The Game Is About Glory (Spurs Podcast)

Substitute

Steff, Milo, and Ram look back at the what's been happening in the Euros, ponder how hirsute Southgate might or might not be, and enjoy a detailed deep dive into substitutes - how they're perceived, how they're used, and how the role is being redefined in the modern game. Oh, and Milo breaks out a new terrace chant!

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Duration:: 1h 22m
Broadcast on:: 30 Jun 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

[Music] Hello and welcome to The Game is About Glory. I'm your host Steph and joining me are Ram and Milo, Hello Champs. Hello Steph. Hello Steph. I listened to our voices this week Steph. Reprieve. Reprieve indeed, yes, very good. Delighted to have you, Ram. But delighted as we are, let's just charge in. No small talk, just right into the Euros, right in there. Because we just witnessed England playing Slovakia this afternoon. And continuing there, well, there's somewhat confusing stumble through the tournament. I think it's probably what it says. I'll read what you wrote. Get us continued there. Gareth from the up. Gareth from the up. Gotta dictate it. He dictated it to me as I put it down. I see. Well, there we are. This is for you Gareth. England played Slovakia this afternoon, continued there. Triumphant march through the tournament. And now for the rest of us, England plays Slovakia this afternoon and continued their confusing stumble through the tournament, which somehow ends up with us still being in it. Or I should say England still being in it. Champs, what did you think? It was football. It happened. It lasted half an hour longer than the game should have done. It's over. We'd have to think about that again until Saturday. Yeah? I mean, we've been accusing England of being boring for a while, but the final sort of 30 seconds of the main game and then extra time weren't really boring. So, you know, that's a plus side. I guess it's coming back home again now. So, you know, the tide has shifted once again. We were all lambasting Gareth, not our Gareth, Gareth Southgate. Although we did get to be a lambasting, it's just a good try. You want to be quick, that's a good one. He'll take it. He'll accept it. I mean, yeah, it was what it was. But like, obviously, I got excited. You know, when we, the equalizer, I jumped up, it was brilliant. And then when we scored again, obviously Harry scored. And, you know, so the heart starts pumping and things like that. But I don't know, maybe this is, as Milo suggested, you know, in a previous pod, maybe this is the master plan. And we're just going to get better and better as we just missed. I may have entirely buried in your chip. I think it was a master stroke Southgate bringing off by and flop Harry Kane at the end of normal time and bringing on Tottenham legend Harry Kane for added time. That was, that was really smart. So, you know, people have a go at him, but, you know, who had the foresight to do that? Yeah, I think the hope's got to be that this kick starts things. And yeah, I think, you know, we know that, you know, from Spurs experience, how difficult it is, breaking down an organized team. And I think that's what we saw there. And, you know, obviously England aren't on form. They're struggling. They're making heavy weather of it. But, you know, Slovakia got a goal on the break. And then, and then, you know, we're very organized and we struggled to get through them. And, you know, we had plenty of the ball but couldn't do much with it. I mean, we've seen, we've seen that a lot over the last year. And I'm hoping that, yeah, that you get a bit of belief off goals and that kind of kick starts things. But, you know, against the Swiss, the best team we've faced so far and are going to be a real test, I've been really impressed with in this tournament. I mean, I just, you know, there's so much to say. And this is a Spurs pod. I don't drag us down it. Milo and I have already had some deep discussion about this. I mean, I just think this team lacks personality. He's got personalities. He's got to allow them to show their personalities. He's got to stop trying to cut a stake with a butter knife. He's at least, you know, increased his utensil use from a soup spoon. And, you know, we'll get on to, well, it's interesting. We are going to talk about substitutions later. I mean, I thought the Ivertoni substitution was really important. I mean, just that little bit of chaos in the box. Just that extra bit. And suddenly, Drew Bellingham finds the space to, uh, to execute it. I'm hardly, you're hardly against that. You were in four fucking two, didn't you? That's what it was. Four, four fucking two. Get in the box. Stop fucking around. Come on. Build it around a bit. Extra, but seriously, that extra forward in the box. And suddenly, Bellingham has the space to, I mean, and frankly, you know, I suppose this is where he just does prove what he's got. I mean, who tries that in the 95th minute? There was a brilliant execution, but it was, it was. I mean, I think. I think I think, I do think that, um, we were talking about this before we came on step. I think Kane's carrying an injury. I, you know, I'm a Spurs fan. I've seen this film before and, you know, you missed the end of the season at Bayern, because he had a back injury. We all know that if he can, he'll force himself back, you know, he'll force himself. Back early for big games. And he just doesn't look, you know, when he's, when he's injured, he, he, he, he longs a bit, doesn't he? He's not quite as fluid. And, and that's, that's the Harry Kane, I think I'm seeing. I don't disagree. I think that unfortunately the two blue chip players we have, or the Lennon and McCartney of England as the Guardian described them in their post-match report. I'm not quite sure I agree with that, because I don't know who's who. Harry McGuire and, um, and Phillips, is that McGuire or Phillips? Well, there you go. McGuire and Phillips, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But I mean, Bellingham is, I think Bellingham looks extraordinarily tired. And, and I think that that was sheer willpower that got him to where he needed to be, to then have the, the courage to execute that in the 95th minute. And I think Kane is definitely doing the same. He's playing a leader's role and, you know, yes, he's definitely looks a little off, especially when he's running, but, you know, he's finding spaces. He played two brilliant balls today. I mean, two great passes when he got the movement, when he got the space to drop in. But anyway, he was there at the moment. And yeah, photos off side goals. The pass for that was fantastic, wasn't it? Amazing. Brilliant. And he's just found that pocket of space. So I just, you know, Cole Palmer, I thought did really, really well when he came on. But yeah, I've got to give special mention, actually, to the players, to Saka and to Eze, who I think both did fairly unorthodox things on the pitch today, by a measure of what they usually do for their clubs. And, and you have to give them a lot of credit for, for really applying themselves, as well as they did, given the pressure. So, you know, now we understand the interest in their say. It's as Udoki's understudy, isn't it? That's, that's what we've been thinking all along. And we don't have any worries about who we've been hurting. So, you know, well, it's, it's very interesting. This is all this pod is going to end up being holistic. It is anyway, anyway, let's, let's talk about other games we've enjoyed this week, because I feel that we could probably enjoy another 10 minutes of ripping apart Gareth Southgate England and the fact that he finally undid his zipper a tiny bit on his polo shirt today. And I think that was a key moment in the game when he finally undid it a tiny bit, a tiny bit. Does he have a hairy chest, do you think? Gareth Southgate? Gareth Southgate? I shared, I shared a photo over earlier today. Excellent. I, I asked, I asked him a real question. And, and my, my, I have an answer. I'm swimming trunks. I'm swimming trunks. It's got an answer. So, you've got a pigeon chest. I'll tell you that much. Okay, I just want to just got some hairs on his chest. Yeah, a little bit. Can you, can you see that? It's a safe amount of chest hair, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. It's not wild, it's not wild and expressive. It's not waxed for four, for four, like clean chest. He saw a little bit, it's just enough to have some, right? I mean, that was quite a long time ago. That, that's when he was, he was playing. He looks like he was in the in-betweeners or something in the photos. Quite, quite young. I wish he'd do his interviews like he was in the in-between. He might go, I've got more hair suit as he's got older as, you know, as happens. Oh, bless him, bless him. I suppose, you know, being the pod that we are, we, we shouldn't be too cruel. And we should point out that for all the criticism that we, or especially me, I suppose, have given Southgate, Southgate, gave Southgate this tournament. He has, you know, a pretty impeccable record with England thus far. He does and also one thing I noted at the end of the game, when he was going round to the players and, you know, kind of congratulating them and stuff like that, they all are very much, they back him, they're behind him, you know, and like, that's from what I could see, you know, just with my own eyes. It was like, that they were very together, too, and they have been under him. I think it's just, obviously, we're just a bit, we just, we just, we as fans want to, want, not need, want to see a bit more expansive and expressing this, you know. Yeah, I want, I want to be a better human being at this point than the more I'm sinking into, because I am criticizing him heavily, and it doesn't bear much thinking, actually. And I think the issue of this tournament, though, is the first time under Southgate that we've gone into a tournament with high expectations, and I think, in the past, he's benefited from, you know, rock, boss of expectations, and then we've done a bit better than that. And if you think of all of our kind of group stages under him, or, you know, all of them actually have been a pretty, you're pretty much, you know, a grind all the way through, but then, you know, people, people react to results. And I think this time, because, because of Benningham and Kane, and, you know, Sakura, and all these players who, you know, we've got the best player in Germany, we've got the best player in, or one of the best players in the league, or we've got, you know, a handful of players who amongst the best in the Premier League. And I think people are saying, well, that's not the sum of its parts. And it's probably the, but it's the first time we've gone in with this kind of hope and expectation, I think, under Southgate. Yeah, that is an excellent point. And never let me say that this pod doesn't find its way to balance in the end. No, it does. And, but not, but not just for the sake of it. It's well, it's well debated, because you're absolutely right. We're going in, you know, we