation. And I think I mentioned it would be interesting to have the story where Superman was Asian to kind of reflect on the immigrant experience. And then I started watching this and I was like, wait a minute, is Lois on this show Asian? And it's finally been confirmed in season two. Right. It was kind of hinted at in season one and visually the voice actress, et cetera. But now it's been confirmed. And it got me thinking a lot about Lois Lane in Superman, which is why I wanted to have this episode. So here we are. Well, and what I really think is interesting because part of what watching this has helped me realize is how much my view of Superman changes based on the relationships he has with those around him. And Jessica, you and I have talked about a lot. So, Reiki, let me just start by giving you the floor. Why this question as the framework you wanted to discuss, this idea of not does Superman need Lois in the story? But as I understand it, does a Superman story need Lois? Why that question? Well, I started with it because the name of the show, it's my adventures with Superman. So it's like, who is the my? And presumably it's Lois. There's like a smaller chance that it's Jimmy Olsen in the show. But I think Lois is supposed to be the my and other Superman TV shows that I've watched, Lois and Clark, the new adventures of Superman from back in the 90s, and then more recently on the CW, there's Superman and Lois TV show. So by putting her name in the title, or in this case, making her the POV character of the title, I feel like there's something going on here with these TV shows where the Lois is very important. And to me, it also contrasts with the movies where I feel like Lois Lane, unfortunately, gets downplayed a lot for Superman. So that's why I want, you know, and having Jess here as the Superman expert to tell us more about all this, especially in the comics. Like I'm a fan of the character, but Superman is probably like my third or fourth favorite DC comic character. So I don't know as much about him in the comics. Well, luckily I had to read 86 years of Superman history in a month last year for book research. So I'm ready. I have so many thoughts for everything you just said, Ricky. First of all, like yes, Lois is, I think she's hugely important to the story, just like to start to answer the initial question. She was in the very first appearance of Superman. She's right there in action comics with him. She's the only character who has been there from the beginning. She is one of the oldest characters. She's older than Batman because he didn't show up until the next year. She to this day is the female character with the second longest running comic book in DC history after Wonder Woman. Like no Catwoman or back girl, nobody even comes close, honestly. It was Superman's girlfriend Lois Lane, which was also a best-selling title in the 60s outsold Batman. She's a hugely important character with a huge amount of history, but I agree that she is not always treated that way. And I think it's really interesting that you pointed out the difference between how she's treated in television versus movies because the immediate studies, they're absolutely is this idea that the big screen and the small screen are gendered. Like the big screen is considered much more of a masculine screen, I guess, and it's aimed at much more male audiences than those four quadrant audiences. And there's something sort of quote unquote feminized about the small screen. It's at home. It's domestic. It's the little woman watches while she vacuums or whatever. And I think it's really interesting that you see the female lead in this story is, you're absolutely right, so much more prominent in television adaptations of Superman going all the way back to the George Reeves version. Well, one of the first things I noticed is that, and granted, Jessica, you and I have talked about this a lot, and I think one of the comments you have made that I really most loved, because I think it applies to a number of superheroes, but especially the Superman lowest lane dynamic, is I hate the gaslighting of the romantic partner in order to keep the secret and how sometimes it's played for laughs, as I think can be done in very kind of patronizing, condescending, sexist ways. For example, or sometimes, yeah, because like you're driving her crazy and it's being played for laughs, Arrowverse and Wade Wilson's girlfriend, I'm looking directly at you, not Wade Wilson's. Barry Allen? Barry Allen, thank you. Yeah, the treatment of his partner, especially, and the fact that in this, fairly early on, we get to that issue, but A, people are telling Clark directly, lying to her is not okay. You are doing harm to her, you're going to harm to your relationship with her, that's not okay. And B, she figures it out almost instantly. And for me, Christopher Reeves, Superman, the Donner versions was what I grew up with. So that's what I think of. And so one of the defining part, one of the finding ideas of that relationship is in Superman two, where she leaps off the bridge to try to prove that Superman is Superman in at Niagara Falls on her honeymoon with Clark. And of course, though, her memory has changed and like all these terrible things are done. And the fact that they recreated that exact scene, but made it much more, not she's being a silly little woman, but she's an empowered reporter proving a point. And that Clark immediately recognizes that he screwed up. To me that felt like a very intentional, we're going to put a flag right here to say, this is a different kind of relationship with Lois. So I'm torn on how the show handles it, I'll be honest, because yes, like I love that she figures it out. I love that she is not told she figures it out because she is smart. And the thing is Lois, I mean, Lois always figures it out, like Margo Kidder figured it out. And then Superman uses alien powers to gaslight her, like that's what happens. She always figures it out, she's not stupid, he's just messing with her. This Lois figures it out. It's the fourth episode, like I was flabbergasted that she got it that quickly. I screamed when she yells, Clark after him, I screamed when she jumped off the roof because you're right. It's the Lois move, it's the go to move, and I love that she did it, it delighted me. But I don't think that their relationship is at all comparable to most other versions of the characters, and certainly not to something like Barry and Iris on The Flash. Because Barry and Iris had been friends since they were small children, they were foster siblings, which it's weird that they got married, but we've all agreed that we're going to pretend that didn't happen. And he was actively conspiring with her father and her boyfriend to gaslight her, and not knowing was actively putting her in danger. Whereas on my adventures at Superman, they've known each other for two weeks, and she is mad that he doesn't tell her the deepest secret that he has that actively in dangers to him, and his parents that he has never told a single other person in his entire life that we know of. Jimmy doesn't know, and they've been friends for at least four years at this point. I mean, Jimmy does know, which is the other thing that is amazing, and I just screamed at that too, because that is, but I've always in my heart wanted Jimmy to just know, and he just never mentions it, because as long as he doesn't say that he knows, he gets two birthday presents every year. Yeah, I wouldn't tell either, but I just don't think I