Coffee House Shots
Isabel Hardman's Sunday Roundup - 23/06/24
[Music] Hello and welcome to Coffee House Shots, the spectators daily politics podcast. I'm Isabelle Hardman and this is the Sunday Round Up. Rishi Sunak has ended up in more controversy this week over a scandal about allegations of betting on the election date. Multiple conservatives and their associates are being investigated by the gambling commission following some unusual betting patterns. This morning it emerged that the Tories Chief Data Officer Nick Mason was part of the inquiry. On Sky News, Trevor Phillips asked Home Secretary James Cleverley if this was an example of his party's moral decay. I promised to talk two weeks ago about the moral mission of your government to reform welfare. Let's talk about morality. Is it a sign of the Conservative Party's moral decay that some of your colleagues were more interested in stuffing their own pockets by gambling on the day to the election than on helping hard-pressed families hit by the cost of living? Well, I'm not in any way going to defend people that are placed bets on that. There is an investigation by the gambling commission and we have been, you know, told very, very clearly that we are not to discuss the investigations, but the broad point is that it's not just one or two people. But as I say, this is pretty thoroughgoing. There's a lot of them. As far as one can make it, that's not my understanding. That's not my understanding. My understanding is that it is a small number of individuals and a number of very highly placed individuals. But as I say, I'm not defending the actions. It is inappropriate, but the gambling commission has got a role to play. It is playing that role. Yeah, we are. We have been told that we should not discuss the details of this investigation. And so I'm going to abide by the instructions of the gambling commission. OK. You're confident, by the way, that none of your colleagues was involved in any of this. Your cabinet colleagues. Well, as I say, I've got no reason to believe any of them were at all. As I say, the gambling commission has made it very, very clear we are not meant to discuss this. OK. And so I'm going to abide by the instructions. Cleverly was also asked to respond to a recording of Conservative aid James Sunderland describing the Rwanda policy as crap. Of your aides, whose job it has been for two years to help you get the government's plan to send migrants to Rwanda fully enacted, was recorded, giving this opinion about the scheme. Let's listen to what he had to say. Nobody's got the cameras on over there, put them on. It causes crap. OK. It's crap. But it's not about the policy. It's about the effect of the policy. This is second and third order effects. In Australia, for example, I assume the policy had a devastating effect. There is no doubt at all that when this first starts to take off, it will send such a shockwave across the channel that begins with the government. So the policy is crap, according to one of your own team. Yeah, but actually, and I'm glad you played, and thank you. I think it's important that you played the whole answer. And I know James has worked incredibly hard on the policy, getting the safety of the Rwanda bill through. And whilst the opening words were clearly designed to, you know, shock and grab the attention of the audience, the point he made was absolutely right in the latter part of the quote, which is the effect, the deterrent effect, on the people smuggling gangs and the people they're trying to make money from, is what we are seeking to achieve. And he's absolutely right that in other places where that deterrent has been put in place, most famously Australia has been having effect. And indeed, a number of other European countries are exploring third-country processing arrangements similar to Rwanda. And the only people seemingly that are heading in the other direction is labour. So whilst a lot of other countries are now exploring plans like Rwanda, labour are the ones saying they're going to scrap it, even though the deterrent effect is already starting to have an impact. Well, we come to the deterrent effect in a second, because actually the numbers are extremely high right now. But one of your own team told a friendly private audience, when he didn't realise he was being recorded, that he thought the policy was crap. Yeah, but we've just heard the point he made. And as I said, he clearly said that to grab the attention of the audience. Why would you do that with a private, friendly audience of conservatives and reporters? So, as I said, I'm glad you played the full quote, because the full quote made it absolutely clear that James, I know how committed he is to this policy, because he worked tirelessly with the rest of the team to try and get the bill through the house so we could implement it. He said, you know, and people can really listen to it, when the flights take off, it will send a shockwave across the channel, the deterrent will dissuade the people smuggling gangs and dissuade the people that they're praying upon to make money. And that is the point, he said, it's the effect. Now, why he picked the word crap, I don't particularly know. But he made the point that when those flights take off, and they will only take off under the conservatives, there will be, I think the use of the word shockwave across the channel, and that is exactly the point. Laura Koonsberg asked Shadow Education Secretary, Bridget Phillips, and to clarify Labour's position on government guidance surrounding gender identity in schools. There are lots of things that schools in the 2020s have to grapple with. One of them has been the concept of gender identity. Now, the government published some draft guidance, which included banning teaching the idea of the concept of gender identity. It's due to start being used later in the year. If you win the election, will that still happen? I'm afraid that, just as I'm not sure that's quite right, and that the government published draft guidance, which was subject to consultation. The consultation is closed at the point at which the election was called, that was being considered in terms of the responses. But the expectation was that this would be brought in later in the year. The principal of guidance, I think, is an important one. That's what I hear from school leaders across the country. They want clarity on how to manage what is a sensitive and difficult area for them. I think what we do need to see on this, we absolutely do need to see guidance. The Labour government, if we win the trust of the British people, will make sure that happens. But let's make sure that children's well-being is at the heart of this. Let's stop this being a political football. This is our children's lives, their well-being. It's too important to make this a culture wars issue on the front pages of newspapers. Let's take a more