were the favourites going into this tournament. Excuse me, we haven't won a tournament of any nature since I was born. I was born in 1967. So that's a long, bloody time. So to your point, Milo, it's that's a very fair, very fair point indeed. It is very bad. And if I can just bring it back to bit of childishness, did anyone see? Enough of that nonsense. Excellent. Oh, I'd love to see you. Come on. Did anyone see Paul Skoll's stuff he was commenting on Instagram? Oh, yeah. And there was that thing about Saka, he was like, because, you know, a lot of the exceptional pros were saying, well, maybe we should play him at left back and everything like that. And he just, he put it out there, he was just like, oh, you know, all of these exceptional pros are so scared of Palmer replacing Saka, they're now trying to shoehorn him into left back and stuff like, and he was just like calling it out. Someone, someone's had the nail. But Paul Skoll's, let's hope that you saw what because Saka actually managed to do for us when he was asked to do it. Exactly. Against his will, actually, he did express in an interview he did with five live earlier in the week that it wouldn't be his favourite thing to do, but, you know, he could do it. And again, he did it. So anyway, other games you've enjoyed in the Euros this week, chaps. Well, the Spain Georgia one at the time, it was a bit of a crack, wasn't it? I mean, the way Spain started, they're going all out, I was thinking, well, hang on, guys, you're going to be absolutely naked when it comes to the 95th minute and you need to just get a goal in order to kind of get to extra time. You can't start games like that, can you? That was really good. I've really enjoyed watching Austria. So the Austrian Netherlands game earlier in the week was really good. I thought, say, we're talking about Switzerland, weren't we earlier on? I think they've been really good, or enjoyed their game last night. Such a comprehensive dismantling of Italy. That was a talk about, talk about, we complained about England, and, you know, everyone does, I suppose, that's what I did. The Swiss, the Swiss, I've had to play both of the finalists from the last tournament, sorry, from the, yeah, back to back. So, yeah, I don't love seeing Georgia get two mentions. I love seeing them beat Portugal as well. So that was the one I can say as well. So, yeah. It was excellent, wasn't it? That was good. And Ronaldo, actually, probably being very lucky to avoid a red card in that game, I would say, to be honest. But yes, that was one for sure. I guess, Germany, Denmark, I guess they were fairly spirited at the start. And then, but I think Germany just kind of just had too much for them really, didn't they, in the end? But, yeah, no, I'd say you're very cheeky. I know what you're doing. But I know exactly what you're doing. I can see it. You just, you just thrown it in there. And you know, there's three letters that could kick it off right here. And you're just not going there. You just know it. I can see it in your eyes. Good Lord. Anyway. I don't know what you're talking about. Oh, I'm sure you don't carry on. Go on with your breakdown of Germany, Denmark, Kerry. No, no, that's it. That was it. Okay. All right. Let's leave it there, shall we? No, carry on. Okay. Let's deep breath. I'm still in the sandbox or mature podcast, your host, host, maturely. Okay. Yes. Okay. We've had two Spurs players leave the tournament this weekend. Vicari and Ampere, in the Hoibier. Is this good for us? I think it's a bit of a double edged sword in a way because, like, obviously, we get players back who have less chance of getting injured. And in Vicari's case, you know, a longer rest. And then in Hoibier's case, there's a chance to concentrate on finding a new club by the looks of it. But then there is the argument to make about the experience and confidence of getting to the business end of a major international tournament. And specifically with Hoibier, again, a longer shop window as well. And so I think there's a lot of variables to consider when it comes down to. I think I probably err on the side of it. Like, I really loved it when Maurice came back as a World Cup winner. You know, and we could say that our number one was a World Cup winner. And all, you know, players that come back as like, said, we find this, find this and stuff. But then my Spurs tinted glasses come on. And I'm like, I just want them all out in group stage. So we've got the perfect preseason, you know, it's sort of injury-free preseason to get into. Actually, a little factor throw in there before you come in. I just want to remind you, Ram, that Hugo Laresis is not the last player to have come back from a major tournament as a winner. They're alone a World Cup winner, not last player to return to Tottenham Hotspur as one. Christian Mirro, take a bow. But anyway, your point stands. Yeah, we've only got two players left in it, and they're due to play each other on Tuesday night. So either trigger-shan or fan event will be coming home after that game. So we'll only have one player left at the tournament. Should we just do the same each one we'd rather? Yeah. But what was occurring to me about this? Come on, son, get back home. What was occurring to me about this was that at the last World Cup, where we had the most players deep in the tournament. So it's kind of a real turnaround over kind of a year and a half later. I mean, from Ferrari's point of view, he wasn't playing. So it doesn't, you know, he's not going to get that experience from going deeper into the tournament. And what it does mean, our players come back for preseason on Saturday, on the 6th. So when England next play, and they get two weeks off after a tournament. So it means that Vicks, and you're going to, Vicks can hope you're only going to miss a week of preseason. So from that point of view, that's pretty good. And yeah, give them the choice. I'll have Mickey back early and Romania can march on. Absolutely. I think we're all in agreement with that. But we have to say that Pierre did a very good job. And we joked about it last week, Milo and I, but it was only half joking. I mean, he's done a very good job of pushing his value up. And, you know, good for him. And, and, and may he find the club that suits him fast for all parties, I think, is the safe thing to say there. Okay. Well, should I take it up? Yes, you should do. Otherwise, we could sit in the chat zone for a long time. Chat zone. And so the week that was so new coaches. So following Chris Davis is leaving to become head coach at Birmingham City. We've got confirmation this week that Matt Wells have been promoted to Andrews number two to replace him. And we also learned that Nick Montgomery and Sergio Ray Mundo. I love Ray Mundo. It's just perfect, isn't it? I'm never going to tire of that. Because I don't see him one flourish. That's why you love it. We're also joining the coaching team. Nick Montgomery was the manager at Hibbs last season before leaving the club in May and Sergio Ray Mundo. Let's see how it squeezed it in again. Which is an assistant there. Before that, they were both at central coast mariners in the eight league where they won the league in 2023. It's good to get all this done before pre-season, isn't it? Yeah, it's the same deal as the squad, isn't it? Like you weren't business done as early as possible. And that means staff as well. Get them settled in, getting them hit the ground running for the new season. And do you know anything about them? Nothing. Done a little bit of research, if you're interested. Go on. Hang on a moment. Go on in. Go on. I don't know anything you get. So we just don't want assumptions to sit too heavily here, come on. To be fair, I don't know anything. I spoke for the both of us then. I know you did. You bring out the child in me. That's what you do. Sorry. I'll start with Nick Montgomery. And then he came through as a player at Sheffield United under Neil Warnock in terms of coaching. South coast mariners, sorry, central coast mariners even say they've won the league. They've got one of the smallest budgets in the league and so you can come through and win that is really impressive. Hibbs, I mean, a lot of this is going to sound quite similar to you. So you can kind of understand why and you might have picked him out. So he was looking to play out through the back, through the lines. It's a possession-based system. He was changing the system the way they played from the previous manager. He's keen that they train with intensity. So he wants to train as they play. He came up against a lot of low block encounter teams in the Scottish Premiership last season and he had to adjust to try and break down the low block. But also you've got that vulnerability on the counter, which was a bit of an issue. Another one that might sound a bit familiar is some of the Hibbs fans got a bit restless with possession football against the low block and passing it around in order to break them down. So again, similar stuff that we've got there. Hibbs is a clubber of a mess. They've gone through a lot of managers recently. The squad he inherited wasn't the best fit for it and then they didn't have money available for him in January and they just churned through managers. So the issues he's had there basically haven't stuck with him. They haven't given him what he's needed. But I think generally they were playing very, very good football and people are impressed with them. You can certainly, from what I've kind of rattled through there, you can see the fit for us and how and plays. And then Sergio Ramundo, I watched an interview with him earlier in the week. So he speaks six languages. He's, say, Portuguese. He met at Montgomery when they were both doing their badges in Northern Ireland. And really, two really weird facts, Steph, which I'm sure will drag up a few times during the season. So he used to play in rock bands. And when he left school, he couldn't go into university. So he joined the Portuguese Navy Special Forces and did three years in the in the Navy before then going into university and then starting as a coach after that. Amazing. You just painted a picture of a nutter here. I mean, I mean, I'm sort of as a positive in a way, but he's obviously a little bit sort of driven, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I think he was talking about kind of the military stuff in terms of like how he passes that knowledge on to players and he's saying that when the training and stuff, when you're feeling pain, you know, when you go through that, you realize that that's, you know, you've got an extra X percentage to give after that. And you don't give up at that point and all that kind of stuff. So he was, he was, he was applying that knowledge to, you know, to his coaching and stuff. So yeah, he sounds like a really interesting guy, I would say, speaking six languages is pretty impressive as well. So yeah, yeah, they seem like, they seem like an interesting pair. Sergio Romando, discography. You look like I'm disc golfing. The movie invaders was in with the movie. I don't know. I don't know. Is there another, is it