don't think Lois and Clark's relationship is at the point where she's entitled to that information. They're not dating. They haven't known each other for very long. And she literally begins the relationship by lying to him and almost getting him fired on his first day of work, and she ends the season by lying to him again, by hiding the like ball of evil Superman that she gets from the League of Lois Laines. And she's like, how dare you lie to me? I hate liars. And it's like, girl, that's all you do. So that's fair. That's fair. I love the idea. But for me, I think, honestly, I think the problem is they didn't have enough episodes. I think there's a lot of stuff in their relationship and in all the characters' relationships, including their relationship with the community that would feel earned if they had 22 episodes and there were like 12 months or the week episodes in this season, but they don't. And so it's like, why are you mad? You met three days ago. It's interesting. I didn't think of any of that. I mean, because maybe I'm just, I'm so used to the Lois and Clark relationship of this is a conversation happening years into their dynamic and are like after they've actively fallen in love or something like that. But yeah, no, that's a good point. Yeah. And I think the show often does a really good job of trading on like what we know and expect from a Superman show. Stuff like the relationship between Lois and Clark being turned on its head by her figuring it out so early. Stuff like the relationship between Clark and Jimmy being turned on its head by Jimmy always knowing those things land really well because we expect things to go a certain way. Even like the gradual reveal of who Alex is, is such a great like tease for the audience that's in the know. But then sometimes it doesn't quite work. Like when the characters are like, we know metropolis better than anyone. And I'm like, do you, you haven't been outside? What are you talking about? Yeah, the Alex thing. I had dismissed it in season one and I think early on in season two, maybe even the episode where it's revealed to the audience, I turned to my wife Sarah and I was like, wait a minute. They brought this guy back, his name is Alex, like, oh come on. But it's good. I think it's good when you have properties like Superman that have so much history and so many characters that we know from all, all media and you pepper stuff in in the background sometimes. Sometimes it's just background characters like a name drop or Easter egg. But even like someone as prominent as Lex Luthor to Superman, the ability to have him as a character in season one. And I would say for most people to not realize who that was going to become or is, I call that a triumph for the writers. Yeah. Absolutely. Like the fact that they saved him for so long and they're throwing out villains like live wire and the mist as early villains, like the mist isn't even a Superman villain, but they're really like throwing in some, you know, sea list villains in there and taking them seriously. How dare you live wire? I would call live wire be list. That's it. Yeah. And I have a lot more to say about the relationship with both Lois and Jimmy, but Ricky, to kind of take it back to your question, I think we're talking about the relationship. But the nature of your question was more about like, how do these relationships themselves shape Superman? Same more about that. Because I think you're really onto something there in terms of how I see Superman at least. Well, the dichotomy between, you know, we mentioned between TV show and movie, right? Like a movie is an hour and a half to three hours. Let's just say a couple of hours and if a Superman movie has to have a certain amount of action in it, like that's just a requirement these days. And I think the issue is that Lois to Superman is such an important character for like who he is as Clark Kent, and in a movie, we just don't have time to have as much Clark Kent. So I think it is, you know, we often talk about Superman and Clark Kent as different people quote unquote. And I think the issue is that Lois is an important character for Clark Kent and is less important for Superman. I would say we see that in the Justice League/Justice League Unlimited cartoons where Lois shows up maybe like twice across five seasons because there isn't that much Clark Kent on that show. It's mostly Superman because it's like so much action oriented. So for a TV show, whether, you know, it's like a 10 episode season or 20 or whatever, you have to have more Clark Kent, you have to have more of that human interest angle. And I think that that's why we get more prominent Lois on a TV show. And that's important because if it was just like action, action, action, Superman, like I wouldn't, I don't think I would enjoy this show. That's, you know, you mentioned CW Flash and frankly, like that's one of the reasons that show was less interesting because they relied a little too much on the Flash and having an action sequence in every show, in every episode. And it didn't play well because the special effects budget was not that great. So yeah, I think for a TV show like Lois Lane is absolutely important because Clark Kent is more important. That's my thesis, I would say, is that this show has to be about Clark Kent as much as it is about Superman. Yeah, I close signed that 100%, I think you're absolutely right. I would go further and say that the correct genre or at least the best genre for Superman to be in is a workplace romantic comedy, which is what Lois and Clark was, the 90s TV show, which I personally think was the best adaptation of Superman we've ever gotten. All the ticks of some of the actors aside, the show itself is great. And I feel like, again, it's part of why TV works for Superman is because they don't have any budget when it's live action. And so you kind of, you have to do stuff with Clark because you can't afford to do stuff with Superman. And I think that's good for them. I think it forces them to be creative. And obviously animation doesn't have those limitations. And I would say that, like you made the point about Justice League and J.O.U. and not really having much Lois or even much Clark, I would go on further. Superman The Animated Series has almost no Clark and Lois is used kind of just as a reporter, like that relationship is not very new on that show, which I love Superman The Animated Series, but I do think that it suffers, one of the reasons it suffers in comparison to Batman The Animated Series is because it doesn't dig into character and his psychology and his relationships in the same way that the Batman TV show did. But yeah, I say workplace romantic comedy and all three of those words are really important. It should be taking place at the Daily Planet. Like we should see that setting a lot. It should be very much revolving around his relationship with Lois and it should be funny. And my adventure Superman checks all three of those boxes. Yeah, I think this is really true. I think part of what this is helping me put my finger on is that I feel there's a very big difference between Clark Kent shows and Superman shows. And part of it is the questions that they're asking and that a Clark Kent show, which is about Clark Kent, who occasionally moonlights as the Superman persona is mostly about his relationships with other people and how he's defined by those. A Superman show is about the ethics of being Superman, where I feel like the main people he plays off of are not necessarily