responsible approach, give schools the clear guidance that they need, and make sure that our young people are supportive as well. But my question is, what would your guidance be? What do you believe teachers should be advised to do? Because what the Conservative government has suggested they would do is ban the teaching of the concept of gender identity. So I believe that what you would tell schools to do too. Many aspects of the draft had good and straightforward principles in it. Other elements of it, I think, drifted far too much into partisan and unnecessary language that I think makes it harder for schools to navigate this. So if I were education secretary, I'd want to look at all of the responses that we've received to the consultation. I know that, for example, school leaders have flagged areas that they feel are still outstanding within the guidance. We would want to look at that, do it responsibly, work with parents, with young people, and with the profession to get this right. This has been, ministers have been rowing about this for months and months. That is not the way to deal with this subject. But I wanted to press you on this point, because it's a very sensitive issue, and it's of great importance to some people, and some teachers have felt very anxious about this. So you say some elements of the Plan are OK, some are not, but would you ditch the ban on teaching the concept of gender identity? There are trans people within society, and their existence should be recognised. So you wouldn't touch that? This drifts, I think, sometimes into a slightly bizarre conversation. There are trans people. They have a right for their existence to be recognised. Many people, many trans people, are vulnerable and are deserving of support. Alongside that, we've got to make sure that schools have got clear guidance about how best to support children and young people, that are experiencing distress and issues around their well-being. That is not well-served. By ministers picking fights, seeking headlines, let's take a more responsible approach, let's take the heat out of it, let's do this properly and seriously. Nora Koonzberg also questioned Scottish First Minister John Swinney over allegations that Scottish National Party staff have been using stamps paid for by public money as a part of their election campaign. I just want to start by asking about a developing story today. Now viewers should know it's against the rules for taxpayers' cash to be used in campaigning. But there have been allegations over the last week that S&P staff members have been using stamps paid for with public money for campaign purposes. And the mail on Sunday today says someone in your office was involved in discussions about doing that allegedly using material paid for by the public purse. What did you say to that? Well, I've obviously discussed this with my staff and I've been assured that no parliamentary stamps that have been provided by Parliament have been used to support election purposes and obviously the Parliament has said that they're looking into this matter and obviously will provide Parliament with any assistance that they require as they undertake those inquiries. One WhatsApp message reported this morning sent to an S&P group chat. Your assistant wrote, "The stamp fairy is very useful when it comes to campaigns." Who's the stamp fairy? Well, we campaign on a regular basis in my capacity as a member of Parliament so we're engaging with the public on a countless range of different issues. So I think these are sort of humorous remarks made in a WhatsApp channel. And what's important is the reshoots that I've had that parliamentary stamps have not been used for election purposes. It might sound like quite a small issue and maybe that's just a humorous message. But there's a hugely important principle here about public money being used for campaigning purposes by political parties. Are you completely sure that your party has not been using any public money to fund your election campaign? I'm confident of that. We've always been engaging in a fundraising campaign to support the election campaign. It's been supported by the many members that we have around about the country. The Scottish National Party is fortunate that we have the largest membership of any political party in Scotland. Indeed, we've got more members than all the other parties combined. And those members have been supporting our election campaign and enabling us to have the resources available to us generated and raised from within our party membership base to support us in our campaigning activity. And finally, Unite General Secretary Sharon Graham said Labour had one shot to convince workers to vote for their party rather than seeking solace elsewhere. In the end, if Keir Starmer gets the big majority that you say you want, why should he pay the blindest bit of notice to you? Well, first of all, I think he will because I meet Keir Starmer and he understands that I have got a job to do. I say many, many times in conversations with Labour, I am here to fight for workers. That is the primary job that I have. But also, I think that if you put your fingers in your ears, if you put your fingers in your ears to workers, we could be walking ourselves down a line where those people go somewhere else to seek solace. There is one shot for Labour to get this right. We've seen the polls and how volatile the polls are. Less than five years ago, a short time ago, there was 80% majority for the Tories. That has now moved over completely. So there's one shot to get this right because we can see that there may be difficulties ahead. When you say they're somewhere else for them to go, where are you talking about? They're not going to go to conservatives. Are you talking reform? Well, we can already see. I mean, I don't think it was coincidence that Nigel Farage launched his manifesto in Murther TV, one of the poorest parts of the UK. And I think Labour have got one shot. We can see the volatility of the electorate, one shot to really say to workers in communities, we are with you. We can see the pain that you're going through. And to say to them, to wait for growth, to say to them to wait for growth, it is not quick enough. They are on their knees. They need Labour to come in and put their arms around them. And I really want Labour to do that. There are some fantastic things in the manifesto. I'm supporting Labour, but we need to do more. That's all for this week. I'm Isabel Hardman, and this podcast was produced by Joe Biddell-Brill. Don't forget to subscribe to the Coffee House Shots podcast on the iTunes store. And if you enjoyed this podcast, do subscribe to our daily evening blend email. It's a free roundup of all the political news each day, along with analysis and the diary on what to expect next. Just go to spectator.co.uk/blend. Thanks for listening, and do join us again next week. [Music]