just some other Sergio Romando? I'm coming up with, what's his, what's his hair saying? Well, I see him under LinkedIn. This is very intriguing to me because I'd like to know what sort of guitar player he was. Well, do you want to do this when we finished the pod rather than? What you mean, you mean plow through my phone and holding us up while I'm trying to find out using this fact and they're actually going to help any of us at all. We could, we'll be a suggestion. Go and you and Ram and I can continue the pods and you come back when you're finished. But you've, you tickle my interest with all this. As you move, you do tend to tickle my interest with a lot of things, which is probably not something you want to hear. But I did look him up, Sergio Romando on LinkedIn. If you look up his LinkedIn profile, there's all sorts of crazy stuff and honours and awards, a project of the year at University of Human Kinetics of Lisbon in 2014. Crikey. I mean, it's an impressive, this guy looks like a bit, I mean, dare we use the word savant? He looks like he's a little bit one of those guys. Like a little bit, just a really interesting background. I like people, you know, we spoke about this a lot last season with Ernst, didn't we, and how his different career path gave him a different outlook on it. And this sounds like another person who's taken a very unusual path to where they are. And that gives them a different perspective. So I think it's, I think the pair of them seem quite interesting. I'm, you know, with Nick Montgomery, you know, he was a head coach, he was managing a team, he's taken a step down, although admittedly into a better league. But it must have been quite difficult for him to make that decision. He was head coach in Australia as well. So, you know, he's been doing that for a while and he's taken a choice to step down, but again, it means we've got, you know, the experience in that team. Obviously, Ryan Mason has been a, you know, head coach albeit as a, you know, as a caretaker. We've got actually quite a lot of experience in that coaching set up now. So, yeah, an interesting one. What next, Ryan, I wonder if Inghvee Malmstein will be hired as a touring consultant when we get to the Europa League to help the players through their travel arrangements as they go from country to country. Who knows? He never knows. Anyway, so our second kit was launched last week. So, Pale Blue, Stripey, much leaked. It's a bit reminiscent of the LeCoc, Sportif, second kit from the 80s. What do you think? Do you like it? First of all, it was, it was leaked more than the roofs at the Euros a couple of nights ago. I know, oh, Trevor, it wasn't, it's been everywhere. But I love the first dummy we saw of it. The second, the actual real ones have been a little less punchy. But yes, I've already scouted when the nipple friendly version's ready. I'm kind of all in sadly. I do like it. Yes, I do. I don't know if I like it enough to buy it, but it is one of those concept tops like the, you know, the color explosion kit, fair kit a few years ago that Steph and I both purchased. That probably won't be seen again in a similar form for a while. So, unless I lose a bit. But yeah, like, you know, it's, it's interesting. It's nice to have something a bit, bit like, you know, against the grain. I think I'd be quite like it when we do that. Can I be a little vain here for a minute? If I'm speaking amongst friends as I am, you know, out here, you know, it's going to be summer and get that good, good sunshine, get a good tan going. That blue off a good tan. It's flattering to think. I think it's going to, I think it's going to work a little bit of gray in the beard. I'm going to go for it. I'm going, I'm going for it. I am. What name, what name are you getting? On the back? Yeah. What name do you think? Oh, Vanderven. No, I'm getting my name on the back with the number 10. I did that with the hopes that last season. Are you joking? Once a week, I still heat my fat ass around the, around the field and pretend. I do. No, no. As embarrassing as that is, I shouldn't probably admit that in public anyway. What do you think of it, mate? I think it will look better on the pitch, probably. It's not. I don't quite like the variation in the stripes. I'm not too fond of. When it was first being leaked, so I saw someone saying that, you know, there's pool towels they used to have that like in the metal container, you pull it. Yeah, it's like likening the kind of the stripes to those. So I think it's all right. I don't like the Nike logo to the side. I think with the crest and the sponsor in the middle, I mean, basically, I think it would look better if the stripes were consistent. It didn't have the sponsor on it. It didn't have a Nike logo on it. And it was just the crest in the middle of the shirt. I agree. Well, to your point, it's too comfortable to put their logos on. The comfortable teeth is to put their logos on the sleeves. Yeah. So so you're absolutely right. When they had this, when the crest was central, the the bad is on either sleeve. So yeah. Yeah, but I think it I think it would look fine on the pitch. And it's better than some of the ones we've had over the last few seasons. It's no tour pace, is it? So do you do you think the the leaks make these releases a bit of an anti-climax or does it raise your excitement? For me, I think all kit launches now are a little bit anti-climatic nowadays just because of the frequency of them. You know, before it was like, it wouldn't be like every season, you know, that we'd have in the UK and everything. But it always gets talked about. So, you know, we do kind of talk about it and the images go around. But for me, I'm not as excited maybe as I used to be. Do you remember that David Bowie album from from his his penultimate record, not Black Star? I remember the title, but he basically ended up being the cover of Lo with a square of sorry, of the cover of Heroes of the Square. The next day. And the fact that he dropped that album to use modern phrasing, he released that out of nowhere. Yeah. Why do we have to say, I don't want to fucking I don't want some more on launching that I don't like it. I don't want it to. I don't want to see it. I want to sit and debate what it should be and see the concept sketches left and right and center. And when it comes out, it should be here it is. I'm able to buy it. But unfortunately, that's me in my little utopia because the world doesn't work like that. And everyone has to know everything all the time and be the person to break it. So, yeah, it might it's wholly anti-climatic, especially when you go to spend 100 fucking quid on the little friendly one. And it's not in yet because they've had to release it early, doubt this because of all the leaks. Right? I mean, humph. It's a relief. I thought you were talking about his last album. You were suggesting everyone had to die a week after it was released or something. That's a bit harsh. Certainly, no, no, no. Certainly not. Let's move on. So, George Feeney, we've only gone aside to striker. Okay, he's only 16 and we're unlikely to see him in the first two for a while. But what are you complaining about? He's George Feeney. He's joined us from Northern Irish side, Glen Toren. He became Glen Toren's youngest ever gold scorer last October at the age of 15. Evidently, we beat Brighton, Brent, for West Ham, Crystal Palace, and not Forest to his signature. And George is the son of former Bournemouth, Luton, and Northern Ireland striker Warren Feeney, who also managed him at Glen Toren. George is expected to go into around 18th side, where he would be coached amongst others by Jermaine Defoe, who played with his dad briefly when they were both at Bournemouth. That was when Defoe was on loan there from West Ham at the very beginning of his career. George's signature is expected to be formally announced, along with the New York Academy in taking a few weeks' time. You know what, Ram, what a shame that we haven't already thought of a song for this. I don't know. I haven't had one of those. Is it? Yeah. Did you think of a song? It was not me. So, if I didn't, and you didn't, who on this pod has a song to sing for us? We haven't done any new songs for ages, have we? No. I think in my fingers, I think in my toes. Oh, there it is all around me. And that's the feeling goals. Oh, that's a... Oh, people didn't. I think in my fingers. Good. I love it. I love it. It feels like the season's already begun. Yeah, it feels a little bit weird that Milo's singing this, they're not rolling his eyes, or being completely expressionless when one of us is singing this song. Oh, OK. It's a super nice one. You've got to listen to me, Ram. So, you can do it. Ram, we all have to play... I mean, we all have to play a role at some point, you know, to sport a game. Our versatility is alive for everyone to see. I love it, love it. Anyway, before we get to Transfer Room, there's Steph. Would you like to talk about Tottenham Hotspur? Yeah, I love the idea. I really do. Because, of course, I started this many years ago. It's on you. What's that? You're both talking. It's on you. So, yeah, we are. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I love the idea Tottenham Tilly has made... She made it debut a good 12 years ago now, I think, 10 years ago, maybe. I will admit, on the plus, it was great to see Donna Marie Cullen talk about how much she loves dogs. That's great. I just wish she hadn't... There was some community guff line about it at the beginning. I'm like, "Don't try and dogwash the way we are as a football cop. You don't need to do that." Just rest on the fact it's a fun idea and it's really cool. So, take a bit of that. I think you might be taking it a little too seriously, Steph. You probably am. It's a really good idea. And you know what? Look, if Donna Cullen is a dog lover and she's behind this, good for her. Are you going to sign your pictures up? Just briefly. I'll big time. I'm sending mine in. Are you familiar with this? How are you, Ram? I am, but I think we're just very briefly. We should let the listeners know who aren't familiar with it. It's gourmet. A members club for Spurs fans and their dogs, which is free to enter and you get the opportunities to have your dog featured in the programme or I think shown on the screens in the ground. Yes, yes. I think it's... Absolutely right. But mainly, it gives us a chance to do lots of dog name puns, doesn't it? That's the best thing about it. It gave you a chance to throw at least three out within two minutes of the story-breaking if you care to share them with us all here. Well, Spaniel Levy, I think was my first one. Didn't you have a... Pedro Porro. Pedro Porro. I didn't share with you David Grouse. David Grouse? David Grouse. Very good. I like that. Very good. I'm just expecting to see Tilly in various different disguises throughout the course of the season. Exactly. That's why I need to be a different dog each week. What's the dog equivalent of a forced moustache? I know. It is actually going to be an ambition to get her picture on the screen, in the programme and on the screen. Yes, if I get