Lois and Jimmy, but now as Batman, or other people who have different approaches to being like the superhero or Wonder Woman or, you know, whoever it is, or his enemy is primarily such as like Brainiac or Lex or those who challenge him in those kind of ways. And especially for this show, I'm interested in Ricky particularly since there's one you and I have talked about, I watched some of these episodes with Mary, my Spouse, and one of the first things she said when she was watching is, is this an anime? Because for her at least somewhat with the animation, but also just the style of the way the characters were relating to each other, it felt very much like that. And I, I don't say I put it as anime necessarily, but this felt to me like a kid's show. Everything was a little bit overdone. Everything was a little bit like painting in broad strokes. Like the villains didn't act like I think an actual villain would act. They acted like someone who's trying to tell you very specifically they were a villain would act. And some of like the funny moments around Jimmy and stuff like that, not in a like I felt as an adult like I wasn't, it felt kind of like something like Avatar the Last Airbender in that like it is a clearly aimed at kids, but done intelligently enough that adults can also still really enjoy it. Does that make it, Ricky, I'm kind of curious your thoughts on that, both on like it being anime kind of connected, but also just that general like the kids show aspect of it. Well, yeah, this is the studio I've mentioned several times, Studio Mir is the South Korean animation studio that makes the, that animates this show. And I've mentioned them, they did the X-Men 97, Voltron, Defender of the universe. And so their style is, you know, more anime than a lot of American cartoons, of course. This is an American cartoon, but I'm saying like, no, the other stuff we, we, we watch. And I think, you know, the writing as well, what would the, the romantic workplace comedy thing like really hit a nerve in the right way for me because I agree. And that's, that is a thing like for me, like anime, yeah, I love the Mecha anime, but I also love like sports anime and you got to have like these relationships kind of on the side of the, the sports action. So that's how I view this is like, yes, like we're gonna have the Superman action, he's gonna have, you know, super villain to fight probably every episode or every other episode. But gosh, darn it, like the, the human aspect of it is so important. So, um, what was your other question, Matthew? I talked about Studio Mir. Oh no, I think, I think you've kind of really addressed a lot of what, what I was getting at there. I will also point out that the first time Clark puts on the super suit, he has a magical girl transformation and it made me so happy. Like I was so delighted by his twirling into that. And I don't know who's, who's making those decisions, right? Like is that the animators at Studio Mir, like do the writers who write the script, like give some notes on how they want something to be animated? Because a similar thing, the opening credits is so anime to me, like the use of the song and like the way that it cuts so quickly, like it just, I don't know, it, it really appeals to me in that regard. Yeah, Mary, I think I'm remembering, Mary actually said specifically that it was the opening credits, especially that we're like, oh, so this is like Americans doing anime. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it'd be interesting to know like where it storyboarded, if it's storyboarded here in states or if it's done, because I think that would answer a lot of questions, of those questions of like who makes that decision. Mm-hmm. I will also say, and I wonder how many people have the same experience because I'm about to talk about how this show is influenced for me by a very, very different show that has a very different age relationship of who should be watching it. Have you either of you seen The Boys? No. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I don't want to say refuse, but I will not voluntarily watch that show. Yeah. It's not my style. It is not for everybody, by any means, it's probably my favorite superhero show out right now, which says a lot about it. Yeah. I believe that. Yeah. Well, here's my... My understanding is that it is a very well made show, like well written, acted, et cetera. So like I'm not criticizing the show or people who like it, it's definitely not my taste. Yeah. It is a very well, is a very well made version of a very particular kind of dish that not everyone loves. Yeah. But the reason I'm bringing it up is to give just a very basic idea of the show, most of it's about these very cynical, very powerful people and this one very nebyshee guy who is powerless compared to everybody and always scared all the time, but also incredibly idealistic and always wants to see the better of things, even though everyone around him is so cynical. And that character is played by Jack Quaid, who's the voice actor who plays... Oh, yeah. Yeah. Wow. I have to imagine that for me at least, that influenced a lot because most of the time Superman is being played by people who have the lantern jaw and the confidence that goes with that. And I've always sort of felt like, and maybe some of the other versions I would not feel as quite as much, like watching Christopher Reeve try to be awkward, like he was decent at it, but it still looks like an NFL linebacker who people would be throwing themselves at under any circumstances, glasses or no glasses, and let alone Henry Cavill. I think, Jessica, you once described him as just the word handsome, embodiment in human flesh. It just looks like a drawing of Superman. Yeah. The idea of these people being a socially awkward as Clark is supposed to be always felt off to me in some way. Jack Quaid's voice, I think, I associate with that kind of character, but also I just think his voice is perfect for that kind of character. In part because, I mean, he's maybe like 140 pounds soaking wet. Like the man is not the Superman build, and I think hasn't lived the Superman life because of it, he is just the perfect actor for me, and I think makes me feel like Clark can't see much more relatable character than I normally ever would. So, I disagree about Christopher Reeve, and I think back to there's a clip that often goes around and goes semi-viral every year or so, where I think it's in Superman 2, where Clark is about to tell Lois, his secret. It's in one. Oh, that's in one? Okay. Yeah. He takes off his glasses and his posture changes, his voice changes, and he's talking as Superman, saying Lois, I have something to say, and then he changes his mind or something, puts the glasses back on, shrinks back down, and then turns back into Clark Kent, like, "Oh, I'm coming, Lois." Oh, that's fair. His acting is so good in that, like, he is two different people, right there, two different characters. So, I understand what you mean about the size of a person, like, you can't really get around that, like, to have the same person play both characters, but I think Christopher Reeve did credit to the dual nature and transformation personally. Yeah. That's possible. As I've mentioned before, I lived in the building with a man, so I saw him in person that three years old, so he was a literal giant, which may have affected the man in the world. And my daddy sued him, which I had a lot of fun with in nursery school, but that's a whole other story. But anyway, Jessica, you