flagged for spamming the club website, you'll know exactly what's going on. It's a fun idea. It really is. It's a good thing. I've got to be honest. I don't really understand it. I don't understand it. I mean, it's a little... It is a little life fun. I mean, you don't have a dog you wouldn't, anyway. Enough of this. So, Sis doesn't turn into a poor effort of a pod like me. It's life fun. Let's go into the serious business of transfers and transfer gossip. So good. The transfer that's going to use on Sunday was that Archie Gray's move to Brentford had fallen through over the structure of the fee and we're now in pole position to present them. So, David Ornstein and others are all saying that we're in negotiations and that a deal is expected to be done. The fee is rumoured to be £35 million, with potential add-ons taking it to £40 million. That would just sink crazy a little while ago, but when you look at what Chelsea Leicester, not Forrest Everton and Newcastle are doing amongst themselves with kids who barely played the first team, first team minute, it seems quite reasonable. And I'm left-filler out of that as well. There are some reports saying that Joe Roden or Oliver Scarp or both of them could head in the opposite direction in separate deals. Excited? Yes. I mean, as this pod raised, we first raised his name a few weeks ago, if I remember correctly, and as a player that showed really good potential, again, what I do love about our targets these days is that they can play a couple of different positions, which is great, like that great deal. And yeah, I mean, let's be honest, he's getting an awful lot of attention and expert opinion from people who know their stuff. Even Gareth Southgate said that he's going to have a great career. I probably shouldn't have mentioned that. I'm sorry, but no seriously, he's highly rated and yeah, it does seem exciting and he did play very well. I saw him a few times actually towards the end of the season with Leeds. And he looks like one of those players who can definitely step in and step up immediately for sure. Yeah, I think it's good that we're getting like linked with players to that, or in this case, even more than that. That feed is kind of, I'm still trying to get my head around that sort of fee for someone of that age and profile. So I think maybe I just, I have to now realign myself for that, as we have done in the past. But yeah, yeah, no, like you said, Steph, just it's exciting. I mean, this means that all of the skips, 80 million pound player, doesn't it? Yeah, I mean, I think the good thing about this, as you said, Steph, is he covers two positions where we need cover in the squad. So that's pretty useful. I mean, he looks like he's got a decent technique. I think the main, you know, the standout thing for him is that he's physically able to compete in those positions in the championship at the age of 18, which is pretty remarkable. But yeah, I think it's useful for the squad. It has come up on the pod previously as well. I mean, it should be no secret that his football lineage is pretty good. I mean, between his, Eddie Gray was a hell of a player and Frankie Gray was a hell of a player as well. And so it's not like he hasn't been surrounded by top talent in this family. So he's not George Feeney, is he? But I mean, in terms of, yes, he doesn't quite give you the song latitude that George Feeney does. But I feel I'm confident that by December, you will have a song for Archie Gray. And as a matter of fact, Ram, we should keep a tab on this. Glad to be great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. To be great. I love that. Like I said, if you're glad to be great, I'd love that. Brilliant. And it works both ways for you, Stephanie. Very good. Great. I love it. Love it. Love it. All right. The Moles reported that we've had a £20 million plus Giovanni LaCelso offer for Jacob Ramsey turned down by Aston Villa. Dan Kilpatrick in the standard says that we might go back with a bigger offer. And Ali Gold has up that and said that he's heard that a deal could be done for around £14 million. I'd like to see it. I'd like to see it. I do like that. I like the approach and attitude we're taking to rebuilding a really important area of our squad, especially when you consider who we're getting rid of versus coming in there. Anytime I've seen Jacob Ramsey, he's really impressed me. Yeah. I'd love to see this happen. And the thoughts, Ram? No, I kind of echo that as well. It's interesting that we seem to be trying to knock Nick where we're offering for a few Villa players now. They're in trouble with PSR, aren't they? Yeah. So this is taking advantage of the clubs. They're struggling. He's another one who can play a couple of positions though. I mean, I think most likely he's going to be covering Madison. And then he can also play on the left wing as well. So this to me looks like an alternative to SA. And it's the same positions. He's a couple of years younger, a bit rawer. But yeah, those kind of positions. And is he 23? I think he's 23. But if you look at Gray, if you think in central midfield there, you've got Gray and Burgvall and Saar are all very young. And that's the next midfield coming through. You put Jacob Ramsey in there as well. And then you've got Mikey Moore and Don Lee as well coming through. And you start thinking, well, actually, that's a really good crop of very young midfielders that you've got there who could come through together. It's very exciting. I mean, this is Dream PLT, isn't it, really? I mean, when you talk about Leeds and Villa, they're both being squeezed financially. It's prime leavey territory. I mean, he loves to operate in these zones. And I think, obviously, given the structure that was broken down so well last week, predominantly by Milo, I must say, as long as those visions are all aligned, we should expect this to happen and be happy about it. I'd love as we've discussed, it's wholly impractical to expect it. I mean, it just doesn't work. Again, if you look at what happened last summer, primary target doesn't come off, make that decision early, move on, go to the next one. And if that's what we're doing here, I mean, obviously, this is guesswork on our behalf. If that's what we're doing here, that's the right approach, rather than pining for a player all summer, and then up your bid, and up your bid, and up your bid, and not actually get on with your business. So, yeah, I think that's- Has the great Baza 41 said, if you want a better view, get moved to a hotel room that's closer to the sea lion or talkie, or preferably in it, something like that. I'm not sure. I'm not quite sure how that fits, which I can imagine. Well, it's pining for the fields. You talk about pining, and he does say pining for the fields at one point, but different episode. Pining for the fields is the parrot sketch, and that's modified. Yes, it is, it's the different. Not 40 towers. I'm choosing my... There we go. George John Cleese, and I've gone completely off piece. Yeah, okay. Let's move on. The Sun and the Southern Baby Echo have reported that we're interested in a swap deal, plus 20 million quid, for us to sign Argentinian midfielder Charlie Alcaraz from Southampton, with Joe Roden going the opposite direction. Alcaraz spent the second hover last season on loan at Juventus, making 12 appearances. Any thoughts? I have no... I can honestly tell you, I've never seen Charlie Alcaraz play, so I don't want to say. I don't have anything to say on that in particular, but I noticed that the last few transfers were talking about swap deals or add-ons, add players added on, which normally you always get one or two of those in a window, but it seems like we're really trying to push for that. Well, we've got quite a lot that we need to clear out, I think. I think it's a bit of interest. I mean, in Joe Roden, I think all three promoted clubs are meant to be interested in him, so it makes sense if they've got players that we can... that we're interested in as well. He's an eight, so he would be competing with Saal, and yeah, for that position there. Ali Gold and others have said that we're interested in Leo Forward, Jonathan David, who's currently playing in Copa America with Canada. David is lightning quick and a player across the front line. Tick, he's also being linked with Chelsea and Man United. Boo! Again, we're back to sort of knitting together the pod from last week with with, you know, what we're getting into with the way we're building our squad. Given the way that we look to be operating and look to want to operate, this seems to be the perfect sort profile fit for what we need and the sort of player we need as well in terms of being able to play maybe a couple of different places. Yeah, you can play as a ten as well, so you could potentially play him and Richie together. You know, his goal scoring in France has got better every season, pretty much. I think the last test isn't the same, but he's scoring kind of one in two in Lugen, and yeah, he's pretty clever in the box as well. So yeah, I mean, he's not, you know, top top level, but if you're looking for, you know, squad building and someone who can compete, you know, he can do all that. So yeah, so another only goal, one here, he said that we're interested in 19-year-old Ren midfielder, Desiré Douay, you ever seen him? I can help you out with him. I don't know anything to dare is to do, although I would say it's probably what we should be considering it. Primarily plays on the left wing, can play in midfield as well, can play on the right as well, very tricky, very dribbly. He's pretty much exactly what I've been banging on about for kind of the last year or so. So yeah, I think it'd be really useful going through, Ren. I think we should play him on the left, because then on that left, we'll have Destiny and Desiré. Sorry, very good. Destiny and Desiré. No, that's very good. I've got to give you your duet on that pun. It's very good indeed, very good. Yeah, nice one. He's good, but he's only really played, kind of half a season as the starter for Ren. So it might be a bit young, but yeah, he's good. Bill would say that Bresher Dortmund are interested in Pierre-Mér-Mér-Hoybier. I hope it happens for him. Again, we've banged on about this week after week, but I've so much respect for him. He has shown up every time he's been asked, and he's done his absolute best for us. So I wish him nothing but the best, and I hope he gets a move where he can really shine. And I think it'd be a great move for him. Yeah, played in Germany before, isn't it as well? So yeah, and BBC have reported that Oxford United are interested in taking Jamie Donnelly on loan for the season, and Ali Gold said that Chris Davis may be interested in taking him on loan to Birmingham. It'd be good. I think he needs to play. Again, my fan side says, can he get games with us next season? My practical side says probably not. So yeah, he needs to play. I haven't seen a lot of Oxford United's. They've got promoted to a championship. I understand that their playing style is complementary to how we play. So it might be a decent fit there. And obviously, Chris Davis has coached with him. So if he's interested in taking him to Birmingham, that works. So Birmingham got relegated to League 1. But in League 1, Birmingham, he'd be playing for a big gates, and they'd be challenging at the top. You'd assume that Oxford might have a tougher time with it in the championship. So that's probably the toss-up between the two, isn't it, really? Yeah. Right. Unbelievable. We're almost having too much fun for me to recognise that we are only half way through the pod. It's going to be serious now. We're going to get cracking with, oh, well, as serious as we can get. But we're going to get cracking now with the features department or section of the pod this week, which revolves around the whole question or concept in the modern game of substitutions, which I think we'd all agree. That word, the connotations of it, have changed substantially, especially in the last decade, even more so I would say in the last few years, especially since we now are allowed five substitutes in the Premier League and so on and so forth. Things really started to take on a whole other focus. So let's just start with the gender warm-up question, which is traditionally for each of you, who was your favourite childhood sub or supersub? And how did you perceive the role initially as a fledgling football fan growing up just loving the game like a punter, not the experts we've now become? Sorry, sorry. I might kick myself as we discussed this further, but like when I think about childhood, I really, first, I can't think of a spare supersub that really sticks in my mind as a kid. And also, when I think of supersubs, it's going more into my teenage years. And I kind of tenuously, as a Spurs link, go for sharing them in my teams for United and England. I think for United, obviously, most famously in the FA Cup, in the final, in the Champions League final. And then also, what a lot of people forget is his goal straight off the covenant against Greece, that old Trafford, when we were trying to, you know, qualify. And that was overshadowed, you know, rightfully, I guess, by the Beckham Show. But yeah, you know, I think people forget that he came on in his first touch, he scored a goal. And he did that fairly consistently, more so for United, I'd say, then for us, because he was a start of, you know, automatic start for us. So he's the one that really sticks in my mind. And obviously, Shell Sky as well was known, I guess, the moniker supersub was essentially named after him. But yeah, those two would be the ones I would say. And then like, traditionally, I think the subs role for me, when they first arrived, were really more injury replacements, because they were, you know, teams didn't used to sub. And I guess that then developed into bringing on fresh legs, and then that then developed into a change to impact the course of the game. So yeah, it kind of, that's for me, with that kind of trajectory where it's developed. I struggled with the first part of this question, because I said, like, Ram, I couldn't really think of any spur supersubs that this is where we should have Gareth on it, because he would have rattled off half a dozen and without even thinking about it. And I mean, I know that kind of Ronnie Rosenthal, when he joined us, came with the reputation of being great from the bench. But for us, I don't think he was never that prolific, was he? What, who did you think of stuff? You put this question in, who did you have in mind when you're thinking about it? It's interesting. It was a toss up for me in talking about late '70s, very early '80s. I mean, Mickey Hazard is a player he was often on the subs bench, but was maybe not a super sub. But the guy that would come off the bench, traditionally, is number 12, and hit a 20, 25-yard rocket to win us a game or grab us a point, was Gary Brook, who used to come in. And honestly, what was fascinating about Gary Brook was, I don't think anybody, this is with great respect. I actually hate saying that, because it means I'm now going to sound like I'm disrespecting him. But you never saw that he was going to actually be a first team 90-minute player, but you trusted him off the bench to have an impact. We'll play into our discussion later, actually, it's quite interesting. So he was the one. But the first super sub that I remember in British football was a guy in the '70s for Liverpool, David Fairclough, who actually never formally became a first-team striker, but I don't know what his stats are. He had a hell of a lot of goals off the bench. And being a sub back then, you were the only guy. So that's quite an achievement. So Fairclough was the first super sub I ever remember. Well, to say, in terms of the role, firstly, I would have said that it's not good enough to start generally. And if you're going back to my childhood, most clubs had an 11, and then plus some others. And you're talking about the time when you had reserved-team football, didn't you? Rather than under 21s, you had a reserved-team football, which was the ones who weren't getting a game for the first team, plus some others with some of you kids in that. But generally speaking, they were the ones who are either coming back from entry or just weren't good enough, because you didn't have a squad game to the extent that you do now. And then as you're saying, around, I think over time, that's changed. Certainly as the money's come into the game and the size of the benches has changed and all that kind of stuff, and how many players you can have there, and then more recently, how many subs you can make that's dramatically changed. I think also that we talk about the physical tax that is on players in modern football, that's had a huge effect on this, I think. And this goes back to our discussion a little while ago about how long careers are going to last for these days. And the fact they might actually be lasting less and less, because more and more is asked to players. So that workload has to be shared more and more evenly. And I think historically, I don't think that managers have thought much about substitutions. If you're chasing a game, they'll chuck on more attackers. If you're ahead, you put on more defensively minded players, and you make your first substitution around the 70-minute mark, and that's it. I think that's as much thought has gone into it. Well, it's an interesting segue into the next question to ask, which is looking at Edge, and let's just look at what he's done with us this past season. How does it feel to you that he approaches substitutes and substitutions, and how do you think he actually plots them? What's been your observance? I think he is very prone to making subs on the 70-minute mark, but god, this is what's happening. We have seen him make earlier subs a few times when things have been going badly. The other constant is that he changes out pretty much all of the midfield and the front line. I think those are the typical. You don't see a lot of defensive subs from him, but you pretty much guarantee that the three that started in the field are only going to play 60-70 minutes, and they'll be off, and then similar with the front line. Yeah, I think I definitely get that impression as well, and I think he'll kill stick with the back five as much as possible, and he really only changes it around if there's a problem. But I think he's been decent enough. I think especially considering the amount of games we didn't have options through injury and suspension, a lot of his changes felt like-for-like, or made sense within the context of what was happening on the pitch. We've had plenty of last-minute winners in the last season, which indicates normally that subs have, and indeed did make an impact. I don't know the stats, but I'm guessing the percentage of subs making game-changing impacts in the league is pretty low, like the percentage to actually make that impact. I would say that we've probably done maybe above average or better than on that front. I think it's very interesting. I think that he does make his substitutions based on his football philosophy. He has a philosophy that he is going to deploy for the vast majority of the match, and so his substitutions are made to, it seems, always to maintain momentum rather than to necessarily, hugely tactically should. That's not to say he doesn't make tactical shifts. Of course he does. It's a fluid game, and there are little tweaks in touch, but generally, it looks to me like he's always substituting to maintain the level of physical performance that his football requires. I think that's right, and I think Andrew doesn't tend to sit back and see out again, so he'll still want to be going after the next goal, regardless of where we are. I think the reason why we regularly see the sub on 70 minutes is because the intensity will have literally played, and it's not possible to play at that level of intensity without a drop-off after that point. I think there probably is some science behind it, that undoubtedly they'll be measuring how much ground those players are covering. They will know their fitness levels, they'll know when they're starting to tail off, and I'm sure they have a plan based on that, and there is some science in what they're doing. But you're right, Steph. I think he does make in-game tweaks, but generally speaking, the game plan is always to chase more goals, so in the subs to that end, I think. Yeah, I agree with both of you there, and I think, and also, I think his system demands that that happens, as you guys said, but also, I think it's important to make the distinction, and this is something Milo has said a lot over the past season, is he does make like-for-like changes in terms of positions. He does change the shape, which I think people don't realize that he does do, but he does tweak the shape and stuff like that based on what's happening on the pitch. However, I think the distinction, what we're talking about is that the consistency of the play, momentum, yeah, regardless of whether we change shape or not, that pressing, that momentum, that kind of on the front foot is something that he likes to keep circulating. Yeah, he appears to want as little modulation as possible in tempo. I mean, I think his dream would be 97 minutes of total and football with no physical let up at all, and a seamless conveyor belt of subs to come on when the energy is dropping off in the areas, it's dropping off. But I mean, so who do you think did well coming off the bench for end-to-end last season? I think there are two stand-outs. Hypea and Johnson, and in the attacking sense, yeah, the number of times Johnson was best kind of game changer, I would say, the number of times he came on and we'd score shortly afterwards. And Hypea was just ever reliable pretty much when he came off the bench. He didn't have a great season for when he started, but I can't think of many bad games he had when he came off the bench. And I think it's interesting, isn't it? I think Hypea did very well at being able to come on and adjust the pace of a game, which I think is quite difficult to do. And I think Johnson was very good at coming on and being able