were going to say. Oh, yeah. I think the versions that handle that, like, first of all, I am very much in the family of -- or in the camp of -- that's just how Superman works, like, he puts on glasses and everybody's fooled, and we're just going to have to believe, like, that's just -- and also, he can fly. Like, it's just part of the -- the -- baked into the concept of Superman, and like, you know, pictures will go around of, like, Zoe Deschanel with her bangs push back, and it's like, I've never seen that woman in my life. So really, like, when we're used to seeing someone a certain way, we can be fooled. Like, I do think it's as plausible as anything else, but I also think that the best takes on Superman are the ones that acknowledge that he is actually, like, this big beefy -- like, this is a huge slab of Kansas beef who's also really nice and polite. He just happens to, like, wear a suit jacket that's a little too big, and he kind of hunches and maybe he's a little clumsy. And, like, I'm thinking of -- in the -- in the stage musical, it's a bird, it's a plane, it's Superman, which was a huge flop, and it's terrible. Like, I'm not saying that's a good adaptation, but there's literally a whole makeover song in which the female character who's not Lois is like -- it's called "You've Got Possibilities." And she's basically like, "Look at you. The problem is not you. The problem is how you present yourself." Oh, cute. Which, of course, he's doing on purpose, but, like, it's an acknowledgement that he can have the same body and then just, like, radiate out a different persona. So she does the -- she's all that to him, and, like, if you just take off your glasses? Yes. It's great. I mean, it's terrible. It's also great. And you can watch it on. And maybe -- and I'd love to hear more of the thought process, because my guess is that in previous animated Superman's, they have found a voice actor who can play Superman. And it felt like to me -- like, I don't think anyone would have ever associated Jack Quaid with Superman before this show. But I think associating Jack Quaid with Clark Kent makes perfect sense. Like, that's kind of what I'm saying is he feels like a character who fits Clark Kent perfectly, and they can also pull off Superman in a way that, like, Henry Cavill is Superman and Christopher Reeve, and, like, yeah, and maybe they are good enough actors to pull off the other side as well. But Quaid, at least for me -- and, again, maybe just because I associated him so much with some of his other characters, but he just, to me, is much more Clark Kent forward. Yeah. I mean, we kind of don't know if Henry Cavill could pull off Clark Kent because he was only Clark for, like, 30 seconds in those movies, and 27 of those seconds involved him getting into a bathtub with his shoes on, so it's all just, like, pretend that didn't happen. It's interesting that you're talking about specifically, like, voice actors and how they play Superman and Clark Kent because this goes all the way back to the '40s and the Superman radio show, and Bud Collier, who voiced Superman on the radio show, which ran for, like, over a decade. It was hugely successful and had hundreds of episodes. But it was his idea to drop his voice in octave when he switched between Clark and Superman, and you can literally hear him do it in every single episode because something will happen and he'll go, "This looks like a job for Superman, and it's incredible to hear," because you're like, "Oh, he did it." See, here, that transformation, you can see it, you feel it, and it's informed literally every Superman performance since, but it started on the radio. Yeah. And I feel like they haven't really gotten there on this show yet because he starts the show as just Clark Kent and kind of is in the process of developing Superman, like, in front of our eyes. So I think he might have even had that weird awkward, like, has to, like, roll, roll, like, what goes way down intentionally, like, when he's discovered, so he's not quite there. I think we'll see more of that, perhaps, of him, like, deliberately changing. Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. And that's one thing that I think is really interesting about this show and that I really like. The characters are so young, like, they are so young. Yeah. This is younger. I mean... Early 20s? Yeah, they're... Lois says she's 23. And I wish... This is the first job out of college territory. It's a... Yeah, and she's been there for a year, so she might be a year older than Clark and Jimmy are. This is also the first time that Jimmy is the same age as Clark and Lois. But... So Jimmy is really... Jimmy is actually the age we usually see him at, but Clark and Lois are so much younger than we normally see them, like, even in the Superman movie, the Christopher Reeve one, he's 30. He's canonically 30 in that movie because he's 18 when he goes to the fortress solitude, and then he's just hanging out there listening to Jor-El for 12 years. Eating a lot of polar bears, I think, like, there's not much protein up there. I... Who knows? Maybe those are the last years where he goes to college and he dates a mermaid, which is what happens in the comics, but, like, in every other take you have a plug, right? Who doesn't date a mermaid in college? In every other take, you have a Clark who's like... He does... He has, like, a gap year. He travels the world. He learns how to do what he does. He doesn't have any of that experience. Lois doesn't have any journalistic experience whatsoever, and it can sometimes be... Like, sometimes I want to snack all of them and be like, "Go make copies and get coffee. You are interns. Stop it." When they go to that party and they're asking questions of all these rich socialites, and they're like, "Oh my God." Oh, no. That was so awkward. I will say, just from that perspective, one of my favorite comedic beats, because, again, they could have oversold it, but they didn't, is when Jimmy now has his interns because of the Firebird project, and he complains to Perry about it, and, like, I have never seen Dead Pan and animation done quite so well, but they animated the perfect Dead Pan face, and I was like, "Yep, that's it." It's so good, but it also goes back to what you were saying that, like, this show, I'm not exactly sure who the audience is, but, like, they literally have four to ten-year-olds. I'm sorry. It's 11, but children, like, working at the paper, we're supposed to take it pretty seriously, so I think it's a kid-friendly show, for sure. But going back to the idea of Clark and Lois being so young, I think it also, like, it's something that I try to remember when it's like frustrated with them, like, they don't know what they're doing. Their children give them time, like, I feel like Lois, in particular, like, her, like, she's kind of a maniac. She's always a maniac, but she's kind of earned it, and most of the time, when we see her, she's like, "Well, okay, being completely unhinged has gotten you several Pulitzer's, so go with God," and she's not there yet, and so when she does, like, bonkers stuff, and it's like, "What are you doing? Well, I guess it's going to get you a Pulitzer someday." She hasn't ripened, you know? Yeah, like, when I think about the Christopher Reeve movies, and I think this is a little bit in some of the other versions, but especially in, like, Margot Kidder, Lois Lane to me, you could put her into a Hallmark Christmas movie as the career-driven city girl who needs a guy in a plaid hat to teach her the true meaning of Christmas, and it would be a perfect fit. Hopefully the dynamics she has were where Christopher Reeve Clark Kent, Superman, is the one helping her to, like, you know, maybe you can, like, open up to people more. I've been very much the Hallmark Christmas movie dynamic. I want to say more about his relationship with Lois Lane, but I want to talk about that. Real quick on the Hallmark thing, it's funny that you said that because I have actually seen a post on social media where somebody was like, "I want a reverse Hallmark movie," where the corn fed boy next door moves to the city and falls for, like, fast-talking career-driven, like, driven career woman, and somebody else is like Superman. It is a reverse Hallmark movie, and I was like, "Oh, that's why I like it so much," because I am pro-city and anti-leaving it ever. Anyway, sorry, go ahead. As I look up my suburban wasteland, I understand, but, although it turns out, I like, you know, space. Let me talk about his relationship with Jimmy somewhat, because you're right. It always feels in a lot of the things I've seen of, you know, him and Lois are contemporaries of each other. She has, Clark and Lois are contemporaries. She has much more journalistic experience, so she's kind of his boss and kind of pushing him around, and that helps be some of the awkwardest. But then Jimmy is, like, this kid who they've kind of adopted who hangs around with him a lot. I mean, he's 21. He's an adult, but, like, you know, oh, yes, Mr., you know, Miss Lois and stuff like that. Well, exactly. It's 18. It's really unclear. That's fair. That's fair. Here, though, like, I didn't push back a bit even on what you said, Ricky, I think it's intentional that my adventures in the Superman could be Jimmy just as much as it is Lois, because we've had episodes that are about, like, where Jimmy was kind of jealous of, you know, hey, you and I have this relationship that goes all the way back to college, like, there's kind of a trope recently of, like, the guy, his best friend and his girl, and the three of them form, like, you know, the Scooby gang. And that's what this very much feels to me, and that, for Clark, the two relationships are very equal for him, and that they're both dealing with their complexities and their problems and stuff like that. And we're seeing a whole new set of them now with what role in season two that we'll get into in a different conversation. But what do you guys think of this relationship with Jimmy? Because it feels to me, like, again, making them equals and making them, like, not even that they meet at the planet, but they were, like, you know, college roommates, maybe even, like, friends from earlier, that, again, it really helps to humanize Clark Kent in a way that we don't normally get. Yeah, I mean, I love it. Jimmy has always felt a little underutilized, I think, in the, you know, again, we're like, if we talk about movies, they're often, like, isn't a Jimmy character, or there's just a cameo, like, in one scene with Harry. So having Jimmy Olsen be a fully formed character is, I think, secondarily important to having Lois here. And as, yes, for the contemporary, like, same age thing, I dig that. We do have kind of, like, younger Jimmy stand-ins in the, what were they called again? And here's Kid Legion. Yeah. Which, have we ever seen, have we ever seen the Metropolis version of the Baker Street or regulars? Because that's not very much felt like to me. Have we seen those comics? Oh, yeah, they're, they're, they go back to the 40s. I mean, I can, I can definitely gush about the news, Kid Legion, because I'm so thrilled that they're in the show. But I do want to talk about Jimmy, but Ricky, I didn't want to cut you off. No, I'm good. I'm good. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, no, I, I mean, we're still on the same wavelength. I absolutely agree. Like, Jimmy has been really underutilized, like, you're right. Like he, he shows up for a cameo in every movie. And then Harry goes, don't call me chief. And that's it. That's what he does. Sometimes he has a bigger role in a TV show, but not always. And sometimes I see a agent. Sometimes he is the CIA agent. Like, sometimes we have whatever the hell happened in Smallville with him. Like, who even knows, when he is, he's been a Linkin of the Superman universe since, well, so originally he, he shows up as like a copy boy for like one issue in the 40s that we don't see him for a million years. He really became a major character in the radio show. And it took him a while to sort of establish that presence in comics, but he also had his own long running comic book, Superman's pal, Jimmy Olsen, it was like a huge character for the 50s, 60s, 70s. And adaptations, like modern adaptations don't seem to know what to do with him. And I think that the show like boiling it down to he is Clark's best friend instead of like he has to be sort of this junior cadet character, but he is Clark's best friend. Clark needs a best friend was really smart. I think this is the best Jimmy we've ever gotten, like there's no comparison, by far the best Jimmy we've ever gotten in any adaptation. He is, like you said, a completely fully realized character. He is the funniest character on the show, he has all the best lines, he has all the best gags, but he's also like a three dimensional human being. There's this moment, I know we're mostly focusing on season one here, but there's a moment with him and Clark in season two where they're like in that they're at a star labs presentation and they're in this anti-gravity pod and they're like floating around. And Clark tells Jimmy, he gives him a little speech of like, you saved me by like the first day we met because you treated me like I was normal and you were my friend and you accepted me and you always have, which like, guys I teared off like, yeah, it's just love each other so much. Yeah. And honestly, after growing up seeing years and years of men only like relate to each other by punching each other in the nuts and telling jokes about each other, but with your girlfriend, you can actually have vulnerability, like, we're about like five or ten years into this becoming a lot more normal, but it's still every time I see a male character have a male best friend and they have genuine emotions and genuine emotional problems with each other and work through it because their friendship matters. I love it. It's so powerful. Yeah. Like they talk to each other, they confide in each other, they hug and I know where I talked about it, but the moment where Jimmy is like, oh, is this about how you're Superman and Clark is like, wait, what? Why didn't you say anything Jimmy is like, it seemed like something you were sensitive about, like, so good, so good, and like, and I'm glad he got that moment. Yes, like he he deserves it after his decades of just being yelled at by Perry and not doing anything else in adaptations and like the episode is kidnapped by Mr. Mala and the brain and their like, your friends, you're appreciate, you're not like absolutely every Jimmy plot line, the episode where he's just hanging out with Steve Lombard and he's like, I am not the Steve of the group. They're all choice. Like they're all so good. I mean, just the like, there's a lot I don't like about season two. That's gonna be his whole other episode, but just the running ticker of how he is spending his money is both so depressing and so relatable and so lovable. Yeah. I will push back just a bit that