to impose himself on a game, particularly against a tired defender. And one of the reasons why I've been very keen for us to get a right winger is that I'd like Johnson to be coming off the bench more and impacting. Because I think, again, I think he's better like that than he is starting. But yeah, those are the two stand-outs for me. I suppose maybe honorable mention for Eric Dyer for the Chelsea game, maybe alone. Well, no, I mean, I'm being serious, because I mean, that was an easy situation to come in. He'd been completely ignored. He hadn't even been on the bench for weeks prior to that. And for him to be pretty much out in the cold, and then to come on and come in when everything else is falling to pieces, I think was very, you know, and actually, we started the next game, didn't he? And then he was out in the cold again. So, yeah, really not easy circumstances. But I think, actually, he did very well in that game and showed his experience. But, you know, really, we're talking about, you know, one game, aren't we? 60 minutes or every played in that game. But yeah. But even so, that is his experience and also his mentality to be able to do that as well. I think it takes a lot of, you know, sort of mental fortitude to do that. And I would definitely agree with Johnson and Hobia. Am I right in thinking that Rachelisin had a few where, when he wasn't starting, he came on and he-- He did. And yeah, no, no, that's a good-- I mean, I was going to raise his name as well. I mean, again, maybe not always the most capable in terms of effect, but desire and application was never in doubt at all. Yeah. And I think he scored-- he did score a couple, I think, that kind of got us back in the game, or I think maybe-- I think particularly towards the end of the season, I think he had quite a big impact when he came off the bench. Do you think that options from the bench are one of the areas that we need to prioritize improving this summer? Or, you know, is this just the more general thing with modern football these days where you always need to make sure you're improving your bench? Because the bench is no longer just a bench, it's basically part of your match day. I mean, yeah, I think we do. I mean, if you look at, you know, we've got a good first 11, and then there's a few after that, and it tails off. And the fact that we're kind of really-- we're really saying kind of three players are the ones who had good or consistently good from the bench. And yeah, that's not many. And I think quite often when you look at the bench last season, you know, when you've got players like Brian Hill, you know he doesn't want-- he doesn't want anywhere near the pitch on the bench. I mean, you know, but realistically, you know, Emerson Royal, Brian Hill, I think, who else we could go through. I mean, there's quite a few on there that just weren't going to feature, and they were regularly there, you know, realistically quite a lot of the kids who were on the bench weren't really going to feature. And because of the intensity with which we play, we need those options. I think particularly, you know, in the attacking end, we need those options, and that's lacking. So yeah, we definitely need that. And even more so next season with more games to play, we're going to have to be, you know, a lot more clever with substitutions, because we've got to manage minutes as we're playing two games a week. So yeah, absolutely, it's the big priority for the summer, I think. Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, a lot we chatted about, the system demands it, if we're going to keep that consistency going. I think I believe Ange for Celtic had a good record for game changing subs as well. So if it's something he's known for utilizing wealth, and we need to give him more armoury in that area, you know, and make sure that he's got everything you need to disposable disposal to be able to kind of carry out what his objectives are. And I think improving, like you know, like we said, improving the subs bench means that we're improving the first team as well. Being a very interesting question coming up here, and I'm going to pad it out a little bit to give it a little bit of context. Well, it's a good question, but it requires the context a little further. I mean, is criticisms of managers subs valid, or are we straying into bloke in the pub area when we do it? What I'd also add is, do you think that the average football fan has moved with the idea of what substitutes are, and how important a squad is on match day versus the starting 11? Do you think that the modern fan is smart enough at this point? I don't mean to be sound patronizing, but are we smart enough to understand the difference that it really is a squad game? I'm not going to slag off modern fans, but you know, but I think the issue people have, and you hear this a lot after the game, or they should have brought on so and so on, such and such a time. And in people's head, they see such and such a player coming on, doing something world-class, scoring, winning, this is easy, and they can't divorce their imagination from what actually happened from reality. And I think that's the problem. People think, you know, change X, you know, people look for easy answers, don't they? Change X, Y happens. And that's not, that's just not reality. But the problem is, because it hasn't been tested, people think it's true, and they kid themselves. And I think, you know, you hear it a lot, just bring on so and so, you know, just do this, just do that, easy answers. Christ, there's loads of it around England every game at the moment, isn't there? And yeah, I don't think, I don't think that is the case. So yeah, international football is definitely kind of where we get into bloke and pub analysis on social media. And on that note, I had noted down, I had noted down a whole diatribe about Southgate's use of subs earlier, but that was when it was one-nil down, clearly, I am bloke and pub, you know, but go on. No, no, you should, no, I think there's enough evidence to suggest that fans do have legitimate criticisms about subs or lack of, because I think there are times, you know, in games where we've gone, surely the logical thing is to make that sub. And it doesn't happen. And then it's easy to do it, but lament after the game and go, why didn't he just bring such and such on? Or why didn't he chat? Well, you're watching the game live, especially in your life, but it makes so much sense to bring this person on against that fallback or this person on against that central defender or midfielder, you know. It's so true. It's so true. And, you know, I do think that, you know, many people haven't maybe fully given the quite and quite role of substitutes, the importance it deserves. But equally, how horrible would it be if we all knew the answers to everything? Part of the fun of football is getting it wrong. Part of the fun of football was sitting in the stands. I am, I mean, look, I am often a bloke in a pub. I am the guy in the stands who's sitting there and thinks that because of X amount of decades of watching football, I know more than the experts who have an infinite amount of information at their fingertips. So that does make me a prat who sometimes says, I think you should do this and that and the other. And sometimes I'm right. And most times I'm wrong, but I would hate to have so much information. There's no fun involved anymore. It's part of the fun of it, isn't it? Southgate did do what I kind of started off saying here was that the old way is just chucking on more forwards when you're chasing a game. And that was pretty much the approach today. And then once we got in here, it got ahead, he started taking them off and putting more defensive in my players. I mean, that was the approach. Trigger. How many stars? In the previous game as well, actually, he was just taking off forwards and replacing them like for like pretty much, you know, in trying to chase that game. So, yeah. They're human beings too. That's what's fascinating about managers and what you can never gauge. None of us can. We never know. We don't know what it's like to stand on that touch line with all that energy and all that pressure and all that knowledge at your fingertips. But you have that tiny little gnawing nagging thing in the back of your brain that says don't do it or do it. And it's the same thing that nags at all of us, except they have the power. I look at Gareth Southgate and I sort of feel a bit sorry for him because everything that has worked for him for years and years and years, suddenly it's not really working as well as it did. But then if he'd have done what I wanted him to do today, which was essentially substitute Duke Bellingham because he looked knackered after like, you know, 45 minutes, then we'd all be sitting here talking about how we're out. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's the beauty. And again, another interesting thing to know about Southgate, when I think it was when Rice hit the post and it cut to Southgate and the way he reacted to that and the way he kind of gee'd up the players, it was this weird thing where I was like, he knows something's about to happen. It's always like, yeah, he was like, he was so confident that we were going to win for all this. Yeah. We've all felt that moment. Yeah. And that's why he held back on the subs. But like to your point, Steph, like, I think we don't know what the coaching staff know or see or even hear during the week or in game on the bench that influences their decisions and, you know, and managers say sometimes they were like, I was going to bring such and such. But you know, he didn't fancy it. Or I didn't think he fancied it. You know, it's little things like that, which are quite emotive. But then they've got also all that information behind it as well. So I think that obviously influences their decisions. You know, one of the things as we were putting this pod together, as Milo suggested that we take it on as a topic and we all gleefully agreed, was that we were sent off with some homework, which Milo quite commonly does, which is a good thing. It's great. It's a good thing. And this particular assignment involved a podcast, you know, as a stency from through the athletic. I'm going to hand this to you, Milo. Why don't you why don't you couch it for us? Yeah. So Tifo podcast had an interview with Sami Lander, who is often billed as the world's first substitute coach. He's worked as a Wimbledon Brentford. I think he's consultant now. I think he's doing some work with the USA national team at the moment as well. And it's a really interesting discussion because he talks about some of the approaches he's used and they're kind of the polar opposite of what we were talking about earlier on in terms of kind of chucking on another forward or chucking on a more defensively minded player and a lot more kind of positive in approach. You know, I kind of like my last season as a Sunday league player, I was pretty much a sub every week with good reason in the, you know, can I could turn up and I could play equally bad in any position on the pitch. And you