I think this is the best Jimmy Olsen we've ever gotten in a Superman focus story. I got Brooks in Supergirl, it is possible that because in my mind, at least he is the same like definition of handsome that Henry Cavill is and I'll watch him on screen and anything, but I also just love his character so much, but yeah, putting that aside, Asterix totally with you. This is the best Jimmy we've gotten. Well, don't call him Jimmy. Call him James. James. Yeah. That's a James different guy. Okay, that's fair. That's fair. That's fair. I'm really fun. James Olsen is a smoke show, but we can move on. I know I think the actor is wonderful. I think that the character started out strong and then they veered away from like they they centered him in a way that I found very frustrating and I stopped watching the show because in part because of that, I was going to say the it started really good, but then is a definition of pretty much everything about the Arrowverse level on that show, but yeah, actually point for a while, so go ahead. What I think is very important with Jimmy, especially on this show, is his job or his hobby, like whichever you want to call it because traditionally Jimmy Olsen has just been like an errand boy for Perry. He's been a photographer right in a lot of like the 80s, 90s stuff. And now like in this one, he is an intern slash errand boy, but like the important part of his character is that he's a podcaster and that's what gets him the enormous wealth and he becomes like the head of as all podcasters have is free of us. He becomes the head of like the daily planets, audio division or something like that is more a YouTube creator than a podcaster. But that like photographer Jimmy has played out, I feel like, especially because like are there still photographers? Yes, there are, but I feel like a lot of reporters probably take their own pictures because of smartphones too, right? So I feel like this traditional Jimmy Olsen photographer kind of had to go away and this replacement works for me and like this is the way characters and properties like this have to evolve with the times. Like Matthew and I have talked about what do you do with Magneto when the Holocaust is a hundred years ago, at a certain point, like the stories and the characters have to evolve to fit whatever is like more relevant or plausible within your timeline and technology in this case. Yeah, no, absolutely, it's just like how I've always wanted Jimmy to just have known for a long time that Clark was Superman. I've been saying like he should be like at the forefront of whatever the daily planet social media presence is, like he is that guy that parries like I don't understand this, you do it. And he does because Jimmy is a ridiculous human being and always has been but he is also very tapped into metropolis and he's very tapped into what is trendy and what is like vital and vibrant and interesting to people and that's absolutely something. I mean, he's also conspiracy theorist or is he like he was right about aliens and a lot of the stuff that they have in saying are Easter eggs, he's like, oh, there's mermaids. Yeah, there are Clark dated one in college, like he's right, you guys, everything he says is right. Oh, I'm convinced they're going to find the Sasquatch that he wanted to go on that camping trip, but we're his friends, very rudely, I will say ditched him, so yeah, he was right about Task Force X, like he's right. To me, the one thing about that that throws me a bit is because you know, I think they've done a good job updating the show, but also one of the core conceits of the show seems to be because I think it was very true in the 40s and 50s. And for a lot of history, this is what we believed is that the media is fundamentally good and a fundamentally a good institution. Here I'm talking about like media can refer to like any video, audio project. I'm talking here specifically about like the reporter's news. That's a perspective that a lot of people on both sides of the aisle have very, very different views on today. And I appreciate that they're doing a little bit about the cynicism of some of it. Bicky Dale outside of a Batman property just feels entirely wrong to me, but that might be just my own biases. And they have Steve as kind of like the egotistical reporter, and like I like Perry, so I don't want it to be from him. But at some point, maybe in a later season or something like that or in a different show, I would like to see more of the like where it's not just, I don't believe you, so I'm not going to publish your story, but our corporate masters have, you know, what they want the media to say and that and what you lowest or Superman is right or clerical writing doesn't quite fit that, like I don't want everything to reflect the modern day, but it's like the image of them of the newspaper media that this show is presenting is the one part about it that still feels very dated to me is maybe the best part way to say that. Yeah, because who reads a newspaper is what you're saying, but I think like that's why the Jimmy angle is important that they're breaking into new media online. It is audio, right? Like he's not doing, I guess Steve does videos. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like we filming stuff. Yeah, okay. Yeah. I don't think there should ever be a stop the presses moment in this because like it's it's just unclick a button. I mean, I think they should like somebody should like Lois should run in and say stop the presses and carries like what it's been online for 20 minutes. Who cares? We print. Yeah. That's fair. That's fair. Um, so I think a couple of the things we're going to follow up with in our members only section. Uh, I just want to say a quick word about representation and I know, oh, go ahead. Did we want to talk about the news kit Legion? Yeah, yes. Go for it. Go for it. So, um, well, this is, this is actually a good segue because the news kit Legion originally in the comics was the news boy Legion and they've been around since the 40s. They were all white. Um, so they were created by Jack Kirby and Joe Simon and they hung out with a superhero called the Guardian, um, who was a square job superhero with a shield, which may sound familiar because he was a rip off of Captain America, but Jack Kirby and Joe Simon also created Captain America, so I guess it's not really ripping off, it's just kind of being lazy. Um, and so the original news boys, um, were, uh, big words, who's a smart one. We have in the show, uh, Gabby, who loved to talk, scrapper, who loved to fight. That's Patty in the show. Um, and Tommy, whose personality was that his name was Tommy, like the most useless character. Um, and then they had like a bunch of adventures. They're really cute comics, um, like throughout, in the early 40s and then Kirby and Simon went off and fought in World War II and the characters kind of disappeared. And then in the early 70s, Kirby came back to DC, um, after having created basically the entire Marvel universe. And he brought back the news boy Legion, but he was like, well, it's been 30 years. So actually they all grew up and then they each had a son who looks exactly like them and has the same name and the same nickname. Um, and they get into high jinks of Jimmy Olsen, but at that point they added a member because, uh, Kirby came over to DC and he was like, it's looking really white here. Uh, and he created like half a dozen black characters, basically within a year. Um, and so he added the new member, the news