know, that was kind of all that was required. And I didn't mind running the line if the line wasn't there. You know, so it was kind of maybe useful, but you know, no specialist in any sense. And but I was kind of thinking about kind of, you know, his approach when he was talking about that and a lot of this is about kind of empowering players. So you know, first off, you know, the term substitute, you know, I know they're saying that they're on again about kind of traditionally the role is like people who weren't good enough to get in the team. And I'm sure that's what players think when they're told that they're not in the starting 11, but they're on the bench, but trying to empower them and make them think about, you know, they've got a role to play. And if they're called upon, you know, they can be asked to do X, Y, or Z, or Steph? No, absolute such good points. And it brought me back when I first was hearing those points made, I first went back to what Poch said, I pay players to train. That's what I paid them to do. So he wasn't actually saying my pay players to be in the first team to break through the first teams. I pay you to train. So right there, it's in a egalitarian situation. Everyone who's training is a part of my team. So important. And then I was thinking about Jürgen Klopp and how he, you know, you always get the impression that his squads are so important. They increasingly declassifies the delineation between the first 11 and the next bench. And so I loved hearing this guy break that down as an approach so important. And I think that's kind of the interesting point, isn't it? Because it's all about marginal advantage. So similarly, we saw we're kind of throwing coaches and set peace coaches where you can make that small amount of difference, which gets you over the line X number of times. So what he was talking about there, he's got his own metric, which he's developed, which is Xi, which is expected impact, where he measures the changes in Xg. So he resets the Xg for a game to zero when the sub comes on and then measures it from that point. And then you can look at a plus or minus in terms of their impact on the game after coming on. And he uses data quite a lot. So also, he kind of measures how long it takes a player to get into the game. So if you've got 10 minutes left, you've got a player, it takes them 12 minutes to get up to the pace of a game, that's not the person to bring on. And he also talks about kind of different roles. So he has names, 16 different roles, substitute substitution roles that a player could play when they come on. And what he was talking about again is that when a player is coming onto the pitch, they've got an information over, like, they've got, you know, an assistant ref or checking their studs. They've got someone chugging a high power gel in their mouth so they can get some energy in them. They've got all this stuff going on around them. And if you then try and shove a clip forward in their face with a diagram with a pitch and tell them to do something, they're not going to take any of that in. So they rehearse these roles. They've got, you know, kind of a finisher, they've got an energized, so they've got impact players. They've got all these different roles. And what he can do is he can just talk to the player when they're coming on and say, I want you to do X or Y. I want you to do this role and they know what they're doing. And the other thing he was saying is that he sits with the subs as they're on the bench and he talks them through the game. They're talking about it tactically. They're talking about where their strengths and weaknesses in the opponent, who's having success and who's not. So they're in that mindset when they come on or if they're asked to come on, rather than, you know, as you were saying, Steph, you know, kind of play fighting on the bench or pissing about or going to talk to their mate who's in the opposing team or, you know, kind of walking down the touchline and, you know, kind of walking back again and the stuff we've all seen happen loads and loads of times. So I found the whole thing just really, really interesting. It's a lot of stuff I haven't thought about before. And, you know, kind of just kind of professionalizing that and actually having some decent measures on it and making it easier for players and having a more positive spin on it. I think it's you saying, Steph, a lot of it's kind of stuff you kind of think, well, you know, they've got data for everything. Why isn't this standard, I suppose? You know, two players that we've mentioned in the last season at Spurs, Brian Hill and Pierre Emile Heuerbier actually illustrated this chap's point perfectly. Brian Hill, a little more in the sense of a young player sometimes will come off the bench and just want to impress and just want to do things and make things happen by themselves and not necessarily play a role or, you know, a desired function that the manager might have. That might be just how they're wired. I think we'd all agree that Brian Hill was always struck as one of those players who feels that he has to be industrious and create a moment. What was that crazy game? What was that crazy game he had where he was trying to dribble out from his own box? I can't remember, but that must have been under Conte and he had an absolutely batshit crazy game off the bench. I can't remember what it was. And that's the wiring. And then you've got Pierre Emile Heuerbier, who is absolutely captain reliable. I mean, in the sense of you can ask him to do a job, it's interesting you bring up Conte there. I do think the manager does have a role in how this happens and they have to know the player they're bringing on and they have to help prepare that player to an extent. So, I mean, I wonder Conte probably didn't pay very much attention to, well, I say this, it's assumption and I shouldn't do that. But it didn't feel like there was much love between Conte and who, you know what I mean? Not much information or flow, if you will. It's very important. I think the point about Hill and, you know, I think this is true of a lot of, say, young players or fringe players is that when they come on, as you said, they want to make an impact and they're almost chasing it. And, you know, when he's, you know, when this guy is talking about roles, if you want someone to come in and help you see out a game, you don't want someone chasing the ball all over the place because they're leaving gaps behind them. And, but I think from the player's point of view, if they think that they need to make an impression in order to try and get a place in the team, then, you know, that's, that's quite difficult for them. If you then say, actually, you're going to impress me more. If you play more conservatively because that's what the game state calls for, or just do this very specific thing in this very specific part of the pitch, you know, in Brian Hill's case, you know, stay right up there, stay on the shoulder of that man and I want you to beat him with the ball every time it comes over. Whereas, you know, he's trying to, you know, he's trying to impress someone by going, manage up by going everywhere. That's, yeah, very different roles, aren't they? You know, we're talking about young players. That was what made Jamie Donnelly's appearance at Eastlands last season. So, so memorable to me. He didn't actually do anything particularly brilliant, but he fell, you know, he bought a foul. And what was the best young substitute that you remember in the last 10 years? Surely, Harry Kane showing up for a whole traffic and absolutely blooping that ball. Yeah, yeah. Brilliant. But it's intelligence. Yeah, I don't know. I think I'm thinking at the time you've arrived. Yes, but he is in-game intelligence and it's such a thing. I mean, he's obviously someone who would have been hungry to score, but he obviously knew that that was going to happen anyway in his career and he would just do what was being asked. So, it's such an important thing. Yeah, I think that the first thing, thank you, Milo, for sort of bringing that pod to our attention because it was fascinating. And, you know, the kind of my takeaways of it, one is that listening to this chap talk about it, I was like, why, how come this hasn't been done before? Because we really, you know, you know, and he said it himself about hitting hope subs and that's kind of what the role was for quite a while. And, you know, he was looking to change that. And also just how the game has such fine margins now. So, of course, you, that is a very important aspect of a match, you know, bringing what subject you're going to bring on and bringing on subject who are going to follow the instructions to the way you want to. So, yeah, you know, that was fascinating. But one of the things he talked about, which I thought was amazing, was he was talking about a central defender who was at the club, who wasn't getting game time. And he was saying he had to manage kind of not in his expectations, but he also had to manage him in terms of like keeping him motivated, keeping his spirits up and stuff like that. And one, I think it was a game they were playing where he, this central defender was a sub. And at half time, he, you know, he could see he didn't want his head to drop or anything like that. He said, right, I need you to defend in the same way the opposition team are defending with our winger who's also a sub at half time and just taking through his paces in case he needs to come on. And it transpired that that winger came on and changed the game because he followed it almost the same automations that the, you know, the opposition team were doing. He got around the player. And I think I can't remember if he scored or if he assisted. I think he scored. And then he, but the, this chap just went straight to the central defender at the end of the game and went, that's your contribution. You won that, yeah. You won that game. It's very similar to when you're coaching kids and you're trying to teach them to run off the ball for each other. And if someone runs off the ball for another kid creates the space, the goal scored, you kind of make sure that everyone goes to the kid who made the off the ball, run the didn't touch the ball as well because they're as important apart. I loved hearing that. I think it's so important to change the psychology of the quote unquote substitute because again, we're getting to, we're getting back to definitions and they're not, they're not just plug-ins or feelings, whether they're playing for five minutes or 55 or 85, whatever, extremely important moments, win matches, moments, you only need to be on the field for a minute. But, and if you've prepared to be on the field for that minute and you're part of it, you're a vital part, teddy sharing them, they have to tell you that all day long. Yeah. Well, I would say I was thinking when we're prepping for this one's like about some of the ones we've had recently, do you remember Sonny's hat trick against 30-minute hat trick against Leicester? Yeah. Season four last and say the season before that, when Stephen Bergwin came on, also at Leicester, that 11 minutes to play. And yeah, he got two, didn't he, in the 95th and 97th minute. But what a brilliant example. You look at Stephen Bergwin and I'm not entirely convinced that he's ever going to be an elite, unquote, starting 11 player anywhere. But my word, he could have been an elite game changer if deployed in this sort of more modern approach and role with the right nurturing and the right appreciation of his talents in that particular deployment. And you're absolutely right. What he did at Leicester that night was brilliant, absolutely brilliant. And it was a flash. And to an extent, you could say the same for Lucas Mora. Lucas Mora had some of that in him as well. Of course, with Lucas Mora, it was a little bit more between a rock and a half place. But so maybe sticking with Bergwin as the clear example, you imagine that that was a Monday night and we recorded a pod straight afterwards. And I think there was going to just doom and gloom amongst in the chat as we look at it. Oh, God, I really not, you know, we're going to go and talk about this game. And then it's kind of like, wow, yeah, we're going to talk about this game. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, imagine if you had, and again, this is where, and you know, I know the world divides over Jürgen Klopp, but I think nobody can deny that he absolutely makes sure that every player who suits up to appear on match day is considered a vital part. And I just wonder, you imagine if he'd have had a player like Bergwin or his disposal or what he would have done. I mean, he kept Diva Karigi at the club at Liverpool for several years longer than he really should have been. I think by nature, the fact that Diva Karigi felt wanted and felt important. And let's face it, Diva Karigi's, you know, important moments amount to two really at Liverpool that I could remember the Barcelona game and then sadly against us. So you wonder there are players, aren't there? And look back through our time, and Bergwin's a great example. I mean, I suppose it does lead us to this sort of concluding question, you know, that, you know, everything in this pod that you heard, you know, I suppose we're agreeing that these are the sorts of things that we really would love to see even more of at Spurs, right? Yeah, I don't think we necessarily need to bring in a sub coach, but I wouldn't, I think it'd be quite good if one of our, you know, backroom team was assigned to that role and worked with those, with the players who were on the fringes and worked on this kind of stuff. These seem like common sense. It was the direction of football generally, but this seems like a, you know, sensible approach to me because, you know, you know, that you're going to make subs in a game, you know that you're going to, sometimes you're going to be chasing or sometimes you're going to need to kind of steady things up a bit or, you know, you know, you know, these things are going to happen. And, but the mindset of those players who might be coming on to have that impact, aren't necessarily going to be involved in the 11 who are training together, you know, day in, day out. So I think it makes sense that you take this kind of approach and you treat it as a specialism. I think, you know, the other point he makes is, you know, he says that, you know, goalkeeper coaches have been accepted. Yeah, that's the first specialist coaching role. You know, is this any different, really? No, I would say it isn't. I think that's a really good sort of point. Well, made, and I think now when you look at that, that we, you know, I talked about five margins just a moment ago, I think if we, if we look at it in the context of like how, how fine they are, it's a bit like if you look at athletics, like 100 meters printers, they're fine margins between winning gold and winning or getting a world record compared to finishing fourth could be 0.2, two hundredths of a second. And I think we're getting to that point in football where these fine margins are that fine. You bring a great metaphor when you talk about the Olympics. So 400 meters men's relay, you know, you talk about it as four great sprinters, not one, and then three who fill in or three, and then one who finished it. There's four. And what I do think is interesting both about what was said in this pod and also the approach that we seem to be taking with our signings and even two of the players we've discussed today that we're interested in. These are the sorts of signings and the sort of players that seem like they're being designed to knit together to form a young hungry squad that wants to work for each other. And also that can do several things as needed in-game or pre-planned for the game, you know, by the specialists who are obviously watching and looking with these numbers. So it feels like we're on that path already. And it really sort of makes me think I've been banging the drum for as a, I mean, for a long time. And I would. I'd love, I'd love him at the club. But, you know, if we're in a place where we need to be building a squad that can work with this efficiency and this hunger and this energy and this youth and be an 18-19 man squad on every day, you know, maybe this is the sensible and smart way to go about it. And I should care sit on the sofa and enjoy it. You know, yeah, I think that's a great point. I think that they're very much, this seems to be the future of the game. But I also won't wholeheartedly dismiss get on the pitch and fucking run around a bit as well, because I think that that still has a place in certain games. Well, energy is everything. And he does bring up that point. I love the fact that this guy did talk about how, you know, in my way, I've used the word emotions. I don't think he used that quite. But, you know, you don't, you can't disregard it because the fragility or mental strength of a player determines whether they can play the role of being a substitute, whether they can come on in 78 minutes and be an effective for 12, or are they going to be only effective for seven minutes because they need four minutes to warm up? Well, that's no good. Is it to you if you're playing in that type margins? So yeah, there's always going to be this wonderful human element as well, you know, that's necessary. But I think a lot of this work was grounded in that as well. It was around trying to make it, you know, a positive out of something that's viewed as negative. It was about the kind of mental state. It was trying to get the players mentally tuned into the game rather than pissing about and, you know, warming up properly because, you know, if you don't warm up properly, you're going to get yourself injured because you can't, you can't go out cold and then race at, you know, kind of the speeds, you know, modern footballs play that because you'll put a hamstring, you know, you can't do it. I mean, to that point, and this is something I think I first thought about during the Chelsea game last season, I do think we're going to increasingly see it become a part of the touchlines in the Premier League. I think you're going to see things like warm up bicycles, and I think you're going to see various things like that where, you know, you've got certain players who need to keep their hamstrings warm all the time. So they're just sitting gently pedal through a game. Some will be sitting in heated seats. He raised heated seats. All of that conditioning is going to become increasingly important, isn't it? But the other thing is, is that you don't have heated seats for the opposition. So at Spurs ground, our players got heated seats. The opponents happened. Yeah, these are marginal advantages, aren't they? Yeah. You know, would you be able to take your exercise bike on the road with you if you're going to another ground, or do you see the opposite? Is this home advantage? Well, in some grounds, you wouldn't be able to, would you? You wouldn't have a space for it. How do you do that kind of stuff? You know, that's why you see them running up and down the touchline, because you can take it anywhere. But, you know, there will be things there that put the away team at a disadvantage, because it's designed in such a way, you know, it's kind of like this, the kind of the subs equivalent of putting them in a porter cab, the change, getting them to change in a porter cab in, or, you know, yeah. It's interesting, though, isn't it? I mean, here we are, we're sort of spit balling a little bit off the back of what was being discussed in this pod. I mean, you know, I'm already thinking, yeah, you probably have, you know, specialist subs conditioning coaches, whose sole work is to keep subs conditioned through the 95 minutes that they might be needed. That means making sure that they're not overworked, but making sure they're not underworked. And increasingly, the science there has got to be, well, I mean, it's got to be there. We know it is, and I'm sure that the numbers are being crunched by data people far smarter than me. And we're going to see it coming into the game. And again, with the impact, the amount of games that are being played, you know, that the amount of load on these players, it has to be, it has to happen this way. And the substitute's almost no more. I mean, it's like you're part of the team. I think if you look at look at sports where they have rolling subs, that's probably where you need to look on those kinds of ideas, because if you're coming on and off, on and off, you've got to stay warm, you've got to make sure, you know, because you don't when you're going to be needed, and the conditioning on that and they warm up is a lot more intense than saying football where you're going to come on for 20 minutes or whatever it is. But you're going to know broadly when you're going to be kind of be called upon most of the time. Yeah, I really think stuff like exercise bikes. I think because they already use it in like the NFL, don't they? And various other American sports. I think it will. I think it's a great point because I think it will come to the Premier League. It'll be interesting to see who the first club is that does it. And also, I think there'll be a bit of a reaction, maybe a negative reaction to it at first, because it's not how we do things, you know. But then I think it will just it will end up becoming one of those things, which is just a completely standardized way of warming up at subs. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's been an excellent conversation. And as much as I would love to have it continue for another half an hour or so, I know this show needs to be edited. So we should probably bring it to a close. But yeah, I mean, exciting to discuss it. It's part of the way things are going and good for it. I think we'd all agree with that. So yeah, thanks very much, Shaps. That was a lot of fun. Just a step. Yeah, thank you. And folks, we will be back next week and every week through the summer to bring you an hour and a bit of Spurs and that and analysis of other managerial chests. Thanks for joining us. And we'll see you next week. [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]