boy, Legion's name is Flippa Dippa, FLIPPA, this is a white man trying to add diversity. Okay. Because he's really into scuba diving, which, so you have the smart one, the one who talks a lot, the one who fights a lot and the scuba diver, which like every group needs one. Not like another. Every group needs one. You got to give him credit. It's not a stereotype for anyone anywhere. And like in that genuinely like imagine if you met a 10 year old who was really into scuba diving and like wore scuba suit everywhere, like that would actually be so cute. Um, and so they've been like, they're like kind of minor characters, but they've stuck around, um, in and out of the DC universe, mostly in the Superman books, mostly hanging out with Jimmy, um, in the ensuing 50 years. And when they popped up in the show, like I was so excited to see them and I love that three of them have been gender bent, um, I think, mm hmm, yeah, I think, um, all of them, it seems like I have been raised then like they really use these characters to add more diversity. The show, um, flip is just called flip now, which is an improvement. Um, and they're adorable and it's just like, it's such a nice, it's a use of a really deep cut Easter egg that also vastly improves the Superman world that they've like taken from the comics and that they actually used to tell stories with it. So. Well, exactly. I just try to solve the kind of Superman story you're going to tell, whether it's more of the romantic comedy or it's more of the demi God. I think I just want to create the flip to Snyder, uh, scale, you know, like how much does it say flip Superman and how much does this is act Snyder, Superman, uh, with the with flip and Snyder being the two extremes. Yeah, or like, uh, if you're going to include a Jack Kirby character in a character that Jack Kirby created in 1971 in your Superman project, is it going to be flip a dip book or is it going to be Steppenwolf? And there's a current answer and it's not yeah, that's fair, that's fair. One of the things I wanted to bring up, um, you, you mentioned briefly briefly the Korean character, uh, Lois Lane being Korean and love to hear more about that meant to you. I don't want to say for me, like the next episode in season, season, season two, episode five, they're, it, there's sort of like, who's the most eligible bachelor bachelorette. And one of the characters is just non binary and, um, present like, if you looked at them and didn't know that, I think you might read them as female, but they're definitely someone androgynous, but not entirely, which is nice also because, uh, non binary does not have to mean androgynous, but they're just, you know, just, you know, mentioned with that they pronoun and nothing else is said about it. Uh, and that to me was so meaningful because like I've talked about other non binary characters who have a really important role, uh, cat, um, uh, I forget the character's name, but in Shira being one of my favorites, but also just having this level of representation of, yeah, there's just this one side character who's not even a part of the big thing, but they have, they have them pronouns. So we're going to use they have them pronouns and no one's going to mention it as anything worth mentioning is just fantastic. Yeah, that, that is good at the, the Asian lowest thing. I mean, what more do I need to say, um, but I will say what I will say is that Superman being a literal alien. They often tell these stories, um, and especially when he's in conflict with Lex, Lex Luthor is often very anti-alien, right? And these stories can be read, um, in a American context as being anti-immigrant, anti, you know, other. So to have Lois now be confirmed as Korean is going to play very interestingly in season two, with the way that they're setting up the Superman, Lex Luthor conflict. And I'm very curious to see how they use her character and her voice to address this. And I, and I really hope they do. I hope that it's not just like this token. Yeah, like she's Korean because I feel like she, she does have, she does need to say something important about America, like as a concept and as a, as about a place where people aspire to come to and to be a part of, like, even if they don't look like, you know, everyone around them. So I, I really hope that they handle this carefully and, and do that justice with her character because it's, it's, we're, we're at this time in the real world where we are talking about these issues. And it's, in my opinion, like it has never been addressed like as directly as this show could address it because of the whiteness of Lois, because Superman is white. And so to like have this parallel. And then to have, you know, like Jimmy Olsen being black, which we have seen more of, you mentioned the super girls, the TV show, he was black in that. And so I don't, I don't know when that happened. But it sounds like there's also been Asian, Lois's in appearing in versions in comics. I'm reading about one called American alien, which again, like that just kind of directly draws that line of literal space alien to, you know, alien, you know, as, as we call them in, in terms of immigration. So I, I am like, I'm a little worried, but I'm hopeful and I'm, I'm going to put my faith in this team because of how they have handled this so far. And we'll see how it goes. And, and also like, you know what fans like deal with it, right? Like I know there are always going to be people who get upset with something like this. But why tell the same Clark Kent Lois Lane stories over and over, right? And in the same way. And this is a way that you can have a character that the lowest lane that still has a through line to the lowest lanes of the past. And to tell a new different story, because like, yeah, we, we shouldn't just tell the same stories. Yeah. Now, I, I, I don't agree with all of that. And I think there's so much interesting about the immigration experience there to be talked about. And, and just on the like the, like, you know, fans get over it, I have to say, I think Asian Lois Lane, Korean Lois Lane specifically, followed directly in the next episode by the non-binary character is very intentional of the like, okay, we're going to piss off fans already with this and have some of the idiots out themselves. Let's just, you know, do it twice. Like right in a row, because like, like the fact that neither one of those things had been mentioned at all, like there'd been a couple of other, um, I think one or two side characters had mentioned like that, I don't remember who, but there was some man who talked about his husband. Like Dr. I, not Dr. Ivo, but like someone who worked for him, um, there was definitely a man making reference to his husband in a way that was again very subtle, very like not subtle. There's definitely a kid that Clark Rasky is at one point who has two moms. Yeah. Yeah. That's true too. So yeah. No, that's been great. Um, there was good. I was going to say there was actually, um, there was a graphic novel that came out last year called girl taking over a Lois Lane story, um, by Sarah Kuhn and Ariel Givolanos, um, who are both Asian and Lois is Asian in that story. And I was actually at like, there was a book launch for it here in the city. Um, and they were asked like, did DC push back on this? I'm making Lois Asian and apparently DC said, no, that's fine as long as she has black hair. Like that was their rule. That was what the requirement, which is funny because like that's not even consistent like Amy Adams does not have black hair, but I guess for the comics, that's their only rule. So interesting, you know, sorry haters, but Lois is black hair. So she is DC approved. Who do you think would have non-black hair for? Well, I guess they've already dealt with AB Adams, but we say like, because I also think of the dark hair, the black hair being essential to Superman himself. Yeah, he can't have a blonde Superman. That'd be weird. Yeah. I need to be Herion, which the two Jews creating him were not, we're trying very not to make. So. And also helpful for like future stories, because now we have, um, you know, in a lot of the comics and the TV show, the other TV shows, well, Lois and Clark get married. They have kids and then we get this next generation, like I believe there's one comic right now that is Jonathan Kent that their son is Superman, right? And so like as we get more stories with Asian Lois, in theory, we get stories where Asian Lois, Mary's, Clark Kent, they have a, they have a half Asian, half Kryptonian kid who becomes Superman. So maybe I finally get my wish Sunday. Well, and that being, especially because like most of the stories I know about Superman having a son, it's a clone that's been made for nefarious purposes, who he then adopts to some extent, not necessarily a biological son of, yeah, yeah, well, his, his clone, super boy, uh, Connell or Connor Kent, uh, his other biological parent is Lex Luthor. So right. Exactly. Um, yeah. I don't ship them. I'm sorry. I, I think that, um, I said, take that back. I shipped them in small bill small, small bill. Yeah. They had a moment, but it didn't, it didn't work out. Honestly, I feel like in my adventures at Superman, Lex is clearly way more into Jimmy because he's like, Jimmy, you gave me some great advice. Let's be best friends forever. I, I will also say, we're going to put your topic here. So I'm going to say this, let y'all comment and then I'm going to pull us back to wrap up and then we get to the bonus content of the, like it is also interesting to me how now there's a couple of different aspects of the story that other versions had changed pretty dramatically, but now we've just kind of accepted that that's the change that that we're mostly going with, um, um, to me, one of the most, one of the ones that I'm most against is for me, I want Lex Luthor to be Gene Hackman, not Jesse Eisenberg. Um, I do not like the young feisty kid, Lex Luthor, and maybe this one will be better because I actively despise the one in the Snyder version, um, making it very similar to most of the Snyder versions. Um, but I, when I saw that, I think I had a thought of is this supposed to be Lex, you know, we're doing Jesse Eisenberg again, and I really hoped it wasn't. Um, so, and you're looking at me like, I think Jesse Eisenberg is the wrong name, but like there's two young male actors who, okay, it is Jesse Eisenberg, right? Um, so yeah, I'm just putting that out there that I don't love young Lex, but we'll see where it goes. Um, I mean, I, I agree with you that Jesse Eisenberg's performance is just different. It was different. Just wretched. Um, he made some choices. I don't agree with those choices. I don't want to watch Lex force feed, but was it a jelly bean to a minion or what? It's just a weird performance. It was like a senator or someone. Yeah. I was so weird. Anyway. Joker's a great character. Lex Luthor is a great character. Yeah. He tried to do the Joker. I'm like here. Lex, it's a different guy. Um, but I'm fine with Lex being this roughly the same age as Clark because that has a super long history, like in the comics, I mean, it depends on the universe. Um, it's been rebooted back and forth many times, but there's a long history of them growing up together in Smallville like that's, that's not, that was not invented by Snyder and it wasn't invented by Smallville, this Smallville TV show. Um, so I don't really have a problem with it. My thing about Lex is I prefer him as a corrupt businessman who is a genius scientist, but like that kind of, I don't want him in like a power suit cackling maniacally. I want him to be like chairman of the board. And again, I think he's a very young Lex moving into that role and I always got the impression of him like that him and the Amanda, by the way, Amanda Waller has done so dirty in the show and I'll talk about that in a different time. But to me, he's, you're right, he's the corrupt businessman who gets rich, helping people like Amanda Waller, who are actually afraid of Superman and he, he sells the fear of Superman as a way of making money. He's not actually an anti superman zealot in, in the way that he's portrayed in this, which, um, but we'll get, we need to do a whole episode on that because like I said, like it, I'll just say the brief part of it. No, no, I'm going to hold off on it. Just say I agree with you. Yeah, that'll be part two. So I think just kind of wrapping up to the actual question you started with Reiki, I feel like we're all saying yes, right, that to some extent, like for a good Superman story, we need Lois Lane, maybe if we need Jimmy as well, we need the, the characters who relate to Clark Kent in human ways to make him the character we want to watch. Yeah, and even for movies, like we talked, we talked about the dichotomy and how movies have to have a certain balance of action and that choose into the time that you can have the human element. But I feel like the Richard Donner, Christopher Reeve version of Superman, the movie is well remembered, beloved, and they have a lot of Lois Lane in it. It is an important part of that movie in a way that most of the more modern incarnations just don't do justice, haha. So, yeah, like I, you know, James Gunn, I like his movies and so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt with his Superman movie and we'll just see what, what kind of balance he strikes. I continue to agree with Ricky on everything. That's largely my perspective as well, although not always. So, well, I think it's going to be me against the two of you when we discuss season two. But we will in a bonus section have a few thoughts on two characters who Jessica and myself did not love the inclusion of or representation of that we'll discuss. But for now, Jessica, for those who haven't heard from you in a little while and want to remind themselves, other than a book coming out in May, where can people find yourself right now? Well, right now I'm on the site, formerly known as Twitter, as well as Blue Sky as Jess Plummer. And you can find my writing about Superman and other comics and books and such at bookride.com. Cool, cool. And of course, you can find all the ways to support this podcast on our show notes. Give us feedback. We'd love to hear what you think. We'd love to know what your ideas are. We really want to hear all that. And of course, you become a member. We're trying really hard to update the audio for myself and some of my co-hosts and stuff like that. But the stuff isn't free. And becoming a member is a really great way to help support us, help us improve the quality of the product that we're able to offer you, and also just help us keep the lights on and show your support. So if you can do that, please become a member. You get bonus content like what we'll be discussing in just a moment. But for everybody else, thank you so much. We have spoken. A new law is helping me save more money on prescription drug costs. You may be able to save too. 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